Icons Edit

You'll have to teach me how to do that one day, or I will just copy and paste the code in the future. In the meantime though, thanks and might want to zip over to Honnleath and do that for the cheese knife. I tend to only work on one area a day to keep myself from getting burnt out, and right now I need to head out to the store if my car doesn't get stuck in the snow. Mictlantecuhtli 15:32, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

Howdy, I am trying to use Ico Codex Entry with the icon thing and it doesn't seem to work with it like it did when I edited Strange Wood and added an Axameter icon. Am I doing something wrong in naming the file, etc? Mictlantecuhtli 16:06, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Alright, I will just wait before using them then. Thanks. Mictlantecuhtli 16:16, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Quests... Edit

I never realized how many side quests there is... Polexian 15:47, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

It does very much so. I have this game for xbox 360 so I can't take any screen shots. Been trying to get it for the comp, but haven't been able to find it anywhere. It's all "SOLD" out if you know what I mean.. Polexian 15:51, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

Gifts Edit

Ok, so we need an easier way to do these gifts. My idea is that we put a variable giftto in the item info. For a gift to alistair (LOVE) we would do this.


for Alistair and dog


for Alistair, Dog, and Morrigan


For Alistair like and Morrigan Love


Then in a template we strip the letters one by one and put hearts for Caps letters and like for small letters and refuse for all letters not listed, put it in a sorted table and done! Polexian 19:55, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

[cc'd from Polexian]I have already updated the Gifts/accept, Gifts/reject, Gifts/plot and Gifts/accept, that model is just so you can see what it will look like. In fact the only change will be header/cells/ and the adding the itemini template. So there is no need of that.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 05:05, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Unused Images. Edit

You said most are there and not used so I had an idea... Look here. Polexian20:00, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

re: Larger Icons Edit

I meant for the Gifts/plot, Gifts/accept, Gifts/reject and Gifts/plot to be made larger. Not the icons. I love the mini icons the size that they are. They are adorable. -- tierrie talk contr 06:03, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Sure! No problem. I was stripping the article of the style format because its all built into the daotable class now. I must have accidentally stripped the font size from the article too. Cheers! -- tierrie talk contr 07:06, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Spoilers Edit

You might want to hold off on adding spoilers to pages until the policy has been nailed down. As it currently stands, we want to eliminate spoilers across almost all pages. In my mind there are perhaps 10 items worth of spoiler tags. Loleil might think there's more. Either way, we want to eliminate spoiler on pages on trivial things like unlocking specialization, where to find a particular item, or spell combinations and things that are part of the game mechanics. -- tierrie talk contr 07:03, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Codex Edit

Hi Hollowness. Thanks for your thoughts. Unfortunately, number icons won't work as codex numbering changes depending on installed DLC. It's worth thinking about having the generic codex icon on the codex info boxes, but I'm not wholly sure it's worth it as it would just be the same on every entry. Using the icon you have when codex items are listed on another page (eg Warden's Keep) could be very nice. However, thinking about images and icons in the codex is on my to-do list and I don't want to rush into a decision on this on isolation. Could you leave it with me to think about for a little while? I'm hoping to document the codex project in the next couple of days and get things clear in my own head, as well as make clear to others what's being done so they can look at the whole picture too. Zoev talk 11:26, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Probably should have mentioned - one reason I don't want to plough into this is that some codex infoboxes already have icons, depending on the codex subject. However, I'm not at all sure these work and was thinking of scrapping them anyway so I want to think a bit more about that. Zoev talk 11:28, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
Okay - your call! Though my feeling is that it would be better to do this as part of the codex project rather than doing work now and then re-doing it (if it were going to involve more than a couple of days's wait for me to get myself in order I'd perhaps have a different view!). I'd be delighted if you could get involved in the codex work - there's a lot to do in terms of making sure that codex entries are properly linked from other pages - but I don't want you to waste your time doing something that then has to be redone soon afterwards. By the way, am I right in thinking that your item lists work off an include from the item transformer? It would make sense to have a similar system for codex entries, which use a Template:CodexTransformer which is based on theItemTransformer. Zoev talk 11:45, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
I think I'm misunderstanding what you intend! I don't see how we can use the ItemTransformer template to include codex entries, as they don't use the ItemTransformer - just something quite like it. It would be great if you could leave me a message with an example of how you're planning to use the templates to display the codex entries so I can look at the code, perhaps that would be clearest? Thanks! Zoev talk 12:18, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, still not following. I'm sure I'm just being slow, but I think I need to actually see it in action (ie displaying a codex entry) to understand. Could you either pop an example of that on my talk page or, if it's simpler, direct me to an article where you've included codex info so I can get this straight? Thanks! Zoev talk 12:51, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
The CodexTransformer does include a style switch, so a template could easily be set up to display the codex entries as you want (you may even be able to reuse your existing template that displays items, if the relevant parameter names are shared between the codex transformer and the item transformer - in that case you should just be able to add a new switch to the heading of Template:CodexTransformer that calls your existing template). There should be no need to actually change the text of the codex entries. I really am happy to work up an example of this for you, though it will take me that couple of days I mentioned earlier to get round to it! Zoev talk 13:18, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
Ah, locations! There's another issue. And an area that needs a fair bit of work. Those currently don't use a transformer-style template (unless someone changed it whilst I wasn't looking!) so would need more work. I actually have a number of issues with locations that have been niggling away at me, but I've not got round to addressing. I'll think about those as well over the next couple of days! Zoev talk 13:48, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

How's this: Codex entry: Nug may refer to:

Disambig gray This disambiguation page lists articles associated with the same title.
If an internal link led you here, you may wish to change the link to point directly to the intended article.

