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Buckeldemon

  • My occupation is overcomplicated bad English, babbling, unsuitable use of vocabulary
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Loleil (talk) 08:00, August 1, 2018 (UTC)


Rashomon is a style of storytelling where the same event is recounted by several characters, and the stories differ in ways that are impossible to reconcile. It shows that two or more people can view the same event quite differently. The author invites the audience to hear them all out and then compare and contrast these divergent points of view. Sometimes the work provides no definitive answer as to what actually happened. Typically they involve the characters heavily praising themselves and/or other parties involved, while demonizing others.

Examples include the Kurosawa movie of the same name, Luke and Kylo Ren's different version of when Luke entered his nephew's cabin in The Last Jedi, the different accounts of the Battle of Red Mountain in Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind. And in the case of Dragon Age, the two different origin stories of the Darkspawn. One story says that the mages turned the Golden City black with their own corruption, and were cast out as the first Darkspawn. Another story says that the city was already black, and corrupted the mages.

Solas's claims about his fellow mages seem far too biased to be taken as truth. So I think we should find other accounts written during the days of Elvehnan that tell different stories. What if in say, Falon'Din's account, he claims that the wars he fought were not for vain glory, but to stop Mythal from stealing the power of the other mages, and that she had manipulated them into joining her? Or in Gilla'nain's version, she claimed that the creatures she had created were mostly failed creations that turned out evil and were trying to slay the Halla? So with Andruil's help, she saved the Halla, and thus was rewarded with aphosis over them? Note that even these stories would be biased. It's all up to the player. Godzillavkk 6/11/19 10:54

RE: Possible Edit War coming up Edit

I’ve edited the page with what is hopefully an acceptable compromise, & redirected the edit warring users to the talk page.
UrsuulTalkAdminDate3:21 PM Thursday, June 27, 2019 (UTC)


RE: About the IhW/ vs. CotJ topic Edit

I understand your frustration in this case and I appreciate the feedback. There's always an inherent 'conflict of interest' problem when I am involved in heated discussions that I am also supposed to moderate. But I guarantee that I had no intention to influence anyone's opinion when I stepped in. I simply saw that there was some tension and wanted to resolve it. This question is usually posted by new users and first time players and if their question immediately leads to a fight, they probably won't come back. I do like your idea of being proactive about it. I have done that in the past when this question came up and I should probably do it every time if I catch it early enough, since this topic is basically guaranteed to lead to a larger argument.

As for Ezzy, he is certainly not a troll, though his manner can be provocative. But what he says is usually well within the guidelines, so just try not to let it get to you.

--Warden Nuggins (talk) 11:38, June 28, 2019 (UTC)

"The ship does not go anywhere without TIM's approval/consent, or to turn it around, it does not go anywhre if TIM does not want it."

The ship appears to be under the control of Joker & EDI, neither of whom answer directly to TIM. So he definitely does not need to give consent for each and every destination. As for it not going anywhere TIM doesn't want it to, we're never given a chance to test this. The only place TIM wouldn't want the Normandy to go is Cronus Station. Otherwise any destination the Normandy may have either benefits Cerberus or at least doesn't harm it.

"The alignment of morals with regards to Cerberus appears muddy to me. Sometimes, "Paragon" is questioning TIM's, methods sometimes it is absolving them."

That's true, the "anti-Cerberus" dialogue doesn't always line up with paragon or renegade. It is there, though.

"Miranda usually does not give more useful info then smug or non-informative on-liners. If I remember right, all she does is saying that "they aren't sooo bad" and that Shep should trust them. Very convincing, given that Miranda is a -walking trust issue-. Do you buy all those "It was just a rogue cell" excuses?"

I believe that she believes it. Obviously Miranda is a Cerberus apologist, but that's kind of the point of her character. And it doesn't change the fact that Shepard -can- express concern to her and others about Cerberus.

"First, all we have is some vague blathering from TIM about "them bugs killin' humanz!11" and Shepard passively already signs up during the intro, i.e. why is there no option to tell Jacob and Miranda to go f*ck themselves and steal the shuttle?"

The plot of the game is what is it. Besides, does Shepard even know how to fly the shuttle? And even if he did, where would he go? I don't think those things can travel very far through interstellar space. Unless Shepard could reach a relay, he'd just run out of fuel and die in the middle of nowhere. It's not clear where the Lazarus Station is, but I doubt that it's right next to a populated colony. In fact, it was probably deliberately built far away from any colony or relay.

Note that the first place they go to after the Lazarus Station is Freedom's Progress, where Shepard does in fact see visual proof of the Collectors abducting colonists. We are told that -hundreds of thousands- of humans have been abducted. The Collectors are literally an existential threat. In the face of that, working with (or even for) Cerberus is clearly the lesser evil.

