Talk: Fereldan Civil War (9:30 - 9:31 Dragon)

The best option rather then decide that only one of the storyline's is canon is to have all the possibilites available such as putting () around Loghain's death symbol and then at the bottom of the chart have it say next to () "Loghain is killled in all possible options except blank" I only suggest this because it seems that we are going to constantly be able to take our save games over into the next expansion or new game each and every one of us will have different canon. In other words just as Alistair becoming King would be cannon so would Anora and the Warden becoming Queen and King-Consort be canon.Rallas 19:41, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Speculation amok in the artcle

This article has a lot of points that do not seem to belong here. Such point like Loghain knowing that his son in law leaving his daughter, or the Cousland's being suitable replacements for the dead king don't really belong here. I"m not really confident in my editing skills but I do think that this article needs to be made shorter at thee least, and getting rid most of the speculation. Balitant (talk) 04:39, December 20, 2010 (UTC)

To expand on this point, perhaps this page should be more in line with the "Fifth Blight" page on this wiki. Balitant (talk) 05:10, December 20, 2010 (UTC)

The best way to get confident is to start editing! If you have any questions on how to edit please ask, but I'd really encourage you to start editing and to improve the page. Loleil ^Talk 05:52, December 20, 2010 (UTC)

First) Loghain did know Cailan was leaving Anora. This was meant to be a big point in the game but was cut, referred to only if you bring Loghain to Return to Ostagar. Loghain's comments indicate he knew and prove that while a lot was cut, the plotline was left in the game. the writers have confirmed Cailan was leaving Anora and Loghain knew about it, even adding sarcastically "But Loghain a reasonable man and wouldn’t do anything about that." http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9386107

Second) The wiki itself states that Teryn Cousland could have been king after Maric's death. As a Teryn he is the closest you get to royal blood and unlike Loghain, he was born a noble. That makes him a strong contender to the throne, which is what this page says. It does not say the Couslands would have had the throne, but they defiantly would have been strong enough contenders to interfere with Loghain's plans. The Cousland’s themselves take up a few lines on the page and are important to set up the general lack of leadership at the time and to explain Howe’s power.

--Ironreaper (talk) 11:15, December 20, 2010 (UTC)

I was originally going to point out that I know about that video (in the end I didn't), and like he said (and you) it was cut from the game. Meaning that the plot point is now moot, and one cannot confirm if Loghain "officially knew"(though that confirmation does work to prove Cailan's intent, not Loghain's anymore). Moreover, I'll refer to this quote from Loghain's dialogue page :

(during the Return to Ostagar DLC after finding the Secret Correspondence)

   * Loghain: The cheating bastard!
   * Wynne: Watch your mouth, Loghain Mac Tir, unless you have forgotten the company you now keep!
   * Loghain: It's not my company I worry about, madam, but my former son-in-law's! Do you see the familiar tone with which the empress writes him, as if my daughter were not already his wife?
   * Wynn: Cailan loved Anora with every ounce of his heart. It was plain for all to see. The only thing that ever stood between them was you.
   * Loghain: Are you blind, old woman? The plot is plain as day within this letter! Love or no, Cailan was going to cast my daughter aside and wed himself to that bitch, Celene. In a single vow, Orlais would claim all that they could never win by war! And what would Ferelden gain? Our fool of a king could strut about and call himself an emperor.
   * Wynne: And what of peace? Would it not bring us that, at least?
   * Loghain: Peace? I would have thought your age might have granted more wisdom, madam. Peace just means fighting someone else's enemies in someone else's war for someone else's reasons. 

That cheating Bastard.This in my opinion shows more surprise on the part of Loghain. Furthermore, this is not the point of what I am saying. These points are disputable, and not iron clad fact. what Loghain may or may not know, when it cannot be confirmed, is at best an interesting piece of trivia. It is not official information that should be on this page.

That goes for:

-Orlais invading from the northern coast of Fereldan -Howe being accepted by Loghain because he needed a man who could lose everything in the event of said invasion (an invasion that we know nothing about or where any Orlesian soldiers would arrive from). -The involvement of the crows and their reasons for helping the Warden (it can probably be solved by linking this section to relevant quest on this site)

Furthermore, I stand by what I say about the Cousland's. Being contenders for the throne is very disputable, as the Guerrin's both posses claims through marriage and Anora is alive. While the lack of leadership opposing Loghain may be relevant, stating that the Cousland's are suitable replacements for the seemingly extinct Theirin line is notrelevant to how this civil war played out.

I still stand by what I said regarding this page, there is too much speculation about the events and people. Plus I have come to think that there needs to be more information cited (ex. the crows, and Howe's embezzlement which is only seen through the Denerim thieve quests).

