How would you solve the mage "problem"? Would you get rid of templar supervision? Would you enforce stricter rules?
WELL if I had enough power to tell people what to do, I'd do this:
First, all the mages and templars go to the Vimmark Mountains and clear out Corypheus's Tower. And they bond while working together ^-^. THEN we hire some dwarves to seal off every possible deep roads entrance ever. And then some mages enchant them with wards or whatevers. So, now we have an empty Tower, with rings of open tunnels all around it and bridges leading to them. And no darkspawn. Okay, good. NOW, all the mages live in the outer rings. The tower will be for teaching purposes. They can even use the bottom level for like potion experiments and stuff. Now, FAR AWAY (but still in sight) Templars should surround the tower, like with barricades and stations every here and there. They can make sure nothing unwanted goes in or out. Plus, since it's in the middle of hot desert nowhere, maybe that'll keep the mages from -wanting- to escape? Hiking through sand=/= fun. But anyways these templars can run in at a moments notice to handle any trouble. Well, more like 10 minutes notice, they should be like a mile away. Also, relatives/friends of the mages should be able to visit at their own 'risk'. They pass through the templar barricade, they sign in and write how long they wish to stay, and then they visit. When it's time to go, they walk back to the barricade and sign out. If they're late, a templar can run over and see if everything's alright. Also, monthly meetings with your templar-buddy! That's right. Mages will be assigned a templar buddy and they can hang out at either the barricade or the tower.
Maybe once a mage is strong enough to resist demons but also trustworthy, he/she can take a trip to Starkhaven or Kirkwall. Of course, the mage would not wear robes/bring a staff because if he's openly a mage that might cause some trouble amongst the community. AND for the first few visits, the mage would be followed by templars that are not obviously templars and not obviously following the mage. Maybe they start going with their templar buddy?
Anyway, that's my solution. Opinions/comments and what's yours? Danthehumanmage (talk) 15:53, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
I'd go live on an island and let the world burn. ----Isolationistmagi 16:56, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
- But you'd be horribly lonely. And bored :D -Algol- (talk) 16:57, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
- Don't worry, I think she'd sit on the beach and collect seashells. RShepard227 (talk) 20:49, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
- I hope she really gets to do it and doesn't sacrifice herself to cure some DA race from a Blight or something O_o -Algol- (talk) 21:42, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
- Sniff. Had to be her. Someone else might have gotten it wrong. :'( RShepard227 (talk) 03:01, January 23, 2013 (UTC)
- I hope she really gets to do it and doesn't sacrifice herself to cure some DA race from a Blight or something O_o -Algol- (talk) 21:42, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
- Don't worry, I think she'd sit on the beach and collect seashells. RShepard227 (talk) 20:49, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
I'd rather see what solution Bioware comes up with in DA3. Until then it's all a moot point, as are other countless threads with arguing about who's right and who's wrong. -Algol- (talk) 16:57, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
The "boarding school solution" that's shown up here in some form or another dozens of times: turn the Circle into a boarding school, allow visits from family, allow Harrowed mages to join the Templar Order or their local armies and have leave to visit friends and family. Now a couple of my ideas, not sure if they've shown up before: The Formari get to work developing a blood magic test, similar to drug tests or gunshot detection kits, and when it's ready and can detect blood magic use within the past 30 days, every leave mage has to get the test done at random every month. If they fail, back to the Circle for evaluation. Second, mages can get their own jobs suited to their skills and enroll in universities (I know they exist). Third, the secrets of magic nullification are made public. Men do not fear the sword because they have armor, and with the knowledge of templar talents they need not fear magic either. However, the Chantry's gonna have to lead the effort or go away for any of this to work. RShepard227 (talk) 21:01, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
- In DA:Redemption qunari have collars, which completelly blocks saarebas' magic, Chantry could develop this to make mages not use their powers, when there is no war or no need to use magic. Swords and bows can be removed but not magic, all those 3 are weapon types, carrying weapon in city isn't permited for civillains. Warriors and rogues can be disarmed, but mages must be blocked instead of disarmed, if we want people carry no weapon. People will always be afraid of magic, when they have no resources to defend from it, most of them have no armor. Even dwarves can be afraid of magic, Dwyn was terryfied when mage warden threated him, dwarves are highly resistant, but not completelly immune on magic. My point is to make mages closer to non-mages is to construct something like this collar and put it on them, when their magic is temporary not needed like warriors remove their swords, when they aren't needed. 78.8.10.232 (talk) 21:33, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
- How would you like to live your life in a collar? Good doggie! XD -Algol- (talk) 21:44, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
- No weapons in cities? Tell that to the Grey Wardens, Champion, and the various rogues and mercs literally walking down the streets. And there's plenty of templar armor with spell resistance lying around, just have the Tranquil do that to every piece of cloth. After this, if they still need to be collared like mabari, at least make them fancy and not weigh 150 pounds. RShepard227 (talk) 03:09, January 23, 2013 (UTC)
- You're ignorant, civillians aren't allowed to carry weapon in cities. Warden acted a merc, Hawke was a merc, mercs and templars aren't civilians, members of Order of gray wardens aren't civilians either. None of my character is a mage and he won't wear a magical jewlery. Besides the collar could be miniaturised and made into a bracelet, which can be removed only by mage's supervisor.62.87.147.115 (talk) 09:24, January 23, 2013 (UTC)
- The only instance I can remember of civilians not being allowed to carry weapons was in the Denerim Alienage after the riots in DA:O. And even then it was only the elves who were so restricted. The only people I've seen not carrying a weapon were some nobles(bodyguards, so don't need them) and most peasants(can't afford them). Also mercenaries, not being tied to an overarching administration, are technically civilians. CLuhrsen (talk) 00:26, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- You're ignorant, civillians aren't allowed to carry weapon in cities. Warden acted a merc, Hawke was a merc, mercs and templars aren't civilians, members of Order of gray wardens aren't civilians either. None of my character is a mage and he won't wear a magical jewlery. Besides the collar could be miniaturised and made into a bracelet, which can be removed only by mage's supervisor.62.87.147.115 (talk) 09:24, January 23, 2013 (UTC)
Simple really. I would make the whole world like Tevinter HaHaHa--TheReaperofInsanity (talk) 21:47, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
- You know, I would have supported the Imperium wholeheartedly, if not for slavery and conflicts with elves. Now slavery can be abolished (some archons already tried), amends to the elves can be made (give'em some land that used to be Orlais), so... I like the way you think. -Algol- (talk) 21:55, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
Get the mages to actually fight demons rather than just being tempted by them. Kick the demons' arses so that there is so little of them that the risk of possesion is slight to none. Or have the templars enter the Fade to destroy the demons. Either way, destroy the demons. Henio0 (talk) 21:58, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
- No demons = no fun. Algol disapproves :( -Algol- (talk) 22:10, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
- Forgot this: (-5) RShepard227 (talk) 03:09, January 23, 2013 (UTC)
- Ignore Algol's disapprovement, he's not serious and doesn't treat other seriously. Fans of demons are deviants and they are incredivbly few, their opinion is meaningless.62.87.147.115 (talk) 09:24, January 23, 2013 (UTC)
- Forgot this: (-5) RShepard227 (talk) 03:09, January 23, 2013 (UTC)
The problem has causes on both ends, neither side is innocent. The Templars need to stop playing big brother, or at least loosen their grip a little and stop making mages tranquil. The mages, on the other hand, need to stop playing the victim card and finally admit to the fact that not every single mage is just an innocent victim, and they need to form their own force for dealing with rogue and evil mages.--Legionwrex (talk) 22:09, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
- We already have Big Brother in real world, everywhere is a security camera.62.87.147.115 (talk) 09:24, January 23, 2013 (UTC)
I would do absolutely nothing to the mages- I will simply let the world proceed. The way I see it, either the mages will all become abominations and then be slain (Which can be done, Hawke did it and we all know there was nothing special about Hawke) or they will self-govern one another or they will be fine simply learning to master their gifts by themselves. Now this brings us to another question: "What if the mages try to control everyone and rule us?" Well, I see two approaches to this, 1) Mages aren't overly powerful and can be slain like normal human beings that they are. 2) Mages ARE powerful in which case they should be the leaders, that was the whole point of worshiping Gods, because they were powerful and could do things regular people couldn't. The argument about the mages controlling too much is not justifiable under scenario #2 and impossible under scenario #1. That's just my opinion though, and I appear to think differently than most people. As for the Templars, I say let them be their own organization training for fighting mages, should a mage go rogue and bad then they are dispatched to kill. Friendlysociopath (talk) 18:54, January 23, 2013 (UTC)
Well, according to scenario #2, should the amazing atheletes in the Olympics (that don't use steroids or performance enhancing drugs) be our leaders? The do things normal humans beings cannot. Yes, they have to train but so do powerful mages. Danthehumanmage (talk) 20:46, January 23, 2013 (UTC)
The "mage problem" is that people are seeing them as mages above all else. There are dangerous and tyranical people that ARN'T mages, so why make a big deal when a mage does this? The Grey Wardens are very skilled and powerful, but people don't attempt to put all of them in cages.--R0B45 (talk) 17:33, January 24, 2013 (UTC)
- Its not about being tyranical or not, its about mages need no resources to cause mass destruction, only a single thought. Everybody is afraid of those, who is more powerful and doesn't trust them, no matter if its a mage or a warrior. Tyrannical rulers have armies and spies, that's why they are difficult to overthorw. There are people, who don't want Gray Wardens in their countries, king Arland exiled them and Bann Esmerelle made a consipracy against them. Warden are supported by royal taxes, how else do you think they get money for food? Some kings think they are freeloaders and because blights happen really rare, they aren't needed.78.8.100.248 (talk) 17:48, January 24, 2013 (UTC)
Templars have families, as we've seen. Mages should use that the their advantage. For every mage killed by the Templars, the mages should find and slaughter the family of a random Templar. Their parents, siblings, nieces and nephews, cousins, anyone with a blood relation to a Templar should be fair game. That'll make at least some of the Templars think twice about what they are doing, as well as discouraging anyone else from joining them. Continue this until the Templars surrender, or are wiped out. Some might say it's wrong. Maybe, but mages are taken from their families, never allowed to see them. Maybe it's time the mages gave the Templars a taste of their own medicine. 98.181.26.51 (talk) 07:08, January 25, 2013 (UTC)
