Talk: Vivienne

{{Talk page}}

== untitled ==

I am sorry to this but she looks silly in that outfit, it makes me laugh and if all the armors looks like that then I will laugh through it.{{Unsigned}}
:That's Orlesian fashion for ya. http://24.media.tumblr.com/64f687c0acf2b756bf8aa738b387be97/tumblr_mr4kokk8pd1qcfgs0o3_1280.png [[User:Henio0|Henio0]] ([[User talk:Henio0|talk]]) 23:13, August 6, 2013 (UTC)

== White Spire or Montsimmard? ==

I'd wager she was in line to become First Enchanter of Montsimmard, since it's established in Asunder that Adrian becomes First Enchanter of the White Spire before the trouble with the Circle being dissolved.
:You make a good point, however Adrian was not ''supposed'' to become a first enchanter but rather was elected by the survivors when the Circle was no more. Vivienne might have been a "nice and obedient" Circle mage whose place the red-headed libertarian took during the upheaval. So we'll have to wait and see. [[User:Asherinka|Asherinka]] ([[User talk:Asherinka|talk]]) 02:15, August 7, 2013 (UTC)

Hey :) I got confirmation from Mary Kirby that she's the FE of Montsimmard, so I'mma go ahead and change it :) Check her Twitter for confirmation (I'm not sure how to link to it on here) --[[User:JakeWanstallRiley|JakeWanstallRiley]] ([[User talk:JakeWanstallRiley|talk]]) 17:15, June 27, 2014 (UTC)

== Vivienne and being pro-Circle statement ==

Does anyone have a reference indicating that this character is pro-Circle? Being in line to become the First Enchanter does not show any indication of being pro-Circle. --[[User:LordRaijin|LordRaijin]] ([[User talk:LordRaijin|talk]]) 04:03, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
:It is from Game Informer, Sep issue, see "Friends and Foes". [http://www.bioware.ru/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=112237 Link] [[User:Asherinka|Asherinka]] ([[User talk:Asherinka|talk]]) 16:01, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
::I don't speak Russian nor I have any desire to make account to read those data, so what's written there?[[Special:Contributions/78.8.149.69|78.8.149.69]] ([[User talk:78.8.149.69|talk]]) 21:13, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
:::Erm, it's a scan of GI and it's in English. I'm sorry, I didn't realize you won't be able to see the image. I'll cite it for you then:
:::"One of the Inquisitor's allies is a mage named Vivienne. She was in line to hold the prestigious position of first enchanter in the Circle of Orlais, but the mages' rebellion against the Chantry and the Orlesian civil war happened before she could formally assume the position.
:::"That is a character that has a very specific view on the role of circles and the Chantry," says senior writer [[Lukas Kristjanson|Luke Kristjanson]]. "As someone who is extremely pro-circle, what is left for that person when that entire system crumbles?"" [[User:Asherinka|Asherinka]] ([[User talk:Asherinka|talk]]) 23:49, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

== Quote ==
I find no need for this head quote to be on the page. No point in having a quote for the sake of having one. [[User:Henio0|Henio0]] ([[User talk:Henio0|talk]]) 06:47, September 18, 2013 (UTC)

:I don't mind the quote. When the game is released we'll have a quote eventually anyway, so we might as well keep one now. It shows some of her personality, I think, as much as we know so far. [[User:LadyAeducan|LadyAeducan]] ([[User talk:LadyAeducan|talk]]) 00:36, September 23, 2013 (UTC)
::I don't think the quote is hurting anything staying on the page. The character pages usually have one and from what Gaider has said she seems like a very strong character. The quote sounds like what we know about her, and like LadyA said we can change it later when she has more dialogue.--[[Special:Contributions/173.167.21.19|173.167.21.19]] ([[User talk:173.167.21.19|talk]]) 15:50, September 24, 2013 (UTC)

