|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Cousland family article.|
Cousland name origin Edit
- Nothing as far as I know, but it's a village in Scotland (Highever is supposedly based off Scotland.) 22:22, September 19, 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I doubt it's a coincidence that that part of Ferelden is called the Coastlands. - Wandrew (talk) 11:14, August 30, 2015 (UTC)
Royalty Status Edit
Edited out the bit that says the couslands are Royalty, since if The Warden marries Anora she is the Monarch and The Mac Tir's the royal family whereas the Warden is merely A Consort. Their Marriage is a matrilineal marriage what with Anora not wanting to rule in A Husbands shadow and all. Not to mention one can't marry into a royal family and become royal themselves (Kate Middleton is not recognized as a member of the House of Windsor for example) --XxDeonxX (talk) 13:42, December 30, 2013 (UTC)
- Well, I wouldn't want to bring iRL comparisons as the system used in UK monarchy may not be the same with Ferelden's. But I agree, the Warden is just a consort in both Anora's and Alistair's case. 14:51, December 30, 2013 (UTC)
Indeed, Just using It to point out one does not become royalty simply by Marrying loyalty, especially not ones noble house. There is no historical precedent at all I can think of where someone's house becomes the royal family simply because they married into it, Countries tend to only ever have one Royal family and in the case of Ferelden it is only ever The Theirin's (Alistair) or The Mac Tirs (Anora with Warden or sole ruler) --XxDeonxX (talk) 04:18, December 31, 2013 (UTC)
The Fact that Anora / Alistair are declared the ruler and monarch of Ferelden while we are give the title of Prince-Consort / Queen-Consort. The fact that the word Consort is there outlines the fact we are in fact not the ruler and thus not Royalty, and just because we have married Royalty does not elevate our house to Royalty --XxDeonxX (talk) 07:09, December 31, 2013 (UTC)
Anora marries a royal, but herself is just a daughter of a teyrn. Both Alistair and Cailan are the kings, and she is a queen conort to them, with this logic. Henio0 (talk) 07:28, December 31, 2013 (UTC)
Indeed she is the Queen-Consort when married to Cailan and if married to Alistair. She isn't royalty at this time but can become royalty if Cousland marries her or you make her sole monarch however since she is acknowledged by the Landsmeet as the sitting Monarch then. Before that Cailan was the sitting Monarch and he is Royalty whereas she is not, same with if Alistair is on the throne --XxDeonxX (talk) 07:41, December 31, 2013 (UTC)
I am still not convinced that the British rules apply in DA. For one, Anora would never become a Queen if married to Alistair because Alistair is the heir to the royal family. Besides, IRL the title of king is always higher than that of a queen because of the whole thing with males being the first in line to inherit things. But this is a fictional world of Dragon Age where women and men seem to have the same rights. If that is different to our world, who's to say that a prince-consort isn't actually royal in Ferelden? Unless we get a direct answer from a dev, I'd say we should keep the status as royal, with the (disputed), as it really is disputable. Henio0 (talk) 07:59, December 31, 2013 (UTC)
Anora isnt the queen if she marries Alistair, she's the Queen-Consort Which is evident by the fact that if the Warden becomes Chancellor everybody defers to the crown which is Alistair (See Chancellor Epilogue slides when both are on the throne). She only becomes Queen if she marries the Warden or rules alone. There were King-Consorts IRL who did not rule but instead were ruled by the Queen it's called A Matrilineal marriage and its not unheard of among nobles marrying people of higher station then themselves (Such as a Male Duke (Teyrn) Marrying a Queen) Consorts are never royalty, which is why The Couslands are not royalty. Because the Warden can never be an actual King or Queen. But A Prince-Consort or Queen-Consort which is made clear to us in game and the epilogues. The gender equality thing is not relevent, its the whole fact that our title is that of consort that makes very clear the couslands aren't Royalty. These aren't the rules of Britain these are the general rules of royalty. --XxDeonxX (talk) 08:54, December 31, 2013 (UTC)
- I realise this argument a couple of weeks or so old, still I want to add my two cent. XxDeonxX you are wrong, those are not the rules of royalty. When one marries into royalty, they become royal themselves; Kate Middleton is indeed a member of the House of Windsor, she is a princess of the United Kingdom. This is true in the case of all consorts, no matter the status of the family. Henrietta Maria of France, for example, was born into the French House of Bourbon, and became a member of the English House of Stuart - she was a royal both by birth and by marriage. As a Princess of France, she was a member of the House of Bourbon. As Queen of England, she was a member of the House of Stuart.
- That is precisely the point, which is where you are correct, though for the wrong reasons. If the Cousland noble becomes King or Queen consort, then he or she IS royalty, but by virtue of their marriage not their birth. Rightly or wrongly, the title of King and Queen belongs to the Therin or Mac Tir family, and the noble has gained by virtue of marriage to them. Not that it makes any sense that Anora becomes a contender for Queen simply because she was a former consort, the human noble would be a far more realistic contender. But alas, in their wisdom that wasn't something the writers considered, thus is not (yet) the case. But yeah, Royalty has no place there as until they become the royal family the title of consort is gained by virtue of marriage.
- Finally, Anora does indeed become Queen if she marries Alistair, not consort, they hold the throne as joint monarchs like William III and Mary II of England. Also, matrilineal marriages are incredibly rare, even for Queen regents. For example, upon marriage Queen Victoria remained a member of the House of Hanover, but her children were of the House of Saxe-Coberg, their father's house even though he was Prince consort. There's nothing to suggest that the Cousland Warden's marriage to Anora was matrilineal. Alexsau1991 (talk page) 15:43, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
Edit: Nvm, I was getting mixed up with the naming conventions. One can marry into a royal house but that doesn't give you any claims or privileges besides the use of an honorary title, and it certainly doesn't make your house a recognized Royal house. But even when you marry into a royal family you retain your name, so Catherine Middleton is a member of the House of Windsor but when she married William she did not become Catherine Windsor
So if the warden becomes royalty this doesn't make their house a Royal House.
