Proposal to formalise the "Family"-part of a character's overview box Edit
Reason: I hate it when stuff is fuzzy and if there's a well-formed definition, it's easier to follow and/or enforce the guidelines.
Valid family relationships (WIP) Edit
- First-degree relatives and the legally acquired equivalent: (Adopted) parents, siblings, children
- married partners (in the format Name (spouse) (conditional), example: Maric/Rowan, Inquisitor/Cullen )
- commited long-term relationships (in the format Name (partner) (conditional), example: Dorian//Bull, Dorian/Inquisitor)
- relevant transitive relations (relatives of relatives of the categories above)
Who's relevant? Edit
I'd draw the line in the case of Alistair between Eamon and Teagan. Both are transitive relatives and listed as family on the page of Alistair's father, so the information is two hops away.
Teagan: Irrelevant: there's no particular relevance to the relationship between Teagan and Alistair.
Eamon: Relevant: there is an entire conversation tree between Alistair and the Warden dealing with his early childhood and the experience of Isolde handing him over to the Chantry, and he repeatedly urges the player to save Eamon via the Ashes. Including him directly would make that information one click away instead of two. ~manavortex (talk)
- I believe listing "fatherly figures" is extremely controversial. Most people when they say "family" they refer to connections of blood. This should be our compass also.
- So far the wiki has listed as family: spouses and parents/children (1), cousins and uncles/aunts/nephews/nieces (2) as well as noteworthy distant relatives (3). If a person does not belong to one of these categories, it cannot be listed.
- On the matter of unmarried partners, I think we should not list them since their union is not official within Thedosian society's standards (Chantry wedding, etc). On the matter of "potential" family members, I think we should include them with the (conditional) tag, as we already do. 15:21, February 13, 2020 (UTC)
- When it comes to adoptions, I think it's acceptable if the characters themselves call each other father/mother/child etc. Flemeth and Morrigan call each other mother/daughter all the time, regardless of actual blood relation. But I don't think Sera, who was raised by Lady Emmald, ever refers to her as a mother, so that shouldn't be added.
- I don't think we should add unmarried partners either, as it creates ambiguity. There's lots of long-term, committed relationships between NPCs that have ended, and handling those is just awkward. For example, Celene/Briala would look something like this: Briala (lover) (formerly) (conditional). Marriage is an easy line to draw. For conditional relationships with the PC, that would include Alistair, Anora, Sebastian, Sera, Cullen. --Evamitchelle (talk) 16:01, February 13, 2020 (UTC)
Reason: The goal is to reference relevant information more directly: I needed more than three minutes to pull up this as a viable example to where that link should lead, and I am
intimately familiar with both the character and the Wiki plus above average tech-savy.
Another important point that I completely failed to mention before is text-to-speech and barrier free access.
Upon seeing "conditional", I would like to have the option to immediately see which conditions have to be met for the family relationship to exist. This is especially notable in the case of Kieran if I assume a user who is unaware of the Dark Ritual. ~manavortex (talk)
- It would bloat the template unnecessarily considering the name is already hyperlinked. Excessive hyperlinking is also a Manual of Style (DA:MOS) problem. 15:21, February 13, 2020 (UTC)
- I think it adds bloat, and that the necessary information is already easy to find. For example, conditions of Kieran's existence are explained in the lead-in section, with a direct link to a page with a detailed walkthrough. --Evamitchelle (talk) 16:01, February 13, 2020 (UTC)
- What do you mean by "bloat the template"? Optically? I don't consider it excessive given that it increases information networking and shortens the paths that users have to take to get where they want
- My reason for suggesting this edit was that yes, while the info is easy to find, doing so still requires searching.
- Being on the autism spectrum I'm rather good at that, but even for me the point of "uh it's somewhere in this article I bet, why can't it be a direct link" became annoying. I'm thinking of people who aren't native English speakers and/or dyslexic, for them, it will not be as easy to find.
- ~manavortex (talk) 10:17, February 17, 2020 (UTC)
- Having a hyperlink in conditional won't take you to the information any more directly than the table of contents. Taking Cullen as an example, the link in (conditional) would still only take you to the general Romance section. You'd still have to read/skim through several paragraphs to get to the information. That's not immediately either. It sounds like what you're asking for is actually a reference, and not a link. --Evamitchelle (talk) 05:11, February 22, 2020 (UTC)
- If by "reference" you mean a hyperlink to a subsection of a wiki page, then yes. I admit that it's somewhat redundant in case of Cullen's romance if you are in his character box, but I consider consistency more important than redundancy, and the moment where you're looking at someone else's character box (the Inquisitor for example), you are actually taken to a different page.
- The goal behind this is to increase information density and make it faster to find stuff on the wiki, especially since the search algorithm is so braindead. Assume the use case of wanting to romance Cullen. I have a high level in google-fu, and I would search for "Cullen Romance" and expect the search's first hit to lead me here. Instead, I get links to Dorian's dialogue, War Table dialogue, Cullen's codex entry, Cullen's Lucky Coin, a user blog, Cut content, and another user blog.
- Finding stuff in the wiki is a pain in the ass imho, and increasing the link density would alleviate that. ~manavortex (talk) 12:48, February 22, 2020 (UTC)
- None of the potential romance options show up in the PC's infobox, or anywhere on their entire page for that matter. Cullen's conditional link is only ever going to be on his own page. By reference, I meant a reference pop-up. When you say a link to a subsection, is linking to the Romance subsection enough for you, or would you want to create a specific "Marriage" subsection under Romance and link to that? --Evamitchelle (talk) 03:19, February 23, 2020 (UTC)
- I'd be fine for it to link to the romance subsection since that would significantly narrow down the information I'd have to scan. In the interest of accuracy a "marriage" section (or a "Trespasser" section, for any romance) would be ideal, but would also generate more work, so I'd not be insisting on that. :) ~manavortex (talk) 19:26, February 23, 2020 (UTC)