"Secondly, we also get no opportunity inboth ME2 and 3 to question TIM's "uplifting humanity"/"humanity #1" BS."

I actually don't think it's BS. He appears to truly want what's best for humanity. At the expense other species, sure, but still.

"But where's the option to point ot that he's a frickin' spazi nazi commanding an army of Mengeles?"

I think the organization became much worse after TIM implanted Reaper tech in himself, thereby becoming indoctrinated. That doesn't happen until after the Suicide Mission, and by then Shepard doesn't work for or with Cerberus. Prior to that it appeared to be a black ops shadow organization with a human supremacist ideology. Bad news yes, but not space nazis.

There's also a scene at the end of ME 3 that shows that TIM deliberately filled the Normandy 2 with sympathetic faces. Despite this, there are characters in ME 2 who do point out the problems with Cerberus.

"Why is Shepard just killed off for no apparent reason?"

In order to justify the gameplay changes between ME 1 and 2. An experienced Spectre shouldn't be level 1...unless he was just reborn as a cyborg. Also, the cyborg aspect plays into the whole man vs. machine theme and the ending of ME 3.

"...because everybody else is suddenly either stupid or apathetic."

If by everybody else you mean the Council and the Alliance, the Council was shown to be stupid and apathetic in ME 1. They're even stupider in ME 3. That has nothing to do with Cerberus. It did bother be how dumb the Alliance suddenly became though. Luckily they grow their brains back by ME 3.

"We also never see anything positive that Cerberus could have done."

Were we ever supposed to? At no point does the game paint them as good guys. They're just the less bad guys. This seems to be an issue with you. Just because the PCs are forced to work for/with horrible groups doesn't mean they support those groups. In both ME 2 and Inquisition, the PC is stuck choosing between pure evil and only 95% evil (Ceberus doesn't go pure evil until ME 3). It's a shitty choice, but the answer is obvious.

"Only difference is that, by ME3, TIM managed to pull a fleet and a clone army out of his butt."

He pulled it out of the Collector Base. Silver Warden (talk) 02:44, October 4, 2019 (UTC)


"Besides, EDI is shackled and any "requests" from TIM override whatever command Shepard may give."

Yes, EDI is shackled, which means that she has no physical control over the ship. Joker does (until he unshackles her). There are only two instances where TIM arguably "overrides" Shepard (Horizon and the Collector Ship). In neither case do I believe he literally controls the ship. The player is forced to go to those places, but Shepard is merely convinced to do so.

"I found Miranda's end-game twist to be quite a WTF moment. I mean, she's constantly cheerleading beforehand and all of a sudden she recognises that she might be thrown under the bus as well and wants to leave?"

No, TIM crossed a line when he insisted that Shepard not destroy the Collector Base. She saw how monstrous the place was in person. After that, she could no longer work for him. It doesn't matter whether or not Shepard spares the base. The fact that TIM even wanted to save it was enough to convince her to leave.

"I remember that you said Velanna's change of heart in Awakening was unrealistic."

Velanna is a mass murderer. Miranda isn't. Her character isn't morally irredeemable.

"Also, do you remember that shuttle ride into nowhere just before the crew gets abducted due to the Reaper IFF?"

It's not literally nowhere, it's just nowhere spefic. They couldn't give an actual location because the Normandy could be anywhere in the Galaxy at that point. What they don't do a good job of explaining is why, exactly, does every single squadmate plus Shepard have to leave but not any of the Normandy's crew? What, the Reaper IFF won't work if people who are actually good at shooting are onboard?

"Yes, we are -told-. By TIM."

The video proof on Freedom's Progress is at the very least enough for Shepard to stick around long enough to verify TIM's claims. That doesn't take very long. The recent loss of multiple human colonies is literally broadcast on the news in Omega and the Citadel. Shepard learns that TIM isn't straight up lying about the Collectors on Freedom's Progress, and shortly afterward he learns that he isn't even exaggerating.

"And we don't get real proof that this in any way connected to the Reapers until the Collector Ship mission or, if you are generous, Horizon."

That's kind of beside the point. The Collectors needed to be stopped regardless of whether or not they were working for the Reapers.

Besides, TIM and Cerberus are at least willing to admit the Reapers are real and need to be stopped. Other than Anderson, the Council and the Alliance will do neither.

"What he "thinks" is best. He does not appear to listen to anyone. He's always right (TM)."

Well of course he has character flaws, he's an antagonist.

"I would not wonder if the other species would crack down on the humans for not caring to get rid of Cerberus in a sufficient timeframe."

