|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Stealing: Profitable Targets article.|
Moved here:(Added the table, simply right click Insert Row to add a row and then input information. Neatness if you can please.)
RE: article when i made it was a concept draft so i did not made any table i knew how to but there was no need with not much data.
PS maybe it was my laziness
OK Rogek's case is misleading info: "Items received" instead "Received 20 Sovereigns"! This is because there is one random simple item plus 20 Sovereigns.
Is there any chance we could rename the page to something like Stealing: Unique Marks. That way we could add items to the list like the Bad Luck Charm while still listing all the "profitable" loots since they all come from unique NPCs anyway.
- If no-one objects, I can make that change. Loleil 00:32, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
- Just add the fixed items there are to steal
188.8.131.52 12:13, December 2, 2009 (UTC)Anonymous
Not sure who decided 51 cunning would let you steal from all the orange names in the game, but it certainly doesn't work in my game. 57 Cunning is not enough for me to steal from Irving nor from High Dragon(I cheated to see the dragon's pockets and can confirm they are EMPTY). There are also a few others i've run across that repeatedly issue a "Stealing failed." On Easy diffciulty you can get by with 51 cunning, sure, but not on Normal ...at least not in the game I'm playing. Also, there are far more Elites that I cannot steal from than Bosses. As I said elsewhere in this discussion, it's mostly the caster elites ...not sure why the casters are harder to steal from, they just are. Back on topic...can anyone else confirm being able to steal from Irving with ≤51 Cunning? 184.108.40.206 03:44, December 5, 2009 (UTC)Anonymous
I recently completed the game as a human rogue and stole from every target I saw in all the areas of Denerim and the Dalish Elf camp (no failures.) I never got the guard ambush travel event and the elves always trusted me. While I have no wish to go replay the game and use a respec to verify this manually, I have previously verified this same trigger in two other places: (1) Ostagar with Duncan, and (2) Redcliffe Castle with Arl Eamon. In both places, a single stealing failure from any NPC triggers the scolding dialogue. This is easiest to see in Ostagar, where you can steal from the Ash Warrior captain, fail, and watch the knight on the other side of the path immediately run to Duncan. As such, it is likely that Denerim and the Dalish Elf camp are based on the same one-stealing-failure trigger, with an additional trigger for the elves' songbook chest present before you complete Nature of the Beast.
- 1 Cunning 100?
- 2 Skill Level?
- 3 Status Effects?
- 4 Love Letter
- 5 Coins vs Items
- 6 Stealing in the fade
- 7 Any bored modder out there?
- 8 Successful steal from Irving!
- 9 Combining Rank/Cunning into Single Column (Controversial?)
- 10 The ONLY NPC I haven't been able to steal from is Caridin.
- 11 Lord Dace
- 12 Duncan
- 13 Gorim
- 14 "K"
- 15 Treasure class
- 16 game difficulty shouldn't be relevant
- 17 Teyrn Bryce Cousland
- 18 Stealing Runes from Duncan
I realize I'm not a min-max gamer by any means, but... how do you get to cunning 100 without cheating? Supposing you've got the starting 10-15? cunning, and then pump every single skill point you get into it... that still doesn't bring you up to 100, since you gain 3 per level, with a max level of 25-ish (and more realistically, you won't get past 23?). So, at most, 75 skill points. So, about 80-90 cunning, max. That's only if you decide to pump everything into cunning, of course, and leave the rest of your stats low. - Ancestralmask 21:46, December 2, 2009 (UTC)
- you get about 5 more from The Fade, and there are, what? 5 tomes? plus you can get all the armor and rings that buff your attribute. So, its possible, but as you pointed out - a little crazy --Tierrie 22:07, December 2, 2009 (UTC)
- Cheating or Not, its valuable. Here's why. Take Irving...cheating to boost your cunning so you can find out THEN AND THERE what it takes. This then gives people a heads up...Irving cant be stolen from (as an example). Hope this is clear. Cypherdiaz 02:57, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
- remember that you can get 5pts per steal and sneak rank, so 4x5+4x5==40pts + your cunning pts
Just wondering if other people thought the skill level row was necessary, the main thing I think is that people can know who, what and where. I also think it might be difficult to prove a minimum level. I don't know if scaling is involved, but I was able to steal plenty of things and never went above level two in the skill. Loleil
- Until someone can say for certain that skill/attributes do not play a factor in success/fail rates then I think we need to keep that information available. It may very well be that skill level really doesn't matter and a list like this could provide clear evidence of that, but until we get a LOT more reports from the community I think we should keep the information as is. I just think it's too early to say one way or another. 220.127.116.11 04:38, December 3, 2009 (UTC)Anonymous
- Maybe we should actually rename the collumn to "Minimum Required" -- then if, for example, you see that Item X is listed as being stolen with Stealing 4, Stealth 2, and 30 Cunning but you just stole it in your game with Stealing 2, Stealth 0, and 22 Cunning you could update the information.