- It's nothing but pouring salt on the wound, it will only make situation worse. Endless cycle of revange. By your logic Hawke should be killed as sibling of templar Carver and Macha as Keran's sister and Rhys as a son of a templar. Have you ever seen a relative of a mage visit in Circle? No, even Hawke doesn't do this even if can. Parents can't rise their children with magic powers, because they can't deal with their powers. Bethany was never and abomination because her dad was a mage and took care of her, but Connor was hidden and never had a relative, who could thought him how to use magic, he caused only a mess. Mages without overseer will cause only chaos and children are teh cruelest creatures on the world, with magic they could only pull lethal pranks. Even in Tevinter are schools for mages, even there they aren't free. Mages aren't common humans, they are special humans and they need special treatment, special schools for special children. If teachers are too abusive, they simply have to be replaced by kinder ones. Cycle of revange leads sides of conflict to anihilation of each other. Killing relatives and separating from them are 2 different things.156.17.71.249 (talk) 13:02, January 25, 2013 (UTC)
- Ferelden makes a big deal about how slavery is illegal in their country, yet that's exactly what the mages are. Slaves. You can sugarcoat it or attempt to justify it all you want, but 'submit to being controlled by the Chantry or die', being hunted down and recaptured or killed if you try to escape, that is slavery, in all but name. And slaves have a right, a moral responsibility, to do whatever it takes to gain their freedom. You say that slaughtering a Templar's family would just be revenge. So what? A little vengeance can be good for the soul. And the Templars and Chantry have been guilty of far worse over the years, not the least of which, forcing countless mages to become Tranquils, making them less than human. If the mages are serious about gaining their freedom, then the kid gloves come off. The Templars are their enemy, and anyone who supports them or collaborates with them should be a fair target, just as those who collaborate with an occupying army are legitimate targets in the real world. 98.181.26.51 (talk) 19:27, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
- By definition, a slave is someone that is legal property of another and forced to work for them. The mages of the Circle are not legal property, nor do they do any forced labour for them. If you are a soldier in the army and you attempt to desert, they will hunt you down. I wouldn't call soldiers slaves either. Templars are made addicted to lyrium in order to ensure the Chantry's control over them and to enforce them to obey. Who really has it worse. --R0B45 (talk) 19:45, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
- No, not all slavery is chattel slavery. Many types of slavery throughout history have been non-chattel. They are still slavery. Serfdom was a form of slavery (where the people were not owned, but they were bound to work a piece of land owned by someone else, and not allowed to leave. The Mages are in much the same boat. They slaves to the Chantry. If you are a mage, you MUST be under the Chantry's authority. You are hunted down and killed if you try to escape. How is that not slavery? Saddam Hussein used torture. The US used 'enhanced interogation techniques'. Changing the language you use, trying to couch something in comfortable terms to soothe your own conscience, doesn't negate what it actually is. The fact is, to be a mage is to have your freedoms restricted, your right to self-determination taken away from you by someone else through no actions of your own. That is slavery, at it's core. Calling it something else does not change that fact. As to the Templars, yes they are addicted to Lyrium so the Chantry can control them. However, they CHOSE to become a Templar, CHOSE to join a group who's goal was the oppression of mages. Mages did not CHOOSE to be mages. "I was only following orders" was not a valid defense at Nuremberg, and it isn't here. 98.181.26.51 (talk) 22:16, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
- Templar's duty isn't to be abusive just like in schools teachers don't have to be abusive, their goal is to control mages. People, who join the templars simply seek job and hear imagined stories about them, they don't know about lyrium control just like those, who hear stories about the grey wardens don't know about joining and calling. I saw no mage, who tried to act non mage, when was free. If you want to be treated normal, then behave normal. They don't resign from magic because they are too proud and feel better than non mages because of it. In armies softies aren't needed, there are needed strong and ruthless, because they are effective and don't fear. If templars are abusive, that's because they were rised by abusive parents or were bullies during their childhood, their supervisors don't command them to bully mages, they command them to look after them. Magic is alien to society, that's why people don't trust mages, they are not common, they are special and fear from magic will always be and mages don't do anything to show they aren't to be afraid.
- No, not all slavery is chattel slavery. Many types of slavery throughout history have been non-chattel. They are still slavery. Serfdom was a form of slavery (where the people were not owned, but they were bound to work a piece of land owned by someone else, and not allowed to leave. The Mages are in much the same boat. They slaves to the Chantry. If you are a mage, you MUST be under the Chantry's authority. You are hunted down and killed if you try to escape. How is that not slavery? Saddam Hussein used torture. The US used 'enhanced interogation techniques'. Changing the language you use, trying to couch something in comfortable terms to soothe your own conscience, doesn't negate what it actually is. The fact is, to be a mage is to have your freedoms restricted, your right to self-determination taken away from you by someone else through no actions of your own. That is slavery, at it's core. Calling it something else does not change that fact. As to the Templars, yes they are addicted to Lyrium so the Chantry can control them. However, they CHOSE to become a Templar, CHOSE to join a group who's goal was the oppression of mages. Mages did not CHOOSE to be mages. "I was only following orders" was not a valid defense at Nuremberg, and it isn't here. 98.181.26.51 (talk) 22:16, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
- By definition, a slave is someone that is legal property of another and forced to work for them. The mages of the Circle are not legal property, nor do they do any forced labour for them. If you are a soldier in the army and you attempt to desert, they will hunt you down. I wouldn't call soldiers slaves either. Templars are made addicted to lyrium in order to ensure the Chantry's control over them and to enforce them to obey. Who really has it worse. --R0B45 (talk) 19:45, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
- Ferelden makes a big deal about how slavery is illegal in their country, yet that's exactly what the mages are. Slaves. You can sugarcoat it or attempt to justify it all you want, but 'submit to being controlled by the Chantry or die', being hunted down and recaptured or killed if you try to escape, that is slavery, in all but name. And slaves have a right, a moral responsibility, to do whatever it takes to gain their freedom. You say that slaughtering a Templar's family would just be revenge. So what? A little vengeance can be good for the soul. And the Templars and Chantry have been guilty of far worse over the years, not the least of which, forcing countless mages to become Tranquils, making them less than human. If the mages are serious about gaining their freedom, then the kid gloves come off. The Templars are their enemy, and anyone who supports them or collaborates with them should be a fair target, just as those who collaborate with an occupying army are legitimate targets in the real world. 98.181.26.51 (talk) 19:27, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
78.8.99.181 (talk) 23:48, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
- Killing everyone, who disagrees with you or doesn't share your view is your way of thinking, Hitler, Stalin and other dictators also thought that way. Even if mages were free, they wouldn't stand above law. If killing isn't a big deal for you, then you don't suit society, nobody wants killers or sociopaths around. If everyone thought like you the world would be lifeless. Pouring salt to wounds solves nothing, only causes more trouble and violance breeds more violance. 78.8.99.181 (talk) 20:06, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
- I am SO glad you brought up Hitler, so I didn't have to and risk invoking Godwin's law. In Nazi-occupied Europe, the resistance groups, such as that in Vichy France, regularly targeted not just the Nazi officials themselves, but those who supported them. In their view, being a collaborator was just as bad, and consequently they were legitimate targets. And that included the families of the Nazi occupiers themselves. They had a hand in the oppression of the local population, and thus were not off-limits. There is no difference between the French Resistance killing Nazi collaborators and what I propose. Supporting an oppressive system makes you an accomplice to the actions committed in support of that system, and therefor a valid target. 98.181.26.51 (talk) 22:16, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
- @98.181.26.51 Dude being cruel to some innocent person just because they are loosely associated to a templar is sick and cruel. Trying to inflict pain on a templar's loved one isn't going to break that templar's resolve, it's just getting a kick out of hurting someone because you can. If a mage were to do that, it'd be just as cruel as a templar doing it to an innocent mage. Should mages start raping a templar's daughter because her mom or dad is a templar? Maybe that templar is a decent guy. Wtf is wrong with people? Templars, mages,they're all humans. Two wrongs don't make a right and becoming a monster just because you are fighting a monstrous notion isn't right. Not if it isn't necessary.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 14:31, March 1, 2014 (UTC))
- I am SO glad you brought up Hitler, so I didn't have to and risk invoking Godwin's law. In Nazi-occupied Europe, the resistance groups, such as that in Vichy France, regularly targeted not just the Nazi officials themselves, but those who supported them. In their view, being a collaborator was just as bad, and consequently they were legitimate targets. And that included the families of the Nazi occupiers themselves. They had a hand in the oppression of the local population, and thus were not off-limits. There is no difference between the French Resistance killing Nazi collaborators and what I propose. Supporting an oppressive system makes you an accomplice to the actions committed in support of that system, and therefor a valid target. 98.181.26.51 (talk) 22:16, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
- Killing everyone, who disagrees with you or doesn't share your view is your way of thinking, Hitler, Stalin and other dictators also thought that way. Even if mages were free, they wouldn't stand above law. If killing isn't a big deal for you, then you don't suit society, nobody wants killers or sociopaths around. If everyone thought like you the world would be lifeless. Pouring salt to wounds solves nothing, only causes more trouble and violance breeds more violance. 78.8.99.181 (talk) 20:06, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
Leandra visits Bethany in the circle. And that's in Kirkwall, the most strictest place on earth for circles. So yeah I assume parents can visit if they want. Danthehumanmage (talk) 03:08, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
- That seems to be one those "plot device exceptions" that is used to drive a narrative. It serves the storyline of DA2 to give an insight into what life is like for a Mage in the Gallows; having Leandra go visit Bethany and then report back to Hawke on how she is doing allows the player to relate to the conditions the magi live under and to tie the goings on there with the broader plot.