== OXM ==
I'll cite the magazine here to avoid further questions:
"And Vivienne's got a lisp, thinks the end justifies the means, and is probably going to show up in lots of YouTube videos, if you know what we mean."
A scan of the article is available [http://www.bioware.ru/forum/topic/24515/page__view__findpost__p__2116980 here] (for registered users only).[[User:Asherinka|Asherinka]] ([[User talk:Asherinka|talk]]) 18:05, October 4, 2013 (UTC)

== She needs new picture ==

I think the current picture in he infobox is too dark. On picture [[File:PAX Demo Image.PNG|700px]] her face has better visibility. Can someone cut her from that image and put her to her infobox? I can't add any image, because I have no account and  link to confirmation of opening it never comes to me.[[Special:Contributions/78.8.6.196|78.8.6.196]] ([[User talk:78.8.6.196|talk]]) 08:54, October 5, 2013 (UTC)StubbornMageSlayer

: This doesn't really seem like a better image, to me. It's smaller (or would be, if cropped to just include Vivienne), and shows less of her face. She's also standing behind someone, which cuts off even more of what would be an already too-small image. Beyond that, the current image is quite nice, all things considered. [[Special:Contributions/72.196.14.33|72.196.14.33]] ([[User talk:72.196.14.33|talk]]) 15:32, October 5, 2013 (UTC)

== First Enchanter ==
I think it highly possible she is not actually a First Enchanter, but calls herself one because she feels that's what she deserves and she would have been made one if it wasn't for the war. Could we get an initial source (I believe it was in the first magazine coverage, where they also said about 5 races) for the line "set to be appointed the First Enchanter of one of the two Circles of Orlais"? Perhaps it clearly states that she is not a proper First Enchanter, but she considers herself to be. [[User:Henio0|Henio0]] ([[User talk:Henio0|talk]]) 08:31, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
:Err, just read the entire talk page) The quote is above, under the second header ^_^ [[User:Asherinka|Asherinka]] ([[User talk:Asherinka|talk]]) 15:15, April 8, 2014 (UTC)

::<s>Yeah, no, that discussion there is about which circle she is from. This one here about whether or not she was actually made the First Enchanter before the war broke out, and thus there was no one to award her the title. Because up until recently it was stated that she was "next in line" to becoming First Enchanter, and I was asking for the original source of it as it's missing from the article.</s> Now on the BioWare blog [http://blog.bioware.com/2014/03/28/vivienne-writing-an-imperial-enchanter/] a letter is written in the in-game style, and she refers to herself as First Enchanter. But we don't know if this is actually what she says in the game or only an insight into her personality and how she likes to throw titles about. Best case scenario, development changed and she actually is the First Enchanter. Worst case scenario, we don't know yet and have two contradicting sources. [[User:Henio0|Henio0]] ([[User talk:Henio0|talk]]) 15:26, April 8, 2014 (UTC)

::Just read it again, I thought you meant the one above, not under that one. :) So, just as I thought. One source says she is the FS, and the other says she is not. I will add "self-proclaimed" for now, though I know this will not be taken well. I welcome suggestions abotu how to resolve this. :) [[User:Henio0|Henio0]] ([[User talk:Henio0|talk]]) 15:33, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
:::I'm fine with that. I think we can put "self-proclaimed" until we get more information. [[User:Asherinka|Asherinka]] ([[User talk:Asherinka|talk]]) 19:07, April 8, 2014 (UTC)

Self-proclaimed is speculative, it directly implies that she claimed a title that she has no entitlement to. The two things that we know are:

*She titles herself First Enchanter in a letter to the Nevarran Ambassador. 
*She is said to have yet to formally take up a position as First Enchanter

As far as I can see, the two do not contradict entirely. She could have been appointed First Enchanter without actually taking up the role. As far as 'conflicting sources' go, one is direct from BioWare, the other from a magazine last year. We all know that several reports in magazine articles of late (inclusion of Free Marches and Nevarra for example) have been grossly mistaken, so it's not a leap to say that the BioWare reference is more reliable than the magazine reference. You yourself have questioned the reliability of secondary sources in the past Henio0, I'm surprised you are giving this one an even keel. 

