This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Vivienne article.
  • General discussions not pertaining to the improvement of the article should be held in Discussions instead.
  • Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
  • Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes! (~~~~)
  • Do not edit another editor's comment.

I am sorry to this but she looks silly in that outfit, it makes me laugh and if all the armors looks like that then I will laugh through it.—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

That's Orlesian fashion for ya. Henio0 (talk) 23:13, August 6, 2013 (UTC)

White Spire or Montsimmard? Edit

I'd wager she was in line to become First Enchanter of Montsimmard, since it's established in Asunder that Adrian becomes First Enchanter of the White Spire before the trouble with the Circle being dissolved.

You make a good point, however Adrian was not supposed to become a First Enchanter but rather was elected by the survivors when the Circle was no more. Vivienne might have been a "nice and obedient" Circle mage whose place the red-headed Libertarian took during the upheaval. So we'll have to wait and see. Asherinka (talk) 02:15, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
I recon it's Montsimmard as well, would seem strange her not being mentioned in Asunder otherwise. Xsari (talk) 18:00, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

Hey :) I got confirmation from Mary Kirby that she's the FE of Montsimmard, so I'mma go ahead and change it :) Check her Twitter for confirmation (I'm not sure how to link to it on here) --JakeWanstallRiley (talk) 17:15, June 27, 2014 (UTC)

Vivienne and being pro-Circle statement Edit

Does anyone have a reference indicating that this character is pro-Circle? Being in line to become the First Enchanter does not show any indication of being pro-Circle. --LordRaijin (talk) 04:03, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

It is from Game Informer, Sep issue, see "Friends and Foes". Link Asherinka (talk) 16:01, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
I don't speak Russian nor I have any desire to make account to read those data, so what's written there? (talk) 21:13, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
Erm, it's a scan of GI and it's in English. I'm sorry, I didn't realize you won't be able to see the image. I'll cite it for you then:
"One of the Inquisitor's allies is a mage named Vivienne. She was in line to hold the prestigious position of first enchanter in the Circle of Orlais, but the mages' rebellion against the Chantry and the Orlesian civil war happened before she could formally assume the position.
"That is a character that has a very specific view on the role of circles and the Chantry," says senior writer Luke Kristjanson. "As someone who is extremely pro-circle, what is left for that person when that entire system crumbles?"" Asherinka (talk) 23:49, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

Quote Edit

I find no need for this head quote to be on the page. No point in having a quote for the sake of having one. Henio0 (talk) 06:47, September 18, 2013 (UTC)

I don't mind the quote. When the game is released we'll have a quote eventually anyway, so we might as well keep one now. It shows some of her personality, I think, as much as we know so far. LadyAeducan (talk) 00:36, September 23, 2013 (UTC)
I don't think the quote is hurting anything staying on the page. The character pages usually have one and from what Gaider has said she seems like a very strong character. The quote sounds like what we know about her, and like LadyA said we can change it later when she has more dialogue.-- (talk) 15:50, September 24, 2013 (UTC)

OXM Edit

I'll cite the magazine here to avoid further questions: "And Vivienne's got a lisp, thinks the end justifies the means, and is probably going to show up in lots of YouTube videos, if you know what we mean." A scan of the article is available here (for registered users only).Asherinka (talk) 18:05, October 4, 2013 (UTC)

She needs new picture Edit

I think the current picture in he infobox is too dark. On picture PAX Demo Image her face has better visibility. Can someone cut her from that image and put her to her infobox? I can't add any image, because I have no account and link to confirmation of opening it never comes to me. (talk) 08:54, October 5, 2013 (UTC)StubbornMageSlayer

This doesn't really seem like a better image, to me. It's smaller (or would be, if cropped to just include Vivienne), and shows less of her face. She's also standing behind someone, which cuts off even more of what would be an already too-small image. Beyond that, the current image is quite nice, all things considered. (talk) 15:32, October 5, 2013 (UTC)

First Enchanter Edit

I think it highly possible she is not actually a First Enchanter, but calls herself one because she feels that's what she deserves and she would have been made one if it wasn't for the war. Could we get an initial source (I believe it was in the first magazine coverage, where they also said about 5 races) for the line "set to be appointed the First Enchanter of one of the two Circles of Orlais"? Perhaps it clearly states that she is not a proper First Enchanter, but she considers herself to be. Henio0 (talk) 08:31, April 8, 2014 (UTC)