- Regarding the circumstances of mages more generally, given the danger (real or perceived) that mages are alleged to pose to the rest of society, it stands to reason that they would be barred from interacting with anyone from outside on any kind of regular basis. The whole purpose of the Circle is to segregate mages from everyone else. Allowing visitors would seem to run contrary to this goal and it's not like the Chantry gives a damn about the welfare of the mages in the first place. What we do irrefutably know is that mages are taken the circle as children, torn (often violently) from their families, and carted away to be incarcerated for their entire lives simply for being born the way they are. Irrespective of whether visitors are allowed, the Circle is a prison for people who have committed no crime, and that is why it is wrong.--Darkly Tranquil (talk) 07:50, February 16, 2013 (UTC)
- Circle is as much prison as a boarding school. Parents can't deal with children, who are mages, that's why they need to be trained. Children are the cruelest creatures of the world, they have also little knowladge and can cause a great catastrophy intentionally or not. When people get older they are less capable of being trained. If teachers or school guards are abusive, it doesn't mean whole school chould be destroyed, just the teachers and school guards should be replaced. You hear propagande of fanatics like Anders, do you have not your own opinion? I don't listen to anyone, I have my own thoughts, that's why I don't get manipulated and don't follow anyone. People, who are mentally ill also live in such "prisons" because they are mentally ill. Mentally ill people on loose cause havoc. Freedom requires responsibility and mages without limits you desire will cast destructive spells on those, who pissed them off and nobody will stop them. Nobody can stand above the law even mages. Even in Tevinter mages aren't free, they all go to circle of Minrathus and compete with each other, because there is a rule "eat or be eaten". Only high ranking magisters can do whatever they want. People are not equal, there are always smarter and dumber, stronger and weaker, less and more creative, if you think different;y, then you're wrong. People are not equal that's undeniable like fact everyone will die one day.78.8.135.82 (talk) 08:46, February 16, 2013 (UTC)
- I honestly don't even know why I bother trying to debunk your hysterical nonsense. The fact that you accuse others of not thinking and blindly swallowing propaganda is the most exquisite irony. Nonetheless, I shall endeavour to address the issues you have raised.
- 1.Comparison between the Circle and boarding school: Children are generally sent to a boarding school BY their parents, rather than being removed to one by force. While you might be able to propose an argument that this is the equivalent of the state seizing a child from unfit parents, the difference here is that there is no mechanism of appeal or review, and no chance for parent to ever reclaim their child; they're simply gone for good. When children graduate from boarding school, they are permitted to leave and begin lives of their own as free citizens; Circle mages never 'graduate', they are kept 'at school' for their entire lives. Children who misbehave or fail at their studies are not typically murdered or lobotomized for the convenience of their teachers/guards in a boarding school (although some exceptions may apply). The only way a Circle can be regarded as in any way comparable to a boarding school is that education takes place there. By the same token, that is also true of prisons. Nothing you have said goes any way to disprove the proposition that the Circle is a prison for people who have committed no crime.
- 2. Abusive teachers/guards: The abusive guards and teachers will never be removed from their positions so long as their actions are either explicitly or implicitly sanctioned by the organization that runs the institution. As long as the Chantry runs the Circle, and regards the mages as lesser (non) people, they will be victimized. Wherever there is power without accountability and recourse to appeal, there will inevitably be abuse; one need only look at the abuses perpetrated in Catholic boarding schools and orphanages in Ireland and Australia to see clear evidence of this. Until the power dynamic between the mages and the Chantry is rebalanced so that mages can have some form of redress against mistreatment and Templars are held accountable for their actions, the mages remain slaves to the whims of their gaolers. That will never occur while the Chantry runs things.
- 3. The mentally Ill: If I understand you correctly, you seem to be attempting to draw some sort of parallel between the need to preventatively incarcerate psychiatric patients and the need to lock up mages on the basis of both posing a potential threat, in order to prove some kind of real world precedent for the practice? If this is the case, I think you are woefully misinformed about mental illness. The fact is that the vast majority of the mentally ill are able to function within broader society without significant intervention from agencies of government. Only the most severe cases of mental illness require hospitalization, and in most of those cases, such hospitalization is temporary; an infinitesimally small number of individuals require long term institutionalization. Even if I were willing to countenance the idea that mages and the mentally ill were in some way comparable (which I am not), all you would have proved is that the small percentage of particularly unstable mages at serious risk of possession should be considered for incarceration. As it stands, any comparative relationship between the two is extremely tenuous, and really adds nothing to your argument.
- 4. Freedom and responsibility: Once again, you attempt to assert the paranoid nonsense propagated by the Chantry that if all mages are not locked up, they will throw spells around at anyone who annoys them, become abominations, do blood magic, and take over the world. This is a classic false dichotomy that intentionally disallows all other options because it suits the narrow scope of your argument but allows no room for other alternative outcomes to be considered. According to your (fallacious) argument, the only possible outcomes for dealing with mages are Circle or Tevinter. Implicit in your assertion is the proposition that mages are incapable or controlling themselves and will automatically run amok if allowed any freedom and that this justifies their imprisonment. Unfortunately, this argument simply does not hold water; Wynne, Irving, and Morrigan are all examples of mages who have total control over their power and great self-discipline. They prove that it is possible for mages to control their power and to use them responsibly, and exposes your (and the Chantry's) universalist assertions about the inherent dangers of all mages false. To explain my point by way of a real world example; do people who own firearms simply shoot at anyone they feel like? Some do, but most don't because they don't need to or want to and because there are consequences if they do. The reason for this is that people are rational actors (for the most part) who weigh up the pros and cons of different courses of action before deciding what to do in any given situation. There is no logical reason why mages should be any different to anyone else. Thus, if a person who owns a gun can resist the urge to use it on someone who annoys him, why then should a Mage not be able to likewise refrain from using magic? Presumably the Mage and the gun own owner will undertake a similar deductive path of decision making in which the costs and benefits of the proposed action are weighed and act accordingly. Irrespective of whether they have magic or not, each person decides whether or not they are going to obey the law or break it. If they break the law, they are punished for the crimes they commit. I have never advocates that mages should be above the law, only that they be held to the same standards as everyone else. I guess you aren't familiar with the concept of all men being equal before the law?