Ico codex entry Codex entry: Alistair

I just made a few tweaks to the codex templates so they're compatible with your IconMini template. I also converted the codex infoboxes to use the icon you provided Smiley. Zoev talk 18:38, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Ooh, and on that latter point, is there any way you could replace the icon with one with a transparent rather than black backgound? That's beyond my image manipulation skills but I know it's possible! Zoev talk 18:39, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

I think it would be good to have an icon with a transparent backgrounds that would work on the infoboxes if you could manage that. As every icon is the same for the codex entries, I've only got it linked into the template rather than on individual pages, so it can be turned on and off in seconds. I'm going to leave it on for a little while to see if it grows on me. I'll do an overhaul of the codex templates once we have a finalized infobox format and the summary page format topic I started today has come to a conclusion, so the format of the codex right now is just draft anyway. Zoev talk
Brilliant, thanks! Though to keep things tidy, I've moved your new image to replace the old File:Ico_codex_entry.png rather than keeping both. Hope that's okay with you! Zoev talk 19:49, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
I'll take the blame if anyone objectsSmiley. Though in general, if an image isn't linked to any pages (or is only linked to pages you know about and are fine to change) then I'd not worry about overwriting an existing image if yours is better. The revert option is there in the unlikely event that someone objects, to your (my!) replacing an unused image. Zoev talk 19:58, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
I wouldn't say this about many things, but I think giving up might be the right thing to do, at least for the time being and outside the forums where everyone's voice is needed! It seems unavoidable, both in real life and on the web, that we occasionally come across people with whom every effort at communication seems doomed to failure. I've certainly had this experience before, so I know that it can be really frustrating: you keep thinking there must be something that can be done to fix it but each new effort at mending the situation instead exacerbates it! Sometimes backing off is all you can do. I remain convinced that misunderstandings are the only issue here - as a spectator I see you both trying really hard but somehow not quite managing to get on the same wavelength. As time passes, and we all work together on the wiki and get to know one another better I'm sure this issue will gradually disappear. Zoev talk
Of course I love you! And just now I was about to say it shouldn't need to be said, but of course it needs to be said! Zoev talk 23:37, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Comments Edit

sry... i just thought it's easier to read the other way around...

Is there a Rule page or anything? Or any page that teaches us how to do Fancy tables (like what you did on Money page) and stuff, i wanna learn.

another thing i wanna do (or maybe someone could do, lol..) is to put Numbers into that Total Armor Column on this page: Item Sets

Fycan 15:06, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

ItemMini and IconMini Edit

I saw that you're using both IconMini and ItemMini. Having multiple templates that do the same thing is a Bad Thing™. I love that you like the icons so much that you're expanding it to encompass other things too. But if they end up having roughly the same style, try to make them more generic and keep one template. It would make maintainance easier. And conceivable there will be a day years from now when I'm no longer an admin and you've moved on to another game. And some poor guy will have to come back and go through our templates and say, "what the hell is the difference between these two?". And then I'll have to email you and ask, "hey i know its 2050, but some guy has a question about your template". -- tierrie talk contr 20:03, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

So, did I ever tell you that you're amazing? Well, you are! Ding! -- tierrie talk contr 20:20, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Creature abilities Edit

Great news! Yes, it would be nice to have more detail, wouldn't it? But the info in those files is still useful to have. Zoev talk 13:13, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Project Bodahn / Merchants Edit

Howdy! You expressed interest in working on the Merchant Inventory section and I had just spent a few minutes and finished up Template:MerchantTableHeader and Template:MerchantTableRow. Its very different from the other items as its not a transformer. It works a little different but is not any harder to use. I put together a mockup for some of Bodahns items at my sandbox. That's all there is to it. You will find a partial Inventory map at Caridin/sandbox with some of the items mapped from the game id (gen_im_spc_dog_pnt_p05) and others unmapped. That's as far as Pwr905 has gotten and I don't think he's going to be able to finish it. You can find the mappings in the Toolset or you can obtain the data manually in-game. If you're interested in this bit, just say yes and its yours. -- tierrie talk contr 20:36, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

You can use the use the new MerchantTableRow template and delete the MerchantListRow later. Conceptually the thing is a table even if it doesn't look like one. You are welcome to claim credit for it if you wish. I'm working out a few bugs with the template. It shouldn't take long to fix. -- tierrie talk contr 20:54, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
For the moment don't worry about the cost scaling. Include the item, but don't worry about the scaling just yet. We can fix it or figure it out later. Almost everything in the armor/weapon/recipes are priced correctly - they are extracted from the data files. Others like consumables, gifts, etc might be incorrect as they were not extracted. For the time being, this is what we're going to go with. I only included the markup and markdown in the CharacterTransformer of Bodahn. You will need to enter the markup and markdown for the other merchants from Caridin/sandbox. -- tierrie talk contr 23:16, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
I don't understand what you're asking. So I am going to assume you're asking for value to be removed from the InfoBoxes. In this case, I think we should leave value as it is. One of the reasons someone might look up the item is to find out if they can afford it. And given the value they will be able to get the ballpark idea of how much it costs. However, I will hide the value in the InfoBoxes if/when the items itself has a "Availability" header where you can list

{{MerchantTableRow|item=Potent Lyrium Potion Recipe|merchant=Bartender}}
{{MerchantTableRow|item=Potent Lyrium Potion Recipe|merchant=Varathorn}}
{{MerchantTableRow|item=Potent Lyrium Potion Recipe|merchant=Figor}}

Once that is available, it will make the Value section obsolete, and then I will be in favor of hiding the value. -- tierrie talk contr 23:48, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

