So there i was re-playing Awakening, meeting Sigrun after she was getting dragged by darkspawn, and thats when it finally hits me. Why in THE WORLD do orzammar lets women fight in their army against the darkspawn, or even worse, join the Legion of the Dead??? Heres the thing. We know just what happens when the darkspawn get their hands on a woman, they turn them into Broodmothers. The way i see it, no matter how good a woman might be as fighter its just not worth the damn risk to send them right into the lions den, one mistake and then BOOOOM she will give birth to thousands of darkspawn, essentially replacing any darkspawn she might have killed as a solider and then more, a LOT more. Hell, Sigrun, who is a grade-A badass herself, only escaped her predicament because she was lucky the warden-commander was passing by at the moment.
That also goes to the surface races during the time of blights, i mean, i can see the writers hand-waving the whole problem when it comes to female Grey Wardens by the means of "Those who are wardens cant become broodmothers" or something like that (and personaly i would be okay with such explanation) but what about all the others non-GW female soldiers? Sending non-GW women towards the darkspawn instead of far away from them is just downright fucking stupid no matter how i see it. Its like asking to be outnumbered.
Plot hole, oversight, or is my reasoning wrong? Discuss... --Galvao18 (talk)
I've read somewhere that the writers hadn't considered it. Only in a intervieuw with some female fans was it that David Gaider realised that female grey wardens going to their Calling was a bad idea. I believe that it was said that it was unkown how Broodmothers came into existance. Your warden was the first to witness the process. Gaider also said that it was something he could use in future entries to the series. Don't quote me on this though, I read that article/interview a long time ago. I'll go and search for it. Details have no doubt escaped me. --M. Shields (talk) 17:58, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- The broodmother codex states the wardens already know about the broodmothers though, thats the problem --Galvao18 (talk)
- Found it! Live Journal interview Acording to this interview the Grey Wardens are aware that broodmothers exist, but don't know their origin. --M. Shields (talk) 18:14, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- So, they oficially retconned the codex entry? (Link is not working for me, i'm just taking your word for it) --Galvao18 (talk)
- Fixed the link. Just read the codex. It says how "Forays made by Grey Wardens into the underground have uncovered the answer" to why darkspawn drag people underground. You could be the Grey Wardens the codex speaks about. So it doesn't really have to be retconned. I understand the confussion though. --M. Shields (talk) 18:25, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
Well, the wardens are a secretive bunch, not surprised that they wouldn't tell the whole world about how broodmother's are made. That being said, I don't think the writers wanted to have women stereotyped and "unable" to fight, which is what could have happened had they chosen to really hammer the whole broodmother thing in to the players mind. The way I see it is, women are allowed into the legion of the dead because they know about broodmothers too, and they tell the women that should they be captured they should bash their heads against the wall until the die. Topsider's who aren't grey wardens are just ignorant of the fact, and the wardens don't tell them because they know it will insight fear amongst the female soldiers, which will then weaken the strength of the army and almost definitely result in more broodmothers. The wardens pretty much take a chance, and hope for the best. 
18:23, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- And as for the dwarves, they don't have the numbers to turn down anyone ready and willing to defend their borders. Which is why the casteless thing is so stupid. Luper567 (talk)
- >"Well, the wardens are a secretive bunch, not surprised that they wouldn't tell the whole world about how broodmother's are made"
- I am, i know the warden are secretive but there is nothing to gain by not telling the world about this, quite the opposite, they are just making their enemy stronger.
- > they tell the women that should they be captured they should bash their heads against the wall until the die.
- People chicken out before comiting suicide all the time, Sigrun certainly didnt kill herself, Personally if i were a dwarven king this isnt a risk i'd be willing to take.
- > the wardens don't tell them because they know it will insight fear amongst the female soldiers, which will then weaken the strength of the army and almost definitely result in more broodmothers.