Loleil, I may come around to that in the future when more time becomes available to me. Thanks for the encouragement none the less.Balitant (talk) 20:30, December 20, 2010 (UTC)

Im all for cut plotlines being considered moot, but it is referenced in the plot as something that took place only not to the extent that the writers wanted. Loghain admits if you talk to him he would have secured the coast against an Orlais invasion after the civil war if you talk to him about it after the Landsmeet. The bit about Arl Howe is something that I’ll admit was speculation and don’t mind if you remove. If you complete The Trail by Crows the Crows themselves say that they are in Fereldan because the civil war brought up many old grudges. They also admit they thought Loghain was the best man for the job, as it "is not in our best interest for the Archdemon to win" and that every quest you did for them "help your cause, some in more ways then others" Linking is possible, but i just don’t see the point in having every page tell you nothing, instead just link you somewhere else. Like some big bureaucratic building where everyone tells you to go somewhere else. Howe did embezzle in the thieves quest. i find it unlikely that in all your other saves where you lack the skills to take on said quests he develops conscious.

But go ahead and edit if you wish, i wont stop you. There was barely anything when i built on this page and it took me a while to write a lot of it. --Ironreaper (talk) 20:51, December 20, 2010 (UTC)

The thing about Bioware confirming the Cailen/Celene plot does, in my opinion, confirm that Cailan was going to leave Anora. I just don't feel there is any confirmation to suggest that Loghain knew in the game. He may have been intended to, but I personanlly don't think he does in the final draft of the game. The point I make is that we cannot confirm if Loghain knew or not, so we can only speculate. Plus don't worry, I don't really have the time to go around deleting everything in this article. I just wanted to cause enough discussion to see if others would take an initiative that I cannot take.Balitant (talk) 21:08, December 20, 2010 (UTC)

yeah you can. hell when i built the page it was just some word document that i added a little to every so often. Just devot a little bit of the weekend or something:-)--Ironreaper (talk) 21:14, December 20, 2010 (UTC)

So as my attempt to sway editors into this article have failed, I will do editing over the next little while. While I am doing this, I will keep a list of my changes here (new section on this talk page). If you find anything objectionable, Ironreaper, I will also keep a list of sentencees I remove and change. Balitant (talk) 09:37, December 29, 2010 (UTC)

Changes

I am talking explicitly to you Ironreaper. I don't want you're work to go to waste so tell me if you wish to add anything, or disagree with me.

The first is that I did remove the bit about why Howe was accepted by Loghain. Something doing with Howe being used because he could risk everything in the event of an Orlesian invasion.

The second change I intend to make is concerning the battles between loghain and the Bannorn. Specifically:

"The numbers of the Bannorn, even separated, were far superior to the forces of Loghain, but Loghain’s strong leadership and brilliant tactics were able to overcome the Bannorn’s weak leadership. After some months into the war, it was clear the Bannorn forces were routed. Divided, the Bannorn’s defeat seemed certain, but they refused to surrender"

I do not remember, in any part of Origins, where it was stated the standing forces of the Bannorn outnumbered Loghain's standing forces. The only thing that comes to mind is the gossip you sometimes hear from those two men in regions (perhaps Bodahn). The problem is that they referred to a battle that took place, and Loghain "cut through them" so to speak. that's all.

Edit: This is the result I have for the "Battles" section (for now at least, I combined my changes with what was already there):

The Bannorn, consisting of independent, stubborn banns, all opposed Loghain, but showed little interest in uniting against a common enemy. There is only one known case of three banns uniting their forces to face Loghain, with other cases of united opposition remaining unknown. Most banns showed only interest in maintaining autonomy on their own land, fighting off any attempt by Loghain to intimidate them.

The largest battle of the civil war saw the forces of the bannorn outnumber Loghain. However, due to the reagent's tactical prowess, the combined army of the Bannorn found itself defeated.Despite the victory of his Bannorn rivals, it ensured that Loghain would not gain their support, ensuring he could no longer effectivly recuit a Army to counter the Darkspawn in the south. The fact that Fereldan's remaining armies were too preoccupied fighting themselves only played into Urthemiel's hands: the darkspawn made use of the distraction to advance further into Fereldan unopposed. Many banns were able to push Loghain's troops back, only to then lose their holdings to the horde because their weakened forces couldn't stave off the darkspawn. Balitant (talk) 10:07, December 29, 2010 (UTC)

I think you've done a good job. it looks nice, even better, and fits well. You were pulling my leg with that "not good at editting" weren't you. Keep at it if you want.--Ironreaper (talk) 16:51, December 29, 2010 (UTC)

Word editing is not that difficult, I just find myself at a loss when it comes to linking, creating new section/pages, etc. Balitant (talk) 21:14, December 29, 2010 (UTC)

I would still suggest editing the part about Loghain knowing Cailan was considering leaving Anora for Celene. Regardless of what was cut, it seems clear from his dialogue in Return to Ostagar that he was surprised. Even if we ignore that, there's nothing in game to suggest that was still part of the plot. Ravenfirelight (talk) 07:38, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

Suggested Change (Antivan Crows)

If the Antivan Crows are going to be listed under "Belligerents" on the RHS box on Loghain's side (as appropriate, given Zevran, and Taliesin doesn't stop going after The Warden), then they should also be listed under the Warden's side--given that all of the Crow Assassination side quests in some way assist the Guerrin/Warden side of the war. Just a thought. ~Bethgael (114.77.174.136 (talk) 14:04, May 13, 2012 (UTC))

Done. Sporran (talk) 16:38, May 28, 2012 (UTC)

