Talk: Cole

Can we get a copy of the full image of Cole? I know it isn't on the book cover but there is one that shows Cole's whole head because it showed up a few times in various Bioware staff twitters. E.G Printed on the Elevator doors. I don't know if there's a full image of it on the net though.-HD3 (talk) 02:01, October 4, 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry about that. The image is large as it is, and I attempted to erase logos and other text from the original image from Asunder and I don't have the skill to do so and make it look good. Maybe a clean image does exist somewhere? I'll keep my eyes open for the elevator image.--WardenWade (talk) 12:30, October 4, 2013 (UTC)

Is Cole really formerly human or is he a spirit taking the guise of a human who used to live and went by the name Cole? Thus he isn't really a human as he was never Cole in the first place but assumed his form and identity. He was a spirit comforted the human formerly known as Cole. Thus, his race isn't formerly human but a Spirit and he's not a mage then.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 11:24, October 9, 2013 (UTC))

@Sports72Xtrm, you mean Cole in the book stole name of a mage with that name like in Mass Effect the annoying antagonist of ME3:Citadel stole surname Brooks in comic ME:Foundation?78.8.102.205 (talk) 12:40, October 9, 2013 (UTC)

It said, "Cole explains that there was in fact a human mage named Cole who had been brought to the dungeons of the Spire and his cries had attracted the spirit who now posed as Cole, who had stayed with him to console him until the very end. The templars later erased all evidence of his existence to hide their shame." So I assume the Cole that everyone forgets is a spirit who takes the identity of a mage that died who was formerly known as Cole. A better analogy would be like Shepard Clone taking over the identity of real Shepard in Mass Effect:Citadel with Shepard Clone being the Spirit and real Shepard being Cole who died years ago.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 12:44, October 9, 2013 (UTC))

I fully agree with Sports72Xtrm, Cole is a spirit rather than human and he's not a mage. I edited the article accordingly. Asherinka (talk) 09:56, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Background section

Isn't it lifted verbatim from the website? Because that would consistent a blatant copyright violation. --Koveras Alvane (talk) 08:20, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

It's not completely verbatim (one or two words have been changed or omitted), but there are enough phrases lifted word-for-word that I'm pretty sure it constitutes as plaigarism. --Kelcat (talk) 22:37, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

Do we have rules against that on this wiki? --Koveras Alvane (talk) 05:33, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

I can’t find anything specific in the guidelines, but it kind of seems like bad practice to me. This kind of background section isn’t really consistent with those of other characters, either. I’ve tried to rework it to make it more unique, and added a block quote excerpt from the character profile with source. Hopefully that at least helps as a starting point.--Kelcat (talk) 00:31, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

That works, thank you. :) --Koveras Alvane (talk) 15:35, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Gender

Cole's host seems to be a spirit that possesed a human body, not unlike Justice. It adapted so well in fact, that it took over Cole's memories and so forth, and we know that Justice knew of Kristoff's memories soon after possesing, so that's another thing they have in common. But to the point. I mentioned Justice because on the page we describe Justice as "it", genderless, as it is a spirit. However, on here Cole is described as male. I wonder if we should change the article to make it more about the spirit that possesed the body, and not the persona it pretends to be. Henio0 (talk) 10:23, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

@Henio0 "Cole" the spirit doesn't remember much about the time before he began imitating Cole the mage. Justice is described as a spirit because it is aware and accepts that it does not have a gender, since it represents justice, a metaphysical concept that encompasses it's being and way of thinking. "Cole" has forgotten what he once was and has entirely adopted Cole the mage's identity as his own. It really comes down to if gender is something we determine for ourselves or if we have (or don't have) it from the moment we came to exist. If it is self determined, then Cole is male. If it isn't, then he is an "it". Due to the fluidity of the Fade, it is pretty certain that Cole the spirit could represent whatever gender he/she/it prefers. Justice's status as genderless is pretty much by its own admission also. Therefore it is probably prudent to continue to refer to Cole as "he" until he or the developers say otherwise. Ireyon12 (talk) 12:04, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

