|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the War of the Lions article.|
Lowercase (page title) Edit
Based on the title that the official Dragon Age account gave for this conflict, I think the page should be renamed to Orlesian civil war. Source. 11:05, April 11, 2014 (UTC)
The style of other conflict titles on this wiki, like the Ferelden Civil War, have capitalized the names of the conflict. It's the proper way to write a title. Ravenfirelight (talk) 11:27, April 11, 2014 (UTC)
- While it is true that most conflicts follow capitalization, we also follow the exact names and styles used by official Dragon Age sources. 12:09, April 11, 2014 (UTC)
- Perhaps, but it's not just most, every conflict on this Wiki follows capitalization. Besides, I'm not convinced a Facebook post describing a screenshot should be taken so strictly verbatim when it may be a description of the war (being a civil war in Orlais) rather than an official name. Even if it is an official name, that doesn't mean standards of style don't apply. In every standard of style I've ever been held to, titles are capitalized, full stop. Ravenfirelight (talk) 12:24, April 11, 2014 (UTC)
- While I get your point Viktoria, it has been known for BioWare to make grammatical errors - so this may not have been intentional, instead just error or inconsistency. Given that they have capitalised most wars, as with the style of real-world history, it's unusual that they will have made an exception here. Alexsau1991 (talk page) 18:30, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
In Masked Empire, Gaspard makes a point of saying he won't fly his heraldry while he challenges Celene for the throne. If he doesn't use it in conflict, then neither should we. I see no reason why this fact should not 'extrapolate' to a conflict infobox. Alexsau1991 (talk page) 15:31, May 25, 2014 (UTC)
Without wanting to turn this into some conflict of wills, I must respectfully disagree with you Alexsau. For a variety of reasons. We don't even know if the crest in question is Gaspard's personal sigil or the family crest, in the former case, it would be perfectly acceptable. Even if the latter is true, Gaspard remains a member of the de Chalons family, perhaps it's leader. So I still feel the use of the Chalons crest is acceptable. Plus our use of the Chalons crest is only for the sake of informing the audience not influencing the conflict directly, (as Gaspard states in the case you mentioned). It's an informative issue not a dramatic symbolism one.
- Not knowing the capacity of the heraldry, be it personal, familial or other, is in itself a reason why it should not be used, though I can't really comment further as I haven't been able to locate the source that supposedly attributes it to Gaspard/De Chalons. Leaving that at one side, if the heraldry is that of the De Chalons family (as is almost certainly true) there is every reason not to use it. Gaspard makes it clear that he will not bare the De Chalons heraldry as he fights the Civil War, if it's use in the infobox is for the 'sake of informing the audience' then we are misleading them. He is not fighting the war as a member of the De Chalons family, he is not using the crest of the De Chalons family to represent him in battle, thus neither should we. Alexsau1991 (talk page) 16:38, May 25, 2014 (UTC)
The source in question was the DA twitter account by the way. If we're taking conversation in The Masked Empire to its logical extreme, you can argue just as potently that since Celene will hold the de Chalons family culpable for Gaspard's deeds regardless of whatever superifical colours he wears on his armour in one isolated encounter, his whole family will still be held accountable however he chooses to portray himself and so we should use the heraldry. Regardless, I still think you are attaching too much symbolic weight to a tiny icon which is only intended to delineate Gaspard's position from Celene's. Personally, I feel that we are reading too much into this but hey that's just my two cents. - 16:48, May 25, 2014 (UTC)
You said it. 'Regardless'. Celene will hold the Chalons family to account regardless of who's heraldry represents him. The fact is Chalons heraldry doesn't represent him, as he states - he fights because of his 'imperial blood', as such I would suggest he uses the same heraldry to represent him as currently represents Celene. You say his family will be held to account regardless, thus it should be used. Sorry, what logic is this? For all we know the rest of the Chalons family could side with Celene. It isn't our place to speculate.
