Revision as of 20:31, March 4, 2010 by Caridin (Talk | contribs)

| User:Loleil


Hi again. I've been thinking and this is what I've come up with:

1. I realised I hadn't wished you a happy new year. Happy New Year!

2. Apart from formatting and stuff like that I think the wiki is nearly complete. Your opinion?

3. Is there a reason why theres no page for the post-coronation ceremony. I'd be happy to do it. (If there is one then call me a fool)

4. What's your opinion on the no DLC items policy for Awakening?

Yours sincerely, The Warden of The Dales

Morrigan and Leliana question

I romanced Morrigan, but then she broke it off and whe remained close friends. I then pursued Leliana's favor(much easier than Morrigan) and gained it. We romanced and stayed together. What would happen in the epilogue? Neither are "hardened".

You should as this question here in game discussion forum. There is a lot more people on the forum than on Loleil's talk page. I do not know the answer to this question. Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 14:13, February 17, 2010 (UTC)


How are you doing your signature so it looks like this {{User:Loleil|Loleil}} Is this done automatically when you sign pages or do you have a macro? Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 14:11, February 17, 2010 (UTC)


Special:Contributions/ Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 17:01, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Thank You

Thanks for answering my question

MasterATG 20:34, February 17, 2010 (UTC)MasterATG

Spoiler and onlyinclude tags

I had to revert Dwarf Commoner Origin Page, because when I added the around the transformer for:

Ico Quest Dwarf Commoner Origin, to work.

Cause when I add Spoiler and <onlyinclude> the spoiler appears blank... what is this, why does this happen do you know? I am going to see if I can fix it but this is odd.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 05:40, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I think you have something there, Categories attached to the QuestTransformer are messing up templates that are being used, or something along those line this makes sense because I had to add categories for Tierrie for Items because it was causing issues having the categories attached to the transformers, I might have to manually input the category to each article and remove it from the transformer, to fix this.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 05:51, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
Hmm, that didn't work, curses!  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 06:00, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
Woot, it was the external link, I guess spoilers, includeonly with external links don't work together... hmm, odd.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 06:03, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
Srsly, :D  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 06:08, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
Just spotted this whilst I was leaving a message and thought I'd throw everything up in the air Smiley. Do we really need the spoiler tags on the origin story pages? Don't the headings make it clear? To me a section heading of "Plot" or "Walkthrough" is a clear enough indication that there are spoilers ahead, and I agree with Loleil's point on the forum that we should be limiting use of the spoiler tags to places where people might not expect to come across spoilers. Zoev talk 14:21, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
And on a similar topic, I just spotted that practically the whole content of Captured! is now in a spoiler tag. I think I must have misunderstood - I've actually been removing spoiler tags from a few quest pages on the basis that any quest page is going to have spoilers and had thought that was to be the policy with the potential exception of major plot points that people may not be expecting to see. If I'd been changing Captured!, therefore, I'd have just taken the old tag off and not put a new one on at all. Help! Have I got the wrong end of the stick? Zoev talk 17:23, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Yikes! Seems like I missed a lot

Sorry I've not been around much for the last week, but I'm back now and will try to check in at least daily. I've a bit of catching up to do, though! I'm going to make my first priority completing documentation of Project Genitivi so we can agree an implementation roadmap between us, and then plough through the wiki forum and catch up on any discussions that I should be aware of. But if you think there's anything urgent I should be looking at, then please do give me a shout. Zoev talk 14:16, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Ta for the breakdown! I have had a very quick look through the forums to try to catch up - I realised I'd be pretty useless as an admin without a bit of a grip on the hot topics. Though I confess the approval forum confused me thoroughly, so I'm not sure what the final template looks like. Not that that matters - with both that and the new locations approach I'll happily sit back and see what comes out in the end, then help with the implementation. Oh, and yes it does sound as though we're on the same wavelength with respect to spoilers - phew! - and the draft policy statement looks damn fine to me. I'm going to be having a quiet weekend (literally - I have laryngitis and can't speak at the moment!) so will aim to get Project Genitivi properly documented by the end of Sunday so we can start divvying. Zoev talk 00:02, February 19, 2010 (UTC)


Shouldn't it be listed in the side menu under gameplay? Cheats ?? Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 05:07, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think cheating is an important part of the game or the wiki so I'm sure people can find it by searching. I'm not really sure what the purpose of that page is either, looks like it should be a disambiguation page rather than a full article. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 05:40, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Merging 'Tank' w/ 'Tanking: An Alternative Approach' - Problems and a Possible Solution

Hello again,

After some careful consideration, I don't think it's a productive idea to merge 'Tanking: An Alternative Approach' with 'Tank'. The starting assumptions, as already stated, are just way too different, down to the most basic level of the very definition of the term 'tanking' (the author seems to think tanking is synonymous to mitigating/evading damage, and even refers to 'solo tanking' [sic!], which is an oxymoron). I'll be unable to merge the articles (I'm usually quite decent at formulating ideas verbally, even in English -- so it's more due to objective content incompatibility than to my personal shortcomings, I think), unless I'm given a total carte blanche to alter the original 'Tank' article, which would be kind of disrespectful to its author+contributors, I suppose. My suggestion is to start a brand new 'Tanking' article, which will include both my original 'Alternative Approach' article and some essential material from 'Tank' rephrased by me. I'll also throw in some additional references and, of course, add a link to the old 'Tank' article. Objections? :) IN 05:07, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