Demons, and thus spirits, do not have genders. It doesn't matter what sex they may choose to appear as. They're neither men nor women. Henio0 (talk) 12:22, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

They don't have genders because they're sentient beings of emotions like desire or concepts like justice. That they don't have a human body doesn't even factor into the decision. If a person dies/changes shape/whatever he or she doesn't suddenly stop being male or female. Having a certain or no gender is an immutable characteristic of what makes someone a person. We simply don't know enough about that character to say who or what he/she/it once was or presently is. The point is that Cole the spirit itself doesn't know what exactly he is, so neither do we. Until he remembers or someone has more information, we have to accept that he refers to himself as a "he", not an it. By the way, Cole isn't posessing a body like Justice. If he did, that body would have been left behind when he temporarily faded. Ireyon12 (talk) 14:22, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

Whatever explanation for it possessing Cole will arise, it doesn't change the fact that it was created as a genderless spirit. Shale was born female, but golems are genderless. She's still a woman, in golem's body. And so the spirit is a spirit in human's body. I am not sure what you mean by temporarily fading as I've not read the book, but it may just be his spirit assassin skill, unique to this kind of spirit possesing living beings, like the spirit possessing Wynne can revive her. Henio0 (talk) 14:29, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

Ah. That might be part of the problem, since what little we know about Cole is in the book. He's not possessing anybody like Justice and the spirit in Wynne. All that we know is that he as a disembodied being found the original Cole who was slowly starving to death in the circle dungeons and kept him company until the mage died. Apparently he then started to copy the mage's appearance and personality to the degree that he actually forgot who and what he used to be and lived in the circle tower. When Lord Seeker Lambert fought Cole he used the Litany of Adralla to banish Cole, showing that he maintained himself with magic and had no actual body. When Justice left Kristoffs body in the Awakening epilogue, the corpse just fell over. The problem is that we really can't say if Cole is a traditional fade spirit because he does not behave in any manner like those we met in any of the books or games. He doesn't stay focused single mindedly on one goal (like Justice) and doesn't try to only satisfy his cravings (like a demon). He "mercy" kills mages in the tower who despair over their fate but stops when Rhys asks him to. That's the reason the reveal is so surprising: you literally couldn't tell Cole apart from an normal, if depressed, human. He behaves completely atypical compared to normal spirits in both the malicious and benevolent category that I don't think we can make a judgement either way on what rules should apply. We should go with the fact that Cole perceives himself as male. Ireyon12 (talk) 18:40, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. King Cousland | Talk   13:23, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

Images in the gallery

This subject has no doubt been raised before, but I wasn't to just question what images we should include in an article. While I admit I'm not a fan of galleries in general, as they generally just include images that couldn't be fitted within the article's content, I realise that they are here to say. Instead I say that an image shouldn't be included in said galleries simply because they exist. Articles really shouldn't become repositories of every piece of screenshot/concept art that BioWare releases.

In this article for example, we've got two of Cole in the Western Decolation, from different angles (helpfully annotated as such). We don't need both, can I suggest we remove one, and maybe move the drawing of Cole from Asunder to the article its self? Alexsau1991 ^{(talk page)} 19:50, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

I agree about the similar images and needless annotations being removed (even though I put a few of the annotations on myself, like the Cole at different angle lol, see it's silly now). Some of the gallery's are becoming quite cluttered. Think the drawing of Cole should stay though as it's relevant to the character and Asunder. Xsari (talk) 21:30, June 25, 2014 (GMT)

I have to admit, the annotation of Cole wearing a hat did make me smile! And you misunderstand me, I don't think the drawing of Cole from Asunder should be moved from this article; quite the contrary, I think it should be moved from the gallery to the section of the article referring to Asunder. Alexsau1991 ^{(talk page)} 20:59, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Oh I see what you mean now! Yes I think that would be better as well. Xsari (talk) 22:15, June 25, 2014 (GMT)

"Now I walk..." Quote

Hello. I'm sure that quote was not in Asunder, but I also don't know where to move it. Also, the only place I could find it in was David Gaider's Tumblr. Should it be included at all? From the looks of it, it seemed like some sort of fanservice to me, rather than being "official/canon". --Phanvrad (talk) 05:33, June 29, 2014 (UTC)

Spirit or demon?

