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Major characters and conditional relationships

Have a concensus been reached about the conditional relationships of major characters in the series? E.g. Kieran's conditional fathers and other relatives, Anora's husbands. etc.

Personally I think it looks tidier if we clear it up and put confirmed relations and put the conditional relations in the spoiler boxes in involvement. Some of them such as Kieran is conditionally a step-sister to Anora is almost like having to say that DAO is a game; the fanbase should know this.

And considering how often these kind of pages get changed around maybe we could put a light lock on some of the major ones like we did with Loghain which require an account? Ta-ta. Virrey (talk) 12:47, January 26, 2017 (UTC)

Just my two cents, but I don't think all conditional relationships are obvious to all people, some depend on playthroughs or styles of play that some might not see. Also, Kieran is Morrigan's son, so I think you mean that he could be Anora's stepson, not stepsister. DaBarkspawn (talk) 15:16, January 26, 2017 (UTC)
The only policy I'm aware of regarding family in the infobox is that it should only include immediate family (this came up because people kept adding the mage warden to Hawke's page as a second-cousin). Other than that, I can't find anything else in the guidelines about it, and the wiki seems to be fairly inconsistent regarding what to put and when. Kieran's talk page has some discussion about what family should be included but I don't know about other characters. This may be a good discussion to have with the community via the forums as I'd definitely be in favor of some kind of consistency. If you want to start a discussion that'd be great.
I went ahead and protected Kieran's page from new and unregistered users because looking at the history of the page there's been a lot of vandalism and nonsense edits to it over the past year. Let me know if there's other pages you think need protecting and I'll take a look at them. --Kelcat Talk 00:00, January 27, 2017 (UTC)


Mine. Personal. If you didn't like that link, you might want to take a look at the related history. I was following that progress with really mixed feelings. But didn't dare to remove that link by myself, rather thought, someone with more experience and being sort of in charge here would settle with it.
Now it's gone, thanks to you! Smiley.gif
Btw., sorry for forgetting the switch from adverb to adjective these days during my rewording. Saw your "grammar" summary and thought, "my, what have I done wrong now again?" Icon wink.gif CompleCCity (talk) 13:27, January 31, 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't know why it took me a month to realize something was off about the infoboxes; luckily it was an easy fix. I did a full scan of the user's history, too, to make sure everything else was copacetic. And no worries about the "grammar", I figured you just forgot to fix the existing word during your edit. Smiley.gif --Kelcat Talk 20:44, January 31, 2017 (UTC)

Finders Keepers


I just wanted to let to let you know that there is a dead link on the page Finders Keepers. It refers to a glitch that happens if you pick "I'll tell you for a price." I was just wanting to let you know so that you could fix it and add a new way that we could access this information.

Thank you! --Kdrama (talk) 22:35, February 2, 2017 (UTC)

I looked in the Wayback Machine, but all of the captures of that topic are redirects to the language choice page. :( DaBarkspawn (talk) 00:31, February 3, 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, it looks like this is a casualty of BioWare's forums shutting down; archive.org finally redirected me to a forum topic that's not at all related. The bug should have been detailed in the article in the first place, but since it isn't I'll have to take the note out completely as there's no way to tell what this bug even was. Thanks for pointing it out! --Kelcat Talk 03:07, February 3, 2017 (UTC)

Once We Were and Haven Trivia

I noticed that the Haven page had two trivia sections and tried merge the two sections. One has Haven trivia and the other has trivia about the song Once We Were. CompleCCity happen to notice (thanks!) that I managed to delete it from the song page when I merged the two sections together (not sure how that happened). But here's the weird thing: if I restore the edit on the song page, it recreates a new trivia section on the Haven page! I can't see anything in the wiki text of either page that causes this linkage to happen. On some reflection, since the song can be heard outside of Haven, I think the right thing is to have the trivia only appear on the song page. Do you know how to fix this? DaBarkspawn (talk) 17:12, February 4, 2017 (UTC)