- I get what you're saying, but having the wardens tell the entire world would bring about chaos everytime darkspawn appear. Strong female warriors would leave men behind to die just so they don't have to face that fate. The abandoned men would be demoralized because they alone are left to fight against monstrous darkspawn. What would you do in that position? Run? Fight and kill as many darkspawn as you could even though you are pretty much guaranteed a gruesome death? The wardens may be making their enemy stronger by keeping this information to themselves, but the alternative is to weaken their own force by choosing not to have women fight by their side. When it comes to a blight, they need all the strength they can get, the archdemon has to be killed at all costs, otherwise there is nothing stopping the darkspawn from taking women and making them broodmothers, further strengthening their army.
- Sigrun didn't need to kill herself at that moment, there was still hope, she struggled to escape her captors, the wardens intervention saved her. When I say they should commit suicide however they can, I mean they should do that only when they are in a position like Felsi, being forced to consume the corruption. That is when they should do it, because that is when the alternative will be seen clearly. That is when there is no hope.
- Thats a big if you mention there, these are female soldiers with weapons, the darkspawn would have to disarm them and not mortally wound them to be able to drag them off. This is something I don't expect darkspawn capable of doing outside of an archdemon's influence. The darkspawn are better off just dragging helpless damsels down into the deep roads outside of a blight. Besides, I can't remember seeing a codex entry that talked about darkspawn bolstering their numbers deliberately outside of a blight, I mean its not like they deliberately go off and find women to transform. They spend most of their time digging for an old god so they can begin a new blight. 20:23, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- Thats a big if you mention there, these are female soldiers with weapons, the darkspawn would have to disarm them and not mortally wound them to be able to drag them off. This is something I don't expect darkspawn capable of doing outside of an archdemon's influence. The darkspawn are better off just dragging helpless damsels down into the deep roads outside of a blight. Besides, I can't remember seeing a codex entry that talked about darkspawn bolstering their numbers deliberately outside of a blight, I mean its not like they deliberately go off and find women to transform. They spend most of their time digging for an old god so they can begin a new blight.
- At that time they might not be able to kill themselves and it actually rather easy not to have women in your army; it is not as if they do not choose who are going to fight the darkspawn (and the men should therefore not be so demoralized, not more than usual anyway). And if all fails you might as well put your female soldiers as a last line of defense against the darkspawn protecting your cities (if the females are captured then it does not matter as everyone else is). Caspoi (talk) 20:33, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- Oh yeah, the army selection should be different if non-GW's have that knowledge. I should have specified that it was about wandering groups of soldiers encountering darkspawn. That situation would be demoralizing. And yes, there is the possibility that they can't kill themselves should they be captured but that's an unfortunate uncertainty on the matter. The only character we've seen going through the process is Felsi, and she lost the plot, for various reasons. But you can't deny, in the event of a blight, it would be better to have a few hundred extra soldiers (experienced soldiers not just canon fodder) than to not have them, even if the fight results in more darkspawn being made. In my opinion it's a safer risk to take given the enormity of the threat, those female soldiers may be killed in action, they may be captured, they may be the deciding factor in the battle. But without them the odds are stacked even more in favor of the blight. That same logic can be applied to the deep roads, without the female dwarves more ground could be lost. Against the darkspawn, everything you can throw them is useful, even if it ends up reinforcing the enemy numbers. I expect things are different now, since other people have mentioned the codex entry says GW don't know where broodmothers come from. And if you think about it, it makes it very interesting for the future, like the possibility of a double blight... 21:05, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- >"But you can't deny, in the event of a blight, it would be better to have a few hundred extra soldiers (experienced soldiers not just canon fodder) than to not have them"
- But heres the thing, a single broodmother can give birth to " thousands of darkspawn over the course of her lifetime". Id rather have 1000 soldiers fighting 3000 darkspawns than have 1500 soldiers fighting 300000
- > "Against the darkspawn, everything you can throw them is useful, even if it ends up reinforcing the enemy numbers"
- Da fuck am i reading? No seriously, what kind of logic is that? No offense but you cant possibly believe this is a smart thing to do. --Galvao18 (talk)