Err, just read the entire talk page) The quote is above, under the second header ^_^ Asherinka (talk) 15:15, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, no, that discussion there is about which circle she is from. This one here about whether or not she was actually made the First Enchanter before the war broke out, and thus there was no one to award her the title. Because up until recently it was stated that she was "next in line" to becoming First Enchanter, and I was asking for the original source of it as it's missing from the article. Now on the BioWare blog [1] a letter is written in the in-game style, and she refers to herself as First Enchanter. But we don't know if this is actually what she says in the game or only an insight into her personality and how she likes to throw titles about. Best case scenario, development changed and she actually is the First Enchanter. Worst case scenario, we don't know yet and have two contradicting sources. Henio0 (talk) 15:26, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
Just read it again, I thought you meant the one above, not under that one. :) So, just as I thought. One source says she is the FS, and the other says she is not. I will add "self-proclaimed" for now, though I know this will not be taken well. I welcome suggestions abotu how to resolve this. :) Henio0 (talk) 15:33, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
I'm fine with that. I think we can put "self-proclaimed" until we get more information. Asherinka (talk) 19:07, April 8, 2014 (UTC)

Self-proclaimed is speculative, it directly implies that she claimed a title that she has no entitlement to. The two things that we know are:

  • She titles herself First Enchanter in a letter to the Nevarran Ambassador.
  • She is said to have yet to formally take up a position as First Enchanter

As far as I can see, the two do not contradict entirely. She could have been appointed First Enchanter without actually taking up the role. As far as 'conflicting sources' go, one is direct from BioWare, the other from a magazine last year. We all know that several reports in magazine articles of late (inclusion of Free Marches and Nevarra for example) have been grossly mistaken, so it's not a leap to say that the BioWare reference is more reliable than the magazine reference. You yourself have questioned the reliability of secondary sources in the past Henio0, I'm surprised you are giving this one an even keel.

Either way, 'self-proclaimed' is not right - we have no reason to make judgements on her personality at this point, any such views from 'insight' - saying that she likes to throw around titles she doesn't own, for example - are nothing more than speculation. So as I said, I think just 'First Enchanter' would do. We have that from a recent primary source, conflicted only slightly by a distant secondary source. Alexsau1991 25px-Goddammit.svg.png (talk page) 22:05, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

Thing is, BioWare worked closely with the Game informer and so far everything in that article was confirmed true, unlike any other magazines. But for the sake of a compromise I would be fine with putting it as disputed. I am quite sure it will come true in the game, however, that she is not technically the FS. Henio0 (talk) 02:33, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

It's still a primary source versus a secondary source. Being correct on everything thus far does not mean they are right here, I'd dispute the fact that 'working close' gives them equal credibility to a primary source. Game Informer are journalists like any other Magazine, and the information they receive from BioWare should be treated equally unless explicitly claimed otherwise. Judgements otherwise are essentially original research.
Can we get straight what the magazine article in question actually said? As I understand it she was yet to formally take up the position of First Enchanter, which does not mean she wasn't yet given the title, the infobox space technically being there for titles, rather than occupations. If my understanding is true, then I don't see a reason why it should be disputed. However, if the magazine article in question says that she was not yet appointed First Enchanter, we are back in disputed territory. Alexsau1991 25px-Goddammit.svg.png (talk page) 17:30, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
Provided by Asherinka: "She was in line to hold the prestigious position of first enchanter in the Circle of Orlais, but the mages' rebellion against the Chantry and the Orlesian civil war happened before she could formally assume the position." Plus BioWare made it a point to never refer to her as the First Enchanter, but an Enchanter to the Imperial court instead. So far the only source stating she is in face the FS is a letter written in in-game style, not even confirmed to be a canonical part of the game, but rather an insight into the character, i.e. throwing titles around to make her seem important. Henio0 (talk) 17:37, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
This is kind of what I expect it to say. The Magazine source only says that she was yet to 'formally assume' the 'position' of First Enchanter, not that she hadn't been granted the title. Ie she was yet to serve as head of a Circle of Magi, but was appointed to the position.
As I've said before, saying that BioWare makes "a point" not to call her First Enchanter in favour of Enchanter to the Imperial Court is entirely speculation. You don't know why they did it, or whether there was a reason they did it. As for an insight to the character, yes it is - but again it's speculation that she's throwing around titles. You're clearly showing preference to the secondary source over the primary source, making allowances for the former, but disputing the accuracy of the latter. We have absolutely no reason or right to assume that Vivienne is 'throwing around titles' - on the opposite side of the fence, she is writing a letter to an Ambassador and invoking the name of the Empress, is she likely to use a title she's not entitled to? I don't think so. Alexsau1991 25px-Goddammit.svg.png (talk page) 20:33, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
To play the devil's advocate here I could say that it's speculation that she isn't likely to use a title she's not entitled to. You're not gonna persuade me like that. I have expressed my opinion and unless new source emerges confirming her title, I will not change my opinion. I would like some insight from other users because arguing like that we won't get far. Henio0 (talk) 04:10, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
I'm not wholly invested in the issue, but I think First Enchanter (disputed) sounds like the best option. Putting "self-proclaimed" does make it sound like she has no official entitlement to the title, and seems misleading. She may or may not have been officially given the title prior to "formally assuming the position"-- there's good arguments for both sides. Since it's unknown for sure, "disputed" makes the most sense. --Kelcat (talk) 04:40, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
I did say I am fine with "disputed" ;) Henio0 (talk) 06:17, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
And I am agreeing with you, good ser ;) I like that compromise better than just leaving it at First Enchanter. --Kelcat (talk) 06:23, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