This happens due to the {{CodexTransformer}} template. I'm not that deep into this stuff, that I could explain en detail how it works.
I've tried to disable that specific trivia section to appear on transform-pages by moving </onlyinclude> above trivia, but that didn't work. Perhaps the transformer-template has to be changed, or <includeonly> has to be used… --CompleCCity (talk) 19:50, February 4, 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for giving it a shot! DaBarkspawn (talk) 20:08, February 4, 2017 (UTC)
I moved the trivia on the codex entry article up into the transformer box and moved the </onlyinclude> above the references section, which seems to have fixed the problem. I removed that trivia tidbit from the Haven article, and I only see one trivia section on that article now. No idea why it went wonky, maybe because of the references section? --Kelcat Talk 01:02, February 5, 2017 (UTC)
Perfect, thanks! No idea how it got this way. DaBarkspawn (talk) 02:15, February 5, 2017 (UTC)
I won't take a closer look now into the {{CodexTransformer}}, but if you call it "transformer box", @Kelcat, rather than InfoBox, then this happened more likely due to the trivia section being part of the main page content, not the box content.
Thanks! CompleCCity (talk) 07:57, February 5, 2017 (UTC)


  • It just struck me that there really is no description for warrior guard on the wiki. It's not even mentioned on Warrior (Inquisition). I think this is in part because it is sort of a ride along ability, unlike, for example Barrier (Inquisition) which is an activated ability and comes from an ability tree. I'd like to create a page for this, discuss how it is gained and lost (e.g., unlike barrier, it doesn't go away over time, it goes away when the character travels) and link in all of the guard gaining abilities and anti-guard effects (e.g., from crafted items). Any dissent? DaBarkspawn (talk) 03:27, February 6, 2017 (UTC)
Sounds like a good idea to me! Smiley.gif Kelcat Talk 05:15, February 6, 2017 (UTC)
Okay, my first draft of this is here: Guard. I'm not very expert on templates and info boxes, so suggestions along those lines would be welcome. In particular, I note that there is a template for including a codex entry, but I couldn't figure out how to include just a part of an entry. Also, while I am at home with equations and programming code (as in one of the references), I realize that these can be intimidating for the casual reader, so I have translated the two equations involved and given examples as a stylistic choice. I'm also open to suggestions for applicable categories. Some searching did not provide anything applicable and I'd rather not read through all 500 or so categories. Icon wink.gif DaBarkspawn (talk) 00:47, February 13, 2017 (UTC)
Sure, I'll take a look at it later and see if I can give you some feedback. As far as codex entry excerpts: What you want to do is go to the actual codex entry article, and in the infobox add this:
"|excerpt =" (without the quotation marks) above the "|text =" line. Then add whatever part of the codex you want to use as the excerpt. Then on the Guard article, instead of using the usual codex entry template like we normally do, use the CodexExcerpt template. Instructions are on that page on how to use it. Basically instead of {{:Codex entry: Abominations}}, you'd use {{:Codex entry: Abominations|style=codexexcerpt}} --Kelcat Talk 01:43, February 13, 2017 (UTC)
All right, I took a look at it, and it looks pretty good to me! I don't know anything about the Guard mechanic, so I can't give feedback about any of that, but I changed all the abilities and items to icons to conform to other articles (and because it looks less boring in my opinion). Made a few minor style fixes, and added a couple categories. The only other change I can suggest is changing the codex section to an excerpt like I described above. --Kelcat Talk 00:41, February 14, 2017 (UTC)


Elfroot is a very commonly found item; but when crafting recipes, or filling requisitions 30+ Elfroot are needed at a time. Where else will you find 17 Elfroot within a 20 square yard area? Please do not edit the image I've placed of this Elfroot Patch, unless you have one better to list--XaeNsTir (talk) 17:51, February 12, 2017 (UTC)?