- Oh yeah, the army selection should be different if non-GW's have that knowledge. I should have specified that it was about wandering groups of soldiers encountering darkspawn. That situation would be demoralizing. And yes, there is the possibility that they can't kill themselves should they be captured but that's an unfortunate uncertainty on the matter. The only character we've seen going through the process is Felsi, and she lost the plot, for various reasons. But you can't deny, in the event of a blight, it would be better to have a few hundred extra soldiers (experienced soldiers not just canon fodder) than to not have them, even if the fight results in more darkspawn being made. In my opinion it's a safer risk to take given the enormity of the threat, those female soldiers may be killed in action, they may be captured, they may be the deciding factor in the battle. But without them the odds are stacked even more in favor of the blight. That same logic can be applied to the deep roads, without the female dwarves more ground could be lost. Against the darkspawn, everything you can throw them is useful, even if it ends up reinforcing the enemy numbers. I expect things are different now, since other people have mentioned the codex entry says GW don't know where broodmothers come from. And if you think about it, it makes it very interesting for the future, like the possibility of a double blight...
- See that's the thing, 1500 against 3000 at that point in time is better than 1000 against 3000 at that point in time. Broodmothers aren't made instantly, it takes time. So bolstering the numbers for the present and forgetting about the future is a good idea, because if they lose, there won't be a future anyway. Why? Because there will be nothing stopping the darkspawn from changing every remaining woman into a broodmother and in turn spawning billions more darkspawn.
- That is called "All hope is lost" logic. That is what the darkspawn symbolize, that is what people think when a blight occurs. It's only when the wardens appear that they think otherwise. And yes, I do believe that is a good idea, what else are you going to do? Abandon your home and run with your tail between your legs? Fight and die? Let your sister/mother/daughter/wife be transformed into a broodmother because you didn't want to let women fight beside you? Is it not better to die trying to defend everything you hold dear regardless of the consequence?
21:44, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- That is called "All hope is lost" logic. That is what the darkspawn symbolize, that is what people think when a blight occurs. It's only when the wardens appear that they think otherwise. And yes, I do believe that is a good idea, what else are you going to do? Abandon your home and run with your tail between your legs? Fight and die? Let your sister/mother/daughter/wife be transformed into a broodmother because you didn't want to let women fight beside you? Is it not better to die trying to defend everything you hold dear regardless of the consequence?
- >"See that's the thing, 1500 against 3000 at that point in time is better than 1000 against 3000 at that point in time. Broodmothers aren't made instantly, it takes time"
- We know that the broodmother we met during the search for the Anvil was created in less than two years, we also know that blighs usually last for whole decades. Think about that one.
- Also, You're implying that the women soldiers are essential, and without them, the man cant do shit. Man aint that weak, hell in the real-world we fought by ourselves for centuries just fine. Plus, if the Gender Equality Paradox is anything to go by, i doubt the females make up for more than 10% of the armies. So yeah, the smart thing to do is fighting with only 90% of the army than risk increasing the enemys army by 10000%--Galvao18 (talk)
- I am not saying the women are essential, I am saying every battle against the darkspawn during a blight must be won, whatever the cost. Why? Because the alternative is to let them wreak havoc across any land where no one will stand against them, or where they have already beaten those who stand against them. And courtesy of the Anon: "Women, however, undergo great pain and gross mutations that cause most of them to perish." Not all of the captured become broodmothers. Many die, like in the joining, think about that. So yes, regardless of your argument, I would still choose to make use of that 10%. Hmm, lets see, do we "Give 'em everything we've got?" or do we "Leave the women behind because we're afraid they'll get captured and become broodmothers because we think they can't defend themselves, and because of this we all die at the hands of the darkspawn because they outnumber us a hundred to one?" Blights may last 10 years, but think about the cost of lives lost for every Darkspawn victory. I'd rather have a few hundred women fighting beside a few thousand men just because the odds of victory are better. 22:26, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- I am not saying the women are essential, I am saying every battle against the darkspawn during a blight must be won, whatever the cost. Why? Because the alternative is to let them wreak havoc across any land where no one will stand against them, or where they have already beaten those who stand against them. And courtesy of the Anon: "Women, however, undergo great pain and gross mutations that cause most of them to perish." Not all of the captured become broodmothers. Many die, like in the joining, think about that. So yes, regardless of your argument, I would still choose to make use of that 10%. Hmm, lets see, do we "Give 'em everything we've got?" or do we "Leave the women behind because we're afraid they'll get captured and become broodmothers because we think they can't defend themselves, and because of this we all die at the hands of the darkspawn because they outnumber us a hundred to one?" Blights may last 10 years, but think about the cost of lives lost for every Darkspawn victory. I'd rather have a few hundred women fighting beside a few thousand men just because the odds of victory are better.