Unexplained obstenence isn't helpful Henio. I'm interested to know why you think that a secondary source is suddenly the equal of primary source, especially when it doesn't directly contradict the primary source. I have made this point several times, and each time you've left it unanswered. Leaving speculation aside it stands that BioWare recently released something that called her First Enchanter, while a Magazine released something almost a year ago, that said she was never formally in the position - not that she wasn't granted the title.

I suggested disputed when I wasn't fully aware of the facts Kelcat, I now think that there is no reason for disputed, or any such note (unless it should say 'formerly', given the dissolution of the Circles). As far as I'm concerned, disputed is not a compromise, as it doesn't take both arguments into consideration - espcially when one is essentially centred on speculation. Can I ask your opinion on whether something from a secondary source should be treated equally to a primary source? This is terribly bad practice, especially when we've seen several magazines print wrong or misleading information of late. Game Informer should only be considered differently to these publications, if BioWare has issued a press release indicating so. Alexsau1991 25px-Goddammit.svg.png (talk page) 17:26, April 19, 2014 (UTC)

You're quick to point out the flaws in other people's arguments, but you don't see one in your own. The letter was written after the veil already tore, so after the circles rebelled, yet she still uses an obsolete title. Should we use this as proof that all circle ranks are still in use? After all, she doesn't say "formerly". As for your question, I have answered it already. The game informer directly addresses her situation, whereas the blog adresses it indirectly from the character's perspective. I am sceptical about the formality of her receiving the title as BioWare finished her week and the only time she is called the FS is in this instance. I think if it were true they would have stated it directly. But that is just my opinion, as I said already. You're entitled to yours and I am entitled to mine. Henio0 (talk) 18:13, April 19, 2014 (UTC)
@Alex I was always under the impression that "disputed" was used when a specific title or specialization couldn't completely be agreed upon by users of the wiki, hence using it as a compromise. I may be wrong in that. I've gone on record other places here doubting the validity of secondary articles publishing info about DA:I lately, because some of it has indeed been false, and most of it has been leaked long before publication. The only thing I would say about the Gameinformer article being used here as a source is that it has been out for a long time, and to my knowledge has never been disputed by BioWare, unlike the recent OXM and Gamestar magazines, which makes myself a bit more comfortable about its use. My thoughts on using "disputed" is that I don't know for certain how titles work in this instance. If she was appointed but never took up the position, does she still have the right to use the title "officially"? I honestly don't know, which is why I'd rather see "disputed" beside the title, until we know for certain one way or the other. To be perfectly honest, though, the matter of titles is one that's not that important to me, so I'm fine with leaving this argument to others.--Kelcat (talk) 21:46, April 19, 2014 (UTC)
@Henio - I pointed out the flaws in your argument because they were flaws, theory based upon speculation, and preference for secondary sources over primary sources. You could have saved this rather lengthy discussion by pointing out the flaw in my argument a little earlier. The fact that the subjective credibility is questionable since she is using an obsolete title is an absolutely good point, I hold my hands up and freely acknowledge I had not noticed this.
@Kelcat - In light of the timing of the letter I think we can put this matter to bed until we know for sure if she was using this title officially, or not. Thanks for your input. :) Disputed it is. Alexsau1991 25px-Goddammit.svg.png (talk page) 22:36, April 19, 2014 (UTC)

Is Vivienne in The Masked Empire?Edit

I've just started reading this book but I noticed at the bottom of page 29 that Celene "made a note to speak to Madame de Fer, the mage of the Imperial Court, about Montsimmard's familiarity with mages". I'm sure that's Vivienne's title, meaning The Lady of Iron, and it is already known she is part of the Imperial Court. As I said I'm only on the first chapter so she may appear more or it might be a different woman, though doubt it is the latter as they probably wouldn't share the same title. Xsari (talk) 1:25, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

Nice catch! Viktoria Landers 15:21, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

Nationality Edit

I don't think she should be considered Rivaini, Orlesian and a Free Marcher. Anders is not a Fereldan, nor is he a Free Marcher, even though he spent a lot of his life in those places. I think she can be Orlesian-Riviani at best, only if one of the parents was an Orlesian. Otherwise it's just Riviani. Henio0 (talk) 19:35, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