- Also, does anyone know if Character level affects success/fail rates in any way what-so-ever? Does the game scale the difficulty of marks to the Warden's actual level? 18.104.22.168 09:00, December 3, 2009 (UTC)Anonymous
- The skill required for success or failure is a bit more complex then stealing level + cunning score. The character and target levels, the cunning score, the stealing level, and whether or not the player is in stealth mode determine the outcome. I did some surfing regarding this (and other) issue and came across this forum post: http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/66/index/243304 - it explain how the rogue skills work from someone who studied the toolset. To summarize, the calculation of success/failure is: Successful stealing =
(cunning - 10) + 5 * [ranks in stealing] + 5 * [points in stealth if stealthed]. --silverstrike 07:17, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
- Update to my previous edit: the calculation for success/failure is:
(cunning - 10) + 5 * [ranks in stealing] + 5 * [points in stealth if stealthed]
[mental resistance] + [creature rank bonus] + 2 * [victim's level - thief level (this can be negative)] + 10 (if thief or victim are in combat)
- At that point a check is made to make sure that Character score is greater then Target score, in which case the stealing is successful. --silverstrike 07:28, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
- Update to my previous edit: the calculation for success/failure is:
- You don't need 100 cunning. Like lockpicking, stealth adds virtual cunning to stealing. I've stolen from Irving with rank 2 stealth and maximum stealing points. -Beefsticks
I fully concede that it may be just random coincidence, but has anyone else noticed a modest increase in success rate when your target is stunned and/or knocked down? I've tried just about everything to be able to steal from some enemy NPCs but a few are notorious for giving me failures (like most of the Elite/Yellow darkspawn casters). In most games stealing success rates sky rocket when your opponent is Asleep or Paralyzed. In DA:O I think the design team slept through that discussion. Anyway... here's what I've tried and please provide feedback from your own experiences:
- Status of Target - Effect on Pickpocketing
- Sleep - None
- Horror - None
- Paralyzed - Haven't tried
- Waking Nightmare - Haven't tried
- Frozen - Minimal Increase, if any (This to me should make pickpocketing 100% fail since your loot is in a block of ice ....right?)
- Petrified/Stone - Haven't tried (This to me should make pickpocketing 100% fail since your loot is now incorporated into a statue)
- Knocked Down - Modest increase
- Stunned - Minimal Increase, if any
- Stunned and then immediately Knocked Down - High Increase (Best results so far, this is what I always use if the first attempt fails. 80% of the time it produces a success)
- Attack/Defense Debuff - Minimal Increase (Really didn't test this much)
Also, has anyone tested to see if Success/Fail is in any way related to the Thief's ATTACK vs. the Mark's DEFENSE? I first came across this when my Thief was hampered by three different negative hits to his Attack at the same time--I failed to steal from a trivial NPC (Genlock). As soon as the debuffs were gone I was able to steal again. I only tried a few times to raise my thief's attack while stacking multiple negative defense effects on the enemy. Early tests hinted at a somewhat higher success rate, but it needs a LOT more testing. The only NPCs I have routine failures on are the Elite caster Darkspawns and they can be few and far between. Again--I totally concede that this could be coincidence and nothing more; I would just like confirmation one way or another. Please give feedback!