- Heres the problem, i know that most of the captured women dies, but the few that lives give birth to thousands of darkspawn, we are not talking about a dozen here, but THOUSANDS, this is no laughting matter. If they manage to capture 100 fem soldiers during one siege and ten of them become BM, we will soon have in our hands TEN FREAKING THOUSAND darkspawn. I dont see how the odds are better here.--Galvao18 (talk)
- "thousands of darkspawn over the course of her lifetime" We aren't talking about 10000 darkspawn appearing immediately. We're talking about two-ish years of the Broodmother's being made, then over the course of what? 20-30 years plus, spawning thousands of darkspawn. Not to mention, these newborn darkspawn won't be fighting fit straight off. Even more time will pass before they are able to fight, by which time the blight is most likely nearing its end. The more soldiers fighting in the field = the more darkspawn killed. The more darkspawn victories = the more soldiers killed. The more women fighting = more broodmothers = more darkspawn a decade later. BUT The more women fighting = the more soldiers fighting in the field = the more darkspawn killed. The odds are better because one victory here prevents a definite loss there. Even if the darkspawn comeback tenfold, that is a problem to deal with THEN, not one for people to worry about when they face annihilation. It is mindless, yes, but in trying to prevent more darkspawn being born, it increases the risk of losing a battle and thus creating more darkspawn anyway. 23:00, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- "thousands of darkspawn over the course of her lifetime" We aren't talking about 10000 darkspawn appearing immediately. We're talking about two-ish years of the Broodmother's being made, then over the course of what? 20-30 years plus, spawning thousands of darkspawn. Not to mention, these newborn darkspawn won't be fighting fit straight off. Even more time will pass before they are able to fight, by which time the blight is most likely nearing its end. The more soldiers fighting in the field = the more darkspawn killed. The more darkspawn victories = the more soldiers killed. The more women fighting = more broodmothers = more darkspawn a decade later. BUT The more women fighting = the more soldiers fighting in the field = the more darkspawn killed. The odds are better because one victory here prevents a definite loss there. Even if the darkspawn comeback tenfold, that is a problem to deal with THEN, not one for people to worry about when they face annihilation. It is mindless, yes, but in trying to prevent more darkspawn being born, it increases the risk of losing a battle and thus creating more darkspawn anyway.