If you feel they are too incompatible to merge you can start a new page. However, I remain hesitant about allowing multiple guides dedicated to the same subject. Depending on the outcome of the pages I would likely only leave one tanking article in the wiki proper, and send any other pages to the forums or talk page. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 05:40, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
All right. I'll drop you a message when I'm finished. IN 05:47, February 19, 2010 (UTC)


Hehe, Thanks, :D I had no idea I was even close till last night, then I went 'oh wow', lol.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 06:19, February 19, 2010 (UTC)


What browser do you use Miss Amazing Admin™? By the way, congratulations on hitting the big five oh oh oh. -- tierrie talk contr 08:42, February 19, 2010 (UTC)


What's your opinion on the Forum:Approval approval templates that are being worked on? I like the concept. But, I feel like there's something kind of messy about it. I can't put my finger on it - is there too many styles? Or is the companion pictures with +/- in it inherently ugly? Do me a favor. Sit back and look at it for a while and send me the first thoughts that come to your mind. -- tierrie talk contr 20:32, February 19, 2010 (UTC)


One thing that has always bothered me about the sidebar is the Dragon Age Series link. Its lengthy. I removed the Dragon Age prefix so that the subcategories would be shorter. I think it results in a more concise category. What do you think of this? -- tierrie talk contr 20:43, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

*Dragon Age: Origins|Dragon Age
**Dragon Age: Origins|Origins
**Downloadable Content|Origins - DLC
**Dragon Age: Origins - Awakening|Origins - Awakening
**Dragon Age Journeys|Journeys
**Dragon Age: The Stolen Throne|Novel - The Stolen Throne
**Dragon Age: The Calling|Novel - The Calling

rogue archer

Well this is my 4th character of the game and to be honest the weakest so far (lv8) I've read that dex should be upto 35 and the rest for cunning. But I've noticed that arrows miss quite alot and dex increases chances to hit. That's why I'm confused where to dump my stat points. Any suggestions?

  • Rogue archer begins to shine in later mid-game+. Until level 14, it's a weak character. As far as stat distribution is concerned: it is advisable to go full cunning with enough dexterity to equip Tier 7 longbows with gear/Fade bonuses (do your math). Recommended specializations: Duelist/Bard. Key talents: Lethality (obviously), Dueling (an answer to your early-game hit:miss ratio problems), The Tainted Blade, Aim, Song of Courage, Feign Death. Recommended Combat Skills: Trap-Making (level III will suffice). It is also a very good idea to have Shale in your party. That's a tiny sample of cunning build Duelist/Bard archer + Shale synergy: Stats and gear demonstrated, so be sure to pause the video. IN 12:03, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism or just very bad manners? :)

Take a look at this guy's two 'contributions':

As far as I am concerned, he's not a mindless vandal, but a vandal nevertheless. I've posted a warning on his talk page and reverted both of his 'edits'. Maybe that's genuinely his idea of contributing to the wiki, but I doubt is somehow :) IN 04:28, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

P. S.: If you consider my reaction disproportionate, just drop him a more 'politically correct' message. I happen to dislike destructive edits coupled with idiotic commentary. IN 04:33, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't class this as vandalism myself. I'm not particularly thrilled with the racial stereotyping in the Sophia Dryden trivia, so I can see why that was removed. The trivia in the darkspawn article was in the wrong place, and not entirely convincing so I again I can see why it was removed. The biggest problem is the lack of an edit summary for darkspawn, and the rude summary given for Sophia Dryden. It's summaries like that rather than the edits themselves that I have a problem with. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 04:51, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
'Racial stereotyping'? Loleil, are you serious? It was my hypothesis, actually. And a perfectly sound one, at that. I am Jewish, born and raised in ex-USSR, so I know for a fact what 'racial stereotyping' really is. A somewhat academical commentary on Jewish onomastics surely does not qualify as such. IN 05:04, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
The comments on names were fine, it was the comment about how being involved in trading made them more "Jewish" that I didn't like. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 05:07, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
Well, that's more or less a historically established fact the Jews were involved almost exclusively in trading activities in Medieval Europe (not that they had much choice, of course). Next time, I'll add a full bibliography :) Actually, my intent was to highlight the historical parallel... But if you feel this way, it may be representative of how other people perceive this comment, so I'll just remove it from all Dryden articles. IN 05:20, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
Done. IN 05:28, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
It can be kind of hard to get across complex ideas in the short space that trivia allows. It's quite possible that I'm overreacting (I spent a depressing semester looking at racism including plenty directed towards Jewish peoples), but I appreciate you taking my reaction into consideration Smiley. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 05:33, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
You are welcome :) Sometimes, it's not easy to predict what American/Canadian-born people could potentially find offensive (mentalité differences are natural, there's nothing wrong with that), so I suppose it was a correct solution to our little problem. IN 05:49, February 21, 2010 (UTC)


Godlygamer, you may want to block this user.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 04:40, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

Done and done! Friendship smallLoleil Talk 04:51, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
'Elves in Thedas are not immortal, but they do give good handjobs' was actually funny. In an absurd way. Also, his punctuation is (somewhat surprisingly) always 100% grammatically correct! Not that I suggest to unblock him :) IN 05:56, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
Hehe if only that user had used their grammatical powers for good, not evil. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 06:00, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