- As I have said previously, in spite of your attempts to paint me as some sort of anarchist Anders-fanboy, I'm not against the Circle as a place of education; I even think that Mage children do need to be sent there to learn to control their powers (but they should be allowed to have contact with their families). I also think that there need to be Templars to deal with mages that do go out of control, but in a more generalized 'policing' type role and with far better accountability. What I disagree with is the placing of mages completely at the mercy of an organization that abhors them (the Chantry), and which offers them no opportunity to improve their lot in life through their own merits. As I see it, the collective punishment of an entire group of people on the basis of something they might do at some unspecified future time as the result of an inborn genetic trait is fundamentally wrong. While it might be appealing to suggest that sacrificing the liberty of mages for the safety of everyone else is a good idea, I would direct you to the words of Benjamin Franklin, who said, "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."--Darkly Tranquil (talk) 13:04, February 16, 2013 (UTC)
- Circle is as much prison as a boarding school. Parents can't deal with children, who are mages, that's why they need to be trained. Children are the cruelest creatures of the world, they have also little knowladge and can cause a great catastrophy intentionally or not. When people get older they are less capable of being trained. If teachers or school guards are abusive, it doesn't mean whole school chould be destroyed, just the teachers and school guards should be replaced. You hear propagande of fanatics like Anders, do you have not your own opinion? I don't listen to anyone, I have my own thoughts, that's why I don't get manipulated and don't follow anyone. People, who are mentally ill also live in such "prisons" because they are mentally ill. Mentally ill people on loose cause havoc. Freedom requires responsibility and mages without limits you desire will cast destructive spells on those, who pissed them off and nobody will stop them. Nobody can stand above the law even mages. Even in Tevinter mages aren't free, they all go to circle of Minrathus and compete with each other, because there is a rule "eat or be eaten". Only high ranking magisters can do whatever they want. People are not equal, there are always smarter and dumber, stronger and weaker, less and more creative, if you think different;y, then you're wrong. People are not equal that's undeniable like fact everyone will die one day.78.8.135.82 (talk) 08:46, February 16, 2013 (UTC)
Honestly, I think the only way for peace to occur between mages and templars is if the Qunari send a huge invasion force over from Par Vollen and invade the rest of Thedas. Qunari (or the Kossith in particular) are supposedly vulnerable to magic - probably the reason why they are so harsh to the Sarebaas amongst their own kind. The only way for the nations of Thedas to defeat the Qunari horde would be to enlist the mages in the fight, but since the Circles have rebelled there is little chance of this. It would mean an uneasy alliance: if the mages fight for Thedas against the Qunari, they get their freedom afterwards, albeit in isolated communities perhaps (like what the Isolationists want). Maybe the mages won't trust whoever brokers the alliance, but wouldn't this be a perfect quest for the new Inquisitor protagonist in Dragon Age 3 to undertake? --90.200.10.210 (talk) 20:16, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
- In ME3 peace between quarian and geth was possible to achieve, but required a lot of effort, so I do hope there is an option for peace between mages and templars. I'm afraid fanatical assholes will again scold and insult those, who don't share their views. I don't care if it's hard, I don't care others don't want it, I want to enforce peace in DA3 like in ME3.78.8.3.131 (talk) 21:04, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
I would bring back the circle of magi, I think that really worked best. But the Templars would be kept in check as well, since they have now "disconnected" from the chantry they are now as dangerous as mages IMO. The seekers would replace the Templars really, watching both mages and Templars making sure neither gets to zealous. If not that I would look toward the grey wardens, they have had blood mages and apostates in their ranks since the beginning and have kept them in check. Heck they have even worked wonders with them around. They may be able aid the chantry in their attempts to control Mage-Templar relations. It would be breaking their nuetrality though.Manoft93 (talk) 21:59, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
- The Wardens didn't exactly do a bang-up job of keeping Anders in line. One would have thought they might frown on desertion, what with the whole "ours is the duty that cannot be forsworn" and make some effort to deal with said deserter. The Anders case seems to suggest otherwise. In any case, I very much doubt the Wardens would want any part of dealing with mages or the Chantry; They have far too many skeletons in their closet to be willing to expose themselves to such scrutiny.--Darkly Tranquil (talk) 07:50, February 16, 2013 (UTC)
@Darkly Tranquil by reffering to Ben Franklin you show you buy what other people say, I don't listen to anyone, my philosophy isn't based on any philosophy of someone else. Irving, Wynne and Morrigan were trained, they didn't learn on their own. Most of people are weak minded idiots, that's why politicians rule, because they know how to manipulate people. Mages are as dangerous as armed people, so don't say telling that mages are dangerous is false. Only differnece is firearms can be disarmed, magic cannot. Mages cannot remove magic like poeple their weapons and mages need no resources to destroy people, who piss them off. Most of people have no patience and aren't resposible, mages or not. You think mages want to be treated like commoners? They don't, they think magic makes them superior to non mages just like we think our inteligence makes us superior to animals. Religion doesn't make people less or more abusive, in Eastern Europe during the cold war children in orphanages were also abused. I didn't try to paint you as Anders fanatic, I saw you like this because I misinterptetation. There are tons of logical points mages cannot be seen like other, people are different and aren't equal and will never be, only dead are equal and the same. True paranoia is seeing all people as equal, they all have different skill, talents and personalities. My possition in job was based on my skills, I don't have skills to manage bigger group than I already do and I acknowaldged my place.78.8.135.82 (talk) 14:02, February 16, 2013 (UTC)
Mages can be disarmed quite effectively; Templars are trained specifically for that purpose. Removing a mage's mana is tantamount to knocking the arrow out of an archers hand, knocking a rogues weapon from his hand, or stripping the shield from a tank's hand; both simply have to reach for another/recover theirs just as the mage would simply need to regain his strength (naturally or artificially).
The problem with the Chantry's position that 'Magic is meant to serve man, not rule over him' and the implimentation of 'Lock them away and rape them by over zealous security guards' (there were multiple references to sexual assaults other than just Ander's) is that there is no method for Mage's to 'serve man'. The Warden's did a better job of fitting both of those criteria (Having Mage's use those powers to save man from the Blight, even with Blood Magic, and seal away foes to powerful).
Personally I find anyone with the innate ability to become invisible at the sight of danger/capture (*cough*rogue*cough*) must be using some sort of arcane abilities, and should be hunted down and raped, err I mean 'placed' in the Circle as well for everyone's safety. While we're at it, Those warriors that can cause minature Earth quake's with thier fists.... We need to setup a Physically resistance bunch of guards to root out those that practice that mysterious art for evil purposes. Magic is a tool, just as a sword/knife/arrow/drunk dwarf; they can be used for evil and for good depending on person wielding it.
Not sure why there isn't a magic means of detection demon possession. You'd think that would be one of the first things they'd come up with when they decided not to go on an inquisition and exterminate all mages anyways... Shouldn't the First Enchanter just buff up his Coersion skill and make them admit it at least? :p
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My sollution is simple destroy fanatical racist chantry ,free mages (that not mean give them rule like tevinter because as we know tevinter is only corrupt country in thedas... that was sarcasm) and make templars police separate them from this shity religon and god (we all know that meaker is a pri***) and also don't give them power to rule others life.Teach new templars morality not fanaticism and racism and will be good.Minsc and BOO
- What a short sighted a biased view. You seem to ignore mages are also to blame. Fiona,
Eee yes mages want only freedom of course there always will be peoples who want power chantry like accuse tevinter that magic is blame but look at orlais Knights can do what they like without consequences and look what chantry do exactly that same what tevinter they can rape or turn mages into zombi.Im sure if you were prison in tower and be worm for guys in armor you will stay and say please kill me holy warrior i have no right to be free and treat like human... i don't like tevinter but i have no illusion that chantry is better in any way.—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
Solution of Isolationist fretility seemed the most reasonable to me, but their opinion no longer matters in that idiotic war. In this binary world of DAI I won't support mages, I won't support cause of person I hate and I killed already. I won't slaughter majority of planet,who has no magic, so the minority who has magic could survive. I don't want to act like other players, because they act so. There is nothing, that will change my mind. Mage supporters need truely magic to change my mind, because no argument has power to do so. FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 20:38, February 28, 2014 (UTC)
- This sounds an awful lot like flamebaiting but I'll tackle it reasonably, to be clear here, are you saying you wouldn't support innocent mages who want nothing more then freedom, who weren't involved with kirkwall, or Fiona's revolt, who were pulled into the thick of things and forced to fight in order to survive? all because you don't like Anders, who in your game you already killed? that's rather close-minded. and just a word of advise, going to an OPEN forum where people discuss things, stating that nothing will change your mind negates the very point of coming to an open forum and discuss your point of view. int he future if this hasnt been explained to you, the idea is to come in with one frame of mind and hear others people's views and opinions, then walk away from the discussion with a different outlook. If all you bring to the discussion is a close minded view, that is really intendned to just start flame wars, I'd kindly request you just don't post at all to avoid conflicts that lead to innocent members of the community to get banned Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 21:40, February 28, 2014 (UTC)
- Morrigan had nothing in common with Anders or Fiona and she isn't innocent, she wants her scion to enlsave Thedas. Why would I support mages? I have nothing in common with them, I don't care about them. Do you really think I care about what anyone wants? Cause of others means nothing to me. You say I have to support them and I say I do not have to do anything. I don't care what people like you think about it. People like you made me think this way, I got annoyed by their propaganda, I've got enough of it. I am not manipulated by Anders' sick propaganda. I am a side effect of your coulages' actions. If you change my mind, you'll be a miracle maker and it won't happen. No matter what I won't support mages and I;ll always reject world from Anders' vison.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 22:15, February 28, 2014 (UTC)