I think that it is you who is placing undue weight on symbolism, not reading too much into something (as I am accused of) but too readily dismissing it. If the icons that represent belligerents and combatants do not matter to the extent that this potent plot-point is ignored (dismissed as "isolated" despite the fact it's stated that it won't be), then what is the point in displaying any of them? Alexsau1991 (talk page) 17:01, May 25, 2014 (UTC)
Well I am sorry you feel that way Alexsau. I don't entirely understand why you seem to feel this a personal attack on you but regardless I did not intend it as such. All I was trying to convey was that Gaspard is considered for all intents and purposes by his supporters and opponents as head of the de Chalons family. My point was partially that whatever Gaspard says is irrelevant, he is considered to be fighting (regardless of how benign his motives) by his opponents as a member of the de chalons family and will be treated as such regardless of how Gaspard represents himself. - 17:13, May 25, 2014 (UTC)
- You needn't be sorry?... I've taken nothing as a personal attack, I was slightly perplexed that you thought so. I would firstly like to point out that we don't know that Gaspard is the head of House Chalons, admittedly I also assumed this, however likely it might be, we don't know it to be true.
- You say that regardless of how Gaspard portrays himself he is considered to be fighting as a member of House Chalons. Assuming for a moment that this is entirely true, why should how his opponents see him take precedence over how he sees himself? I fail to see the logic. Heraldry is used to represent individuals, et al, both here and on the battlefield. Why should the considerations of Celene's faction take precedence over that of Gaspard himself? Why is his view irrelevant, but that of others isn't? As for saying what is true, or not, we don't know how Celene's faction view Gaspard's family. It was Remache who voiced doubt that Celene would fail to see the difference. As I said, even if true, in what war does the enemy chose your heraldry based upon their own vindictiveness? Alexsau1991 (talk page) 16:02, May 26, 2014 (UTC)
Double check that scene again, Gaspard all but shouts that not wearing the emblem is purely a hollow formality which he knows will have no bearing on how he is perceived by anyone. Both Remache and Briala comment that this is just for show.
Putting that aside however, all we really know from that one scene is that Gaspard did not wear the de chalons Emblem for that one battle. We don't know if the same convention is going to follow through into DA:I, personally I'd wager on just the opposite. Hell why do you think they released the emblem in the first place? So they could not use it?
Even accepting that I still think using the emblem is a good conceptual way to divide the two sides in the conflict. If the Mask of Orlais is meant to represent Orlais as a whole, I would say the best option would be to use the Valmont crest for Celene and the de Chalons crest for Gaspard.
Putting all that aside, your entire argument still rests on the fact that you're assuming the icon in question is the de Chalons family crest. The official response only confirmed that it was Gaspard's crest I.E belonging to him. It could be a personal standard.
P.S There are plenty of instances of groups using identifiers originating with their enemies, the Rats of Tobruk in WW2 for instance.
War of the Lions Edit
- I included a reference with my edit, but I'll be more specific here. At Skyhold, go to the main staircase that leads from the courtyard into the main throne room. On the side of the staircase there should be a re-readable note signed by a Crier Belinas. This note updates with new news after completing main story missions. After Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, there are two versions of the note depending on whether Celene is still empress or Gaspard is emperor, and both say that following the events at the Winter Palace, the "War of the Lions" is over.184.108.40.206 (talk) 03:19, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
- If that's the official name then we should rename it to the in universe name I think.
Agreed to renaming. Orlesian Civil War sounds a bit unspecific, as there was at least another Civil War, when the Valmont dynasty supplanted the Drakon dynasty. War of the Lions is a clear, specific name that leaves no doubt on what civil war is meant.Sharth (talk) 14:24, December 29, 2014 (UTC)
Where does most of this info come from? Edit
As someone, like most people playing this game, that hasn't read the novels, the civil war was no known to me. DAI doesn't seem to mention it at all until you get to this area, and the it's just dropped into your lap as if it's a major plot point that you should have been aware of all along. Does all the info in this article come from the novels only? Tropxe (talk) 13:41, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, everything minus the "Peace Talks" section comes from Asunder and The Masked Empire. That's one of the criticisms I have of the game. It doesn't give a lot of context into what's happened between DA2 and Inquisition (and a lot had happened), and kind of just expects you to go with it. For example, a lot of the stuff Cole tells you regarding his past is specifically tied in with the events of Asunder, but because he's Cole, it sounds incomprehensible to players who haven't read Asunder. These information (or lack thereof) would be overwhelming for people who played DA:O and DA2 but haven't read the novels and comics, let alone players who are just getting introduced to the lore with DA:I. --Keladin Storm 20:18, February 18, 2015 (UTC)