Can we lock Gifts to registered users only, we have repeat multiple vandals hanging gout there.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 02:00, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Strategy Pages

The situation with those is peculiar, at the very least. On one hand, we have completely unnecessary pages like Anvil of the Void (Strategy). On the other hand, there are no separate strategy pages for Branka or Caridin. Maybe a thorough revision is due? Personally, I'd keep a number of separate strategy pages to the minimum - Occam's razor rarely hurts, and move the rest of the content to the Talk pages of the respective main entries. The list of 'necessary' strategy pages (=really challenging battles) is very short, in fact: Ogre (Tower of Ishal), Mage's Treasure (Brecilian Forest Revenants), Branka, Caridin, Ser Cauthrien (pre-Fort Drakon), Flemeth, High Dragon, Gaxkang, Archdemon. That's it. Frankly, I'd remove Archdemon from the list, too, if not for his big boss status. Noblesse oblige, I guess :) Of course, this manageable number of pages should be cleaned up to reach a reasonably high quality level. I can volunteer for the job, as long as I have your permission to do it. IN 10:38, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

I think the reason pages like that have strategy pages, is because its related to what me and Loleil are working on, which is cleaning up location pages removing/moving unneed information to that article. Like having the Location pages with location information only (no approval changes, no battle strategies and minimal quest walkthroughs). Moving quest information to the quest pages, keeping Locations about locations, creatures and characters are more a home to strategies but don't always work for every situation or battle, and if the article gets consumed by a strategy it gets moved to its strategy page. We are admits tidying articles (at least, I am helping with the locations), and having a 'strategy' on the Location page Anvil of the Void just will not do, and I assume, if the strategy consumes the article, it could be the same thing about the quests articles.
But of course there is always room for clean up and improvement, I just don't think we can sweep all strategy info you and I feel isn't needed to the talk page, it might be a case by case scenario but who says someone won't come in and fill it in if they don't see it there, right? Maybe if Loleil can help with setting guidelines, and maybe eventually an article policy' what to have' and 'not have' on certain types of articles but there will always be those users, who do what they want and we clean up after.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 11:00, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
I can see your point regarding moving 'unnecessary' strategies to Talk pages. You are probably right in suggesting someone else will just start a new Strategy page on the same topic if he won't find one. As far as cleaning up is concerned: there is such a huge number of unnecessarily duplicated suggestions on every strategy page I've been to, not to speak of extremely bad wording and faulty grammar... There is also a matter of, pardon my French, either extremely trivial or, well, outright stupid strategies proposed. I don't think someone could possibly find certain hints you can only sum up as 'the High Dragon deals a freaking lot of damage, so be careful' very helpful. IN 11:31, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
I think we have a somewhat uneven spread of strategy pages because the original new page template had section for strategy. Several pages soon overflowed with suggestions and due to the fact that they were personal opinion rather than fact about a character or creature we decided to give those pages with long strategy sections their own page and work on removing brief strategy suggestions from other pages. Also as Hollowness mentioned we are working hard on making sure that walkthrough elements don't creep into places they don't belong.
I certainly agree that there is substantial room for improvement in terms of written content and would be very grateful if you would like to begin the tidy up. As to exactly what should get a strategy page, I would certainly like as few as possible, I'm not sure how to quantify what gets a page.
Here's a shot at something official sounding:
"Strategy pages are reserved for the most difficult bosses in the game, so do not every boss warrants one. Also please remember that the same spelling and grammar rules that apply to regular pages, apply to strategy pages. This means that it is important to use proper English, and to make sure that you are not repeating information that has already been provided." Friendship smallLoleil Talk 07:56, February 22, 2010 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. Where exactly do we have to put this disclaimer? Regarding necessary/unnecessary strategy pages, I'm currently close to re-considering my initial reaction. Being a veteran of pen-and-paper D&D and BioWare's Infinity engine-based RPGs, perhaps I greatly underestimate the challenge level provided by DA:O. Current generation of RPG players comes, for the most part, from real-time online RPGs, like Lineage II or WoW. It's a vastly different approach, so turn-based D&D-like combat, relying more on skills and party synergy, than on pwrlvling and gear quality/customization, may be difficult to adapt to for a huge number (maybe, indeed, a majority) of players. I regularly see a lot of those 'Why is DA:O so freaking hard?' threads on BioWare forums. So maybe a strategy page explaining how to defeat, say, Broodmother is not so useless, after all... IN 20:54, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

On a vaguely related topic, User:Hollowness has been working on getting creature abilities onto the wiki, and asked me a question about whether we should be including creature tactics in the wiki, as in this old, and somewhat inaccurate, Arcane Horror page. Hollowness is aiming for the tidier looking list of types and their spells/abilities instead, but understandably didn't want to just remove info from the wiki - and we do have access to creature tactics if it would be good to have them. My own not-very-strongly-held view is that this level of information is only likely to be useful for the tough boss fights, and thus could go on strategy or quest pages or wherever we decide to put it rather than on the creature pages (see, I told you it was a related point!) but what's your feeling, Loleil? Zoev talk 13:17, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

@IN I'd put it in the Dragon Age Wiki: Editing Guidelines which is basically a compilation of all the policy decisions that have thus far been made. Then if anyone disagrees with a decision made, which has been based on those principles, you can refer them there. It's always tricky trying to guess what others may find hard when it differs from your own experience. I still find those blood mages in Denerim more challenging than the archdemon. So I think if we try to help those who might not be familiar with traditional RPGs that would be a good thing.