I'll take a closer look at Quartermaster. I suspect that the pre-Wilds and post-Wilds Quartermaster might be two different person. One way to find out is to check their sell price before and after the Wilds. If this is true - then we can make a Quartermaster (Shadow) or Quartermaster (Post-Wilds) and include just the markup and markdown in that character. Then hide everything via an includeonly tag so when someone visits that page, nothing shows up except for a "This page is a shadow copy of the Quartermaster after the Wilds, see X for the actual article". And then when creating the Merchant Row you can {{MerchantTableRow|item=Backpack|merchant=Quartermaster (Post-Wilds)}} -- tierrie talk contr 00:49, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
I fixed it. {{MerchantTableRow}} does a quadruple transform - it transform the item into value and iconmini, the merchant into markup and markdown. Template:RecipeTransformer was missing the iconmini transform. -- tierrie talk contr 01:20, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
What an annoying bug. I fixed it. The problem was that the Categories were also <onlyinclude>[[Category:Item]][[Category:Ingredients]]</onlyinclude>. So it never showed up in the page, but it was there - invisible. Maths fails when it's trying to multiply 200[[Category:Item]][[Category:Ingredients]] * 5. I think that's a problem with some other pages as well -- I'm going to go look for those bugs. -- tierrie talk contr 06:07, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
Re:Bodahn, that makes sense. I think they are two different unique characters. Just have the same name. I suspect Lord Dace is the same way - you can steal from him twice. It makes more sense to make the same character twice. Items included with ItemTransformer will show up as 0 DAO bronzepiece trans. This is a bug because Template:ItemTransformer inherits Template:ItemInfoBox which includes [[Category:Item]]. Someone's gonna have to go in and manually insert Category:Item to the items so I can finally remove it from the InfoBox -- tierrie talk contr 06:16, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Fade Shroud & Aura of Might details Edit

What are the details for these abilities? What doi they do? There is no mention of them on their wiki pages. Grimtoothy

Arcane Warrior Edit

Hey, thanks much for putting all that great stuff about the muscle mages on your user page. I'm definitely going to have to try a play-through with one and relive the good ole days of Diablo. DAO gold stackJellybug 04:47, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Equipment no longer categorized as items Edit

Just a quick reminder that per the discussion in Forum:Item categories equipment is no longer categorized as an item. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 07:24, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Hmm I think the problem has come from the fact that the armour sets shouldn't really be classed as plot items in my opinion (just left a message on the plot item talk page), with that in mind I would say you are all set to continue adding categories, just avoid the armour and weapons if possible. Thanks so much for all your hard work Smiley. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 07:43, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
Given that Armour and weapons don't use the Template:ItemTransformer Template:ItemInfoBox (they use Template:ArmorTransformer and Template:WeaponTransformer respectively) I'm sure they wouldn't be involved in this, and Tierrie himself made sure they weren't categorized as items. I can still double-check with him, but I really think you're fine to proceed without them, and if it's not you can always blame me ;). Friendship smallLoleil Talk 08:13, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Stealing: Profitable Targets Edit

Hello again. Sorry for bothering you. I've recently corrected an obvious typo/miscalculation in the Profitable Targets table (33+5=38, so it should be Stealing rank 1 rather than 2, of course). The problem is, the table got all messed up and 'undo' option does not seem to address this issue. I know you are not an 'official' editor, but you are surely skilled enough to handle the problem, not to mention you are online now :) Thanks in advance! IN 10:18, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Gosh, you are quick. Momentum + Haste (unbugged), I take it :-P And, seriously, thank you! :) IN 10:24, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, almost forgot... If you are able to correct the typo/miscalculation I've mentioned, I'd be extremely grateful. First row (Ostagar, Duncan), 'Notes' column: the text should read 'Rank 1', not 'Rank 2'. Thanks! :) IN 10:28, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

I see :) Thanks! IN 10:31, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Money Edit

Hi Hollowness, I hope you don't mind, but I renamed the forum topic you created on teh various money pages to Forum:Gold farming, Money, Currency, etc as it's now (hopefully) the main forum for general discussion of presentation of money info on the wiki. Thought I should let you know. Zoev talk 14:00, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Companions Edit

we are having a discussion on this here... Talk:Companions. Don't want you to miss out. Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 15:34, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Quest Page Edit

Would like to do a new layout on the quest page. What do you think? User:Polexian/Sandbox Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 04:00, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Money icon? Edit

Hi Hollowness! I've just beeen having fun adding your mini icons to The Hungry Deserter as part of a tidy-up of that page. It struck me that it might be good to have a cash icon so that money rewards can be added to the list and not look out of place. I had a go using the bronze coin pile (see the quest page), but there's no border around this icon. Do you think it's worth having a money icon independent of the DAO goldpiece trans, DAO silverpiece trans and DAO bronzepiece trans templates we already have? If so, then it would be great if you could create one that matches your other mini icons! Zoev talk 14:35, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Ooh, I don't know. I think I like the slightly flatter pile better in theory, but the taller pile probably looks better in the box (as it's squarer). Your call! Zoev talk 18:35, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Project World Map Quest/Encounter StandardizationEdit

I'll be getting started on this again soon, my computer was behaving oddly due to some new memory I put in. I removed it and now the game doesn't have anymore unexplained crashes so I can start back on the areas. Anything I need to do special besides just start using iconmini's? Mictlantecuhtli 22:21, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Looking at your review Edit

I was just looking on your review and I saw something you didn't put. You dont have to put this, but what about end game open world? Cause when I completed the game, I wanted open world gameplay regardless on the result, so I could have gotten other achievements, but instead I had to restart. Wouldn't that be a con for you? Just asking :) Kranitoko 23:30, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Shale Icons Edit