- Unfortunatelly, we dont have enough data to support these assumptions, we dont know how long it takes a broodmother to replenish their number nor do we know how many darkspawn a regular female soldier kills during her career. I can see your point but since we cant calculate the risk/benefit i'm afraid our discussion just hit a wall --Galvao18 (talk)
- "Broodmothers give birth to a large litter at once, between twenty and fifty children. They emerge from her womb as toddlers, often already able to walk, and grow rapidly in their first few weeks of life. A broodmother will birth thousands of darkspawn young in her lifetime." We know the average born in each litter of darkspawn, not the time of gestation. I would assume the average female soldier can kill the more or less the same amount of darkspawn as the average male soldier, depending on their training. Truth be told, this discussion is relatively pointless unless we focus on dwarves. That is because the origins character creator states that men and women are equally represented in the military forces of Ferelden. We don't know how the blights went in other countries, but we know that Ozammar pretty much has the same equality. SO... to answer your original question, they fight darkspawn because they want to, they are allowed because they want to, and because there is nothing to say they can't. Yet. That may change with the revelation of the broodmothers origins. 23:29, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- "Broodmothers give birth to a large litter at once, between twenty and fifty children. They emerge from her womb as toddlers, often already able to walk, and grow rapidly in their first few weeks of life. A broodmother will birth thousands of darkspawn young in her lifetime." We know the average born in each litter of darkspawn, not the time of gestation. I would assume the average female soldier can kill the more or less the same amount of darkspawn as the average male soldier, depending on their training. Truth be told, this discussion is relatively pointless unless we focus on dwarves. That is because the origins character creator states that men and women are equally represented in the military forces of Ferelden. We don't know how the blights went in other countries, but we know that Ozammar pretty much has the same equality. SO... to answer your original question, they fight darkspawn because they want to, they are allowed because they want to, and because there is nothing to say they can't. Yet. That may change with the revelation of the broodmothers origins.
- Oh yeah, don't disregard what happens to the men, they are used as labour and then as food. So, captured men also contribute to the creation of a broodmother, as well as fortification for the darkspawn. Although what labour men do isn't specified. But less captured men means the darkspawn have to feed the women to the women, or go out and capture more men to use as food. 23:56, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- Oh yeah, don't disregard what happens to the men, they are used as labour and then as food. So, captured men also contribute to the creation of a broodmother, as well as fortification for the darkspawn. Although what labour men do isn't specified. But less captured men means the darkspawn have to feed the women to the women, or go out and capture more men to use as food.
- >"I would assume the average female soldier can kill the more or less the same amount of darkspawn as the average male soldier"
- and how much is that?
- >"equally represented in the military forces of Ferelden"
- which doesnt make any sense whatsoever considering the Gender Equality Paradox, but i digress...
- > "That may change with the revelation of the broodmothers origins."
- At least we both agree on that. (assuming however that the general population dont already know about the BMs, in that case we are back to square one)
- Also, please, slave labor happened in pretty much hundreds of civilizations, that cant be compared to become what is essentially becoming a baby factory for the enemy. I kind of see your point on the food argument though, but if the captured women werent there in the first place the man wouldnt be used as food (i realize this argument can be used in reverse as in "if the men werent there in the first place than they wouldnt be able to feed the women and turn them into BMs" but then we would fall into the 90% male soldiers vs 10% fem soldiers problem we talked about earlier) --Galvao18 (talk)
- Did I compare slave labor to broodmothers? No, I didn't, I said don't disregard what happens to the men, they get dragged into the deep roads as well. The number of darkspawn an average soldier can kill would be based upon their training, I stated as much before, so if you're going to quote me in refuting me, at least read what I've written. The gender equality paradox doesn't have a place in this fantasy world, so disregard it. Thedas would be incredibly boring had women never been allowed to do anything of importance, and the dragon age series would be just another one of those cliche "men are superior just because". Women are equally represented because that is the will of the writers. And no, there is no evidence to say the general population has any knowledge whatsoever of the broodmothers, so we can steer clear of square one. Even if they did, women should still be given the choice to defend themselves and everything they hold dear, it may not make sense, but it fits given that the world we are discussing doesn't discriminate based on gender. 11:10, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
- Did I compare slave labor to broodmothers? No, I didn't, I said don't disregard what happens to the men, they get dragged into the deep roads as well. The number of darkspawn an average soldier can kill would be based upon their training, I stated as much before, so if you're going to quote me in refuting me, at least read what I've written. The gender equality paradox doesn't have a place in this fantasy world, so disregard it. Thedas would be incredibly boring had women never been allowed to do anything of importance, and the dragon age series would be just another one of those cliche "men are superior just because". Women are equally represented because that is the will of the writers. And no, there is no evidence to say the general population has any knowledge whatsoever of the broodmothers, so we can steer clear of square one. Even if they did, women should still be given the choice to defend themselves and everything they hold dear, it may not make sense, but it fits given that the world we are discussing doesn't discriminate based on gender.