@Zoev Hmm that sounds sensible. It can go on talk pages for regular enemies and on the strategy pages if an enemy has one. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 23:09, February 23, 2010 (UTC)


We've got another new companion for Awakening. Check the page. Warden Of The Dales 20:18, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

I'd seen the new companion, I even put up her trailer, but somehow she missed out on a news update. Looks like she'll be interesting though. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 23:09, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Sigurn cntd


to be honest, I do have a question, and your friendly message on my tak page invited me to ask here ^^

When people edit a page, their reply is posted and afterwards their name and edit time/date. The name is clickable. When I reply to a page, there is nothing, I post anonymously. How can I change that?

Thank you and sorry for the newbie question :)

question about dog

you have all the things listed that dog can find except 2 things . (1) A Very Chewed and Moist Book which is a codex entry and (2) A Piece Of Wood ( which is a mages staff ) and can be used by a high level mage. I was just wondering why those were not put under things found by dog and if they are in this wiki somewhere could you let me know where thank you.


thank you for answering that question for me . I had not seen that finding items page and that was why I had asked

removing category and adding headers

Heh, wasn't sure how to do that get it into the forum list. Thanks, now I know. Lufos 23:49, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

Glad I could help Smiley. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 01:35, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Err sorry , Loleil, I forgot about that one... [[Special:Contributions/|Lufos 14:47, February 26, 2010 (UTC)]] (forgot to log in again)

New Forum post

Forum:Combat_Mechanics,_Attributes,_etc, I think it is mostly up your alley. Maybe secretly on your wish list too :P  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 04:07, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Nav. bar

Talk:Corrupted Spider Queen, top link on the nav. bar has Corrupted Spider Queen under poultices (Items->Poultices->Corrupted Spider Queen). FYI.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 05:17, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Part II


Incivility consists of personal attacks, rudeness, and aggressive behaviours that disrupt the project and lead to unproductive stress and conflict. Editors are human, capable of mistakes, so a few, minor incidents of incivility are not in themselves a major concern. A behavioral pattern of incivility is disruptive and unacceptable, and may result in blocks if it rises to the level of harassment or egregious personal attacks. A single act of incivility can also cross the line if it is severe enough: for instance, extreme verbal abuse or profanity directed at another contributor, or a threat against another person can all result in blocks without consideration of a pattern. In general, be understanding and non-retaliatory in dealing with incivility. If others are uncivil, be understanding (people do say things when they get upset) rather than judgemental, and do not respond in kind. If necessary, point out gently that you think the comment might be considered uncivil, and make it clear that you want to move on and focus on the content issue. Bear in mind that the editor may not have considered it uncivil and that to insist that an editor be sanctioned for an isolated, minor offense, or to treat constructive criticism as an attack, is itself potentially disruptive, and may result in warnings or even blocks if repeated.

This has happened two times now Forum:Approval with jmjimmy and I cannot take anymore since Tierrie considers this taking sides, if he wants to comment fine. I have been told twice to not get upset (and that I am over reacting) over this when it was deliberate rudeness and no it has branch to aggressiveness and personal attacks. I cannot stay somewhere I can be treated like this and the party not even warned. This is the same reason I left wow one person didn't like me and admins didn't stop them and I went through that shit for three months, this is a much smaller community and I can't have it happen gain. I really advise something to be done but I know this sounds like ' (and I am sorry it does but I really am a 100% or not at all, I can't detach myself and not let it bug me, if I feel no just or right has been done, I don't feel validated) or I am leaving' but for myself, I cannot have this repeat, I will try to tie up loose ends because I hate loose ends, but between Tierrie's reaction and this aggressive rude behavior. I have explained my self countlessly and to no avail, I give up its up to the admins now.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 20:32, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