22.214.171.124 04:38, December 3, 2009 (UTC)Anonymous
- Paralyze increases your chances to steal during combat also, I have noticed a significant difference in success/failure. Mictlantecuhtli 18:13, March 30, 2010 (UTC)
Orzammar - The Diamond Quarter Random Noble Lover Letter* -- Can someone confirm this? Being able to steal a letter is conflicting information with the Correspondence Interruptus page, and I was unable to get a letter after successfully stealing from all nobles in the Diamond Quarter. Perhaps it's the same letter as is able to be acquired elsewhere?--Timefounder 23:58, December 4, 2009 (UTC)
Coins vs Items
I doubt I'm the only person to notice that sometimes a NPC will give an item and sometimes it will give raw currency. For example, the 1.91g I listed from Harrowmont was on my first steal attempt; the next time I recieved a lyrium potion. A few things to discuss:
- Do all "Valuable Item" NPCs have a chance to give money?
- What are the common loot tables, if any?
- What factors determine how much money you recieve?
- What is the probability to receive either money or an item?
- I seem to get an Item about 80% of the time (assuming the NPC had something to steal to begin with) but that is a very rough estimate.
- On super rare occasions I have gotten money + an item. I'm thinking the game decided to give me money at that particular instance but then the NPC had a unique item so it had to reward me with that as well. Just thinking out loud.
- I seem to get an Item about 80% of the time (assuming the NPC had something to steal to begin with) but that is a very rough estimate.
Please discuss! 126.96.36.199 04:05, December 5, 2009 (UTC)Anonymous
- I've found this to be true, I started to change them yesterday to "One Valuable Item" but I didn't want to cause I didn't recall, what I got for sure from those targets. Anyone that appears to give 1 or better seems they will give items of value as well.
- I tested with Anora at least 15 times or so, the very first time I received like 3 81, then out of several more attempts (by reloading save) the items was constantly different, mostly getting Greater Health Polutice, 2 more times I got roughly 2 31 and finally 3 18 so my guess would be her range happened to be something like 2-4
- I would further go to say in light of such, this table is nearly useless because of this outside of some completely static items, otherwise we might as well list every "Orange" named NPC as giving a valuable item, since it seems they always have something of value.
- Kilandor 04:52, December 5, 2009 (UTC)
- From what I've seen I would classify the loot tables into the following categories:
- Normal Marks (White Names)
- Lesser Health Poultice
- Various low level Traps (from rogues)
- Most (if not All) Crafting components with the exception of Flasks and Agents (most components seem specific to NPCs: Lyrium Dust from mages, Frozen Lightning from supernatural creatures, Metal Shards from rogues, etc.)
- Small amount of Silver (5 to 20)
- Minor Gemstones (Quartz, Greenstone, Fluorspar, etc)
- Elite Marks (Yellow Names)
- Health Poultice
- Medium amount of Silver (20 to 80)
- Medium Gemstones (Malachite, etc.)
- Boss Marks (Orange Names)
- High end Gemstones (Sapphire, Turquiose, Diamond, etc.)
- Large amounts of money (80 to 4)
- Greater/Potent Health/Lyrium Poultice/Potion (I've only seen Lyrium potions via stealing from Orange marks)
Novice/Journeyman Enchantment (Enchantment!) Runes, Lesser/Greater [Elemental] Salves, Weapon Coatings/Poisons, Rings, and Shale's crystals each fall into those categories somewhere but I'm not sure where. I know I got a ton of runes from the Dwarves in Orzammar. I also realize I probably only listed half the loot that one can attain from pickpocketing but I've been up all night and my brain is running on empty. Feel free to add your input.
If an NPC produces a pickpocketed item that falls into one of those 3 categories then I agree that we have no business putting it into the table. NPCs that produce items like Hardy's Belt, 20g, Flawless Crystals, etc. definetly SHOULD be in the table. Now technically the page is directed at "profitable marks" so indeed we should list every single NPC with an Orange name (because their loot has a higher sell value to merchants)...but I really think the spirit of the page is more along the lines of "unique marks" and would love to see it go in that direction.
188.8.131.52 15:58, December 7, 2009 (UTC)Anonymous
Stealing in the fade
Stealing from alistair during the fade gave me an imperium crossbow.
This was before talking to him back to his senses (in one of those nightmare sections)
i am not sure whether this is supposed to happen or not so needs confirmation.
Any bored modder out there?