- So, according to your logic, if someone was beating you to death, I should just walk right on by because I "have nothing in common" with you? That way of thinking leads to many of our world's great atrocities. A wise man once said, "First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me." By not speaking out when atrocities are committed a person or a group of people, you are an accessory to that crime. To return to my earlier analogy, if I were to stand by and do nothing as someone beat you to death, I would be just as guilty of murder as the murderer, as an accessory to the crime. I hate to go to a Nazi analogy, but by not acting out against the persecution of mages, you are following in the footsteps of a large portion of the German people in the 30's and 40's. A vast majority of Germans were not Nazis, but, by not standing up for those persecuted by the Nazi Party, they were complicit in the crimes of the Nazis. --TheFereldenMagister (talk) 23:15, February 28, 2014 (UTC)
- I'd like to thank TheFereldenMagister for that very quote as it also came to my mind as well. I wont forget the first time I had heard it, in reference to the community center being placed "too close" to 9/11 ground Zero. to bring it back to Fantasy here I'd like to Quote Robb Stark; "Lord Umber, this one was only the watcher. Hang him last, so he may watch the others die." The one who watches is just as guilty. ALSO what does Morrigan have to do with anything? She has her own vendetta against Flemeth, and is not involved with the Mage templar war, In fact Drell, you have more in common with her then you might think. I'm reminded she once tried to council my Warden into killing all the mages because "their masters" decided that was what to do. If you really dont care about what others think then why did you come here to voice the opinion? I'm not asking you to support mages, in fact I htink you'd be the worst person to have on their side. What I'm saying is, your propaganda of saying the mages should die is just as ignorant as people who say all the templars should die. Yet you cant even bring yourself to see it that way because you're so wrapped up in being "against the mages". The whole point of this forum as i stated is to walk away with other opinions, I've had plenty of occasions where I personally logged off here and started up Dragon Age to make some game changing decisions because my opinions and feels had changed on the matter. I'd like to think I've been here long enough to have had the same effect on at least 1 other as well. That's how we grow and thrive. It helps no one to just state you hate mages and that absolutely nothing will change your mind. Your hate-filled comments have only lead to people like myself trying to reason with you, to meet in some middle ground, and you run away claiming offense to the admins getting good members of this community banned. I will no doubt suffer some similar fate for this post. so to the rest of you, If you don't hear from me for a while you know why. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 00:00, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
It's useless Warden Mage: Ferris. Drell is very close-minded to listen to you. And people like him will give you a straight answer, he see the world black and white that when person makes something evil he will say that man is evil even he didn't know the reason why he did it.Markpol.salazar (talk) 07:14, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- And what about the one, who calls me nazi, simply because I refuse to support mages as he does? For them world is binary - with mages or against them. Open mind like dealing with enemy is nothing but treason.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 07:18, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- Because there is no middle ground in this just like the Orzammar Succession Crisis.Markpol.salazar
Binary choices, Binary choices, you're becoming Meredith who see that every mages needs to die because they wanted freedomMarkpol.salazar
- We don't speak about Orzammar succession crisis, but about mages, one latter has nothing in common with the former. Mages don't want freedom and live among non-mages, they want to dominate non-mages. They are no normal beings, freedom gives them chance to supress us and dominate, I don't want lat that happen. I am a stubborn mage slayer without warnings of templars or qunari, I got bored of seeing the same propaganda quotes liek freedom for mages or death to templars. I am a side effect of their propaganda, it worked opposite on me. DAI is binary, journalists made it clear that you are with one side or another and there is no middle ground and most players even don't want it, I wasn't among them until I was informed that you only support one side or another. That's what most of mages really think "We are masters of the elements. We call forth the spirits themselves. We were never meant to walk among mortal men. We were meant to command them. "FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 07:43, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
The reason put the Orzammar Succession is because the choice you do is a binary choice and the is no middleground on it. Just I am saying your plain black and white morality is not belong to Dragon Age. You see people like Jowan evil because he is using blood magic and he poisoned Arl Eamon. And you will say that even he save his son through the use of lyrium he is still evil to you. And his reason he did is because Loghain promise that the mages like him will have their freedom by convincing the chantry if he kill the Arl. Also, Merril she resort to blood magic is because she see it as the only option to fix an Eluvian a piece of their lost culture. Is she evil to use blood magic, even her clan exiled her because of it.Markpol.salazar
- You know nothing about me, so it's better to not talk. All you say is nothing but goofy speculations.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 08:29, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- It seems we the same feeling after all. We just not talk about it. You are dodging my questions anywayMarkpol.salazar
I'd like to change the Circle system. I think that the Chantry, templars, and the Circle could be a great way to regulate magic but it's too caught up on superstitious traditions, politics, and paranoia to change. The Circle being an educated place to train mages is a great thing. Templars protecting the normals from magical abuses is a great thing. Templars should not be the jailors and the Circle should not be a prison however. The first thing I want to do is improve the mages chances of fighting off demons. There are two types of mages: someone like Hawke who is naturally adept at magic and someone like Emile de Launcet who can probably barely light a candle. Mages need to research on ways to improve incompetents like Emile and his chances to pass the Harrowing. I figure, if demons can make even the weakest of mages terrible weapons of destruction against templars, can benign spirits merge with weak mages to make them powerful enough to fend off demons?
Secondly, there's the prospect of letting mages integrate with regular society. How would the world govern them? I think that once they passed their Harrowing, they have proven to the world that they are in no danger of becoming possessed and should be allowed to leave the Circle Tower. What if the mage uses blood magic or abuse magic? How do we find the guilty among innocent? I believe a better method is if we use "diviniters"- mages specializing in predicting the future- to weed out the guilty and the innocent. Then sick the templars on the rogue maleficarum and serve them justice. There, a way to get justice, true justice; using magic to solve magic crimes. Isn't that the whole point of magic? To do what is impossible in real life.
Now to address some myths. Should mages be feared? No, they bleed and die by the knife like any other human. An experienced rogue with some hallucinogens can easily assassinate a mage. Their threat of tyranny is no more real than that of any regular man. They can try but eventually, someone with the right stuff may be able to defeat a maleficarum. (Sports72Xtrm (talk) 13:57, March 1, 2014 (UTC))
- @Sports72Xtrm, Bleeding and dying are no argument to not be afraid. High dragons also bleed and die from knife, but everyone is afraid of them, they are flying cataclycisms. I am not afraid of an unarmed human and mages are constantly armed in magic, 1000 times more powerful than arrow or blade or spear. Ballistas and catapultes are destructive, but they can be locked in storage rooms, when mage can't be be disarmed from magic. I won't be afraid of mages, only when their magical powers are disabled by some kind of artifact. In real world everyone is afraid of someone, who has a bomb glued to clothes, so I can't feel safe, when near me is a walking atomic, that can decimate a giant building with a single thought. In DA:Redemption were qunari collars that blocked magical abilities of mages, but that's not considered as canon. If such collars in DA really existed, then the mages could only use fists, when someone pisses them off, not create craters as big as cities.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 16:37, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- Do you have any proof of the nonsense you're spouting? do you have one shred of evidence to any of this? is there any record of a mage waltzing thru a marketplace and suddenly burns down a shop because the bread he got was day old? no, because there isnt any, you're literally making up lies now to get your point across. what was that called? oh right! PROPAGANDA! The very thing you seem to hate so much. I dont even think YOU believe the lies, and are just saying all this to be difficult. You're too prideful to admit you might have been wrong this whole time, but have invested too much in becoming Meredith's clone to say so. The ONLY mages I have ever come across (and im going to include players as well) that wanted to rule over men was the one off blood mages you occasionally ran into during DA2. They were obviously crazy as well. Other then Tevinter magisters I've never heard of mages seeking to rule, only to be free from the chantry. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 19:06, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- Anders in DAA said he wants a right to shot bolts in fools or fireballs on templars. He anihilated a colossal building with a single thought. Huon sacrifaced own wife in name of his war with humanity. In Brecilian Forrest I met maleficars, who experimented with a dark force and they even admitted it and in Denerim were corpses of victims of bloody rituals used by local maleficars. I have no trust to someone as powerful as Flemeth or Morrigan, I am sure they want nothing but conquering Thedas thanks to old god baby. I don't want mages nor dragons nor deities nor demons to rule humanity, nobody wants to be ruled by them. You give too much credit to mages, you think they want to be free to heal people, they don't, they don't even care about others but themselves, they want be free to become more powerful and to supress non-mages. They think magic makes them deities, who should rule everyone, that's arrogance called god complex. You don't consider mages want to be free to misuse magic to conquer and destroy. Mages aren't even humans, but demons in human skin. True humans don't have demon powers called magic. I have absolutely no trust to demons and I treat supporters of mages as traitors of humanity. I apocalyptic war I save my kind and mages aren't them, when you in the human world desire slaughter of humans to support demon scions the mages are, they aren't real humans and never were. Besides I have no need of explaining myself to you. FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 19:45, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- Mages are demons in human skin?! Are you kidding me?! Good sir, have you no shame? Now I feel justified in comparing you to the Nazis, as they said very similar things about the Jews, as did the KKK about anyone who wasn't an American-born white Protestant. By using the actions of a few to justify the imprisonment or murder of an entire people, you are doing EXACTLY what Hitler did to the Communists after the Reichstag Fire in 1933. One disaffected Communist set the Reichstag building, the home of the German parliament, on fire the night of 27 February, 1933. Hitler used this event to convince President Hindenburg to pass an emergency law suspending civil liberties. Hitler then had the government arrest all Communists en masse, including the Communist members of Parliament. The Nazis subsequently went from a plurality to an actual majority, making the ailing President Hindenburg the only obstacle to their complete control over the entire German state. When Hindenburg died the next year, Hitler had full control. By the way, that Anders quote from Awakening was a little something called a JOKE! You do not have to think it's funny, but you have to realize that it's a joke.