The information's already in the body of the article. Why on earth do we need a map to show the location of a camp that's easy to find on the in-game map? Images should be used to explain points that can't be explained with words, which isn't the case here. --Kelcat Talk 20:51, February 12, 2017 (UTC)
Given the wide, dense distribution of elfroot which may well be the most common resource node to find, I don't see how a map to a particular location of somewhat greater density is all that useful. Usually I find lots of elfroot just by tripping over it. ;) To answer the rhetorical question, I just happened to find a huge patch of elfroot and rashvine in the snow of Emprise du Lion near where the dead elf with the wedding ring is. There must have been at least ten elfroot nodes there. So, should we add that map, too? And so on? DaBarkspawn (talk) 21:10, February 12, 2017 (UTC)

The Elfroot Patch I added is not at Sarnia Camp, proper. You need to travel down a road; to a village, through which there is no clear path, to the road outside the village, and then happen to notice the patch on the other side of a wall which runs up the side of the road from there.

Two large patches would make farming even easier; especially if Fast Traveling is required to access each. Again, there is a huge difference between finding 1-2, or even a handful at a time; VS finding 17+ in a wack.

I'm on my 5th play through DAI; and I use this patch regularly, even though I pick single/random plants/resources like elfroot whenever I pass them. I could not image anyone, newbie or Pro, not wanting to pin point this location. This time through I'm on Nightmare difficulty, and have been using more Elfroot than previously to supply my Party with Regeneration potions. Had I set the "Rub a Little Dirt on It" Trial also, where there are no Healing potions, I would have been needing Elfroot even more than lately(like most probably my next run through...)

I just checked the location of the other Elfroot Patch mentioned in the Notes of the page, by DaBarkspawn. That's great, I'd forgot about Calenhad's Foothold. I think it's odd that now one patch is listed in Acquisition and the other is in Notes; but what matters to me is that they are both lited, whichever section they are actually mentioned in would not matter to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by XaeNsTir (talkcontribs)

The notes and images you added didn't make clear that this was a harder to find location. The image doesn't really reflect that, since the Sarnia Camp is circled. Is the path in yellow meant to be how to get to that area? A lot of maps we have on the wiki show that line because it can't be turned off, so most people ignore it as irrelevant to the image.
Here's what I'd suggest: If you can, maybe edit the image to make the specific area a little more noticeable; either by drawing the line out in a different color, or marking the end-point with a circle, X, etc. Or you could just add a caption to the image stating that that line on the image is the path to follow to get to the area. Then I'd put just a small note in acquisition about elfroot being near Sarnia Camp in Emprise du Lion and then down in the notes section a more detailed note about where exactly it is, how to get to it, and how many elfroot are available-- like you explained it to me above with there being no clear path, etc. That, I think, would make it more clear and would help people find what seems to be a valuable area (I use the castle area all the time). --Kelcat Talk 01:31, February 13, 2017 (UTC)

Quarries and Logging stands

I put the note on the crafting materials page because Quarry and Logging stand both link back to that page and no other. I think it is important and interesting to note that you can't find them the way one finds virtually everything else in the game, so if that page isn't suitable, which page would be? I guess we could put the same note twice, once on each page...? DaBarkspawn (talk) 15:15, February 15, 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it would be more appropriate and informative to put the notes on those specific pages themselves. Also, any notes like that should be below the lead sentence. --Kelcat Talk 19:33, February 15, 2017 (UTC)
Got it, done. Thanks! DaBarkspawn (talk) 20:00, February 15, 2017 (UTC)

War Table Table

Now that the guard page is done, the next project I want to do is a summary table of war table operations. I've put a proof of concept example here User_talk:DaBarkspawn#War_Table_Table_Test. Before I encode about three hundred operations into the table, let me know what you think of the idea and also the best place to put it. Being so large it might deserve its own page and linked from rather than on the War Table category page. DaBarkspawn (talk) 20:09, February 20, 2017 (UTC)