'get over yourself'
'you're just throwing hissy fits whenever someone doesn't do it exactly as you want'
and moving my templates after a heated discussion like minutes with in and with out even telling and to get a reaction from me, he knows that I like to be informed when my templates are being changed etc.
I assume you missed these comments and would like you to reconsider that he is just an innocent and I am just upset that we what had an argument.
And worst off he started the argument going, I dropped a little hey you may want to... and he went off accusing me that I had intent of having these templates used and said my joke wasn't a joke and I am misunderstanding. Then said I just want to drop this as an innocent, when I didn't even bring it up, he assumed that I indirectly had that attempted.
Worst of all on both occasion Tierrie warns me to relax and that I was being passive aggressive, when I was not and if it was interpreted that way, I never meant it to be but no not one warning to him not one hey take it easy or I don't think hollow was really trying to change this entire project into 2 templates with no usage and your over reacting. No because why cause this guy know css coding and Tierrie wants to keep him happy I don;t know I see him taking sides then saying he wasn't why would I be told off twice for raising a concern and pointing out a that some unregistered user happened to fall upon my templates and use them. No took note I changed them to the real approval template or that the post was for humorous intent 'OMG LOL :P' ya that is me being serious and trying to get you all to use my templates oooooooo.
So to break it down if the above couldn't even warrant a 'hey ya you seem to be attacking hollow' or 'you seem to be taking offense to comments when you shouldn't be' or, 'you have deliberately shown aggression to hollow with direct comments and accusation and action'. And yet I get 2 warnings, whose not taking sides there.
And this he is trying to build a bridge is not true I was over the initial issue with him and he brought it up then closed it with I want to move on this.
If he had the right to treat me like this, then I am sorry you guys feel this way and can't give the guy a warning or at least see he was at least being rude and the template move was an attack on me. And I can truly not stay here if this guy doesn't get a warning for at least bring up argument that was suppose to be done and is going backwards and isn't contributing to the wiki or at least for the template move cause that was 100% to get me upset. Then I cannot be on this wiki, I honestly thought you see that he was at least being harsh but now since you back him up and think that what he did was fine, I can't be here, I can't be in another place where I can get shit and everyone looks the other way or thinks they didn't mean anything by it.
But most of all if you don't believe it yourself that he doesn't deserves at least a warning, at this point since the first offense, I think a strong official one is called for. Then I am not in the right community and I obviously have no friends here. I'll try to clean up my projects so they aren't half done but at this point you guys truly think he did nothing wrong, just hurts.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 10:46, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

And this from Tierrie:

"There's going to be times when you're wrong. This is one of them. And when you persist in victimizing yourself I am going to call you out on it. And when I do, I'm going to start with a "hey there, relax".

I think you're overreacting. No one ever suggested that you leave. In fact, I like your edits and I feel that you've been a huge asset to the wiki. So, stay and keep up the good work. And, if you choose to stay this passive aggressive behavior and self-victimizing needs to stop."

Sorry this pushed me over if this is what is truly thought of me, I have no place here. I am sorry this couldn't get resolved, all I was asking was if I get a warning and the guy told me off he should get one too, but fuck it Tierrie thinks this shit of me. I am sorry, I really think you have good intentions of running this wiki but no admin has the right to say that crap to someone.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 11:08, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

I hadn't backed anyone, rather my intent was to remain neutral to give you guys a chance to work things out on your own. I suppose that shall never happen now, but as this is likely the last message I shall leave you, I want to offer a sincere thanks for all your work. However, as this is a hobby for us all, I think it is important that it is fun and interesting for editors. If editing is no longer meeting that brief for you, I can understand why you might feel that you need to cease. I hope that you might like to drop by from time-to-time and see all your good work in action and should you ever wish to return to editing you'd be welcome. Best of luck in any future endeavours Smiley.

P.S. I can understand if you would like to keep the page clean, I just didn't have the option of sending you an e-mail. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 23:48, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Even with me leaving I think you could take some action to both tierrie and jmjimmy (especially if you you like me to come back in the future, if the user disappears from editing here I could find my self back but I think you should at least talk to tierrie about HIS response to me) that maybe to be less aggressive and maybe as your code of conduct assume good faith, I am the type of person who cannot even lie to my own mother, get upset when animals get hurt in films and squimish when morals are compromised, only use the fword when I am very very upset and have a high believe in rights and justice over opinions and internet bullying I have been victim twice now and both times admins did nothing I didn't expect wow to give a shit and you can block nasty users but a community like this, especially when I got told all the time to not go there this fuck could get that at least once over this whole thing and tierrie has no right to say shit like that as an admin. So when I get picked on, I get upset and I either block user (and I truely thought the first instance was innocent and I thought it was dead and buried or else I would have never visited the approval forum again but HE insisted I stay on) or if I don't want to get in trouble with it escalating further on the site look to the admins who are suppose to be a safe guard in user vs user disputes even without taking sides something can still be done (especially how an admin did take a side with this, even tho he says he doesn't where was the hey you guys not i twas hey hollow relax, your reaction). Anyways just cause I am leaving and you take no action makes this worse, its like I didn't matter to at least say something, anything I am not asking to block a user for gawd sake. Really unless you think his actions were 100% innocent, when how about were he tells me off 'hey if my actions are against the code of conduct let an admin tell me' say something like you are actually compromising it by taking the thread off subject over an earlier dispute, tell the user what there intentions were as a negative approach to worsen the situation and taking action of the templates in subject moving them to purposely get a reaction form the use is considered Incivility. But only if you believe it, if not I am just wasting my time here, ALL I wanted was to make this wiki to a the highest of standard of quality and he couldn't even get a warning. Yes don't bother leaving messages there you can answer here. If no action at all is done I can't even try to finish up projects, I have been so upset over this I have only left my bed for see if you at least tried to help. And fuck tierrie for saying that shit you know if he said that in a work environment due to my condition he could get fired or a formal complaint but of course the joys of the internet. Please don't turn a blind eye this wiki could get quite popular with more active editors and if he gets away with saying that to whom ever he wants you will have this problem again in the future.