Howe's conquer of Highever as a part of war

Have you ever considered Howe's treason as a part of the civil war? I think the civil war began with that. He conquered Highever not long before his alliance with Loghain. Loghain gave Howe Denerim after he proclaimed himself as a regent, 3 titles for one noble, I don't believe that's a coincidence. Loghain allied with Howe, because he believed in his political skills as Anora claimed. Loghain knew about Howe's conquer of Highever and they both allied before Loghain took the royal power. Loghain needed powerful allies to gain power and most of nobles supported him, still there were many who questioned his rule. I just think Howe's treason can be recognized as a part of the civil war.78.8.10.229 (talk) 17:50, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

Tevinter's involvement

Tevinter wasn't heavily involved in the civil war. They took Fereldan city elves as slaves and in return they financially supported Loghain for his allowance. Tevinter soldiers were merely acting as enforcers of this allowance and neither actively nor passively participated any further in the civil war. Subsequently, I'm removing them from the page as they were not part of Loghain's strength. If they are going to be added back, please participate in this discussion first. 12:32, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

In my logic Tevinter slavers and their body guards were allied with Laghain as much as were Antivian Crows, epsecially when the Warden fought the soldiers with suns on their shields.78.8.244.187 (talk) 12:37, September 22, 2013 (UTC)Just call me Dalish fan

Officially the Tevinter slavers were healers and their bodyguards were protecting the guarantine. They were not involved in any way in the Civil war, except Caladrius who paid Loghain for his allowance. Hence Caladrius being listed as he supported Loghain's side, while the soldiers weren't, as they didn't. The fact that the Warden stormed their barracks, that act forced them to act for their self-interests as well as for their self-defense. 12:45, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

Tevinter slavers supported Loghain, he used money from them for both blight and civil war. Supporting one fraction of a conflict is enough to be involved in this conflict. I think Tevinter slavers should be restored.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 08:13, January 3, 2014 (UTC)

I think it'd be the wrong term to use the word "supported". Loghain is the Regent, Rendon Howe also the Arl of Denerim. They are the authority in Denerim so if Tevinters want to conduct some dealings in the Elven alienage, they need to collaborate with them.

That would probably be the same for other groups, say the Dwarven Merchants' Guild if they needed to conduct some major business in town. 14:09, January 3, 2014 (UTC)

Name Change

That wasn't the only civil war in Ferelden. After Arland's death was a civil war that lasted a decade, which was al least 200 years before the 5th Blight. I suggest to rename this page on the Second Feredlan Civil War.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 08:18, December 13, 2013 (UTC)

Well, the civil war in the Steel Age is named as "Dryden Rebellion". The question is whether this title is an official one or not. If it is not, then there are grounds for renaming both this and the other civil war page. 10:02, December 13, 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about the Sophia's rise ended with Battle of Soldier's Peak, I was talking about the civil war that happened years after that, Levi Dryden mentions after Arland's death in Ferelden was a 10 years lasting civil war. That's what I was talking about.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 10:19, December 13, 2013 (UTC)

Aha I see. Well, "Dryden Rebellion" could also be named as Fereldan civil war. So trying to add a number to the civil war of the Fifth Blight would only create confusion as we know nothing about the other civil wars. 10:24, December 13, 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps, "Civil War - Arland" and "Civil War - Loghain", to differentiate them? -Sophia (talk) 10:33, December 13, 2013 (UTC)

I'd rename Fereldan Civil War Loghain's coup. Another option is Fereldan Civil War (7:5-7:15) [No idea when Arland died] and Fereldan Civil War (9:30-9:31).FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 10:44, December 13, 2013 (UTC)

Ooh, the version with the dates looks good to me. It's unambiguous and adaptable. -Sophia (talk) 11:02, December 13, 2013 (UTC)

Let's hope we'll get more information about post Arland civil war. Right now I'm going to rename the civil war that was in DAO.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 11:07, December 13, 2013 (UTC)

Article name revisited

Using the date 9:30 Dragon in the article title is misleading, as the war actually ocurred from 9:30 - 9:31. In fact, nowhere on this article does it state that the Civil War ended in 9:31. The discussion above about the article needing a date because there was also a civil war after Arland Theirin's death never really came to a conclusion before the article was renamed. Seeing as how we don't have any other articles about civil wars in Ferelden, and the info we have about the one after Arland's death consists of a single sentence on his article, I don't see the need to have a date in the title at all. But if a date is desired, we still should change it to reflect that it ocurred during two years. So (9:30 - 9:31 Dragon) --♫ Kelcat ^Talk 04:48, October 27, 2014 (UTC)

I would favour returning to the title without the date. Given that we don't have enough information to warrant a full article on the civil war during arland's reign, I think ferelden civil war is fine. Or at least just "Ferelden Civil War (Dragon Age)"

- 04:50, October 27, 2014 (UTC)

I'm against removing the date because even if we don't know much about the civil war during Arland's reign except its final battle, it did still happen. The wiki also serves as an encyclopedia so we cannot disregard that war.

As for the date options, I'm okay with both versions. 05:20, October 30, 2014 (UTC)