Might be because it's late here, but I don't quite see how this differs a lot from the existing table on the war table page. Except for the "unlocks" section--am I missing something? (wouldn't surprise me Icon wink.gif) Kelcat Talk 09:25, February 25, 2017 (UTC)
by the way, if you want to play around with this without clogging your own talk page, you can always create a sandbox for it. Just create a new page and title it something like User:DaBarkspawn/Sandbox. Kelcat Talk 09:28, February 25, 2017 (UTC)
Oh, hey, I totally missed that page. Ignore this, thanks! DaBarkspawn (talk) 15:52, February 25, 2017 (UTC)
You don't by chance play Heroes of Dragon Age, do you? We're missing a bunch of stuff from the game but there don't seem to be many contributors who still play it. --Kelcat Talk 03:14, February 26, 2017 (UTC)
That's the phone app, right? No, I've not played it. I'm not big on the genre - I have big thumbs and a tiny keyboard. ;) DaBarkspawn (talk) 05:01, February 26, 2017 (UTC)

User block(s)

Just saw you have blocked TheDarckner, and Darckner is blocked as well. Look at this one – or better: keep an eye on this one Icon wink.gif:

  • 23:08:12 . . Darktrick (Talk | contribs) created a user account

--CompleCCity (talk) 13:38, March 3, 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up! This guy is a menace Smiley.gif --Kelcat Talk 19:57, March 3, 2017 (UTC)


Hey when did you get promoted beaurecrat? Congratulations! -Seekers of Truth heraldry.pngHD3 (Talk) 14:02, March 3, 2017 (UTC)

Lol, thanks! It was awhile ago, when Tierrie and Loleil were both super busy with real world stuff so I offered to be a backup 'crat in case anything went down while the others weren't available. --Kelcat Talk 19:57, March 3, 2017 (UTC)


You may need to lock down the page, getting a lot of vandalism. DaBarkspawn (talk) 21:58, March 13, 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up, I put a temporary protection on it and blocked the users. --Kelcat Talk 22:17, March 13, 2017 (UTC)

Modernization Video Tests

Hey Kelcat,

a while ago I reached out to Tierrie but since he is not very active at the moment I would like to open the dialogue also with you and ask you to join the tests around the Modernization project with Dragon Age wiki. Maybe you also saw the blog post on Community Central and find the video helpful.

That is what we want to do:
We'd like to run tests around video placement and modernized article styles on Dragon Age wiki so we can gather data and user feedback. This will help us create the best product possible and provide a much more modernized and overall better user experience.

Here is how you can help us with that test:

Can we run the test on your wiki? It would be great to have you on board!

Feel free to reach out to me with any questions. Thanks! Springteufel (talk) 14:24, March 15, 2017 (UTC)

Well, we have a pretty strict video policy right now, and I can see a need for us to discuss possible changes to it as a community once this new feature becomes mandatory. And I'll admit I'm one of the guilty who uses adblocker because dynamic video ads make it nearly impossible for me to edit articles on my less than stellar laptop, so I'm skeptical of how this will affect us in the long run. Personally, I'd feel more comfortable exploring this at a later time when it's in the final stages, rather than be a test subject. --Kelcat Talk 01:45, March 17, 2017 (UTC)