Anora being a contender for queen makes sense since she was the one governing the country for 5 years and not Cailan and not only is the line of Canlenhad thought extinct and Alistair being an unacknowledged bastard so his legitimacy is extremely questionable, But Ferelden is actually a Elective Monarchy, the Landsmeet elects it Monarchs thus anybody can be King or Queen of Ferelden so long as they get a vote in the landsmeet.
Anora makes more sense that a human noble since the nobles don't even know anything about him besides him being Bryce's son.. He has never participated in the politics of the nation before unlike Anora who was running the country for the past 5 years.
As to Anora becoming Queen if she marries Alistair, she doesn't. She is the Queen-Consort as is made clear in the epilogue slides if the Warden becomes their Chancellor. Everybody in the landsmeet defers to Alistairs judgement and depending on whether you killed Loghain or not Alistair will either ignore the Warden Chancellor and follow Anoras advice, or he will ignore her and follow the Warden and she will essentially have no say in governance. were she a Queen-Regnant she wouldn't be so powerless --XxDeonxX (talk) 19:12, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
- Then you'd be wrong. It is true, for Kate Middleton and every Royal Family in Europe. It's standard Royal convention, always has been. I know this because I have studied it in detail. Wikipedia should be enough for you, so go check Kate Middleton, Queen Sofía of Spain, Queen Máxima of the Netherlands and Grand Duchess Maria Teresa of Luxembourg and you'll notice that they are all listed as members of their husband's house, which are Windsor, Bourbon, Orange-Nassau and Nassau-Weilburg respectively. But if you don't want to take wikipedia's word for it, check out the offical UK monarchy website, under the "current Royal Family" includes The Duchess of Cambridge, Countess of Wessex and others who are members by marriage.
- Please note, that I already clearly stated that this being true doesn't make the Couslands a royal house, as the Warden becomes royalty by virtue of marriage, not by birth.
- We don't know the level of the Cousland Warden's political interaction, he or she are recognised by most of Ferelden's nobles. He or she was widely expected to inherit Highever, over Fergus, and on a familial basis, even Anora recognised the usefulness of having a Cousland on the throne beside her. Alistair is recognised by almost no Fereldan nobles, besides Eamon, which makes that entire point moot anyway.
- With regards to Anora being Alistair's consort, or joint monarch, the epilogue slide actually says that as Chancellor the Warden can usually be found arguing with Anora about matters of state, and enjoys far greater influence in the Kingdom that she would like. If Alistair is hardened it says that they both rule the kingdom together, making the Chancellor all but unnecessary. Ultimately, Anora agrees to wed Alistair because she doesn't want to be consort, all dialogue and text says that they are joint monarchs. In every Landsmeet outcome that results her become Queen, she is Queen regent not Queen consort. Alexsau1991 (talk page) 00:29, January 16, 2014 (UTC)
- Hmm, right then. When a women marries into the Royal Family she does not retain her name unless she is a more senior member of a different royal family. The Duchess of Cambridge is not Catherine Windsor for the same reason that Prince William is not William Windsor, titled royals don't have surnames. And the surname that they would use if they didn't have a title would be Mountbatten-Windsor, not Windsor.
- The only reason it may seem that consorts retain their maiden name is that unlike monarchs they don't receive regnal numerals, thus their maiden name is often used as a term of differentiation (if they are not foreign royalty). The Duchess of Cambridge will be Queen Catherine from the day she becomes Queen to the day she dies, but once she dies she will be known as the Catherine Middleton to differentiate her from the other 5 Queen Catherines of England. Alexsau1991 (talk page) 10:22, January 16, 2014 (UTC)
- Additionally, "One can marry into a royal house but that doesn't give you any claims or privileges besides the use of an honorary title." - The titles are not honorary, they allow the consort to share their husbands rank, and thus all the privileges afforded to a full member of the royal family. Alexsau1991 (talk page) 10:40, January 16, 2014 (UTC)
In the article is says "The outpost of Highever was originally held by the Elstan Family, a secondary branch of the Howe family". Now, can we get a reference to prove that? I thought Elstan family died with the arl, and then it was taken over by captain of the guard, the Cousland. And presumingly then and years later Howes were only freeholders when Calenhad became king. Henio0 (talk) 18:45, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
- It did, the Elstan family were cousins of the Howes (Codex entry: Highever). They were apparently a bannorn sworn to Amaranthine in the days while it too was still only a bannorn. It's not clear when the Howes became Arls, but since Arls were appointed by Teyirns it's possible they were appointed by the Teyrns of Highever - thus anytime after the Black Age. Alexsau1991 (talk page) 20:34, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
- Right, yeah, so the article is misleading. It says that the Elstan family were cousins to the arls of Amaranthine, but it was not at all like that. We just don't know who took over Amaranthine after Arl Elstan's death. Henio0 (talk) 20:38, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
- Now I am confusing myself. I thought Elstans also ruled Amaranthine, but I guess that's not true, is it? Anyway, I shall edit the article to remove the wrong info. Henio0 (talk) 20:41, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, the Elstans of Highever were Banns sworn to their cousins the Howe family, who as far as I can tell were the Banns of Amaranthine, rather than Arls. Alexsau1991 (talk page) 20:53, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
- We don't know that. Because it seems really unlikely that they were Arls then, and then not (for they were freeholders supporting Calenhad), and then they were arls again. I don't believe there is a source that states they became nobles before the Couslands. Henio0 (talk) 20:55, January 26, 2014 (UTC)