Could some modder look into game's files and provide us info about profitable targets' mental resistance, lvl and rank bonus? As of now whole column about skill level is a mess and tells absolutely nothing about minimal stats needed to steal an item. Then we could simply stick formula from there: http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/66/index/243304 and the data would be useful for everyone (well, at least for people who can count). Xalard 21:58, January 1, 2010 (UTC)
Successful steal from Irving!
I'm a level 12 rogue with 4 steal, 44 cunning, no stealth on normal difficulty. PC version. Took about 15 tries. Got a greater health poultice. Yippy.
Combining Rank/Cunning into Single Column (Controversial?)
I've boldly combined the Rank/Cunning columns into a single number, making it easier to compare the requirements across all targets. It will also make it easier for people to update the numbers as they make successful attempts with lower scores. (In some cases, no cunning score was listed; I assumed 35 for Rank 4, 30 for Rank 3, and 25 for Rank 2.)
I realize this change will be controversial; if you think it's a horrible idea, please revert. (It would be kind to also describe your reasoning.) — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 20:27, January 24, 2010 (UTC)
The ONLY NPC I haven't been able to steal from is Caridin.
Irving gave up nothing on about the 20th try. I recall being stealthed when it happened, although I don't actually know if it contributed to the "success." It's funny... Orange NPC's almost always have NOTHING when I finally "succeed." Anyone been able to steal from Caridin????
No, I don't bother. Most orange named enemies require very high cunning and master stealing then don't have any items of serious value. Similarly combat penalties make it too difficult with their boss penalties to steal during combat also, though that can be counteracted somewhat by stunning/paralyzing them first. Piotin is an example, when you steal from him it's random dwarven loot and not a Grandmaster Hale Rune (it might be possible to get one but it'd be so randomized that it'd take a lot of reloads and time to get something you actually want), nor do you get 2 gold on top of what you steal (you never get an item, and gold it's always one or the other). So the information here is questionable. Mictlantecuhtli 09:49, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
After a few years, I'm playing again. Lots of mods & giving myself free skipp/attribute/etc points. I have just stolen from Caridin. Master thieving. 82 cunning seems to be the minimum for success. Took 3 tries. 90 cunning, success on first try. 10 steals w/reloads and heres what I got.. Coin 3/32/22, Emerald, Greater Warmth Balm, Large Flawless Spirit Crystal, Greater Health Poultice, another Poultice, Expert Silverite Rune, another Poultice, another Balm and another Poultice. So it seems there is nothing special when stealing from Caridin. It's not worth the time or effort. Feb 1, 2014
This is listed as a profitable target but it doesn't specify which one of the three Lord Dace it is. Jmjimmy 02:26, February 6, 2010 (UTC)
- Its in the location column --
06:00, February 8, 2010 (UTC)
- I scoured both locations and didn't run into any of the male Daces (only Lady Dace), though I was a Human and sided with Harromont so I'm assuming the Dace that was to be in Aeducan Thaig had gone by the time I got there. Jmjimmy 06:53, February 8, 2010 (UTC)
So I'm not sure if I am just simply unlucky or what, but I have had successful stealing attempts from Duncan but both times (before the joining and after) I received nothing. Does this mean the "one valueable item" and/or all the rewards listed are just possible outcomes? Bandit-Behind-Bars 05:17, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
- There is an unknown mechanic at play that no one has figured out (that I'm aware of) where by you steal, you are successful but you don't get any items. Some believe this is a bug, others that it is only at certain times/under certain conditions that specific items will be available, others that difficulty has an impact (higher the difficulty the more likely you are to get something), or finally that once you have a successful steal there is a % chance that nothing is received. The last two scenarios are the most likely. The last is believed to be an attempt to make it more realistic ie: Even though you don't fail/get caught at your attempt to steal, you also may not get anything. If this is the case you should have also had the ability to attempt to steal again, but the game gives you "Nothing to steal" after that. Hopefully this answers your question... though the answer that "nobody really knows for sure" isn't all that helpful :) Jmjimmy 01:48, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
I haven't experienced not getting an item, but with a Dalish elf rogue lv 3 whose cunning was lv 28 + stealing + stealth lv 1, I was able to thief a grandmaster hale rune. I think I did it in about an hour of reloads. Later on, at level 4, I was able to steal a 2nd grandmaster hale rune from Duncan just after we finished the Ceremony. After this, I made a dwarf rogue and have spent many hours trying to thief the 1st grandmaster hale rune without success. I am only able to steal a master hale rune, and this is with a 31 cunning + stealing + stealth. However, after the ceremony, I was able to steal a grandmaster hale rune. So, at best, with a dwarvish rogue I have only been able to steal 1 master hale rune and 1 grandmaster hale rune.