Hey Kelcat, thanks for your feedback! Let me explain a little bit more in detail how the test will look like: Differently to former tests we don't want to have clear borders between the test period and the improvement of the feature to be able to change and improve the product every time we got new data and insights.
The Modernization Project is a topic that touches several areas in the communities. Videos are one part and so are the article and page header. Maybe you read the blog post about it. We want to have a new and modern look and feeling for the communities.
A clear definition of the end of a test phase is not really necessary -- we want to improve the placement of the videos, the video content and the player ongoing in the following time. And therefore we need your help. On the one hand your direct feedback (from you and all the Admins and users) is super helpful, on the other hand the Dragon Age wiki is a strong community that could help us to gather data about how user think about the video: Do they watch them? Do they end them in the middle? Do they continue to read the article while listening to the video? Possibly we also include a way to rate the videos. Coming to the point where you said, you would like to explore the final result: Participating the test at this early stage gives you the possibility to see the feature grow and the chance to improve it with your experience.
Did you see the example on Mass Effect or Harry Potter wiki? Those are two examples where video content underlines the text content on the page.
Does that make sense for you? Can you imagine to participate in the tests and give us feedback? Is there maybe something I should clarify more? Springteufel (talk) 14:53, March 22, 2017 (UTC)
To be really honest and blunt, the videos on the Mass Effect and Harry Potter wikis you point to strike me as a triumph of form over over function, that they add nothing to the content of the page, just flashy special effects. On the other hand, I would like to revisit DA:Video at some point because I believe there are times when videos do help. An example is the Gears in the Deep Roads walkthrough where a video showing the spots where the gears are is much more effective as a tutorial than the descriptions there. But even then, I think a simple link to the video is sufficient. It doesn't need to be embedded at the top with one of those annoying floater things that forces the video to follow the page as I scroll. DaBarkspawn (talk) 15:18, March 22, 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for going into more detail, and I do understand where you're coming from. I also understand that this is a feature that will eventually be implemented on all wikias, regardless of user opinion (which I'm fine with, ad revenue is what keeps you going). However, I don't feel that it would be beneficial to our community to be a part of this particular testing right now, and the Harry Potter examples you mentioned reinforced my opinion on that. This wiki has always been super light on video content, so this is going to be a major change for us. That's why I would rather we not be a test subject, and I'm hoping you'll respect that.

I saw the info about header modernization and am really excited about that, though! --Kelcat Talk 17:56, March 22, 2017 (UTC)

Hey DaBarkspawn, hey Kelcat, first of all for you helpful answer. I understand your concerns and I talked to several communities in the last days and weeks that have a similar history with their wiki.
Wikis developed over a long time but still many of them are based on the idea to focus on text- and picture-information. That makes sense very often and can be highly structured and helpful. But apart from media evolution, also the behavior of users in the internet changed: Video and audio formats are available everywhere and you can often decide on how you want to consume content: Do I want to listen to a podcast? Do I want to read an extensive article? Do I want to see a short video? And all of these media are valuable on their own -- it really depends on the user, the moment and the need. The videos on the wikis could also sum up the article in a short and entertaining way. That could make the community also attractive for people who never where a fan of wikis and get curious through the short video introduction. Also, and I am also talking about myself here ;) sometimes users from outside a wiki, that enjoy your great content, have a different view on media than we editors do. I think there could be a way to make both sides happy.
Ok let me come back to wiki videos after this trip in the "History Media evolution" ;) What I can read from your comments is that you understand our need to improve on the one hand our ad system and that we need to make changes on the other hand, also not all communities agree on that in every detail. I really appreciate that stance and of course I will accept your opinion.
But I would really like to figure out a way to find a solution for the both of us. I got something in mind like:
  • We have the chance to share the first vide we create for the wiki with you ahead so you can check it.
  • Since you are not really convinced of the videos I showed to you yet, would you maybe be interested in writing a video script for us that we can turn into a video and use to understand your idea of a good video?
Do you maybe have a good idea how we can come together? Because I think especially because you have a critical stance to videos in your wiki it is important to find a well working solution for the future.
Thank you!Springteufel (talk) 10:09, March 23, 2017 (UTC)
PS.: Happy to hear you like the header! :) I also think they are great!