- I am of a mind with Galvao18 here: a small edge in fighting the darkspawn threat isn't worth a lot when comparing to the fact that you therefore also create the next generation of darkspawn. And people will most likely flee when fighting darkspawn as small groups, in this case I want them to. Caspoi (talk) 21:26, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- I feel kind of bad proposing this, but why not "equip" all female soldiers with a poison? If things go wrong, they can simply "opt out". Darkspawn don't seem to take everyting away when they drag you under ground. Hespith was fully clothed. You could hide a vial, or some herbs in you clothes. It's what my female warden would do for her calling. Take a nice, slow working poison and take as much darkspawn with her before she.. "expires". --M. Shields (talk) 21:55, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
While I'm sure that there are people in Thedas who know of broodmothers, I'm sure Grey Wardens are pretty much the only ones who would know that women are turned into broodmothers (If they told people that, they'd suffer with recruitment). Female ghouls are likely taken deep into the deep roads where they'll be safer, so it would be difficult for anybody to see the transformation and tell others. Dialogue with Velanna shows that people (Or at least Dalish) aren't aware of the process. The other argument I'd give is that I think becoming a broodmother is a specific process that women have to be put through, otherwise Hespith would also of become one during the long period Branka's house were trapped, evidence for this can also be seen in The Calling book, where the Architect sped up the corruption process for Utha and Genevieve, instead of becoming broodmothers, they were more like general darkspawn. In regards to Gaider's comment about women Warden doing their calling being a bad idea, they go there to die in battle, darkspawn don't specifically spare women all the time and they'd probably rather just convert ghouls than try to capture Wardens, especially given that they are more likely to kill than capture without a Archdemon/other influences giving orders. Welshman15 (talk) 18:35, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
This is a good point. Female mages are fine, since they can just turn into an abomination down there. The body gets too distorted to use and it becomes a killing machine. In fact, I think it was mentioned in Last Flight that many mages in the Wardens plan on becoming abominations during their calling. But once everyone knows where broodmothers come from, they probably would send fewer women in there. Did the dwarves know before Branka's expedition? I can't imagine that the dwarves would allow many women down there otherwise, particularly from surface races. In fact, I'd think they'd tell EVERYBODY where broodmothers come from to keep women away from the deep roads. IF they really didn't know about until the expedition, it's possible that this issue will come up from time to time in the future. I doubt that it will ever be a major plot point, but it would make the whole situation a bit more believable. Sevec 18:36, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I've got the interview piece here. It pretty much says the same thing:
- "TUK: Do Grey Wardens still do the Calling, now that they know about Broodmothers? That was a really terrifying revelation in the first game "Oh my god, any women who are down here in the Deep Roads get taken off to spawn horrible monsters!"
- DG: They always knew about Broodmothers, but they didn't know where Broodmothers came from. Knowing that...wow, I hadn't really considered whether they'd stop doing the Calling. I think if anything it makes it more problematic for female Wardens to do the Calling. That may be something we could incorporate into the future. It'd be an interesting question. Let's say a female Grey Warden starts to hear her Calling and says "Well, my time has come" and the rest of the Wardens say no, you can't go. You're a woman. You don't deserve to take part in what has been long, for many centuries, held as an honorable tradition, as a way for the Grey Wardens to go out in a way where they retain...I don't know if you read The Calling, the novel. The reason they do the Calling is because there's a tipping point at which the corruption in them starts to affect them physically, so rather than become some kind of ghoul they want to die while they still have their humanity, doing what they've spent the majority of their life dedicated to, killing darkspawn, one last hurrah. To go to a woman and say "No, you can't have this honorable ending because of what might happen to you." I think that would be an interesting story. I think in the end it might be up to the individual Warden. I could definitely see a female Warden who would rather kill herself than allow for the possibility that she could be transformed into a Broodmother.