Either way, 'self-proclaimed' is not right - we have no reason to make judgements on her personality at this point, any such views from 'insight' - saying that she likes to throw around titles she doesn't own, for example - are nothing more than speculation. So as I said, I think just 'First Enchanter' would do. We have that from a recent primary source, conflicted only slightly by a distant secondary source. [[User:Alexsau1991|Alexsau1991]] http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090121065227/starwars/images/thumb/c/c7/Goddammit.svg/25px-Goddammit.svg.png <sup> [[User talk:Alexsau1991|(talk page)]]</sup>  22:05, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


Thing is, BioWare worked closely with the Game informer and so far everything in that article was confirmed true, unlike any other magazines. But for the sake of a compromise I would be fine with putting it as disputed. I am quite sure it will come true in the game, however, that she is not technically the FS. [[User:Henio0|Henio0]] ([[User talk:Henio0|talk]]) 02:33, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

:It's still a primary source versus a secondary source. Being correct on everything thus far does not mean they are right here, I'd dispute the fact that 'working close' gives them equal credibility to a primary source. Game Informer are journalists like any other Magazine, and the information they receive from BioWare should be treated equally unless explicitly claimed otherwise. Judgements otherwise are essentially original research. 

:Can we get straight what the magazine article in question actually said? As I understand it she was yet to formally take up the position of First Enchanter, which does not mean she wasn't yet given the title, the infobox space technically being there for titles, rather than occupations. If my understanding is true, then I don't see a reason why it should be disputed. However, if the magazine article in question says that she was not yet appointed First Enchanter, we are back in disputed territory. [[User:Alexsau1991|Alexsau1991]] http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090121065227/starwars/images/thumb/c/c7/Goddammit.svg/25px-Goddammit.svg.png <sup> [[User talk:Alexsau1991|(talk page)]]</sup>  17:30, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

::Provided by Asherinka: "She was in line to hold the prestigious position of first enchanter in the Circle of Orlais, but the mages' rebellion against the Chantry and the Orlesian civil war happened before she could formally assume the position." Plus BioWare made it a point to never refer to her as the First Enchanter, but an Enchanter to the Imperial court instead. So far the only source stating she is in face the FS is a letter written in in-game style, not even confirmed to be a canonical part of the game, but rather an insight into the character, i.e. throwing titles around to make her seem important. [[User:Henio0|Henio0]] ([[User talk:Henio0|talk]]) 17:37, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

:::This is kind of what I expect it to say. The Magazine source only says that she was yet to 'formally assume' the 'position' of First Enchanter, not that she hadn't been granted the title. Ie she was yet to serve as head of a Circle of Magi, but was appointed to the position. 

:::As I've said before, saying that BioWare makes "a point" not to call her First Enchanter in favour of Enchanter to the Imperial Court is entirely speculation. You don't know why they did it, or whether there was a reason they did it. As for an insight to the character, yes it is - but again it's speculation that she's throwing around titles. You're clearly showing preference to the secondary source over the primary source, making allowances for the former, but disputing the accuracy of the latter. We have absolutely no reason or right to assume that Vivienne is 'throwing around titles' - on the opposite side of the fence, she is writing a letter to an Ambassador and invoking the name of the Empress, is she likely to use a title she's not entitled to? I don't think so. [[User:Alexsau1991|Alexsau1991]] http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090121065227/starwars/images/thumb/c/c7/Goddammit.svg/25px-Goddammit.svg.png <sup> [[User talk:Alexsau1991|(talk page)]]</sup>  20:33, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

::::To play the devil's advocate here I could say that it's speculation that she isn't likely to use a title she's not entitled to. You're not gonna persuade me like that. I have expressed my opinion and unless new source emerges confirming her title, I will not change my opinion. I would like some insight from other users because arguing like that we won't get far. [[User:Henio0|Henio0]] ([[User talk:Henio0|talk]]) 04:10, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