Missing Picture category


Im looking for category for pages that have {{pictures wanted}} template in the article. Im currently back playing my old game dragon age 2 and maybe I can help adding pictures that needed in the article. Can you help show me the category page? Wiryawan310 (talk) 06:28, May 1, 2017 (UTC)

We can always use help with images! Smiley.gif The category you're looking for is here. --Kelcat Talk 17:54, May 1, 2017 (UTC)

Spoiler Template

Hello, I have some questions regarding the Spoiler Template I am wondering sho I shoudl talk to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skylent (talkcontribs)

I might be able to help you out. What do you want to know? --Kelcat Talk 17:54, May 1, 2017 (UTC)

Another spoiler template problem

I also have problem with spoiler template when trying to fix Victoria page with no success, I remove the spoiler template, putting the codex icon like another article, and want to put the spoiler template back but when i see in preview it not working.

the result spoiler template is like this:

Error template.png

so there is no "click here to reveal" option, the template show the content immediately when i open the page. can you help to fix it? Wiryawan310 (talk) 04:19, May 8, 2017 (UTC)

Sometimes it does that when you look at it in the preview screen. The wikia is set up to "remember" when you've clicked on a spoiler tag to reveal the hidden info, so that when you visit that page in the future the info behind the spoiler tag is automatically revealed so you don't have to click on the tag again (not sure if that made sense). Anyway, that might be what is happening. Since you already clicked on the spoiler tag on that article, when you make a change to it it is still going to reveal the info. Try clicking on the tag again and it should revert back to hiding the info and displaying that "click here to reveal" option.
The page looks like it's working now, so either you or someone else did manage to get it fixed already, yay! --Kelcat Talk 22:44, May 9, 2017 (UTC)

Category Definition Problem

I think http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Animals has a issue around defining what an animal is. I'm willing accept that things that have no earth analog, like nugs and fennec are animals, less so with things like phoenix and quillbacks and I have no idea why things like deep stalkers and ghasts are in the category at all. Thoughts? DaBarkspawn (talk) 19:05, June 21, 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I've never liked that category and think it's fairly useless. There aren't any articles in that category that wouldn't fit under other creature type categories. I'm going to propose deleting it as it seems redundant and just keeps getting added to irrelevant articles. --Kelcat Talk 03:35, June 23, 2017 (UTC)
Deleting works for me. DaBarkspawn (talk) 04:43, June 23, 2017 (UTC)
I am thinking of doing this deletion (along with the work on the other pages as required) within the next week. Someone should speak up if the believe this shouldn't happen. DaBarkspawn (talk) 17:44, July 8, 2017 (UTC)

Just saw this. I'll go ahead and use my bot to speed up the process. I think the nomination has been there long enough that we don't need to give it any more time. Friendship small.pngLoleil Talk 18:19, July 8, 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Loleil. I'd been planning on taking care of it this weekend so having your bot do it would be much appreciated! --Kelcat Talk 18:21, July 8, 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! Happy not to have to do the work manually. DaBarkspawn (talk) 18:25, July 8, 2017 (UTC)
Done! Bots are a real life saver for tasks like this. Smiley.gif Friendship small.pngLoleil Talk 18:30, July 8, 2017 (UTC)


Sometimes I don't get your decisions
What was the harm? And why not only archive it, instead of sysop-protection?
No harm to you, just some … wondering … -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 07:32, June 26, 2017 (UTC)

The thread was 6 years old. There was no need to revive it, which is why there's a banner at the top of old forums saying "the discussion is over. Do not continue it unless it really needs a response." The vast majority of the time that old threads are revived it's by trolls, either continuing the thread or just adding nonsense words for some reason, so I've just made it a habit of sysop protecting all needlessly necro'd threads to keep others from mistakenly thinking it's a new forum and also replying. There's no way to archive a forum manually, it's something that automatically happens when the forum gets old enough (not sure of the number of days). --Kelcat Talk 07:57, June 26, 2017 (UTC)
Okay, understood. And, as said – no offense, absolutely not. Smiley.gif (Not against you, never!)
So it's more a community guideline thing, than a personal … What's the harm in adding some comment on a really, really old forum topic? In this case it wasn't nonsense. Yeah, sig missing, but else? And I don't believe this leading to a flood of spam on that topic.
You don't have to reply to this, just musing … -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 08:50, June 26, 2017 (UTC)
Not offended at all, promise! Smiley.gif And it's more to do with trying to be consistent with maintaining the guidelines than whatever was actually written. I figure people can make new forums for new discussions. --Kelcat Talk 20:39, June 26, 2017 (UTC)


I consider these last article comments (and only contributions by that user) spam.