- TUK: Yeah, lots of women nodding in this room...
- DG: That might be something we could bring up in the future, for sure."
- --M. Shields (talk) 18:48, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- Wow. What a gaping hole in DA lore that is. Can't say I've ever cared for the whole Broodmother concept, for reasons I'd rather not get into, lest I be labeled a "social justice warrior." --Death by Cheese (talk) 18:52, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- Well, damn it, the cat's out of the bag. Let me run back to tumblr and reblog several hundred gifs about how my fandom brings me nothing but pain and tears. ;) --Death by Cheese (talk) 03:11, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
- >"Wardens say no, you can't go. You're a woman. You don't deserve to take part in what has been long, for many centuries, held as an honorable tradition"
- Goddamn, tumblr-sjw mentality at its best, this isnt about "deserving" something because of gender. This is about fucking calculated risk (More like calculated disaster, but i digress). Wardens should prepare their female recruits mentally about this from day one, instead of going "herp derp i'm gonna risk making my enemy even stronger than before because gender equality, teehee"
- You know, it would be much easier for gaider to make female gray wardens immune to the broodmother process (as i first suggested) to begin with. This way, not only their calling, but even their recruitment would be justifiable. --Galvao18 (talk)
- Exactly. If you're going to mess around with women's fertility and reproductive rights (woops, call the SJW police), just make it a non-issue by making the Joining a sort of sterilization process for women. Maybe it halts ovulation or kills eggs but not sperm, that way the Warden, Alistair or Loghain can still have their taintbaby. --Death by Cheese (talk) 03:11, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
Am I the only one who saw the title of this forum and immediately assumed it would be made up of random sexist trolls? It's pretty rare for me to go into a forum and come out with MORE faith in humanity. 174.106.140.156 (talk) 20:40, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- No, you're not. I've been watching this with fear that it might descend into chaos, but so far its just been a pleasant, albeit saddening (because of making me notice the plothole), discussion. 20:45, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- I thought the same thing when I read the title. Anyways not every female becomes a Broodmother. It is a more extreme form of the process that makes normal ghouls and many don't even survive that so there would be even less survivors of a more extreme form of that. Plus it says so in the codex entry for Broodmothers, "Women, however, undergo great pain and gross mutations that cause most of them to perish." If so many die then people would probably take a calculated risk that the women would most likely die from the process instead of actually becoming Broodmothers and in the meantime, they can kill as many darkspawn as possible.174.19.226.92 (talk) 22:10, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
On a side note, this disussion reminds me of orzammar exiling the female dwarf noble to the deeproads, I dont think i have enough palms and faces for that one, lol --Galvao18 (talk)
Not sure this has been mentioned, as there is a lot of replies on this page already, but apparently female wardens can still become broodmothers. It's not a spoiler at all really but in Last Flight Isseya mentions that when it will be time for her Calling she plans to become an abomination in the Deep Roads to avoid being turned into a broodmother and kill as many darkspawn as she can. --Xsari (Talk) 00:17, October 16, 2014 (GMT)
- Would that even work? I thought it was mentioned somewhere that demons avoid the taint. Wouldn't they then avoid 'appropriating' a Warden Mage? Shenachie (talk) 00:21, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
Do the darkspawn even manage to turn every single woman they find into a broodmother? I mean, we only see a single broodmother in Origins; not to mention, the "Darkspawn Breeding Ground" in Awakening consisted of only four broodmothers. Shouldn't there be a hell of a lot more broodmothers in the deep roads regardless of the amount of women fighting the Darkspawn? If you ask me, maybe being turned into a broodmother is a lot like taking the Joining in itself, in that there is a high risk of death for going through with it. Maybe more so than the joining. Or maybe the broodmother process involves consuming so many resources (people) that the darkspawn can't create as many broodmothers as thought, so they resort to feeding women to women. Anyway, if Galvao is correct, then either the darkspawn aren't really good at their job, or the writers have some serious explaining/thinking/handwaving to do. Crimpycracker (talk) 23:45, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
