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There seems to be no mention of the Wife and Daughter of his whose throats I so badly want to slit :p A shame. ~ Novawolf 04:09, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

Disappointing Edit

Given all the build-up for Arl Howe, I thought he would be an awesome character for Tim Curry. I little evil spiced with slave trading, regicide, and kidnapping. Instead, Howe is on stage for seconds. With Claudia Black voicing a companion and Kate Mulgrew doing great things for Flemeth, I was expecting a meatier role. Loghain would have been perfect.  —Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 08:44, February 8, 2010 (UTC)

Strategy suggestionsEdit

Howe is fought in the dungeons of the Arl of Denerim’s estate. He is in a small room with two support mages (at least one is a Master Shapeshifter (PS3)) and two support warriors. The mages both have healing abilities. The Warden can pull Howe and the two warrior out of the room and fight them alone and then deal with the mages.

A useful strategy when fighting them all at once is to open with a mana clash on the two mages and then an AOE damage effect in the room. Properly positioned in the doorway, a forcefielded tank can block any opponents from leaving the room.

(Moved from main page by Friendship smallLoleil Talk 00:24, February 14, 2010 (UTC))

wealthy wife? Edit

From the "Background" section:

During Awakening, Nathaniel recounts the proud history of the Howe family. Rendon Howe seemed to have married an even wealthier woman and always tried to prove himself to her upper-class family.

I've played through Awakening several times and I've never heard Nathaniel mention that his father married a woman wealthier than him. Can anyone verify what conversation this is from? Or is this just speculation. The only thing I can think of is the conversation triggered by Nathaniel's mother's portrait, but he never says anything about his mother's family except the bit about his grandmother visiting. Kelcat (talk) 00:12, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

It is possible that this wealthy wife of Rendon howe might have been from the Free Marches. After all when someone was sent as a squire, it was naturaly someone from mothers family who squire was meant to serve, and we all know where Nathaniel spent his time as a squire. Nathaniels mother has to be a member of the powerfull marcher noble family but which one of them? Only David Gaider might know.

I'm just looking to see if there's anything that canonically backs up this statement. If it's just speculation then it doesn't belong on the article, obviously. And I can't recall anything anywhere stating that Nathaniel's mother was from the Free Marches. Kelcat (talk) 08:06, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
If I recall correctly this is mentioned by Nathaniel Howe when you initiate a discussion with him while interacting with the portait in the throne room of Vigil's Keep. Viktoria Landers 10:34, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

Where else she would have come from? of course thats only my speculation but this would make sense to me. Only teyrns and kings would be higher than arls in Ferelden and we can guess that Rendons wife was not a member of Couslands, Mac Tirs or Theirins. Rendon could have courted someone wealthy noble women from nearest city-states of Free Marches in hope of great dowry.

Stubborn Mage Slayer/Dalish Fan makes some valid points, but at the same time It doesn't seem like we have enough information to be certain of anything except that Rendon was married to someone. Unless we can find more concrete information, I suggest we remove the line. -HD3 Sig 11:55, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
It's almost certain that this line is real. Removing it instead of using the Template:Citation needed tag would only strip the article of information. I believe such practice is also followed in wikipedia.
@Dalish fan: Theorizing whether Rendon would get a wealthy wife or not is not a valid way to confirm a statement. Viktoria Landers 17:43, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
Well, I just watched a video of that scene and there was no mention whatsoever of Nathaniel's mother's status or wealth. I'll play through it myself and fiddle with all the available prompt options, but I'm almost certain that this line doesn't exist anywhere. Kelcat (talk) 22:17, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
All right, I went through that dialogue point again and amazingly enough he does have the line "her family was wealthy, I remember that much." Must have been a dialogue I never chose before.
I still don't know if this bit should be included, though. Nathaniel merely states that his mother was wealthy, but didn't say she was wealthier than Rendon or that he "always tried to prove himself" to her family. I think it boils down to semantics (something I've argued somewhat overly briskly in the past) as to who Nathaniel is referring to in the conversation when he says that "father awaited his turn". I think it means Rendon waited his turn to belittle Nathaniel, but I know others believe it means Rendon was waiting his turn to be belittled by Nathaniel's grandmother. Since there's ambiguity in this conversation and since the info in the background says "seems to be" I'm going with this being speculation and am rewording it to be more concrete than conjecture. Kelcat (talk) 23:40, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

Titles Edit

I see there are ofen changes of his titles. We need a discussion about that. We all are certain about him as an arl of Amarantine. He became a teyrn of Highever by murdering Bryce Cousland. He saw an opportunity in taking over Denerim because Urien died at Ostagar, so his son Vaughn was only a problem to solve. That was Denerim with too many witnesses unlike Highever, where all people were killed or MIA, he imprisoned Vaughn and fabricated evidences that he was killed by elves form the Alienage. So he became an arl of Denerim, because of lack of evidences disprooving Vaughn's death. (talk) 16:30, November 2, 2013 (UTC)StubbornMageSlayer