You are welcome :) BTW, I'm finished with quite a thorough Rock Mastery and Stone Aura chains talents testing process, so a whole bunch of new info and even a couple of damage calculation formulae is coming very soon: first to my home page, then to the Shale Talents section. That's why I decided to upload the icons, honestly :) IN 04:51, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

It's not your fault. Indeed, the problem is there is no detailed info at all concerning Shale talents: as far as I understand, it is a direct consequence of certain DLC data files being encrypted, thus blocking access to precise in-game formulae. That's the reason I decided to do some independent research, so to say :) Moreover, it can help some players to understand what exactly Shale is designed for (she looks big and strong, so people intuitively tend to use her as a tank or as a melee damage-dealer) IN 05:09, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Please note the Rock Mastery tree summary on my user page. I think Rock Mastery tree really needs a summary: forcing the poor gamers go through these calculations on their own is somewhat sadistic :) Also, please remove the +10% critical bonus from Rock Mastery in the tree general description: it is inaccurate. I'm starting to edit Stone Aura tree now: a whole lot of annoying little bonuses to calculate there, so I'll add a maxed out tree summary, too. IN 06:13, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll remove it myself, then. Unfortunately, I'm a complete noob as far as wiki editing is concerned :) IN 06:29, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Please help! I've successfully deleted the 10% critical chance, but I'm unable to remove the ' symbol after Rock Mastery talent in the general tree description :( IN 06:47, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Merchants Edit

It looks good for now. The important thing was just getting it up there. I will figure out the rest of the information should be displayed. And then we can go from there. -- tierrie talk contr 09:08, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

I didn't want to leave you in limbo - I'm fairly busy this week. I'm traveling to Texas for Valentine's and I have to make all sorts of plans for it. I also want to spend some time on the InfoBoxes too. I will try to get an update to Project Bodahn next week. -- tierrie talk contr 23:50, February 8, 2010 (UTC)
I added a new variable to the Template:MerchantTableRow which you can use like so {{MerchantTableRow|item=Rock Salve|merchant=Bodahn Feddic|quantity=2}}. -- tierrie talk contr 02:51, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
Are you suggesting to remove the quantity header? I read your sentence a couple of times and am still unsure of what you're asking. -- tierrie talk contr 20:07, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
I made it so that it will no longer wrap. Does that fix what you're asking? -- tierrie talk contr 20:23, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
This is a wiki - so there's no boss here. Just a few people who have been around longer and have had some experience with copy editing and stylesheets. I'll remove the header and see if it fixes what you're asking. -- tierrie talk contr 20:34, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Ahem, Hi there Edit

My name is Amenson and I was just wondering, how you get 100 hours of gameplay on a single playthrough? Granted, I have about 80 hours spread out over 3 playthroughs, but the most I can get is like 35, and thats with accepting and doing all quests, DLCs, and everything else. And what console are you using it on?

Take a break! Edit

This made me laugh for about five minutes. Mictlantecuhtli 21:52, February 8, 2010 (UTC)

DPL is now installed, check out what it can do. Edit

User:Polexian/Sandbox Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 22:54, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

Item transformer Edit

I've still been editing with pages not loading properly, so unfortunately I didn't see a problem. I'm still not sure what you were trying to say though. Without the item transformer the money making guide was being included in other pages (in particular the Mad Hermit)? If so, I'm curious as to why those two pages would overlap. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 00:11, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Got it. I wasn't aware of that change being made, but now that the money page is being used as a guide, I think it might be worth linking it to the currency page instead. And no you weren't rude, just little more curt than I was ready for first thing in the morning ; ). Friendship smallLoleil Talk 00:26, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
You twinkle above us, We twinkle below. Ah that is a quality song indeed. Thanks for that and glad things are sorted with the template. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 00:45, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Templates Edit

Not a problem, but don't you think one template should be used if possible instead of having a disappove and approve template ? Just a thought? Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 19:05, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

No worries or hard feelings I hope. :) Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 19:17, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Next time I'll put , have coffee first before reading. :) Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 19:32, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Revising In Game Look Edit

This is regarding Forum:New Concepts - In Game Look. I found a place where it might be useful to have an in-game look. Now, before you get super excited about it I want to see some style differences first. And I'm not making any promises - except that it seems like a good idea ;)

You only need to work on items instead of a style for all the categories (location, characters, etc). I compared what you have currently to what appears in game and I think you're kind of about half way there. If you can emulate the in game look entirely that would be best - rounded corners and all that. -- tierrie talk contr 20:41, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Here's a sneak-peak of the secret Project Boo. It's only up temporarily. -- tierrie talk contr 20:50, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
Hover over the link. -- tierrie talk contr 22:08, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
Try extracting the border from an in-game item, set the center to transparent and make it a png. I might be able to overlay it over the unbordered icons. -- tierrie talk contr 22:40, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
They will look hideous - and will need to be corrected. -- tierrie talk contr 23:09, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
Do you mind putting them into a sandbox? And re the ingame look - do you think you can make the height variable? Cut the background into three pieces, a top, middle and a bottom. The top and bottom will be static images, while the center can be on repeat-y. Does that make sense? -- tierrie talk contr 23:40, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
Great job on the border by the way! I have always wanted to do it, but never had the chance. You might want to see if you can replace InventoryIcon with that border instead ;) -- tierrie talk contr 23:41, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
I have the in-game font. But, there's a few issues with uploading it. First, wiki doesn't let us upload fonts. Secondly, I am not sure about the copyright on that font. I think its alright since its covered by the same license as the Toolset. I'm more concerned about the first method. Eitherway, use the current font you have. It looks fine. If we upload the font I can always manually change it via stylesheet. -- tierrie talk contr 00:17, February 12, 2010 (UTC)
I can fix the alignment later as well - when I switch to a stylesheet. The important thing is the variable height of the table so we don't have a super long tooltip for a gift. And also, since its a tooltip, we do not need links on it. -- tierrie talk contr 00:36, February 12, 2010 (UTC)
Actually the in game tooltip uses a slightly different format. You're using the in game inspect UI. Either way, the reason I want it to be variable is so that we do not need to scroll on overly long tooltips. I seem to recall that there were some tool tips that ran very long. To design one, you'd make a table with 3 rows. The first row - the header, would contain the name, icon, everything including the horizontal bar. The last row would be the footer and be empty except for the UI. And the middle row would be where the content is. Make the background repeatable and the table should resize according to their height. -- tierrie talk contr 00:44, February 12, 2010 (UTC)
I just put up a sample of the popup here with your style. It looks awesome. However, it looks like it needs a resizing to about 60%, and some transparency tweaks as well. I'll let you play around with it until you have a concept you like. Cheers! -- tierrie talk contr 02:07, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