I thought of "sitting down" here and talk about that a little, as I was thinking of reverting the edits about his demon origin as well, but that could easily result in an edit war. I do believe he should be called a spirit until the game's release, in which I'm sure they'd elaborate on what he really is. While in the interview with Weekes the word "demon" has been used more often, for one, he's said to be "somewhere on the Demon-or-Spirit Spectrum of Fade Creatures", which means there's room for each possibilty. But what's more defining, I think, is that "he would rather be a spirit. He's trying." Reading the summaries, while I see WardenWade's points, the reasons are still more of speculations for the changes, especially as he expressed it's his opinion. And if the edit was really mostly based on opinion, then I really think we should just wait until it is actually confirmed officially or in-game.
(Also, just noticed Norqi reverted it anyway, but I'm still going to leave this here.) -- 16:09, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

I figured I'd revert it to what it was before the back and forth stuff started, which had Cole being referred to as a "spirit." (I think? Could be wrong.) As far as my actual opinion goes, the term spirit seems more neutral and makes more sense to use. Not all spirits are demons, but all demons are spirits. "Spirit" as a more general term works just fine. Norqi (talk) 16:27, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this up :) "Spirit" has been used ambiguously by the developers and in marketing. Spirits and demons are technically the same sorts of entities according to the lore, but calling Cole simply a "spirit" (and adding him in with the usual virtuous Fade entities) seems to me personally to be--based on the information we have through the use of the Litany as well as the fact of Cole's either killing people or manipulating them into killing others--potentially a bit generalized. It's tough because the interview with Patrick Weekes could lend as much evidence towards his being a misguided spirit as a demon, and Cole is a sympathetic character.

However, we do know that Cole was responsible directly or indirectly for murder, attracted to negative emotions and appeared to latch onto the original mortal Cole, which seems like more "demon" than standard "spirit" (rather than just Fade entity) behavior to me. Even if he began as a spirit, he seemed to me to have become something demonic in his--at least initial--need to kill people; similar to Justice becoming Vengeance. And as I mentioned, the Litany in theory, as I understand it, should not have dispelled Cole's influence on Rhys and Lambert if he were not a demon (as he was confirmed not to be using blood magic). It stuns demons and Cole was stunned, and banished, at least temporarily. As you mentioned in the Weekes interview, Cole would rather be a spirit and is trying, which seemed to me to indicate he is not yet a spirit but that is his aspiration. Similarly, Cole's story arc in Asunder was based on his confusion as to his nature; he may still be confused. As you mentioned, Margerard, we'll need to wait for Inquisition to determine if he changes or not. Thanks for creating this talk topic :)--WardenWade (talk) 16:42, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Personally, to me he seems to be someone a lot more gray morally than to easily sort him as a demon or (benevolent) spirit, but spirit is more vague and general, so until we know more, I think that would suffice, but as I said, I see your points as well.

But anyway, I'm glad if we reached consensus quickly - which would be to wait for more confirmation where he is actually on the scale. :) -- 16:54, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

That sounds fine. It will be interesting to find out how things turn out for Cole, and we'll run from there. Thanks, Margerard, Norqi and Alexsau :)--WardenWade (talk) 19:35, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Cole is a human

I still think Cole is a human somehow affected by demonic/spiritual power, not something disguised as human Cole. The most obvious prof is that Litany of Adralla is actually holds the power "to stun demons and stop mind-controlling blood magic". So if his human form was some mind tricks, when the Lord Seeker uses it on him, it should be torn his disguise apart. But Rhys still seeing Cole as a human, not some spirit or demon. The Litany of Adralla only disrupt his invisibility, not physical appearance, not even his combat skill. And I believed what defines us as human is whether we are capable of feelings and emotions, and do we have our self-identity and free will. I consider he has, then he is a human, the rest of things are merely labels.