Living in Orlais doesn't make her Orlesian, that's like saying a German born and raised person moving to England is suddenly English. She also, from gameplay videos, doesn't have the Orlesian accent but an English one. Free Marchers have English accents, judging from Dragon Age II. The argument Mostlyautumn gave about Leliana isn't really relevant as she was born and raised in Orlais, making her Orlesian despite her Fereldan mother. It's true that her Rivaini heritage is irrelevant though, I shouldn't have posted that before on the companions page. Xsari (talk) 21:10, July 11, 2014 (GMT)

a) We don't know where Vivienne was raised. b) Would you refer to Arnold Schwarzenegger as Austrian or American actor? – mostlyautumntalkcontribs • 20:18, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

a) Well you would think she was raised in the Circle from a young girl, but then why isn't she in a Free Marcher one if she was born there and has the accent. Maybe she was transferred to Montsimmard later on? b) I'd say Arnold Schwarzenegger is an Austrian actor who lives in America and acts in a lot of American films. Because he was born and raised in Austria and has the accent. It's true though we don't know where she was raised yet so I see your point to leave it as it is for now. Xsari (talk) 21:35, July 11, 2014 (GMT)

Real world rules do not apply in Dragon Age, which is more medieval-like. If we're to make her an Orlesian, that sets a precedence. Then we will have to make all city elves present in DA:O Fereldan, and that includes the Tevinter Alarith. More so, Varric and Bartrand will have to be considered Free Marchers, Anders will be Fereldan, and so will Oghren. Which is something I don't mind, it's just that listing her as an Orlesian is against all these other characters and against what we've done in the past. Henio0 (talk) 06:27, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

We are already inconsistent when categorizing characters because we use races, ethnicities and nationalities interchangeably. For example, Athenril and Orsino are categorized as Free Marchers while Varric is not. My opinion is that city elves in Origins are Fereldan city elves, Varric is Free Marcher surface dwarf, Anders is Fereldan human of Anders descent, Vivienne is Free Marcher-born Orlesian human of Rivaini descent. In Vivienne's case, I think it's fine to tag her as all three. – mostlyautumntalkcontribs • 07:41, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

Indira Varma as Voice Actress confirmed! Edit

Yay I guessed right! She seems like quite a cold and Morrigan-like character. Indira does a great job! Xsari (talk) 20:25, August 22, 2014 (GMT)

Odette Edit

Looking at the game files, it seems that Vivienne was initially called Odette. Has anyone heard anything about this? – mostlyautumntalkcontribs • 22:56, January 10, 2015 (UTC)

I've been following modding threads where others have found the same references. No official confirmation, however, but I think it is very likely she used to be Odette based on that. It could be a trivia point that game files refer to her as such, I think. --Margerard 15:51, January 11, 2015 (UTC)

Full fledged mage in Ostwick Edit

Full fledged mage in Ostwick is not correct, she states in-game that she transferred as apprentice. WoT2 states simply that she is one of the youngest full-fledged mages in Circle history, not in Ostwick Circle's history.--Alekth (talk) 13:12, August 15, 2016 (UTC)

Vivienne/Odette Edit

While modding, I found out that most of the game files refer to Viv as "Odette". It might have been a very early concept name. Shouldn't it be at least mentioned in the Trivia section?

I added it since it looks like someone mentioned the same thing as you a couple years ago. Seems like you aren't the only one to notice that!

This is the game file data about Vivienne. It says her exact age, demeanor, motivations etc. Do with it what you will. Svartypops (talk) 14:43, March 14, 2018 (UTC)

EbxFile : @Guid : 05cc3ee4b3aae111b16ccdb51c85e31b LocalizedCharacter : @Guid : c0176836fc50913a61f3fcfd01ff2fe2 Asset : DataContainer : Name : DA3//DesignContent//Characters//Global//Followers//Vivienne LevelObjectID : Vivienne CharacterName : Vivienne Gender : Female CharacterDescription : She is refinement. A commoner, born in the Free Marches, who has risen through the Orlesian Imperial Court, mistress of a powerful noble on the Council of Heralds, official Enchanter of the Imperial Court – a position now threatened by Morrigan – and leader of the last remnant of the Circle. She is connected. She knows anyone, can befriend anyone, and if she can’t… well, she can manipulate them instead. She is ruthless and will do anything to accomplish her goals.

Vivenne is somewhere between Mrs. Coulter and the Wicked Queen from Snow White. Elegant and charming with a heart of solid ice and an obsessive need for order. She is never direct. She will not antagonize an Inquisitor for disagreeing with her. She will try to charm her adversaries first, and if that fails, resort to guile and manipulation. When she does criticize, it is through catty, biting comments. Her temper, though rarely seen, is utterly terrifying. SpeechPattern : Educated, superior, extremely polished. Accent : British Race : Human Appearance : CharacterArchetype : CharacterType : Major TTSVoice : Deepa22k_HQ SubCharacters : Voices : AgeRange : 27 IsPlayer : False VOEligible : True ...

Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.