Project Bodahn (Part II)Edit

Part 2 of Project Bodahn is a bit more complicated. Its a reverse link. On each item page - eg Elfroot, Recipes, etc, there should be an availability page. In that you would use the same merchant table to do this.. For example, Double-Baked Mabari Crunch Recipe page would have this section-

Name Price
Double-Baked Mabari Crunch Recipe
Rcp ico herbalism 2 Double-Baked Mabari Crunch Recipe
0DAO bronzepiece trans
Double-Baked Mabari Crunch Recipe
Rcp ico herbalism 2 Double-Baked Mabari Crunch Recipe
6DAO silverpiece trans 60DAO bronzepiece trans

Sounds good? -- tierrie talk contr 20:41, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Looks like I need a find a way to add the merchant name instead of listing the item names. I'll come back to this. -- tierrie talk contr 20:42, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
Yeap, new worms. I'll figure it out next week - I'm traveling for Valentine's so I won't be around this weekend. -- tierrie talk contr 20:47, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Approval Combined Template? Edit

Get your coffee and then come back..  :)

So Hollowness do you want to take your templates and put them into the Approval Template and let a switch statement control which heart to show like Tierrie suggested? Then after we get the initial template set up, we could then install the icon's for it. We could also change colornegative to be hard coded into the template or not, or we could rewrite both those codes to set the color green or red based on the number, positive number green, negative number red. Zero, white... or green.. What do you think?Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 02:36, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

Instead of having the heart thing in approves, why don't you modify approval that if you do this {{Approval|heart}} it prints the heart? Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 13:55, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

Keep it simple and easy to use. Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 01:31, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, so
Ico Appr Heart Heart approves (+5) now does what you wanted and I did another thing.
prints Ico Appr Heart Heart approves (+11). If you put a negative 11 it prints just the black heart Ico DisAppr Heart Heart disapproves (-11). and your
{{+|1}} is awesome! I suggested we delete approves and disapproves and use the combined template in the forum. I did not put the delete flag on your pages. You can do that if you want to since I don't know if you had your coffee yet. ;) , which without your approve and disapproves help wouldn't be where it is. I think with both of our work and teamwork, and the fighting in between we came up with a great idea. Also I started a forum I think you should look at. I'm talking about your templates + and - which was an awesome idea. Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 14:42, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

I do know the work with replacing a template. You do a special page of what links there, then you copy the entire code into notepad and do a search for the template name, replace what needs to be replaced and then re upload. If 4 people work on it, then you will only have to do 5 pages a piece.. Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 15:08, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

+X% Healing Received Bug Article Edit

Hi there! I have no idea how to add categories and links appropriate for such an article. Maybe it should be made into a sub-section in some other article concerning healing or gear modifiers? Although, admittedly, I have seen none... Anyway, feel free to move/merge/edit it as you find necessary :) IN 21:46, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, thanks :) IN 21:55, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

+ and - Templates Edit

I edited your templates with a flag of noparen in slot 2 so when I show icons with the number I can take out the parenthesis, but if you use it like you are you will not see any different. Hope you don't mind. Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 15:02, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

Thats fine, you do what you want to do. I didn't do any harm to your + and - Template, so I'll ask for approval... oh and the template approval was just started last week by me by request from Tierrie.
    I thought of a third job that might be interesting. We need an approval template like ColorPositiveStat. I see that there's more people adding approval changes to the wiki and they are mostly using Template:ColorPositiveStat and Template:ColorNegativeStat to represent that. I would like approval to be something like this {{Approval|Morrigan|+2}} to display +2 in color and maybe an icon? And if the approval was negative that color would be different. That way, we can do three things - one is to unify the way Approval is shown across the wiki (if we ever choose to use an icon, we need only change the template and all the Approvals will change). The second is that is to track where Approvals are used via the "What links here" tag. And finally we need to find a way to display approvals easily so that we don't have a list like this The_Golem_in_Honnleath#Result. 
    One suggestion is to template +2 Morrigan. 
    Another suggestion is that instead of the name - you can use an image of the party member like this

I really don't see the problem. it is better now, why don't you like better? Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 22:28, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

I'm just trying to get this thing to where it is easy for everyone to use. I guess patients isn't my strong suit. Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 22:37, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

DLC Edit

I know you probably have other things to do, but you seem to be a reliable gamer so I'd like to ask something. On the XBox, do I need Gold Live Membership to get the DLC? I ask because I don't know if a wireless connector would be useful for this and I don't want to waste money on something I can't use anyway. I've already made that mistake once. Anyway, please get back to me on this as soon as you can.-- 23:02, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, i am a PC user, I don't have an Xbox, try asking on the forums.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 23:03, February 14, 2010 (UTC)
You only need a silver membership to download DLC's, you need a gold one to play multiplayer games on xbox live. Silver is Free. Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 15:04, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

Apologies Edit

Sorry for reverting some of your edits, I didn't notice the new spoiler tag thing. --Deathwish124 11:34, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

Two things Edit

(1) Please help! :( The table in Lesser Warmth Balm got messed up completely. I swear I didn't touch anything, just added the technical information.