--TheFereldenMagister (talk) 20:11, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- Mages aren't homo sapiens, but homo magicum, 2 different species. True humans don't use demon powers called magic. I have no shame of saving my species over other species in apocalyptic war like Demon Invasion. I protect homo sapiens, not sacriface them to protect homo magicum, who aren't my kind, it would be treason of my own kind. Hitler was chosen by German society, they voted for his party, that was a result of democrasy. He was no differemt from other politicians, who make PRs and advertisements to make peoples believe voting on him is correct, politics of democrasy never changed. Besides every goverment has own secret forces, who slay political enemies and all signs of them disappear. Since always in politics we have skilled master manipulators, who seize control. The irony is poeple like me are so few on this wikia and now I am branded for being different than others.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 20:21, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? homo-magicum? WTF does that even mean? where is this info you've pulled? where is the proof someone has classified mages as its own species? Is this just you making up things to justify the insanity? my three year old makes more sense then what you're spouting. When you first showed up here, your posts were unheard of but I personally thought the community could become better with someone around who has such an extremist view. It was rare to see someone arguing for the Templars and I thought we could all benefit from someone who supported the other side, but no. you've really just gone off the deep end... to the point where you're now literally making up words to justify your insane thought process. You're the one constantly telling people to stop speculating and only use "hard facts" so lets see your hard facts that suddenly mages are a new species? Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 21:41, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- Magic makes mages completelly different from humans, isn't it obvious? Mages aren't humans since they were mutated by demon influence or lyrium or thin veil or something. What makes some have magical powers? I don't know, but that transforms humans into mages. That makes them less humans and closer to demons, because magic comes from fade, where demons live. Magical power is a mutation making mages different from humans. I won't sacriface majority to preserve minority. Magic isn't a human thing, but a demon thing, it's a power of massive destruction caused by a single thought, alien force bringing chaos in human world, it's alien force that destroys the world. I don't want world to be reformed by alien forces, the demons are. FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 22:01, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- Where does this guy ^ buy his weed from? 'Cause that's some good stuff and I really want some. EzzyD (talk) 22:04, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- From nowhere. Words of mage supporters make me oppose them. I oppose them, because they annoyed me.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 22:11, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- It doesn't make any sense to talk to him. Drell paint every mage the same. He see everyone who sympathize with mages ss mind-controlled and he is just like Meredith who put a Rite of Annulment to every mage in Killwall because a mage named Anders blow the chantry.112.198.64.76 (talk) 23:01, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- From nowhere. Words of mage supporters make me oppose them. I oppose them, because they annoyed me.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 22:11, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- By your logic Drell the Mages would be considered just as much spirits as they are demons, as they too also inhabit the fade. For that matter lets go ahead and say all Reavers are homo-revirums and are no longer human as well... oh wait the wardens drink darkspawn blood, they must no longer be human either since they can sense them... You do a lot of work for the Wiki, however after some recent digging I've found most of your edits get undone, and not just here but on the mass effect wiki as well... if you seriously now believe Mages are another species I honestly don't want you to edit another thing on this wiki, as you're clearly not fit for the job. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 00:54, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- What you want from me doesn't matter, you have no right or authority to forbid me doing anything. You're trying to provoke me by confessing your stalking, if it really occured, but I don't get provoked by such failed ruse. I don't stalk anyone's edits.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 08:05, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- Where does this guy ^ buy his weed from? 'Cause that's some good stuff and I really want some. EzzyD (talk) 22:04, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- Magic makes mages completelly different from humans, isn't it obvious? Mages aren't humans since they were mutated by demon influence or lyrium or thin veil or something. What makes some have magical powers? I don't know, but that transforms humans into mages. That makes them less humans and closer to demons, because magic comes from fade, where demons live. Magical power is a mutation making mages different from humans. I won't sacriface majority to preserve minority. Magic isn't a human thing, but a demon thing, it's a power of massive destruction caused by a single thought, alien force bringing chaos in human world, it's alien force that destroys the world. I don't want world to be reformed by alien forces, the demons are. FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 22:01, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? homo-magicum? WTF does that even mean? where is this info you've pulled? where is the proof someone has classified mages as its own species? Is this just you making up things to justify the insanity? my three year old makes more sense then what you're spouting. When you first showed up here, your posts were unheard of but I personally thought the community could become better with someone around who has such an extremist view. It was rare to see someone arguing for the Templars and I thought we could all benefit from someone who supported the other side, but no. you've really just gone off the deep end... to the point where you're now literally making up words to justify your insane thought process. You're the one constantly telling people to stop speculating and only use "hard facts" so lets see your hard facts that suddenly mages are a new species? Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 21:41, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- Mages aren't homo sapiens, but homo magicum, 2 different species. True humans don't use demon powers called magic. I have no shame of saving my species over other species in apocalyptic war like Demon Invasion. I protect homo sapiens, not sacriface them to protect homo magicum, who aren't my kind, it would be treason of my own kind. Hitler was chosen by German society, they voted for his party, that was a result of democrasy. He was no differemt from other politicians, who make PRs and advertisements to make peoples believe voting on him is correct, politics of democrasy never changed. Besides every goverment has own secret forces, who slay political enemies and all signs of them disappear. Since always in politics we have skilled master manipulators, who seize control. The irony is poeple like me are so few on this wikia and now I am branded for being different than others.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 20:21, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- Mages are demons in human skin?! Are you kidding me?! Good sir, have you no shame? Now I feel justified in comparing you to the Nazis, as they said very similar things about the Jews, as did the KKK about anyone who wasn't an American-born white Protestant. By using the actions of a few to justify the imprisonment or murder of an entire people, you are doing EXACTLY what Hitler did to the Communists after the Reichstag Fire in 1933. One disaffected Communist set the Reichstag building, the home of the German parliament, on fire the night of 27 February, 1933. Hitler used this event to convince President Hindenburg to pass an emergency law suspending civil liberties. Hitler then had the government arrest all Communists en masse, including the Communist members of Parliament. The Nazis subsequently went from a plurality to an actual majority, making the ailing President Hindenburg the only obstacle to their complete control over the entire German state. When Hindenburg died the next year, Hitler had full control. By the way, that Anders quote from Awakening was a little something called a JOKE! You do not have to think it's funny, but you have to realize that it's a joke.--TheFereldenMagister (talk) 20:11, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- Anders in DAA said he wants a right to shot bolts in fools or fireballs on templars. He anihilated a colossal building with a single thought. Huon sacrifaced own wife in name of his war with humanity. In Brecilian Forrest I met maleficars, who experimented with a dark force and they even admitted it and in Denerim were corpses of victims of bloody rituals used by local maleficars. I have no trust to someone as powerful as Flemeth or Morrigan, I am sure they want nothing but conquering Thedas thanks to old god baby. I don't want mages nor dragons nor deities nor demons to rule humanity, nobody wants to be ruled by them. You give too much credit to mages, you think they want to be free to heal people, they don't, they don't even care about others but themselves, they want be free to become more powerful and to supress non-mages. They think magic makes them deities, who should rule everyone, that's arrogance called god complex. You don't consider mages want to be free to misuse magic to conquer and destroy. Mages aren't even humans, but demons in human skin. True humans don't have demon powers called magic. I have absolutely no trust to demons and I treat supporters of mages as traitors of humanity. I apocalyptic war I save my kind and mages aren't them, when you in the human world desire slaughter of humans to support demon scions the mages are, they aren't real humans and never were. Besides I have no need of explaining myself to you. FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 19:45, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
- Do you have any proof of the nonsense you're spouting? do you have one shred of evidence to any of this? is there any record of a mage waltzing thru a marketplace and suddenly burns down a shop because the bread he got was day old? no, because there isnt any, you're literally making up lies now to get your point across. what was that called? oh right! PROPAGANDA! The very thing you seem to hate so much. I dont even think YOU believe the lies, and are just saying all this to be difficult. You're too prideful to admit you might have been wrong this whole time, but have invested too much in becoming Meredith's clone to say so. The ONLY mages I have ever come across (and im going to include players as well) that wanted to rule over men was the one off blood mages you occasionally ran into during DA2. They were obviously crazy as well. Other then Tevinter magisters I've never heard of mages seeking to rule, only to be free from the chantry. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 19:06, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