(It is possible to get a 2nd grandmaster hale rune from Duncan, it just takes time)
After about a half-hour of stealing and reloading games, I've knicked two flawless crystals (a large and small) from the ol' thief in Hard Mode. I've edited the chart accordingly.
I'm reloading for grandmaster runes on a lvl 3 dwarf with 25 cunning + 2 perks in stealing (so 35 cunning effectively) but all I'm getting is potions, gems and the occasional master rune. No grandmaster or crystals at all and this is after 200+ attempts.--Lowcard (talk) 15:38, September 30, 2013 (UTC)
"K", the bandit from "Interested Parties" questline from Denerim's bar had a bit more than 3 gold coins when I was able to steal during combat... Profitable?
It seems every possible drop follows a certain pattern , either drop gold based on level or up to 3 items(bosses) from a specific racial treasure class equal to their rank and possible 1 rank less as well as the generic class(and also shale crystals based on rank). Maybe a new column can be added that lists which treasure class the target derives from and a link to that section of the treasure page http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Treasure. Kolgrim for example is tevinter class and is one of the few enemies that can you can steal a Master Rune (Dweomer, Paralyze, Slow). Revenants seem to be tevinter as well but the best item i ever got from them was heavy plate mails.
For example duncan seems to be able to drop from generic elite boss and boss , as well as elite boss and boss grey warden though i have never been able to get a GM rune from him.
Right now "one valuable item" seems somewhat non descriptive and says nothing about what drops.
The tricky part would be figuring out what each boss/elite boss's class is. Some are obvious like the orzamar targets but others like uldred are not.
- Individuals do not have specific items in most cases, in the toolset all NPC's are set up for random generic area specific loot (not level based in the least, and nothing unique unless specifically meant to give an item like Hardy's Belt, etc). Dwarven, and Tevinter are two generic loot types. Chests in the game are the same way (even the ones in unfinished areas like Deep Woods). Mictlantecuhtli (talk) 22:46, November 26, 2010 (UTC)
Level plays a role in the amount of gold and the tier of the item, i didn't mean it would affect the "type" of item. I didn't mean specific as in it was an exact preset drop but that it would be randomized from a preset pool of items, generic+racial+crystal OR gold. this way, you know the total range of possible drops. I guess it would only be useful to power gamers who want valuable steals upon reloads.
game difficulty shouldn't be relevant
"Raising or lowering the game's difficulty setting will increase or decrease the skill/attribute requirements, respectively. "
Pretty sure this is wrong. Empirical evidence suggests difficulty has no effect on success rates, and the skill_steal.nss script governing stealing doesn't have a variable for difficulty level. The difficulty tables controls only combat rolls of various types.Valentinian (talk) 03:25, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
Valentinian's comment was made in 2011, it's now 2017, and this difficulty warning is still on the main page. If there's no evidence difficulty affects stealing, this warning should be removed. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 20:59, February 27, 2017 (UTC)
Teyrn Bryce Cousland
Tough nut to steal from, but my female rogue finally managed it. With 20 cunning and Dace's amulet, and improved stealing, she scored... a silver ring. Shadizar666 (Ruck Rules) 04:18, March 5, 2013 (UTC)
Stealing Runes from Duncan
According to my experience (= literally hundreds of attempts), Duncan statistics here were incorrect. First of all, it is impossible to obtain Grandmaster runes from him (tested after arriving to Ostagar at level 2, 3, and 4). That said, Duncan remains a highly profitable target, given the scarcity of high-tier Hale and Cold Iron runes in the OC. Secondly, the minimum Cun (with Stealing and Stealth ranks factored in) you need in order to steal from Duncan successfully is 32, not 38. I understand that in principle that doesn't contradict the formula presented here, nevertheless, I believe this point should be clarified. IN (talk) 07:56, April 26, 2018 (UTC)