::::: I'm not wholly invested in the issue, but I think First Enchanter (disputed) sounds like the best option. Putting "self-proclaimed" does make it sound like she has no official entitlement to the title, and seems misleading. She may or may not have been officially given the title prior to "formally assuming the position"-- there's good arguments for both sides. Since it's unknown for sure, "disputed" makes the most sense. --[[User:Kelcat|Kelcat]] ([[User talk:Kelcat|talk]]) 04:40, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
::::::I did say I am fine with "disputed" ;) [[User:Henio0|Henio0]] ([[User talk:Henio0|talk]]) 06:17, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
::::::: And I am agreeing with you, good ser ;) I like that compromise better than just leaving it at First Enchanter. --[[User:Kelcat|Kelcat]] ([[User talk:Kelcat|talk]]) 06:23, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

Unexplained obstenence isn't helpful Henio. I'm interested to know why you think that a secondary source is suddenly the equal of primary source, especially when it doesn't directly contradict the primary source. I have made this point several times, and each time you've left it unanswered. Leaving speculation aside it stands that BioWare recently released something that called her First Enchanter, while a Magazine released something almost a year ago, that said she was never formally in the position - not that she wasn't granted the title. 

I suggested disputed when I wasn't fully aware of the facts Kelcat, I now think that there is no reason for disputed, or any such note (unless it should say 'formerly', given the dissolution of the Circles). As far as I'm concerned, disputed is not a compromise, as it doesn't take both arguments into consideration - espcially when one is essentially centred on speculation. Can I ask your opinion on whether something from a secondary source should be treated equally to a primary source? This is terribly bad practice, especially when we've seen several magazines print wrong or misleading information of late. Game Informer should only be considered differently to these publications, if BioWare has issued a press release indicating so. [[User:Alexsau1991|Alexsau1991]] http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090121065227/starwars/images/thumb/c/c7/Goddammit.svg/25px-Goddammit.svg.png <sup> [[User talk:Alexsau1991|(talk page)]]</sup>  17:26, April 19, 2014 (UTC)

:You're quick to point out the flaws in other people's arguments, but you don't see one in your own. The letter was written after the veil already tore, so after the circles rebelled, yet she still uses an obsolete title. Should we use this as proof that all circle ranks are still in use? After all, she doesn't say "formerly". As for your question, I have answered it already. The game informer directly addresses her situation, whereas the blog adresses it indirectly from the character's perspective.  I am sceptical about the formality of her receiving the title as BioWare finished her week and the only time she is called the FS is in this instance. I think if it were true they would have stated it directly. But that is just my opinion, as I said already. You're entitled to yours and I am entitled to mine. [[User:Henio0|Henio0]] ([[User talk:Henio0|talk]]) 18:13, April 19, 2014 (UTC)

: @Alex I was always under the impression that "disputed" was used when a specific title or specialization couldn't completely be agreed upon by users of the wiki, hence using it as a compromise. I may be wrong in that. I've gone on record other places here doubting the validity of secondary articles publishing info about DA:I lately, because some of it has indeed been false, and most of it has been leaked long before publication. The only thing I would say about the Gameinformer article being used here as a source is that it has been out for a long time, and to my knowledge has never been disputed by BioWare, unlike the recent OXM and Gamestar magazines, which makes myself a bit more comfortable about its use. My thoughts on using "disputed" is that I don't know for certain how titles work in this instance. If she was appointed but never took up the  position, does she still have the right to use the title "officially"? I honestly don't know, which is why I'd rather see "disputed" beside the title, until we know for certain one way or the other. To be perfectly honest, though, the matter of titles is one that's not that important to me, so I'm fine with leaving this argument to others.--[[User:Kelcat|Kelcat]] ([[User talk:Kelcat|talk]]) 21:46, April 19, 2014 (UTC)

::@Henio - I pointed out the flaws in your argument because they were flaws, theory based upon speculation, and preference for secondary sources over primary sources. You could have saved this rather lengthy discussion by pointing out the flaw in my argument a little earlier. The fact that the subjective credibility is questionable since she is using an obsolete title is an absolutely good point, I hold my hands up and freely acknowledge I had not noticed this. 