Unfortunately there's no "report" feature for these posts … -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 16:07, June 28, 2017 (UTC)

Deleted and blocked, thanks for letting me know! --Kelcat Talk 18:12, June 28, 2017 (UTC)

Category for Images

Hey whats the category tag for developer statements? -Seekers of Truth heraldry.pngHD3 (Talk) 02:43, June 29, 2017 (UTC)

I don't know that we even have one; I think I've seen most classified under User Images. It may not be a bad idea to create a separate category, though. --Kelcat Talk 03:03, June 29, 2017 (UTC)
That is what I was thinking. We've probably got enough of these clarification statements now that it would be actually useful.

-Seekers of Truth heraldry.pngHD3 (Talk) 03:43, June 30, 2017 (UTC)

Diverting Soldiers in the Frostbacks

An anonymous user keeps trying to change the mission time of Diverting Soldiers in the Frostbacks to something other than the policy of base time before any reductions. You may need to lock the page. DaBarkspawn (talk) 21:21, July 2, 2017 (UTC)

I'll keep an eye on it, thanks. --Kelcat Talk 22:53, July 2, 2017 (UTC)

I like your style …

… of responses. Icon wink.gif -- UserCCCSig.png -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 00:43, July 10, 2017 (UTC)

What is an abomination?

I know we've gone back and forth a lot on this with regards to Anders, but the more I think about it, the more I wonder. On Abomination, the definition is:

  An abomination is a creature created when a demon possesses a living 
  being with magical abilities. 

and Anders is listed on that page under Notable abominations.

So, Anders is definitely a living being with magical abilities. Is the issue whether or not Justice/Vengeance is a demon? In terms of actions, Anders certainly does awful things that he himself says he wouldn't have done if it wasn't for the malevolent presence inside of him. That sounds like a demon to me.

Let me know where the gap in this thinking is. DaBarkspawn (talk) 02:30, July 13, 2017 (UTC)

Anders is one of those special cases that aren't black and white, in my thinking. He was originally possessed by Justice, who is definitely a spirit. Which would definitely make Anders not an abomination. The grey area starts when Justice turns into Vengeance who is a demon, which is (if I remember right, I haven't read all the books) a unique situation. Anders still retains his humanity which abominations definitely do not. And it's been said by the developers before that it would be possible for Anders to be separated from Justice/Vengeance, which is also something that can't be done with abominations. So he's a special snowflake Icon wink.gif. I'm up to opening it to a wider debate with others, but he just doesn't fit the classical definition of abomination, so I don't think it should be in his infobox. The article does a clear enough job explaining the situation. --Kelcat Talk 02:40, July 13, 2017 (UTC)~

>> It was the consensus and a few members of the old administration had also posted threads on the old BSN forums asking for confirmation to the devs - D-Day and KingCousland specifically - I am not sure if they received any, but it seemed to resonate within the community that Anders is indeed an abomination and that Justice is a demon - also Anders specifically states that Justice and Vengeance are one after Tranquility, which seems to me that your general crusading against my revisions seems borne out of whimsy rather than of facts, especially given that I posted sources on it - Anders himself admits he is an abomination, and that Justice is a demon - now you're telling me that you are a better authority than Anders to describe what he is? Seems rather irrational, if not outright pathological to me. --Loub (talk) 02:42, July 13, 2017 (UTC)

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