You're overlooking the scenario for City Elf Wardens where they killed Vaughan in the City Elf Origin. In that scenario, Vaughan is dead before Howe is named Arl of Denerim and with Vaughan's father dead as well, Howe is the legitimate Arl of Denerim, not just the de facto. he Wiki policy in these situations has been to list such titles as (Disputed) to reflect the varying potential situations from player choices. -HD3 Sig 16:36, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

With Vaughn killed or not everyone recognises him as killed by elves and Howe rules Denerim for about a year and in documents in Denerim he is considered as arl of Denerim. With dead Vaughn he is an arl of Denerim legally and with him alive he defrauded this title and estate but avoided justice. In my opinion there is no doubt about Howe as arl of Denerim. (talk) 17:08, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

The fact that Vaughan can vote in the landsmeet on behalf of Denerim, but the Warden can't vote on behalf of Highever demonstrates the discrepancy between the two scenarios, if Vaughan can vote then it's unlikely that his family had been stripped of his lands. For while we know that the Couslands were stripped of Highever by the regency for supposedly colluding with Orlais, Howe simply overtook the Denerim estate and locked it's Arl in the dungeons. Labelling it as disputed seems reasonable course of action in my opinion. Alexsau1991 25px-Goddammit.svg.png (talk page) 17:20, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

No nobleman or noblewoman met in Denerim blames Warden of Cousland family for treason. Only Nathaniel does, but he's biased and could imagine all things to justify his dad's actions. (talk) 17:35, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

We've seen that Rendon controls the city guard, the treasury and is living in the Arl of Denerim's Estate. I think that's more than enough to assume he is the de facto Arl of Denerim.

Then add a note or simply write that in involvement. (talk) 19:13, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

His title is indeed disputed by the opposition, which is the de jure claim of being the Arl. So to summarize, since the "de facto" is undisputed and the "de jure" is disputed, I believe we should use the former. Viktoria Landers 17:43, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

But jugdes/magistrates can be fooled. Law can be wrong. (talk) 17:50, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

Does the "de facto", or any other title, need to be there? The Arl of Denerim is one of the roles he plays in the game. The manner in which he got that title, and whether it remains legitimate by the time of the Landsmeet, is something that develops as part of the story line. The fact that it is, at some point, one of his titles, is not in doubt, is it? -Sophia (talk) 17:57, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

It does in my view, for while Arl Howe is in practice the Arl of Denerim, Vaughan Kendell is sitting in his cell calling himself Arl of Denerim, and with a legitimate claim to back it up - as well as no apparent legal judgement stripping him and his family of their Arling, we have to differentiate Howe's right to the title, contrasting to Amaranthine and Highever. Alexsau1991 25px-Goddammit.svg.png (talk page) 18:03, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
I understand what you're saying regarding the difference. My argument is that this is part of the story line. At some point in the game, regardless of whether Vaughan lives or not, Howe is officially awarded the Arling by Loghain. That is all the legal judgement that is needed for his title to be legitimate for a period in the game. -Sophia (talk) 18:33, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
If it's causing this much trouble, I agree it's worth just removing. I'm well aware that as an anon user my opinion probably doesn't count for much, but it doesn't really seem necessary to include, certainly not worth arguing over. As it stands, his page mentions that he kidnaps the Arl of Denerim's heir and claims the arling for himself. Perhaps a bit could be added about the possibility of Vaughn being dead already, to clarify things. Just a thought. (talk) 19:01, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
The point is, we don't know that Howe was officially awarded the Arling by Loghain. Unlike with the Couslands, Loghain clearly didn't strip the the Kendells family as Vaughan can vote uninhibited at the Landsmeet. And if he can vote that means that the time spent in the dungeons he was the legitimate Arl, which calls into question the legality of Howe's claim on the position. As Viktoria stated the fact that Howe was the de facto Arl is undisputed, however de juri is obviously disputed, in and out of game. Thus in my view de facto should remain. Alexsau1991 25px-Goddammit.svg.png (talk page) 00:08, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
Actually we do know that Howe was named Arl of Denerim. At the start of the Landsmeet when Loghain introduces Howe, he introduces him as Arl of Amaranthine, Teyrn of Highever and Howe reminds him he is also the Arl of Denerim which Loghain concedes.

I would also submit that Vaughan's ability to vote at the landsmeet is irrelevant here. Of course he was never stripped of his lands, everyone thought he was dead. When they discovered he was alive, obivously they recognized his legal claim to the Arling of Denerim since the only thing preventing that was the fact everyone thought he was dead.

But the point is none of these arguments are directly related. Whether or not Vaughan can be considered the true Arl while imprisoned are irrelevant. Leaving de facto next to the title completely ignores the scenario where Vaughan is dead and Howe is the fully legitimate Arl. In all other wiki articles where titles have been affected by potentially altered by player choices, we have put (Disputed) next to the title. Since the article is meant to equally reflect all player choices, I would argue that disputed should remain next to Arl of Denerim.-HD3 Sig 00:39, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

Vaughan wasn't striiped of rights to arling of Denerim, he kidnapped by Howe's troops and Howe fabricated evidences of his death. After Howe's death and Vaughan's releasing, the latter appeared in public and explained what happened, since then nobody anymore considered Kendells family as extinct. (talk) 08:06, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

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