Up until ME 3, Cerberus was not enough of a threat for the Council to even bother sending a Spectre after them. Shepard only stumbles onto them because they kidnapped and murdered an admiral. They definitely wouldn't start a war over them.

"They complain how they are ignored by the Council government though they got recognition and their citadel embassy in record time (compare that to the volus, which were instrumental in setting up galatic finance and are still sharing a room with the elcor) and are spreading all over the galaxy, getting involved in everything."

Yes, racist and racist-adjacent humans lack the proper perspective. This is actually an instance a good writing, not bad writing.

"I fail to see a change between ME2/3."

Really? You don't see the difference between using normal soldiers (Pre-ME 3) and turning literally all of their troopers into quasi-husks (ME 3)? You don't see a difference between covertly planting operatives on Omega and taking it over by force? You don't see the difference experimenting on a few individuals and building a facility that may as well be space Auschwitz on Horizon? You don't see a difference between murdering a few people to cover up some secrets and straight up attacking the Citadel?

I don't think Cerberus got stupid in ME 3. I think TIM did away with any pretense of subtly once he got his hands on the Collector Base.

"Oh, come on, that's a a lame excuse and a lame way to do it."

How so? The combat changes between ME 1 and 2 are much bigger than the changes between 2 and 3. The developers felt they needed everyone to be at level 1 again. But you're playing a character who should be level 50+, how do you justify that? A death and resurrection is one way. Sure, it's heavy-handed, but that does not automatically equal lame. And it works well thematically, by playing to the man vs. machine theme and cranking up the Jesus metaphor.

"If the man vs machine aspect did play a role in ME2, it was barely brought up"

They might as well have been screaming it at the top of their lungs in the Overlord DLC. Elsewhere in the game it's more subtle. The theme does get lost when fighting all those mercenary groups early on. But it crops back up whenever you face the Collectors, and it returns big time in the Suicide Mission. The final boss is basically a giant, legless terminator.

"The stupid part for the council is somewhat debatable regarding ME. Of course the Council is more likely to believe their "top agent" then a PTSD-afflicted spec ops soldier of a species who are regarded as galatic upstarts."

They aren't stupid for disbelieving Shepard initially, they're stupid for continuing to disbelieve him. And they're really stupid for grounding the Normandy.

"That they don't rally their fleets to "save earth" in ME3 is somewhat understandeable as well. Why should they do that if their own world are attacked, because humans are special?"

No, because the Reapers think they are special. Anyway, it's not that they don't rally their fleets to save Earth. It's that they don't immediately agree to throw everything at building the Crucible.

"Oh, and I never had Udina chosen as councilor"

Does anyone, ever? Shooting Udina is one of the best moments in the entire series.

"Why do NPCs try to convince Shepard about them being "not sooo bad" then?"

They're trying to convince Shepard of that, not the players. If they manage to convince some players that Cerberus is "not so bad", that's on them. Unless they didn't play ME 1, I guess. But even without having played it, it's obvious that Cerberus is super-shady. They're just better than the Reapers/Collectors.

"...Tela Vasir's last words, i.e. berating Shepard for a choice that the -player- does not make. Feels like a kick in the teeth to me, honestly."

I think that's kind of the point. Not everything in the game is supposed to make you feel good. Cerberus is bad news and you should feel bad for working with/for them. But that doesn't mean that doing so is the wrong decision. Shepard - and perhaps the player - has to sacrifice his conscience for the greater good. And honestly, of all of things he winds up sacrificing, that is the least of them. Shepard can cause the extinction of three different sapient peoples. He shouldn't get to walk away from all of this feeling squeaky clean.

"In both cases, the player helps that organisation achieving a debatable goal - restoring the Chantry for non-humans/non-believing humans and letting TIM get his hands on Reaper tech, i.e. the Collector Base. The colonists are an odd piece, as TIM clearly does not care about lives lost as long as he gets his plans done. I suspect it is more of a PR motive."

TIM does not care about the individual lives lost, but he does care about the human race. And stopping the Collectors from exterminating it is a good thing, regardless of whether or not he cares. The fact that Cerberus ultimately benefits is beside the point.

As for the Chantry, it is restored as a side effect of what the Inquistor does. The Inquisitor saves all of Thedas from dying or becoming blighted. Again, that's obviously a worthy cause.

"I'm usually not particularly fond of the Chantry, but for Cerberus, the Qun probably would be a better comparison"

The Chantry is better than Cerberus, which is better than the Qun. The Qun is more akin to the Reapers.

"Still does not explain how it manages to build all that stuff if I blew it to pieces."

It wasn't vaporized. Sometime between ME 2 and ME 3, Cerberus goes through the Omega-4 Relay and salvages what's left/takes over the intact base.