And as a formal suggestion because I think this is the communities biggest down fall, since users seem to not care about how they treat other users is made a lot easier because they are faceless internet figments not real people, maybe besides that you admins seem to have gotten to know each other, an editor causal talk forum, just about introductions, whats ups, and a basic social corner. Because it took 3 months of bullying for someone to ruin wow for me I had a strong friend backing and fan base that the odd mean asshole didn't effect me this took 2 arguments and an admin telling me off, for me to lose faith here (which I think can at least be redeemed if something, anything for the love of gawd to be done), I mean I am upset I am not trying to get anything, I am not trying to hurt anyone, I am here to help and yet I get told these mean mean things, I never in my life have been told these things, and it was devastating, I really can't believe he can get away with saying that.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 05:07, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

I am genuinely sorry this has made you sad as this is the last thing I would want editing the wiki to cause. However, I really feel you are blowing this out proportion. I'm not sure if your past experiences with other sites have made you cautious, but think of this, you have received negative comments from two users, and, looking through your page history, positive comments from at least ten. That is what you should be focusing on. As far as content of the Tierrie's comments, although they are critical, being called negative, victimising, and passive aggressive is not nearly severe enough for me personally to override another admin.
I'm not sure if this will help or provide any additional clarification, but I'll try to give you an honest and thorough assessment of how I saw the discussion from my side of the keyboard. I wouldn't class Jmjimmy as "innocent" as such, I don't think this is an issue where such terms are useful. It is clear to me that he became frustrated as the conversation progressed and I'm not sure what I would have said if I had been an active participant in the thread, but there is nothing was said there that required an additional admin to step in. The one thing that I felt a little unhappy with from Jmjimmy was moving the templates into your namespace without prior discussion. Given his request I suppose he also deserves an explanation of how I saw his actions.
That being said, I think it is important to look at your actions too. Of course one of the pitfalls of communication on the internet, is the fact that the majority of interactions are done through words alone and some of your words can be interpreted negatively. This is not to say that you had negative intent, but I think it is important to acknowledge that.
I'm also not sure why you've not attempted to resolve things with Jmjimmy before asking for intervention. Especially as you're familiar with of code of conduct where the first step of conflict resolution is to:
"First consider discussing it on that user's talk page. Be careful not to escalate the situation, and politely explain your objection."
I like to think that our regular editors are mature enough to resolve minor disagreements on their own and as the person who has taken offence, I would have really like to have seen an attempt on your part to resolve this on a talk page. This would have given you a chance to defend yourself against any accusations you felt were unfair, ask questions, or if you know that you are sensitive you could have explained that and asked for consideration in future dealings.
By skipping this step, and because it appears that you've taken these comments really hard, to the extent that you feel like you can no longer be a regular editor, whether it was intentional or not, I think you have escalated the situation.
Although I haven't edited in other communities, I've seen plenty that are less friendly than ours. Look at all the nice messages you've received to see proof of that. As to your suggestion about a new users forum, I'll consider it.
You close by saying that you don't want to hurt anyone, and I'd like to address that as what you said about Tierrie troubles me. Like everyone I don't enjoy criticism, but Tierrie criticized your actions by saying
"I like your edits and I feel that you've been a huge asset to the wiki. So, stay and keep up the good work. And, if you choose to stay this passive aggressive behavior and self-victimizing needs to stop".
You criticized Tierrie's actions by saying
"fuck tierrie for saying that shit"
Seeing them set out there, I know which comment would upset me more and which one is truly uncivil.
Also, if you can say something that strong to another user (stronger than what has been said to you, to my mind) while stating you have no ill intent, I'm not sure why you can't give other editors the benefit of the doubt and assume that others can say negative things without wanting to upset you.
However I'll close by reiterating what I said in my previous post. If editing makes you unhappy, then there is no need to continue. However, if you do continue, you really need to tone down the rhetoric when dealing with disagreements and not take comments to heart as that just leads to extra upset. Take care. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 13:06, February 28, 2010 (UTC)
Actually when I tried to talk to jmjimmy about it (it just slipped form his user talk to the forum, it didn't seem like as serious as before until he blatantly called me a lair and it was too late it went bad from there) and before going to you mention the code of conduct and was blasted with a 'let an admin tell me when I am not following the code of conduct' which is actually contrary to the code which says when in dispute talk the the user and mention they may not be following the code of conduct (infact the first person to point out the code of conduct to me over a very light comment about tierrie being defensive over a situation was mention to me by Zoev before she was admin, it gave me a good reason to review and see that thought i wasn't breaking it it could easily build up if both sides aren't careful), so in essences I didn't miss a step it hit a brick wall when I tried. And since it was the second time we had a spat and the template move and tierrie choosing to sides with him and tell me I am a passive aggressive, which honestly I was thinking jmjimmy was warranting such his tone was more undertone aggression to me and only could be see that way due to all the threads we had going int he past the average on looker would be none the wiser and made it that much more sneaky but then I was told off and jmjimmy nothing I'd forgive if we both got told because this was the second time having an argument go personal on the forums but no only me.
The difference between my comment and Tierrie's he was not acting on emotions, I was truly hurt and devastated by his words and emotionally reacted (I am not as upset as I was when I read that, but at the time irrational and emotionally wreck can only explain, I wouldn't repeat it or stand by such a statement, but I would explain that after reading his statement, he destroyed me and my raw emotion was reflected as such an example I basically blubbered to you, with the understanding that I was purging my emotions on the matter). But he not only believes it, he is standing by his insult and if you allow your admins to have words with there editors doesn't make a happy community relationship. Remember mine is a reaction to emotional stress put on from his comment, and that I am not they type of person to just randomly say that to people. I said it to you because I thought it show you the extent of the hurt it has done to me besides this situation: have I been so irrational with my words? have I even use the fword before this situation? no, only for this because it destroyed me so. And If I can't as a last line of defense show you then, I confided in an admin something I thought they understand and wasn't, remember I said this to you as a reaction to what was done on to me I did not do this to others, I came here and 'vented' to you. And if I can't come to admins for this sort of thing then I have simply very much mistaken the roles of admins on this site and could apologize.
The problem is I was looking for a neutral admin to no pick sides and either tell us both off or to 'knock it off' but no, only I was and then was further by tierrie's comment. Criticisms are one thing (statements like: your off track of the subject, you may be defensive about this, your only seeing your point of view on this, you may be misunderstanding, etc) but this was cold and critical and personal, unwarranted and just plain mean. Beside the fact he complete over looked jmjimmy, those particular comments neither added nor helped the situation. And if anything no matter the person, no one would not have taken it well, and the fact I was upset was just made for unfair cruelty, kick me while I am down wasn't enough, he kicked me in the face. Not, that I wanted sympathy, I tried to explain without telling my sad tale, that I am in no condition for repeated attacks and crude criticisms, yet, tierrie went on and further branded me as self victimizing, no, I am just ill (and don't want to pull that card, no one should people shouldn't behave like this when someone says stop) but I shouldn't have to explain that he shouldn't be saying these things, do people pouring drinks for a recovering alcoholics, no, especially when they say 'I shouldn't be drinking' or 'I don't drink' (they shouldn't have to announce it every time they go out, "I am a alcoholic").