(2) Concerning your suggestion to merge Tanking: An Alternative Approach with Tank. I've explained in the first paragraph of the article why I think it would be counter-productive to add it as a third section to the Tank article: my starting assumptions are very different from those of Tank author(s). It's a different theory with different weight assigned to most stats and properties. People will just get totally confused by the lack of inner consistency in Tank article. I have had no problem contributing an alternative strategy for Shale as a sub-section in her section in Companion Strategies article, but there a situation was vastly different, as there were no conflicting theories present in the same article to confuse the potential reader. Talk page is not an option, IMHO: not many people ever bother to read those, and since I've put some effort into formulating this stuff, I naturally don't want it to get buried there. IN 22:57, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

(1) Okay, I'll take it into account. No rich text editor :)

(2) No problem, I'll drop a message to Loleil. Hopefully, we'll reach some compromise on the matter. I fully understand the reasons: it's obvious no strategy guide, especially an unorthodox one, can be objective. However, the existing Tank page is no better in this respect. Currently, it reflects the point of view of its author, not the objective truth (if we assume such thing exists). Anyway, thank you for pointing it out, I'll discuss it with Loleil. IN 23:21, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

Regarding your recent problems with Polexian Edit

I'm sorry to hear that the wiki has been causing you stress. Looking at the links you've provided I'd say that there's been a bit of a communication breakdown. I'm certainly not seeing any malice directed towards you. Possibly Polexian appears a little frustrated, but that is all. From what I've seen about the content of your dispute, I can see both points of view. I can understand that Polexian has edited your templates with the idea that they are community property, but I can also understand that it would be nice to be consulted about it as you may have your own plans for them. I'm not sure if there are other problems, but this needn't be a big issue.

I saw the message he left on my talk page too, but I didn't interpret it as an attempt to try and "go behind your back." I saw it as an attempt to remove himself from a situation that was becoming a little stressful. He did sound a little annoyed, but if he had truly wanted to write me a message without your knowledge, he could have written me an e-mail which he has not. I would encourage you both to maybe give the template discussions a break until Tierrie is back from holidays. I wouldn't want to see any templates implemented until Tierrie has had look either.

Whenever I get a little stressed out by the wiki I try to remember that the regular editors are all volunteers who come here to try and improve the site. So if they say or do something that contradicts what I believe, or is even just plain wrong, I try to remember that they are likely coming from a good place, not trying to cause me problems. If there is a difference of opinion, I always think that it can be better resolved if both parties stay calm. The somewhat heated message you left on Tierrie's talk page doesn't seem to be warranted given the interactions I've seen and messages like that tend to escalate the situation. But I'd encourage you to have your bubble bath, take a deep breath. I really don't think Polexian has meant to insult you and I'm sure you guys can resolve this and continue to be great editors Smiley. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 06:33, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

So is the crux of the issue that you would expect Polexian to consult other editors and admins when making significant changes to widely used templates? On reflection, it might be worth setting down something official asking editors to consult before making changes to templates, to differentiate editing templates from editing articles. If this is the central problem between the two of you I'm happy to leave him a message asking him to ask first. With regards to your future edits, editing should be a entertaining pastime so it makes sense to stick to activities that you find enjoyable. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 08:57, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
I wasn't meaning to imply that you were the only one who doesn't want editors to make changes to templates without consulting, I just wasn't sure what the root cause of the problem was initially and obviously if you see a problem I appreciate you fixing it ;-).
I've just left a message on Polexian's page, and am going to amend the editing guidelines to make things clearer. I've also asked Polexian to try and resolve things with you and would hope you can hear anything he has to say so that both of you can put this issue behind you. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 10:51, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Our ArgumentEdit

I am sorry about this. I stepped over the line and disrespected you. I love working with you and don't want to look our work relationship to this. Please forgive me. Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 11:17, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Gifts Page SuggestionEdit

I know you worked really hard on the gifts page, but I would like to change the mass list with your initial ok, I would ask the admins for the ok. I have wrote it up here. User:Polexian/Gifts I hope you like it. Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 21:53, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Re; Ostagar (Quest) vs Ostagar/Return to Ostagar Edit

When a page name has a forward slash - like Ostagar/Return to Ostagar, that page is automatically created as a child of the other page. For example, Alistair/Dialog would have back links to Alistair. With that in mind, I think that if there was a place that is a subset of Ostagar, then I feel that it would make good sense to make it a child of that page. For example, Location/Sub-Location. Perhaps Deep Roads/Ortan Thaig. On the other hand, Return to Ostagar is a quest, and making Return to Ostagar a child of Ostagar would make it a different "style" from the rest of our quests. So, I feel like it should remain Return to Ostagar (Quest). Its the standard disambiguation naming method that wiki uses and we need to stick to it. -- tierrie talk contr 22:26, February 16, 2010 (UTC)


If {{t|+}} and {{-}} are not used, you are free to redirect them to {{ColorPositiveStat}} and {{ColorNegativeStat}}. But, I don't think you should go through the pages to change them, or delete {{ColorPositiveStat}} and {{ColorNegativeStat}}. Here's why. There's also a {{ColorNeutralStat}}. And, its a waste of time. In the past we had to reclaim some templates - rename certain templates and move others. You did a lot of good work here. The main reason is syntactic. We wanted to eliminate one naming convention for another - instead of locationInfobox, we wanted LocationTransformer. These sort of changes are good because they give the articles additional technical abilities. Whereas, in this case, it doesn't change anything.