Do the dwarves even know how it's all done? Sure, we know, but we know a lot more than what the characters actually know in the game. It's possible that they aren't fully aware of how future darkspawn are made. We don't even figure it out until Hespith (or whatever her name was) told us how it was done, and that was only because she witnessed it (was a part of it). NutMeg29 (talk) 01:30, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
- I would hope that even if the Warden failed to inform The Powers That Be back in Orzammar of what he/she witnessed with Laryn(sp) and Hespith that the second time it occurred with the Legion of the Dead females in Awakening, it would have been reported. It's kind of convenient that the Legion of the Dead, save Sigrun, were wiped out by the Children. With only Sigrun remaining, is leadership in Orzammar going to believe what she says? Will they believe the Warden-Commander? There's so much distrust between races and organizations, even something as huge as a warning about the origin of Broodmothers may not be heeded or even believed. And of course there's always the possibility that the Warden-Commander doesn't report his/her findings. Disturbing. --Death by Cheese (talk) 03:11, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
Broodmother Codex states "It is well-known that darkspawn carry off those captured in their raids to underground lairs. Most assume that the prisoners are eaten, or somehow tainted and turned into darkspawn themselves, though this could never account for the sheer numbers of the horde. Forays made by Grey Wardens into the underground have uncovered the answer. When exposed to the darkspawn taint, men are driven mad and eventually die. --Maverick One (talk) 05:40, October 16, 2014 (UTC)Women, however, undergo great pain and gross mutations that cause most of them to perish. Those that survive, however, become the grotesque broodmothers. These giant, twisted behemoths birth many darkspawn at a time; a single broodmother can create thousands of darkspawn over the course of her lifetime. Each type of darkspawn is born from a different broodmother: Humans produce hurlocks, dwarves produce genlocks, elves give birth to shrieks, and from Qunari are born the ogres."
So most women die too. One of those do the rewards out weigh the risk deals. --Maverick One (talk) 05:40, October 16, 2014 (UTC)Maverick
I thought about this a while ago. There's no reason why the women can't just kill themselves, knowing what they'd become. I can imagine that this might be hard for an ordinary woman/female soldier to do, but with how committed the Wardens are, I'd guess they'd be pretty willing to kill themselves if they got captured (even if it came down to bashing their heads in on a wall or something). The official Warden response might be to equip any female Warden with poison (maybe all female Wardens could have a poison filled fake tooth put in after their joining) before they encounter the Darkspawn. Also, even if the rewards do outweigh the risks, it's definitely a risk best avoided.--151.225.130.207 (talk) 10:22, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
Even if the entire world knew how broodmothers were made, people couldn't successfully ban every single woman from fighting or providing help, since by your logic, they'd also have to keep female healers (Magic and non-magic) away from military encampments, as well as the priestesses providing moral support. If they tried this ban, they'd have to either arrest or kill every woman with a weapon, magic, or a prayer book during a Blight (Which would only cause further problems). One mildly related example for this can be seen in Mass Effect 3, Reapers would turn dead soldiers into horrifying monsters (so they can't even kill themselves to prevent this). Humans and Batarians were made into average threats, but Asari, Turians and Krogans were made into very powerful enemies that could kill way more people than the human/batarian monsters, and everybody knew. Did the galaxy say "Sorry species that would be very helpful fighting this war, you have to impossibly flee a unrelenting force, cus if you die you'll make things worse for us"? No, they needed every soldier available, and again, when evil forces are attacking everybody, you can't tell them to do nothing. Welshman15 (talk) 11:40, October 16, 2014 (UTC)