::@Kelcat - In light of the timing of the letter I think we can put this matter to bed until we know for sure if she was using this title officially, or not. Thanks for your input. :) Disputed it is. [[User:Alexsau1991|Alexsau1991]] http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090121065227/starwars/images/thumb/c/c7/Goddammit.svg/25px-Goddammit.svg.png <sup> [[User talk:Alexsau1991|(talk page)]]</sup>  22:36, April 19, 2014 (UTC)

==Is Vivienne in The Masked Empire?==
I've just started reading this book but I noticed at the bottom of page 29 that Celene "made a note to speak to Madame de Fer, the mage of the Imperial Court, about Montsimmard's familiarity with mages". I'm sure that's Vivienne's title, meaning The Lady of Iron, and it is already known she is part of the Imperial Court. As I said I'm only on the first chapter so she may appear more or it might be a different woman, though doubt it is the latter as they probably wouldn't share the same title. [[User:Xsari|Xsari]] ([[User talk:Xsari|talk]]) 1:25, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

:Nice catch! {{User:Viktoria_Landers/Sig}} 15:21, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

== Nationality ==
I don't think she should be considered Rivaini, Orlesian and a Free Marcher. Anders is not a Fereldan, nor is he a Free Marcher, even though he spent a lot of his life in those places. I think she can be Orlesian-Riviani at best, only if one of the parents was an Orlesian. Otherwise it's just Riviani. [[User:Henio0|Henio0]] ([[User talk:Henio0|talk]]) 19:35, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

Living in Orlais doesn't make her Orlesian, that's like saying a German born and raised person moving to England is suddenly English. She also, from gameplay videos, doesn't have the Orlesian accent but an English one. Free Marchers have English accents, judging from Dragon Age II. The argument Mostlyautumn gave about Leliana isn't really relevant as she was born and raised in Orlais, making her Orlesian despite her Fereldan mother. It's true that her Rivaini heritage is irrelevant though, I shouldn't have posted that before on the companions page. [[User:Xsari|Xsari]] ([[User talk:Xsari|talk]]) 21:10, July 11, 2014 (GMT)

a) We don't know where Vivienne was raised. b) Would you refer to Arnold Schwarzenegger as Austrian or American actor? {{User:Mostlyautumn/Sig}} 20:18, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

a) Well you would think she was raised in the Circle from a young girl, but then why isn't she in a Free Marcher one if she was born there and has the accent. Maybe she was transferred to Montsimmard later on? b) I'd say Arnold Schwarzenegger is an Austrian actor who lives in America and acts in a lot of American films. Because he was born and raised in Austria and has the accent. It's true though we don't know where she was raised yet so I see your point to leave it as it is for now. [[User:Xsari|Xsari]] ([[User talk:Xsari|talk]]) 21:35, July 11, 2014 (GMT)

Real world rules do not apply in Dragon Age, which is more medieval-like. If we're to make her an Orlesian, that sets a precedence. Then we will have to make all city elves present in DA:O Fereldan, and that includes the Tevinter [[Alarith]]. More so, Varric and Bartrand will have to be considered Free Marchers, Anders will be Fereldan, and so will Oghren. Which is something I don't mind, it's just that listing her as an Orlesian is against all these other characters and against what we've done in the past. [[User:Henio0|Henio0]] ([[User talk:Henio0|talk]]) 06:27, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

We are already inconsistent when categorizing characters because we use races, ethnicities and nationalities interchangeably. For example, [[Athenril]] and [[Orsino]] are categorized as Free Marchers while Varric is not. My opinion is that city elves in ''Origins'' are Fereldan city elves, Varric is Free Marcher surface dwarf, Anders is Fereldan human of Anders descent, Vivienne is Free Marcher-born Orlesian human of Rivaini descent. In Vivienne's case, I think it's fine to tag her as all three. {{User:Mostlyautumn/Sig}} 07:41, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