The forum was just a suggestion (the chances it would work cause it doesn't work for every situation or even if it get utilized very unknown), I have been in a number of communities ranging from blog, networking, gaming etc, I really don't know much on the editing sites but just general communities and found a lot more friendliness even after arguments and issues (I remember one site I swear the admin (and the only admin) hated me they only had negative comments about me and my material but never said anything straight up rude and I still stayed in that community almost a year till changed time zones for 6 months and fell behind). No 2 communities are the same but I am use to sort of family tight communities, I don't need them to be, I just don't want to be told all the nasty dark things people think about me when I haven't had a shinning moment.
And, also, this is my bad, (I have been mostly answering fully emotional throttled), I have a sort of obsessive compulsive need to answer every reply even if it is pointless, but am I over done, here, nothing I can explain more I don't think that wouldn't help show you anymore of anything I don't think (woah srry I am tried and don't know if I am making sense). So is there no help, that I have asked for, able to be given and your just nicely replying to me? ok, I am over tired, I can't even read my own words, and already timed out on one log in. Cause, I come back to for the whole having faith that either tierrie realized he was being harsh or you telling him he was being harsh and maybe something told to jmjimmy. So I can sleep threw the nights and maybe come back in the future or at least feel good enough to tie up my loose ends. if anything sounds odd its cause I haven't slept for a long while and I think I am past coherent.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 00:18, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure what comment you're referring to on Jmjimmy's talk page. All I can see is
"Did you not see my long winded note on that article. "you may want to refrain from using the approval template for an official standard template is in the making, but I did update with the one the admins are thinking of using)". Then you and implemented it more : /. This whole approval things seems to be on hold Forum:Approval# On Hold so you prolly want to hold off on anymore adding this template to articles"
Which is not the same as "We've had problems and I'd like to resolve them", which is what I wanted to see before becoming involved.
As I stated I would do above, I informed Jmjimmy what I thought and he stated that his moving the templates was indeed done out of spite. Obviously this is not ideal behaviour, but I give him credit for admitting his mistake. If he does something like this again (which I think is unlikely), then we can see a clear pattern of destructive behaviour and know that a firmer stance needs to be taken.
I haven't asked Tierrie to do anything as your words can be interpreted as he interpreted them. Again, I'm not saying that was your intent, but as the author you must take some responsibility for how your words appear, and defend or contextualize them if they are not saying what you intended.
Of course you are free to express your emotions to me, but it's important to relay them in a calm, rational way, without abusing other editors. I understand that bad news when things are going badly can affect you more than it would normally, but I think if you know you're a little extra vulnerable you need to take care of yourself by either taking some time out until things are a little better. I think it's also important to remember that no one on the wiki knows exactly what is going on in your life.
I feel like I'm making points I've already made so I'm not sure how productive this reply has been, but in summary: Both of you could have acted better in the approval discussion, however I don't expect perfection and with one admin on the scene I felt there was no need there was no need to intervene. To discern Tierrie's reasons for his comments you would be best asking him. Jmjimmy has written that what he did with the templates wasn't appropriate so it's likely that it won't happen again. I'm not sure how much more can be said, but of course you are welcome to respond. I don't want you to think I can't see your point of view, I just hope you can see other people's too. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 05:13, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
For the jmjimmy thing it was a confrontation that sicne we were speaking on both his talk page and the forum slid tot eh forum, I was basically asking why are you doing what I advised against and he mention he was making note from that it was on the forum and we just continued the conversation there (forum thread) where I was trying to explain I was just advising and his action seem to be against it then as if just because I said it but his answers where so abrupt in a non resolving way but then finished it off with but I want to get over this. Now if he was completely innocent in his intents he is just as unpeople person as I and we clashed if he did it to be a jerk and was basically mocking and getting a rise out of me which the moved templates imo enforced that is my reaction.
As for the Tierrie thing, admins cannot tell how people should be unless they are directly violating the code of coduct and if so he should have said it to only my talk page and said it more as a polite suggestion instead of a you are and you will.
From what I can gather from all of this now that I have removed myself from it and no longer emotional. If this if jmjimmy is as I said just as innocent as me than personality clash at the wrong time an the second time didn't help, and it can only be put behind the end if I come back or go away from ever, and be just a shame it happened. Sorry, I must have missed read you before, I thought you said you were only considering talking to him about it not that you did my bad. Or he is rude and will eventually carve his own path and I may feel justified when/if that happens but it is a no win situation, I'd prefer he is just as innocent as I or we were both as blind or what not. And as you said we are just making are same points, going in circles is unnecessary and I'll mention the jmjimmy thing no longer.
For Tierrie, I complete disagree that he choose to only tell me off (said an done nothing to be done about it now) but I think his telling his opinion of me not not warranted and unless I am in direct violation of the code of conduct, admins, at least I so no fine print can say there opinion about people in a emotional situation as a negative feed back and have that not fall in the grey area of going against the code of conduct himself. Unfortunately when in a dispute with another admin another has to get involved some how as I called upon you. Now, from what I can gather with how this wiki is run and the basics of the code of conduct this is not mention, so I'd think you'd either discuss it with him from a outcome of either him retracting or apologizing (best case scenario on my end) or the agree to disagree approach and he knows it was if his intent or not was not perceived as such and to for the sake of the user choose, another approach in the future or another admin (being you) stating this is will only be a dealt with in fear of inflaming the situation and give me either the apology or the agree to disagree line.
Now, I only say these because I have been in admin/gm/officer positions for 2 different guilds back in the days of wow that were me peace keeping, having to sort out the messes between players and officers many many times (with many personalities and clashed over power loot, I seen it all, I was putting out fires weekly with 30-50 people, so I am not a complete social tard, my condition doesn't help me or this situation but I only react when feeling attacked and if that can be at least understood and that I am not these mean things tierrie tells me that I am we will be more that fine but who knows), I think as I said way before because people don't know people or maybe I do have the worst from of writing skills that disrupts the balance of mankind, and are and will always have the chance of misinterpretation. Basically, I think if I actually spoke to Tierrie/Jmjimmy/ or even you, like on a ventrillo setting, I think this could have been fixed but messages and interpretation of sincerity can be presumed, assumptions etc, lead to these sort bad clashes (not just this situation over the basic rule of the net messaging system). I am very reasonable, but when you attack me when I am upset because I feel attack from someone else, if tierrie is a understanding guy, I think we can at least have some sort of peace, it does hang on me, I hate having bad situation I feel I need to fix. So if you still all disagree with what I say and don't feel the need to at least talk with tierrie, I will ask to reconsider and even then I'll extend further and offer a ventrillo talk so (I have a host that loves me from back in the wow days and will ensure privacy), that we can civilly say hey, and maybe we will all understand each other better afterwards that misunderstandings won't happened and having an understanding of each other can validate each of us. I hope you think about any of that and consider me over the jmjimmy thing as I stated above. Eagerly awaiting your reply  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 17:54, March 4, 2010 (UTC)