And most importantly, {{t|+}} and {{-}} are symbols and there might be uses for these in the future that needs to be a plus and minus.

The bottom line is its not a big deal, and if you want to change it, make it a redirect instead. -- tierrie talk contr 22:26, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Welcome Back Edit

Thanks! I just took a short trip to visit my gf for Valentine's but I'm back now. I see that you guys have been giving Loleil a hard time. Com'on people! She's the nicest admin around. Why can't you guys wait for me to come back before starting a ruckus. :) Kidding! I'm glad she sorted it out. Cheers! -- tierrie talk contr 22:51, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

RE: Project Bodahn Edit

Feel free to make any changes to the templates as you see fit. Your updates have been spot on and I trust you to do what you think looks best. -- tierrie talk contr 23:10, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

RE: Project BooEdit

I like your most recent update. Did you figure out variable table lengths? -- tierrie talk contr 23:10, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing the template. Edit

Thanks for fixing the template - you were just a tad faster than I was. (Unfortunately, loop problems do not show up in preview mode, so I couldn't see it until my initial save.)  —Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 02:25, February 18, 2010 (UTC)


Thank you, this works much much better. Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 03:01, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Template Problems Edit

Unfortunately I'm not sure what's going on with Dwarf Commoner Origin, and the Dust Town Home either. I originally checked out the home page because it was being categorized as a walkthrough, so somehow the categories are getting transferred as well. I wish you luck on your problem solving. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 05:46, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Boo! I love the rare occasions where you can find simple fixes. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 06:03, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
Yay! I love the rare occasions where you can find simple fixes. ; ). Friendship smallLoleil Talk 06:06, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Approval Edit

Hi Hollownewss. Sorry I've not been around for the past week - I'm back now though. I do love the new approval icons you left me a message about, but got completely lost in Forum:Approval so can't work out what the latest/agreed template for approval is. I certainly like the nice simple hearts/broken hearts with names and numbers and no character face icons but will go along with whatever has been decided already. I'm planning to reread the forum more carefully later to work out what that is! Do drop me a message if there's anything specific you want me to take a look at. It's going to take me a while to catch up with developments, and I really want to get my own lore project moving again! Zoev talk 14:53, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I like your simpler-looking template without character icons too! However, as I've not been around for the discussion I'm not going to weigh in and try to upset things at this late stage, which is why I'm leaving this note here rather than officially on the forum. Frankly, as long as there is a template, and all approval info is put into the template, changing the way it looks at a later date if we think the better of it becomes a more-or-less trivial task. So I think you should just give yourself a pat on the back for motivating all this. Zoev talk 00:10, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Hi Hollowness, I'm sorry I seem to have come stomping into what seems to have been an upsetting topic for you. I probably should have kept my mouth shut until I had a better understanding of what's been going on. (And the number of times I've had to say that in my life, you'd think I'd have learned better by now!) For me, whilst I'm not massively keen on having little people icons, I see that as a pretty minor quibble. The important thing - and the thing you started - is to have a consistent, template-based approach to representing approval across the wiki, and with my admin hat on I'm not willing to delay that objectively big win for the sake of what, when it comes down to it, is my subjective opinion on what looks better. It's just sometimes the case that people can listen to one another, respect one another's opinions, and yet still disagree. That's what I see happening in this case, and given that such situations are tricky and Tierrie's been the admin on the scene, I'm not going to butt in and confuse matters. I just wanted to let you know that, as a private individual, my aesthetic sensibilities coincide with yours, but I think we should concede gracefully on this one and look for bigger battles to win elsewhere! Zoev talk 00:40, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
I'm sorry I appear to have made things worse rather than better. That's my fault for wading in with a half-understanding of what the issues are and what's been happening, and is exactly what I don't want to do with the wider debate about the approval template, especially against my judgement of what the priorities are - ie getting approval info into a template ... any template. I really hope that in the longer term you won't feel that this disagreement means your contribution to the wiki isn't appreciated. Hell, people disagree with me all the time and yet still think I'm wonderful (or so I tell myself and, damn it, I believe it too!) Zoev talk 01:22, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
I am just digging a hole for myself here, so this is going to be my last word on this topic - though of course you should feel free to have your last word too! If I had been around when the debate about the format was still open I would have expressed my opinion, but I wasn't. And given a decision has been made, and one that I can live with, I don't want to reopen the debate and it would simply be confusing for me to now give my views without any intention of reopening the debate. This has nothing to do with being worried about negative feedback in general: it's because in my judgement my butting in now would be a bad idea and would deserve negative feedback. I "privately" let you know my feeling on the aesthetics was the same as yours as I thought it might make you feel better, but it seems I've just reopened the wound and I'm sorry about that. Zoev talk 01:50, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Transformer Edit

I just saw your messages. I had a dinner appointment that I had to go to halfway through the project. Thanks for noticing. -- tierrie talk contr 04:53, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Congrats! Edit

Congratulations for being the first member of the editing team to have made five figures worth of edits Smiley. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 06:10, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Location Icons Edit

I'll see what I can do tomorrow. -- tierrie talk contr 08:43, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Creature infobox Edit

Hi Hollowness, you should now be able to change the template. Let me know if not - I'll have done something wrong! Zoev talk 16:12, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Creature abilities Edit