: I agree with you Mostlyautumn, I'm currently proposing to add nationality (via the [[Dragon Age Wiki:Discord|DA:Discord]]'s server) to all DA:character's info box. I think this would resolve several issues in regards to character's having multiple nationality categories listed. In Vivienne's case the nationality is still not a definite so it would be listed as "Unknown". Thoughts?{{ColorPositiveStat|--[[User:Zj24|Zj24]] ([[User talk:Zj24|talk]]) 23:28, 5 December 2021 (UTC)}}

:: I disagree somewhat and in particular with Xsari's example which confuses ancestry and nationality. My description of Arnie would be an American of Austrian ancestry. After all, unless one is a Native American, all Americans had ancestry somewhere else. The problem, as Henio0 notes is that in the real world, there is such a think as citizenship which can change over one's lifetime. Arnie changed citizenship after he moved here, otherwise he would not be qualified to run and hold the office of Governor of California. In Thedas, there doesn't seem to be an equivalent sort of process. We know that people feel national pride and have low opinions of the members of other nations, but not really what happens when people move. Vivienne is an even more complicated example, because I could see making an argument for Circle as her nationality. She says as much: "I was taken to the Ostwick Circle when I was very young. So far as I'm concerned, my life began there." For the elves living in alienages, that's fairly analogous to people who lived in European ghettos, like the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto#Ghetto_administration the one in Warsaw]: they lived in the city, yes, but have far fewer rights than the normal citizens and were generally considered beneath citizenship. With all of this in mind, I'm going to (cue Jonathan Swift) make a Modest Proposal: that we remove nationality entirely because a) it is too ambiguous in Thedas and there is just too much we don't know and b) the benefit to the average wiki reader is at best secondary and probably tertiary or more. It's basically window dressing, it's not like removing a walkthrough or something like that. <span style="font-weight:bold;font-size:100%;background:-webkit-linear-gradient(330deg, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet);-webkit-background-clip:text;-webkit-text-fill-color:transparent;">[[User:DaBarkspawn|DaBarkspawn]] ([[User talk:DaBarkspawn|talk]])</span> 01:03, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

:: I don't generally go on the discord server these days, too busy, but I will if you make me. In case it isn't clear from the above, the fact that I support removing nationality from this page means I support removing it from ''every'' page and I am certainly opposed to adding it elsewhere. <span style="font-weight:bold;font-size:100%;background:-webkit-linear-gradient(330deg, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet);-webkit-background-clip:text;-webkit-text-fill-color:transparent;">[[User:DaBarkspawn|DaBarkspawn]] ([[User talk:DaBarkspawn|talk]])</span> 01:06, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

::: I don't think adding nationality to the infobox would solve our categorization problems, if anything, it would only compound them by making them more visible. The main problem is that people have different standards for what counts as "belonging". Having multiple nationalities isn't necessarily a problem either. For a character like Vivienne, who was born and raised in the Free Marches but spent almost her entire adult life in Orlais and has assimilated into Orlesian culture, I think it makes sense to have both repsented in the categories. The "Rivaini" category is different, since that's entirely based on ancestry, though in this case the category description makes it clear it includes both people of Rivaini nationality and ancestry.

::: However, I'm also opposed to removing the nationality categories entirely. While there might not be much benefit to the average reader, there's no real harm in it either, and as an editor I've found these categories useful in the past so I'd much rather keep them.