I've been thinking about Awakening. We call the main character in Origins The Warden. But what do we call the non-import main character in Awakening because surely The Warden was the one that stopped the blight? Warden Of The Dales 18:51, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

The Orlesian Warden, Orlesian imported Warden Fycan [fahy-kan] @ 19:01, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

In general I think (or hope) that we can get away with mainly using the Warden. However, I think there will be points where if will be worth pointing out the differences between the two. Hopefully something like
Note: The Orlesian Warden will get a different reaction that an imported Warden
will suffice. Only a couple of weeks until we find out Smiley. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 23:42, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

thank you


Have you noticed that the diffs are now a slightly different color? I am trying to track down the cause of it and fix it. But I'm not sure if its just me. -- tierrie talk contr 19:26, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

I tracked down the error and fixed it before anyone else was awake. This kind of efficiency is only available as part of my Evil Empire™ and Germany. -- tierrie talk contr 23:46, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

Take a look at his wonderful 'contribution' to Aim article. As a self-appointed mechanics guru (heh), I'm updating and watching all those pages, and, honestly, I hate to resort to reverting other people's input (prefer to rephrase, move to notes, move to talk page). Wiki is a democratic social construct, after all (sort of) :) This edit is completely counter-logical, however. To the point of being quasi-vandalistic, I'd say :) I don't know what to think, really. Just FYI: I've already dropped him a message concerning this style of editing, so no need to intervene if you don't think it's worth your time. IN 00:29, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, so lets hope it's a case of simple human error. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 00:42, March 4, 2010 (UTC)
Of course. Moreover, he obviously makes numerous contributions to the wiki. But, I have to add, if that's representative of their average quality level (I don't want to sound harsh, but there's really no way one could possibly miss the *2 ranged crit effect of Aim), I'll just have to stay alert in the future. You know, when he wrote, for example: "Haste affects summoned creatures' movement speed, but not their attack speed", I didn't quite feel the urge to go and double-check it immediately. And why would I, indeed? Now I'll have to, I guess. IN 01:03, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.