Talk:Dragon Age Keep

Leaked images

Do we really want to add leaked pictures officially to the article? I have no idea if it could lead to any trouble, but I find it risky - and also, we haven't added the leaked achievements pictures (though admittedly that was a lot shakier than this) so why should we add these now? But really my main concern is that they haven't officially revealed anything and I don't think this is really safe. -- 12:32, August 19, 2014 (UTC)

Ah ok sorry, just trying to improve things on the wiki but your right. Do what you think is best, I won't upload anymore :) Xsari (talk) 13:42, August 19, 2014 (GMT)

I know and that's a really good thing, I'm just kind of paranoid about such things. I mean, a forum is just watercooler stuff but articles feel a bit more official. But anyway thanks for checking in here! -- 12:47, August 19, 2014 (UTC)

I think we could just hold off for now. For one, the images are of very small resolution. And two, may be (though probably isn't) a very elaborate fake. henioo ^{(da talk page)} 14:33, August 19, 2014 (UTC)

Agree. They are leaks that no doubt break the NDA, and are rather low resolution. In addition, I really think it unnecessary to feature EVERY image in the gallery; when the time comes, perhaps two or three that illustrate the various features of the keep. Alexsau1991 ^{(talk page)} 14:51, August 19, 2014 (UTC)

The pictures look legit, but they might also be fakes, for all we know. Better wait for official confirmation before we add anything, I say. --Koveras Alvane (talk) 20:21, August 19, 2014 (UTC)

Given that BioWare found out who leaked the images and banned the crap out of them (as did 4-chan where the images were originally posted), I'd say it's not worth the risk of posting them on the wiki. I don't know if they'd take any action, but they've "asked" for things to be removed from here in the past. --Kelcat (talk) 23:29, August 19, 2014 (UTC)

Official reveal vid

This looks legit. I have no idea how to add videos to articles, however. --Koveras Alvane (talk) 07:01, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

More platforms?

The Keep is accessible on most devices that can access the internet. It was accessed on an Xbox in the most recent stream. Currently, the infobox only shows PC as its platform. Should the platform section be removed or should all platforms be added?

--Fus1onpanda (talk) 16:57, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

I'd say all the platforms to be added in order to avoid needless confusion. 17:03, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

I would prefer just saying something along the lines of "HMTL5 support required" to avoid having to list every single operating system that supports Opera, Mozilla, and other modern browsers. --Koveras Alvane (talk) 18:54, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

Choices formatting

How about making it a table (because I like tables)? Like this:

Choices not in italics represent the Default World State.

The Warden
Identity	Various Origins (DWS: Lyna Mahariel, Dalish Elf Warrior)
Fate	Died killing the Archdemon // Alive and well
Companions
Romance	No one // Alistair // Morrigan // Leliana // Zevran

With some hacks, I can probably even make individual sections collapsible. --Koveras Alvane (talk) 07:17, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

It's a great idea. This is actually what I wanted to do but I couldn't figure out how to get it to show properly. I also really like the idea of saving space by outlining the default canon using italics rather than a seperate table.--Swampshade (talk) 14:21, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

I agree it could really use some reformatting but the proposed table looks a bit too cluttered to my mind. - 14:25, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

I like the idea of a table but I agree with HD3. It still has the problem that made me put on the cleanup tag - which is that every choice is next to each other separated only by a //. Once I have a bit of time I'll try to look into how I can make it into a table too. -- 16:46, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

Actually found the time now, I made two variants in my sandbox, I'm in favor of the second one as that's a lot clearer, I made the first one only to have one big DAO table - but there are too many title boxes like that. I may convert the information gathered on the article into the second form, though feedback would be still appreciated. -- 18:40, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

I had a similar idea myself but I am afraid that since we have a lot of binary choices and only a few with really multiple options (like Loghain and Alistair's fates), we will end up with a lot of empty space in the article. Maybe instead of aligning the options horizontally, we could make them line up vertically with a list (the first line would always be the DWS)? --Koveras Alvane (talk) 21:11, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

Companions
Loghain's fate	Loghain executed by the Warden Loghain executed by Alistair Loghain killed in a duel by Alistair Loghain died killing the Archdemon Loghain alive and well

I think there's both binary and non-binary number of choices pretty much in equal measure as I'm scrolling through. I also think that box could potentially end up being really narrow and would look kind of weird. But I'd like to see how both would work out at their fullest, when all data is added, so I'm going to try your example too in my sandbox (or you can go ahead too if you have time, I know I have some time to fiddle with that right now). -- 21:25, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