::: I do think we might need to clarify category descriptions (e.g. some mention only nationality, others mention both nationality and ancestry) and subtitles on nation pages. Right now, the nation pages have a "Notable people with XXX origin" section. I think it might be simpler to just rename the sections to "Notable XXX" (e.g. Notable Marchers) and then add a note that it includes both people of Marcher ancestry and nationality. [[User:Evamitchelle|Evamitchelle]] ([[User talk:Evamitchelle|talk]]) 02:47, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

:::: Yeah, I'm okay with the categories, I'm opposed to the infobox entries. <span style="font-weight:bold;font-size:100%;background:-webkit-linear-gradient(330deg, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet);-webkit-background-clip:text;-webkit-text-fill-color:transparent;">[[User:DaBarkspawn|DaBarkspawn]] ([[User talk:DaBarkspawn|talk]])</span> 03:04, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

I like Evamitchelle's idea of having an excerpt on Nation articles whereby stating something along the lines of: ''The Notable people listed in this section can either be of xxxx "ancestry" or "nationality".'' {{ColorPositiveStat|[[User:Zj24|Zj24]] ([[User talk:Zj24|talk]]) 05:04, 6 December 2021 (UTC)}}

== Indira Varma as Voice Actress confirmed! ==

Yay I guessed right! She seems like quite a cold and Morrigan-like character. Indira does a great job! [[User:Xsari|Xsari]] ([[User talk:Xsari|talk]]) 20:25, August 22, 2014 (GMT)

== Odette ==

Looking at the game files, it seems that Vivienne was initially called Odette. Has anyone heard anything about this? {{User:Mostlyautumn/Sig}} 22:56, January 10, 2015 (UTC)

:I've been following modding threads where others have found the same references. No official confirmation, however, but I think it is very likely she used to be Odette based on that. It could be a trivia point that game files refer to her as such, I think. --{{User:Margerard/Sig}} 15:51, January 11, 2015 (UTC)

== Full fledged mage in Ostwick ==

Full fledged mage in Ostwick is not correct, she states in-game that she transferred as apprentice. WoT2 states simply that she is one of the youngest full-fledged mages in Circle history, not in Ostwick Circle's history.--[[User:Alekth|Alekth]] ([[User talk:Alekth|talk]]) 13:12, August 15, 2016 (UTC)

== Vivienne/Odette ==

While modding, I found out that most of the game files refer to Viv as "Odette". It might have been a very early concept name. Shouldn't it be at least mentioned in the Trivia section?

:I added it since it looks like someone mentioned the same thing as you a couple years ago. Seems like you aren't the only one to notice that!

This is the game file data about Vivienne. It says her exact age, demeanor, motivations etc. Do with it what you will. [[User:Svartypops|Svartypops]] ([[User talk:Svartypops|talk]]) 14:43, March 14, 2018 (UTC)

EbxFile	: 
@Guid	: 05cc3ee4b3aae111b16ccdb51c85e31b
LocalizedCharacter	: 
@Guid	: c0176836fc50913a61f3fcfd01ff2fe2
Asset	: 
DataContainer	: 
Name	: DA3//DesignContent//Characters//Global//Followers//Vivienne
LevelObjectID	: Vivienne
CharacterName	: Vivienne
Gender	: Female
CharacterDescription	: She is refinement. A commoner, born in the Free Marches, who has risen through the Orlesian Imperial Court, mistress of a powerful noble on the Council of Heralds, official Enchanter of the Imperial Court â a position now threatened by Morrigan â and leader of the last remnant of the Circle. She is connected. She knows anyone, can befriend anyone, and if she canâtâ¦ well, she can manipulate them instead. She is ruthless and will do anything to accomplish her goals.