Drell where is this sense of entitlement that only muggles are allowed to thrive in the world of Thedas? Magic is part of the World of Thedas. So are darkspawn, dragons, Qunari, and elves and dwarves. If it didn't have those things, it wouldn't be a fantasy world, it would just be historical fiction. It's part of a the setting and in an RP standpoint, if there was a Maker, he created all those creatures. What gives muggles the right to put themselves above every other "alien" creature? How can one's bigotry be so much that they can't concieve a world where there is room for everybody, everything, as short and brief as a mortal's existence is?(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 02:24, March 2, 2014 (UTC))
- It's actually a bit ironic he complains constantly about there being binary choices, yet he can't come to a middle ground with the mages and the mundanes Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 05:29, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- Drell is a very hypocrite person to make a reply now Warden Fenris. Or maybe he just wanted to troll in this forum. It's good change his name as FirstTrollSpectre.27.110.177.247 (talk) 07:09, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- I am no hypocryte and you as everyone else can't bear that there is someone, who absolutelly disagrees with you. I complain about binary choices and I had middle ground with mages - isolationists' idea of mages living on a lone island far from non-mages, but it no longer matters in DAI, because Fiona started her beloved war and now it's supporting mages or templars, there is no middle ground. It's pointless to wonder about things that don't matter anymore. Isolationists' idea is now impossible to make real in M-T war. Imagining middle ground, when any middle ground is no longer an option is pointless. Journalists made it clear that in DAI are no middle grounds in m-t war, so searching for middle grounds no longer matter. I wanted a middle ground, but thanks to the journalists I realised developers don't give us any option of middle ground, each player has to support either mages or templars. Besides 2 years ago I argued with those, who don't want any middle ground because they lacked faith in this and then I wanted middle grounds, for over 20 month I know there is no middle ground in this war when I read what journalists wrote. I really don't know why do I always meet people who don't believe in middle grounds, when I do believe and vice versa. Shortly I don't wonder about middle grounds anymore because I was informed by journalists that there is no middle ground. Besides have you recently put any idea of middle grounds? No, so don't act like you're better in this. Only Sports72Xtrm showed some of ideas.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 07:54, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- You need to realize that even if the mages isolated themnselves there are still mages that will born in the world. The cycle is still continues.And what will you suggest abortion?27.110.177.247 (talk) 08:13, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- No, I suggest to match parents so their children would not be mages. Mages born because their ancestors were mages. If other thing like thin veil or lyrium radiation or something else causes mages to be born from non-mage parents, then people should simply live far from such things.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 08:27, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- You misunderstand do you? Even the parents are non-mages they are still born. You sound like a scientist who think that lyrium exposure will cause magic then why dwarves have no affinity to magic and they are exposed. And I suggest is to destroy magic but it's impossible.27.110.177.247 (talk) 08:31, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- I never said I know what causes some are born with magic powers, nobody knows this. What doesn't kill you that strengthens you. Dwarves have different genetic structure than humans or elves or qunari, lyrium radiation made them resistant but not immune on magic. Dwarves were constantly radiated by lyrium, when rest of sentient species weren't, so their organismus got used to radiation, dwarves evolved to become resistant to lyrium.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 08:42, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- You misunderstand do you? Even the parents are non-mages they are still born. You sound like a scientist who think that lyrium exposure will cause magic then why dwarves have no affinity to magic and they are exposed. And I suggest is to destroy magic but it's impossible.27.110.177.247 (talk) 08:31, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- No, I suggest to match parents so their children would not be mages. Mages born because their ancestors were mages. If other thing like thin veil or lyrium radiation or something else causes mages to be born from non-mage parents, then people should simply live far from such things.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 08:27, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- You need to realize that even if the mages isolated themnselves there are still mages that will born in the world. The cycle is still continues.And what will you suggest abortion?27.110.177.247 (talk) 08:13, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
People like Drell see the evilness of magic than its benefit. If Bioware gave me an option to destroy the existence magic then I will choose it. The remain is pride and ambition of the people in Thedas. So like the quote in Fallout "War Never Changes".112.200.75.125 (talk) 09:32, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- There won't be an option of destroying magic, because Bioware planns next games of DA series and nobody can imagine fantasy rpg without magic and wizards.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 09:41, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- What I am trying to say is pride and ambition of the people in Thedas that causes wars for many centuries not magic. Magic is neither good or bad. And don't comment on things that make magic is evil because Dragon Age is a Fantasy Game.112.200.75.125 (talk) 10:04, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- I never said magic is bad or good, you put not my words in my mouth.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 10:06, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- You said that every mage is evil. Mages using magic. Therefore, magic is evil. A simple logic.112.200.75.125 (talk) 10:10, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- I never said magic is bad or good, you put not my words in my mouth.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 10:06, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- What I am trying to say is pride and ambition of the people in Thedas that causes wars for many centuries not magic. Magic is neither good or bad. And don't comment on things that make magic is evil because Dragon Age is a Fantasy Game.112.200.75.125 (talk) 10:04, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
@Drell I don't parade around the wiki, uploading images of twoface barking about no more binary choices. I was one of the people who told you sometimes life doesn't give a middle ground, and that within the M-T war you should be invested invested enough to want to pick a side, because a middle ground option with the m-t war would only delay the war not end it. And I have come up with ideas in other forums about binary choices actually being a good thing, when done properly like with Awakening's choices between Amaranthine and Vigil's keep. So yes I am better then "this" because I've had open conversations with the community and keep an open mind to new ideas, I don't tell people my entitled opinion, act as if I'm the only one who is right, and tell everyone "nothing" will ever change my mind. and then top off the crazy by making up words and theories to justify it all. THIS is exactly why you've had such a hard time within the forums, and blogs, and hell even when editing the wiki. Either get an open mind, and be willing to actually discuss things, and be willing to change your own opinion, or just stop. Stop in general... stop posting in forums, stop speaking in blogs, stop editing the wiki. If this is all you bring to the community were better off without you. You know a great deal about dragon age, and you've done a lot of work on the wiki, it's truly a shame you can't just put that damn pride aside and act like a decent human being by following social contract, and just have a conversation. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 16:43, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- You know nothing about me and my question was rethorical. Just because I embarass you, you tell me to not edit wiki or write on forums or blog, you have no right to tell me what to do. I don't tell you to stop doing anything, despite you're the last person I wanna speak with unlike you. You stalk me like you have an obsession, that's not better. Your pride is the problem, because you can't stay silent, when someones strongly disagrees with you about mages and you act when someone has no desire to support mages like you want. You still haven't realised I do not listen to anyone and I don't want to do something, because others do so.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 17:07, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- Again I'm going to ask where your proof is to any of this. I stalk you because I have an obsession? You cant go anywhere on these forums without seeing you mass responding to posts to bury the ones you don't like. Embarrass me? lol when? you have yet to make an actual point here... That's why everyone else on here has compared you with Nazis and pointed out how you flip flop on your points. No I have no real power or authority to stop you from doing anything. However, if this is how you make your edits, with these wild theories claiming mages are another species... You'll get yourself removed from editing, it's only a matter of time. For the record I have stayed silent, and that IS the very problem. I've stayed silent for far too long. I even left these forums to avoid you for quite a long period of time. But finally the admins caught wind of how you behave, and started to ban you. while you were being banned is when I finally came back. I shouldn't have to feel like I can't come to one of my favorite places on the net simply because you're difficult to deal with. SO now I'm going to be proactive. When you come on here spouting nonsense like mages being homo-magicum I'll be there to tell you how wrong you are, and ask for your facts. I'm willing to bet there are others here who can join me in this cause, until you get it through that thick skull of yours, you need to behave in a manner that benefits the community. I don't care that you hate mages, I care that you're not forming your argument into anything other then hate fodder. Try being courteous for a change and saying something like "I may not personally like magic, but I feel the templars need better training, perhaps learn some techniques from the Qunari on disabling a mage, keep them from learning how to throw fireballs, and focus just on healing magic. That way mages can be better integrated into society, and allowed more freedoms." THAT RIGHT THERE I've made up on the spot and is a million times more compelling of an argument then "Mages are demons in human skin" We could have an awesome time discussing how the chantry would have to stop it's hate of the Qun to work out a deal to learn how they disable mages, the implications of no longer having war mages at their disposal, how the Grey Wardens may get an influx of new mage recruits due to the restraints brought by the templars only allowing healing, how that in turn would benefit the dwarves retaking lost thaigs. and so on. No all you spit is hate hate hate. I don't hate Templars, I understand their necessity, SO you'll never see me saying "I htink all Templars should die, the maker isnt even real anyways so who cares? and no one is ever going to change my mind! I'll kill every Templar I see!" <--- That is an example of what YOUR arguments look like. Theres no room for discussion, it's just hate. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 18:33, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- I have same right to call mages demons and monsters as have the ones, who call templars scums or nazis. You just said what you said you wouldn't say and I awlways saw you like that. They made me think like that. I mentioned qunari collars that appeared in DA:Redpemtion. You scolded me for lacking desire to support mages, saying "are you saying you wouldn't support innocent mages who want nothing more then freedom" that means you care about what I think. You didn't scold the anonymous, who wrote "My sollution is simple destroy fanatical racist chantry", what's nothing but expression of disgust for the church no different than ny expression of mistrust for magic. You didn't scold him, simply because he supported mages. I am a supporter of middle gounds, but I lost illusion there is a middle ground, because the journalists made it clear there isn't, so I no longer wonder about things that won't be able to make real.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 19:14, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- Again I'm going to ask where your proof is to any of this. I stalk you because I have an obsession? You cant go anywhere on these forums without seeing you mass responding to posts to bury the ones you don't like. Embarrass me? lol when? you have yet to make an actual point here... That's why everyone else on here has compared you with Nazis and pointed out how you flip flop on your points. No I have no real power or authority to stop you from doing anything. However, if this is how you make your edits, with these wild theories claiming mages are another species... You'll get yourself removed from editing, it's only a matter of time. For the record I have stayed silent, and that IS the very problem. I've stayed silent for far too long. I even left these forums to avoid you for quite a long period of time. But finally the admins caught wind of how you behave, and started to ban you. while you were being banned is when I finally came back. I shouldn't have to feel like I can't come to one of my favorite places on the net simply because you're difficult to deal with. SO now I'm going to be proactive. When you come on here spouting nonsense like mages being homo-magicum I'll be there to tell you how wrong you are, and ask for your facts. I'm willing to bet there are others here who can join me in this cause, until you get it through that thick skull of yours, you need to behave in a manner that benefits the community. I don't care that you hate mages, I care that you're not forming your argument into anything other then hate fodder. Try being courteous for a change and saying something like "I may not personally like magic, but I feel the templars need better training, perhaps learn some techniques from the Qunari on disabling a mage, keep them from learning how to throw fireballs, and focus just on healing magic. That way mages can be better integrated into society, and allowed more freedoms." THAT RIGHT THERE I've made up on the spot and is a million times more compelling of an argument then "Mages are demons in human skin" We could have an awesome time discussing how the chantry would have to stop it's hate of the Qun to work out a deal to learn how they disable mages, the implications of no longer having war mages at their disposal, how the Grey Wardens may get an influx of new mage recruits due to the restraints brought by the templars only allowing healing, how that in turn would benefit the dwarves retaking lost thaigs. and so on. No all you spit is hate hate hate. I don't hate Templars, I understand their necessity, SO you'll never see me saying "I htink all Templars should die, the maker isnt even real anyways so who cares? and no one is ever going to change my mind! I'll kill every Templar I see!" <--- That is an example of what YOUR arguments look like. Theres no room for discussion, it's just hate. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 18:33, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- As I've said numerous times now... I have not ever scolded you for not supporting mages, I scold you for not having any evidence for your arguments, and spouting hate, and for literally stating propaganda as you so loved to say the rest of us were doing. Do you know why I didnt scold the anon for saying the chantry needed to be destroyed? Because it was said MONTHS ago, when the conversation was done and buried.Which would have stayed buried had you not been trying to bury the other forum posts you dislike, to remove them from the front page. Had I been around during the time it was originally being discussed I WOULD contest that idea, as FAITH is a continuous theme in the DA series and universe. Also that solution isn't PRO magic, it's just ANTI chantry and there's a huge difference between the two. SO apparently I can make you think there's no binary choices by saying "If by now in the story you havn't picked a side, stop playing dragon age. They've said this is a game about choices and consequences" which is pretty much exactly what we said in the post you keep referring to, but I can't change your mind on mages deserving freedom. I guess you DO care what I think... Also, to be so petty as to say "you just said what you said you'd never say!" is completely childish and should be below us both at this point. It's obvious I was showing an example of a statement. You can't just say "you'll never here me say..." and then not state it. That's not how language works. Since you seem to keep skipping over my point, I'm going to restate it again here. Take your opinion, form an argument (not a statement) present it to the community in an open ended fashion. Such as "This is what I think should happen" site examples, and then end with "what do you all think of my idea?" Personally I don't like blood mages or blood magic, So I started a forum post to have other players who do like blood magic to explain to me why they use it and how they justify it. I showed interest in the other side's argument, I engaged in the conversation. Has my opinion of blood magic changed? No, but I now can see the "non evil" reasons why a mage may choose to use blood magic. Thats how the forum is supposed to work. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 20:28, March 2, 2014 (UTC)
- Sigh Drell stop this if you don't like to discuss in this forum anyway.122.54.218.77 (talk) 05:05, March 3, 2014 (UTC)
Mage problem? I don't really see much of a "mage problem." That's pretty biased right off the bat. Anyway, I have supported mages pretty much unilaterally throughout the series. The idea of the minority opressed by a megalithic church hits too close to home for me not to. It's the same reason I have been reading X-Men comics for 30 years. I saved the Circle in DA:O and used them to save Connor and I supported the mages at every turn in DA:2. I romanced Anders and continued my romance with him after the chantry was destroyed. He and Hawke skipped off into the sunset together, spreading the groovy revolution. I am firm believer in the "Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters" replacement for the Circle. Too much oppression will inevitably lead to violence. History has proven it time and time again. If mages were not treated so harshly, I bet you would see the incidence of Blood Magic go down quite a lot. Jowan only turns to Blood Magic out of desperation. Kirkwall is ridiculous in its harshness when dealing with mages and look how much Blood Magic goes on there. It's pretty much a causal relationship as I see it. Wataru14 (talk) 03:36, March 4, 2014 (UTC)
- While I am on your side of the debate, there is no doubt that there has to be SOME regulation on magic. If there isn't, well, just look at Tevinter. Any form of power, be it arcane, political, or religious, is corrupting, and the more you give a person or a group, the more corrupting it becomes, and the more liable they are to abuse it. The Templars and the Chantry were given far too much power over the lives of the people, and, as all imperfect beings are guaranteed to do, they abused it. Power will always corrupt, no matter how good and nice a person is. Any future system will require whatever replaces the Templars, I'll call them the Neo-Templars for lack of a better term, to have a check on the power of mages to prevent another Tevinter; but, in the same vein, the mages need to have an equal and opposite check on Neo-Templars to prevent another Meredith from arising.--TheFereldenMagister (talk) 04:44, March 4, 2014 (UTC)
- In Tevinter is no "School for Gifted Youngsters", it's a spartan school according to Fenris and Varania. The former said the magisters cosntantly compete and consume rivals fortunes and the biggest satisfaction for magister is to enslave a rival magister. The latter said her mistress worked hard for her position by any means and more powerful magisters ridiculed her. Wataru speculate by "what if" and I say blood magic is older than Tevinter, we'll never learn what would have happened if something else happened. Neo-templars will be just templars you all know and hate by different name only, as you say power always corrupts, you'll just repeat history. Every institutions becomes corrupt in time. Wardens are older than templars and they havethe real power over Anderfels, they also control Amarantine already. Their role was to kill darkspawns only, not taking over kingdoms. In Tevinter law is fake, there are also templars with no antimagical powers, but they are simple police ruled by magisters. Magister say blood magic is officially forbidden and despite this it's no secrect blood magic is a common as breathing in Tevinter. There templars also have right of annulement, but it's only on paper, because magisters made themselves untouchable with this fake law. Tehrone was never a circle mages, she wanted to build a new Tevinter, Qunetin was also never in Kirkwall Circle, he went to blood magic after he became insane as a result of his wife's death, another non-circle blood mage was Fell Orden, who with rest of Evet's Murauders was robbing and raping for years. Jowan didn't learn blood magic because of desperation, on his page is written "If the Warden is a mage and executes Jowan, he'll reveal that he started to practice blood magic in order to become more powerful, because he always felt inferior compared to the Warden.". Kirkwall is known from the local tempalrs and somehow apostates and blood mages go near the city willingly, that's stupid. It's said in Kirkwall s thin veil, which attracts blood mages, demons, darkspawns and criminals, but are the 1st and the 4th group so weak minded to be attracted there? FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 12:59, March 4, 2014 (UTC)
I supported mages pretty much right off the bat, before I even fully understood all the lore. When I first started playing and was just sort of goofing around in Origins, I went to the Circle Tower and was told the templars were going to slaughter all the mages I was basically like, "oh heck no." I saved the mages because they were people in a bad situation caused by one dude and a couple of his dumb little buddies. I don't even think blood magic is inherently evil; it's what you do with it that makes it a bad thing or not. I usually choose the middle ground options, and try to make peace when I can rather than choose one side or the other, though. I helped the mages when they needed it, and the templars when they needed it, but never threw my full support fully behind either until the end of DAII. All bets are off in Inquisition, though. My first Inquisitor is going to be the pro-iest pro-mage the world has ever seen.Marleysauce (talk) 15:38, March 4, 2014 (UTC)