Gave it some thought now, I'm curious what you guys think.
I still kept experimenting in my sandbox, you can check that if that's any more appealing. But after about roughly 2 hours of experimenting, I got to the conclusion (after receiving some advice) that we could simply use headers and subheaders, meaning == this == and === this ===, so pretty much how it is right now - except we would make it a list rather than just pour all the information next to each other. That way we could expand on the choices especially later, an explanation to the newcomers what leads to for example Zevran's death, and later we could add what it affects in Inquisition (if it does). So just you could imagine, in raw it'd look something like:

== List of choices ==
=== Dragon Age: Origins ===
==== Hero ====

1. Identity
   • Canon option: brief background and how it may affect the game
   • Other option: brief background and how it may affect the game
   • Other option etc: brief background and how it may affect the game
2. Dead or Alive
   • Dead: how is this possible and how it may affect the game
   • Alive: how is this possible and how it may affect the game

After trying out all sorts of ways to make it look good in the DAO table (which may change in the near future by the way, so it's not the most fortunate to work with that), I'm in favor of this instead. Also if it gets a bit too long we could eventually break the page into subpages like Keep/Dragon Age: Origins and things like that. Oh and is it for sure that the female Dalish elf is the canon one? Because in my Keep the default one is the male city elf. -- 23:35, October 30, 2014 (UTC)

I like all these ideas, so I'm not much help there :D But I would be in favor of splitting the choices off into one or more pages, and leaving this as a main page giving an overview of the Keep, how it works, and what kinds of features are in it (the various functions, Varric's storytelling, how to choose a saved Warden, etc). Otherwise this will make for a very long page, as I can see the basic info about the Keep being expanded.

Oh, and the default Warden in the Keep for me is indeed the female dalish elf. --♫ Kelcat ^Talk 00:04, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! Must be something screwy with my Keep, then. -- 00:38, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

Ditto, my default Warden was a Dalish girl, too.

Regarding the formatting, I am OK with making this a list with headers, but in this case, I want it off the main Keep page from the start to avoid overloading its TOC with headers. Much like character dialogue, I think such detailed information belongs on a subpage, anyway. Also, I would advise against using the term "canon option", because DWS and "BioWare canon" are technically different things. :P --Koveras Alvane (talk) 07:20, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

Oh I know, I'm a lot more specific when I write stuff in actual articles. Anyway, thought I'd show what it'd look pretty much with headers and subheaders and explanations. Here is my second sandbox, I intend to add some more to it and if it's okay with everyone eventually I add those to a subpage of the Keep (because I do believe we should do that, too). Probably I won't go into details that much with the rest of the choices, it's just for those, who just come here to know what's behind the choices in the Keep as they have never played the previous games, it'd be nice to have some basic, brief information on the background of the origins. Just mentioning this in case anyone worries about potential spoilers. -- 18:12, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

Do we really need even that much detail? We do have separate and detailed pages on individual origins and major quests, so we could just link them from the options list. We are trying to make this subpage more easily navigable here, not turn it into a full-blown article. I would personally favor a bullet list with short notes, preferably even shorter than in the Keep itself, but with links to all the articles relevant to a particular choice. I think our purpose should be not to duplicate the Keep's contents, but to make it easier to refreshing one's memory about the context of particular choices in it. --Koveras Alvane (talk) 20:24, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

I never intended to duplicate (especially since the choices aren't described in the Keep as far as I could see), just a brief summary of what's the background of a choice and the possible effects of it in Inquisition - and as I said, I wrote only of the origins in detail, the rest wouldn't be so detailed. That's really for those who never played the game before and would like to know what they'd choose as a Warden. After all, there aren't only players who have been DA fans for ages now, there are always some newcomers too. Also if this brief summary is already too long to simply refresh the memory, how would be full articles linked to the page be any shorter? Genuine question, someone who has played the game before wouldn't even need the descriptions, someone who has never played the game might not want to read through a full article, just the summary, which could potentially be a sentence or two, for example: Aveline's quest -> The captain of the guard has troubles with expressing how she feels, so she asks you to help her. You do *bulletin points* this, this or this. Of course, I should've written those kind of examples too not just the origins, I just thought I could start from the beginning. -- 20:52, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Koveras Alvane that we do not want to turn it into a full blown article. But, I think context is important and it is there that I disagree with his conclusions that we do not need to duplicate the Keep's content. As a player I want to be conscious of the choices I am making in Dragon Age Keep and I would like to see, at a glance, the context behind those choices. Here's why. My first impression of Dragon Age Keep is that I liked that there are choices. But as it has been a long time since I played Dragon Age: Origins I could not remember who key people were (e.g. Elora). I also don't remember exactly what my choices were (e.g. Demon Baby, Human Baby, etc) but I do remember certain parts of the game. By providing context to each choice it jogs the readers's memory and helps them recall what choices they might have made in the game. So we should reiterate the choices as presented in the Keep and then provide a context behind that choice itself. -- tierrie talk contr 21:53, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