Hi Hollowness. Good question. I'm really not sure the best way to go. Your new look page is much better, but I can see that info about when creatures will use specific abilities might be helpful in helping come up with tactics for beating them. That's not very helpful is it? Let me try again. Since all the information about tactics is in the toolset files, I don't think we need to worry overmuch about removing it from the few places it appears in the wiki as it could be readded later as part of a systematic effort. The number of enemies the info is likely to be helpful for is, in my view, pretty limited. Therefore, I'd be tempted to remove it in favour of presenting the information in your new tables. Where the information is likely to be useful is for tough boss fights, which usually have startegy sections/pages or info on the quest page. The info about when the boss is likely to pull out certain attacks could go there: Loleil was tidying up some of the strategy info not that long ago, so her views would be really helpful here. I'll drop her a message and ask her to take a look. Zoev talk 13:08, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Great editting! Edit

Is this an actual person? Silly question. But I notice how many articles you touch up, including a few of mine. I take it you are a moderator. Well the changes you make are just great! You've taken some of the things I've added and made them more correct, or, just look better. I don't know how you do it all! Do you have time to play the game? Bonesince1997 20:47, February 23, 2010 (UTC)Bonesince1997

Of course she's an actual person, though, to be honest, I strongly suspect she's a vampire. Probably a very powerful one, since she seems to stay active during daytime, too. Besides, take a closer look at her avatar. As for great editing: it's hard to disagree. She is both unbelievably prolific and extremely competent. IN 00:13, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

I suspected as much. Bonesince1997 18:19, February 24, 2010 (UTC)Bonesince1997

Vampire, I have been told that many many times, besides my usually awake at night, sleeping through the day, pale skin and dark hair, hunger for blood...eeerrr I like my steak rare :P. But anyways, wait, What about my avatar?  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 21:50, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
Nothing wrong with it, I guess. It just looks somewhat seductively vampiresque, so to say. IN 22:04, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
Ah, it was made in my 100px by 100px avatar making days (an old obsession), I have tons of them just mostly on my other computer. Most of the brushes and layers are indeed darkish (all with Johnny Hollow Lyrics on them (Oh, yes the band that inspired my name, I suggest 'Riddle me this' (if you can answer the riddles you get free music downloads (I know all of them if you need help)))). You should see my 'sunlight and toxin glitter fed' one, let see if I can find it.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 22:22, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, this one is truly vampiric-looking :) IN 21:52, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

Just wanted to add my personal thanks for keeping an eye on my edits, and cleaning up after my messy self. Thank you Hollowness!FR 02:04, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Arcane warrior Edit

Hey been looking at your guide for AW really helpful im currently similar gear to your light AW build to solo nightmare mode. it owns xD

Hey Hollowness, I was looking at your guide and I thought I'd mention you might want to include the whole Evon the Great's Mail with the Wade's Superior Dragonscale Armor Set bonus combo. For the loss of 50% fire resistance (who cares..), 25 mana, and 1.5 Armor you gain a 10% dodge bonus, a +10 missile defence bonus, +1 health regeneration in combat bonus, and a total of 16.7% less fatigue over the Dragonbone Plate set (making it a viable option :D ).

Nice guide BTW,

Lufos 17:32, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Well it's 7.5 less armor without Evon's mail, but you do keep the drastic reduction in fatigue.

I don't know if this helps but, I have only personally seen Evon's mail and the Felon's Coat appear after doing roughly 3 main questlines before asking for the second drakeskin set. Whether the game checks how many treatise allies you have recruited or it is based on a game completion % I do not know. I generally don't skip/put-off sidequests so I have a large portion of the game completed by that point. Lufos 17:59, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Roger that, just thought I'd mention it because it makes good solo gear for an AW (atleast in my experience). I have another AW about to do the urn as the third questline (having done most of the ARL of Redcliffe (felon's coat discussion says you only have to deal with connor as i'm sure you know), and all of Broken Circle). I'll let you know if it DOESN'T show up. Lufos 18:26, February 26, 2010 (UTC) (P.s. I like the new addition. I actually never considered making a dual-wield AW like that before. Usually go heavy solo or a light nuker spec. I think I'll try that next)

Companion plot skills Edit

Well, I'm caught a bit off-guard here. Relying on the wiki, I've been thinking 75% and 90% skills give +3 and +4 attribute bonus, respectively. However, it does not seem to be the case. It's +4 and +6 for all companions, not only for Loghain, I think. Can you check this in-game, please? I'm currently working on my laptop, no DA:O installed here... Just use that zz_addapproval script to make it easier. IN 02:08, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, enabling console can be quite time-consuming. So it's not worth your effort, I'll check it tomorrow. Thanks! :) IN 02:27, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
It's not too complicated, just potentially time-consuming. Again, thanks anyway :) IN 02:41, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Your template advice Edit

Thanks for walking me through the template code for approval, I'll use that in the future (or try to). As a side note though, when trying to edit the Village Under Siege page, I opened edit for the section, and then clicked on the little puzzle piece for the template, which popped up with the +blah Approval and I simply highlighted the 4 and replaced it with a 2. That's why I couldn't figure out where the space was coming from. :/ Fritti Tailchaser 23:31, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Regarding problems in Forum: Approval Edit

It's a shame that the approval discussion has once again made you unhappy. Looking at the forum discussion, although it is clear that you two disagree, I haven't seen anything in that forum that crosses the line of our code of conduct and Jmjimmy expressed a desire to move forward today, and commented not too long ago that he is "trying to build a bridge, [and] let you know that your input is valued" [1]. If there are specific comments that you think are unwarranted, it could be fruitful to bring them up and see what prompted Jmjimmy to make them.

If you enjoy editing here I wouldn't let one template discussion dissuade you. You've put in a huge amount of work into the site,and the wiki is better for it. Just a couple of days ago you had people spontaneously thanking you for your work, so I would encourage you to focus on that rather than a minor disagreement with one user over one template. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 02:57, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

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