"Besides the "But Cerberus got Reaper tech (TM)!" excuse that some people field to hand-wave everything is getting lame after some time."

It's not an excuse, it's an explanation. If you don't like it that's fine, but that doesn't make it any less true.

"I wonder why so many people are constantly harping about ME2 being "the bestest game evar""

They probably just haven't played Origins. It is the best space sci-fi RPG though, and potentially the best sci-fi RPG.

"while overlooking all the inconsistencies with the first installment"

Which are...?

"ME2 rather poor main plot."

You don't like be forced to work for Cerberus, I get it. That doesn't make the plot bad. It's just not to your taste.

"TIM is equally guilty the last two things"

The first thing yes, but that's a plot contrivance. The second not so much. He does not constantly change the topic. He's actually pretty focused.

"TIM is equally guilty the last two things, in spades, and is instead heralded as a "brilliant, charming (ahem...) antagonist"."

I never found him charming, exactly. But he is brilliant - both in game and brilliantly written.

"Which is odd thing to say, if one assumes that players are not meant to go "yessir" to an antagonist, or did I miss something?"

You missed something. The fact that the players can, initially yessir him is because he's an evil/treacherous mentor. It's a somewhat uncommon story archetype, but Bioware hardly invented it. At no point are you supposed to think TIM is a kindly Obi-Wan. You're supposed to be suspicious of him throughout ME 2, you're supposed to expect him to betray you.

Shepard, however, is NOT the player. Shepard may or may not see it coming, depending on who he is, but that's beside the point. TIM is obviously a lot smarter and more well informed than Shepard. So of course he might be able to trick him.

"ever tried to have Miranda die during the Sucide Mission?"

No, I focus on killing Jacob. Miranda can die in ME 3.

"The only way to get her killed reliably is having her non-loyal "butt" in Shepard's squad during the final part at the baby Reaper."

She'll also die if she's not loyal and is left behind to "hold the line" while Shepard goes to abort the Reaper.

"You might argue about the multiple instances "holo dialogues" in ME2 (Why I cannot simply hang up on him?)"

TIM does appear to have control of the QEC, at least. Shepard can't just call him whenever, perhaps he can't hang up either.

"while the Eva-Bot merrily hacks the data and Ashley/Kaidan getting way to close to "her" instead of shooting"

She has shields. Shooting at her would just alert her to his/her presence, and she might not even have to stop hacking. But if he/she gets close enough, they can deliver a point blank shot that might deal enough damage to bypass the shields.

"Then we have a minor example in Priority:Sur'kesh, with the Salarians, who should have -centuries- more experience with galaxy-wide dirty black ops, being totally surprised by the Cerberus assault."

Did Cerberus manage to replicate Normandy's stealth tech? Because other wise yeah, there's no reason for them to have been surprised like that.

"The Citadel Coup has Thane melee Kai Leng instead of trying to shoot his head off."

Again, shields. Some melee attacks in ME 3 can instantly KO you regardless of your shielding. Kai has some pretty impressive shields - why should Thane, who specializes in melee assassination, resort to guns when he can just OHKO him with his omni-blade?

"Thessia has Shepard and party again dutyfully listening to TIMs blathering instead of trying to shoot Leng's head off"

A fight was going to happen regardless. Maybe they figured the might as well hear him out? Worst case scenario they waste a few seconds listening to him talk. Best case scenario, TIM accidentally divulges some useful information.

"...one could argue that Shepard pretends not to notice, so interrupting Space Ninja, breaking his Ninja-to and introducing the omni-blade to his entrails is more satisfying."

I just assumed that's what happened.

"And then, totally out-of-the-blue and completely unexplained, TIM pulls some sort of blood magic body control on Shepard."

It's not unexplained. It's because he was implanted with Reaper tech. TIM flat out tells you that.

If you're asking how, exactly, can the Reaper tech allow him to control Shepard's body, I assume it's a hack. Remember, Shepard's a cyborg. One that TIM himself built.

"At times, it really feels that ME2/3 are about Cerberus and TIM doing awesome things instead of Shepard and Co."

And yet, Shepard still beats them. If Cerberus and TIM weren't formidable, that victory wouldn't mean as much.

"...but in case of what I would call the "mage treatment discussion" - where most people who argue in favour of Templars/imprisonment also put foward "the needs of the many" or "greater good", you tend to disagree with that notion."

I disagree with it in the particular instance of the circles, not with the general concept. Mages -aren't- locked up for the greater good, they're locked up for the Chantry's good. I thought you knew that. Silver Warden (talk) 06:39, October 6, 2019 (UTC)

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