As Kelcat mentioned above. I think that the Dragon Age Keep should be about the game/app itself. What it is. What platform it runs on. And what it's purpose is (e.g. backstory, etc). The choices itself should be in a separate article (or perhaps multiple articles) that articulates what the choices represent and how they impact the users game in Dragon Age: Inquisition (which we will not know as of right now). -- tierrie talk contr 21:56, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

Dragon Age: Origins

Nature of the Beast

How did the Warden resolve the Warden resolve the problems between the Werewolves and the Elves? (Background Context Here) Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur.

(Default) The werewolves were cured of their decades-long curse, and the Dalish joined the Warden's forces against the Blight.

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.

Swayed by the pleas of the Lady of the Forest, the Warden eliminated the Dalish and gained the werewolves as allies.

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.

The Warden eliminated the werewolf threat, forging an alliance with the Dalish.

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.

What about something like this? It presents the choices in a article-like presentation, and it removes the need for a table. It is easily readable and the images provides a nice counterbalance to the text. -- tierrie talk contr 21:48, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

I think it looks awesome. I didn't do it not only due to lack of images for all the choices (for that reason I already reached out for Mostlyautumn), but I haven't even thought about it before trying to format the article. It looks a lot easier to navigate with images like that while also leaves enough space for memory-refreshment. -- 22:46, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! I think the images should be bigger and perhaps require a small border. But I think this is a good place to be. See if User:Mostlyautumn can help with the design and/or template of this. If he can't I will try to spare some time. -- tierrie talk contr 23:58, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

I think we all agree by now that this has to go on the a separate page and that some kind of list with headers and subheaders is the way to do it. Images are a very nice touch, but I am still uncertain that we need THAT much text. We already have a lot of duplicated retellings of game events on this wiki, e.g. in quest summaries and in "historical" articles, and if we write out the context for each and every one of the Keep choices, we'd duplicate some of that content for the third time. That would make the summaries even more difficult to maintain and can potentially lead to different articles saying slightly different things, leading to reader confusion. I have seen this happening on too many wikis already.

Also, to address Margerard's concern about "how would full articles linked to the page be any shorter" from an earlier comment, my vision was that a potential reader actually starts off by perusing the Keep, with its own illustrations and summaries, and if they cannot remember the context of a particular choice, they go to our subpage, look it up, and immediately find links to all the relevant articles on this wiki (like who Elora was, in Tierrie's particular example). "Not duplicating the Keep's contents" for me means that our subpage should complement the Keep, not be a standalone refresher course on the DA canon. --Koveras Alvane (talk) 08:52, November 1, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I do think the lists are going to be on a subpage, and considering the potential length, it'll be a list for each game at the least.

It seems you still think with someone who already has played Dragon Age. There are quite a few people on the chat I meet from time to time (admittedly not in huge numbers, but they occur), who are just about to play the games or won't even play the games before Inquisition. While I realize for some that'd be just weird, to play the third game without playing the first two, but it has happened to me before too (I played Dragon Age II, Mass Effect 3, Saints Row 4 etc. first) for certain reasons.

I still don't believe it would count as duplication when it would really be just the briefest summary possible. When I was writing the summary for example, I kept double checking everything on various articles so it'd be accurate and avoid the concerns you mentioned, because it really can happen. But doesn't mean it can't be maintained, just that it's not so easy, right? And if it's more worth it than just a huge table (and I must say, again, it's in the plans that it'll change along with the Wiki redesign), then a bit more difficult maintenance isn't quite a big deal in my opinion.

So no, I don't believe brief summaries would become duplications or full blown articles. They will be potentially one, two, or three sentenced summaries (unless it's something special like the origins, that's supposed to target those who don't have Wardens to import because they have never played the games before) and will not repeat the same things their respective articles will. Also, every summary would link to the quests or characters too, so if anyone's interested in the full article, they have the option.

All this said of course, you do have valid points, but I don't believe the design of it would be as bad or difficult to handle, and keeping those concerns in mind one can avoid making those mistakes I'm sure. -- 18:19, November 1, 2014 (UTC)