Vivenne is somewhere between Mrs. Coulter and the Wicked Queen from Snow White. Elegant and charming with a heart of solid ice and an obsessive need for order. She is never direct. She will not antagonize an Inquisitor for disagreeing with her. She will try to charm her adversaries first, and if that fails, resort to guile and manipulation. When she does criticize, it is through catty, biting comments. Her temper, though rarely seen, is utterly terrifying.
SpeechPattern	: Educated, superior, extremely polished. 
Accent	: British
Race	: Human
Appearance	: 
CharacterArchetype	: 
CharacterType	: Major
TTSVoice	: Deepa22k_HQ
SubCharacters	: 
Voices	: 
AgeRange	: 27
IsPlayer	: False
VOEligible	: True
...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

== Fomari Ring ==

Is it an actual item (if so, what does it do?) or does it just exist in dialog? <span style="font-weight:bold;font-size:100%;background:-webkit-linear-gradient(330deg, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet);-webkit-background-clip:text;-webkit-text-fill-color:transparent;">[[User:DaBarkspawn|DaBarkspawn]] ([[User talk:DaBarkspawn|talk]])</span> 04:16, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

: No it's not an actual item, just mentioned in the cutscene. [[User:Evamitchelle|Evamitchelle]] ([[User talk:Evamitchelle|talk]]) 05:25, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

:: Got it, thanks. <span style="font-weight:bold;font-size:100%;background:-webkit-linear-gradient(330deg, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet);-webkit-background-clip:text;-webkit-text-fill-color:transparent;">[[User:DaBarkspawn|DaBarkspawn]] ([[User talk:DaBarkspawn|talk]])</span> 05:34, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

== Vivienne Edit Suggestions ==

https://64.media.tumblr.com/489e83c4f08670e10a9097749fd15852/tumblr_inline_nzr7ud7lWj1tgpj07_1280.png

Firstly
As this image clearly states Vivienne has a wing in her lovers estate, not a suite of rooms but an entire wing. I believe someone must of had some confusion and thought that she was saying she has a suite in the estate and that was all when in fact it's an entire wing in the estate and not just a suite "of rooms" which is exactly what a suite is, a collection of rooms which she has at the palace not at the estate... So if someone could kindly edit her article here on the wiki where it says that Vivienne conducted her circle business in a "suite of rooms" in her lovers estate and change it to a wing in his estate, that would be more accurate. 

Secondly
The beginning of the article states she is an orlesian, most peoples estimates seem to place her in her forties so if she was nineteen when she transferred she'd have spent lets say 29 years in Orlais as an adult after having spent her entire childhood in ostwick after having been born in wycome and both those city states are in the free marches so is she an orlesian now? I suppose we can call her that but it is wrong to state she is 100% orlesian when she spent her entire childhood in another land which is reflected in her accent so I believe the beginning should be changed to Vivienne is a free marcher born orlesian mage from its current state which is vivienne is an orlesian mage because sure she's orlesian but as is stated in the background she is in fact a free marcher born and bred who eventually moved to orlais so she is not 100% orlesian.

Thirdly
It says in the Affiliation section that she is affiliated with the college of enchanters when that is just not true, she founds her own circle if you do not make her divine, a circle that is in direct opposition to the college of enchanters and all she says about the college of enchanters that is good is that the training is adequate then she says but it's a mess. She says that as like a little piece of info or as an opinion on the place that she as we find out in the trespasser epilogue is in direct opposition to so if anything needs to 100% be updated on this particular wiki page then that is it right there.

Fourthly & Finally
Why can I not edit her page? I tried to edit it on my phone but it wouldn't allow me to do any changes.

Thank you! :)

* The page is locked because we've had past trouble with vandals. Create an account, log in and you will have no trouble editing. As for wing versus suite, I don't have strong feelings, especially because a wing could contain only one suite of rooms. I do agree that it is more correct to refer to her as a Marcher when referring to her youth, but Orlesian when referring to her presently. She emigrated and changed nationalities. The college of enchanters is marked conditional because she reforms them if she does become Divine and the Inquisitor does [[In Hushed Whispers]] and makes the mages full allies.  <span style="font-weight:bold;font-size:100%;background:-webkit-linear-gradient(330deg, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet);-webkit-background-clip:text;-webkit-text-fill-color:transparent;">[[User:DaBarkspawn|DaBarkspawn]] ([[User talk:DaBarkspawn|talk]])</span> 15:32, 22 November 2021 (UTC)