Forum:Why?

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Hi everyone, I'm a pretty big fan of Dragon Age as we all are, or are we? I'm not gonna bash everyone about their answers to this question, but why? Specifically why all of this hate for Hawke? He is a good developed character, he IS a cliche hero but in a good way, you know? No, to those who think your just some watching bystander seeing his life, i'm sorry but i think your wrong, you do decide how people view you and you do decide many events in the story. You may not get to choose your race, but you definitely get to customize your character. His story does effect everything in the world, his story causes this huge war to ensue. People seem to have too high standards to me, Dragon Age 2 is a very good game, Dragon Age was just as repetitive if not more. Now i don't want people getting pissed off and start yelling at me, I just want a simple question answered with a simple answer that doesn't repeat all of the same arguments i've seen in the latest forums. In the other forums the people get into unnecessary heated discussions, or they get off topic. I want this forum to stay on my question, and please do not answer in some long montage of events from DA 2 and just say that it was stupid. So please tell me, why all of this pure hate for Hawke? Yes i do mean pure hate, because that is what i see. Elbryan the Nightbird (talk) 00:42, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

Spoilers. I think some people feel that we should've had more choice in terms of what transpires throughout Hawke's story. For instance, being able to save Leandra, there's no way to avoid her death, which would have a huge effect on those around her, including the character we play as, which would then have an effect on everyone around Hawke. Another, and easily the biggest one is not being able to prevent Anders from destroying the Chantry. In my first play through I chose to trust him, and was rewarded with betrayal, in my second I knew what was coming, so refused to help him when he asks you to not question why he needs you to distract the Gran Cleric, with the same result. I think it could've had much more impact if it'd been a result of helping him that it happened, then you're also to blame for it. The fact it happens regardless makes helping him or not pointless.

I'm a fan of the game, and of Hawke. I like him (never really play games as a female), I finished it before I really came on the forums and was surprised to see so many people not liking them. But hey, each to their own. There's any number of reasons people can come up with not to like a character, even for the most popular and loved. S13Kuro (talk) 00:56, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

I can accept that, although i still like Hawke(I only play as guys too). Thank you for the civil answer. 99.141.51.235 (talk) 01:21, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

Just for the sake of arguement I thought that DA2 was just like the first in terms of what you could change/coudln't change like Leandra dying, well you couldn't stop the Couslands from dying either, both would have had a huge impact on the way the characters acted and how the story plays out. Also it's impossible to stop Anders form blowing up the chantry, it's also impossible to stop Loghain from betraying Cailen at Ostagar. Also as a last point, many people are saying (or have said) how you couldn't just leave before the final battle and that Boiware forced you to chose sides, well the same can be said for DAO as in that, no matter how I felt I always had to get 4 armies, and I couldn't just leave Ferelden. Dawnofdoom999 (talk) 01:28, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

I agree on the Leandra-Couslands comparison, but the others are quite a bit different. When Anders asked for your help, that implies that your aid is necessary for his plan to work; there was absolutely nothing implied about being able to save Cailan. And as Origins stated many times, if Ferelden fell to the darkspawn, then all of Thedas would too. Leaving Kirkwall wouldn't doom the world to utter destruction. (P.S. Personally, i think the main reason people say they would've just left is because they were disappointed in the game and just wanted it to be over.) --CommanderCousland (talk) 01:41, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

There is a huge difference between the employment of the family deaths. Couslands were used as a sort of setting at the very beginning, and there was no way you could deduce what Howe was planning. Leandra comes much further in the game, and it was very clear that there was a serial killer around.Ygrain (talk) 05:19, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but Hawke could have thought that there was no real threat and may have just not told his mother. And by the time you learned of her disaperance, she was already gone. It's kinda like in real life, you may know that there's still a serial killer, but this doesn't stop you or someone you know of being killed by them. Dawnofdoom999 (talk) 22:20, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

But that's exactly the point! Are you even able to tell her? (I haven't played that far, mind you). Is there an option to warn her that there is a serial killer who goes for older women? - Yes, of course, people may still die even when warned, but if you bring the real life analogy, wouldn't you definitely tell your mother, just in case?

Besides, "Hawke could have thought" and "may not have told" - why are you interpreting what Hawke may or may not have done when these are the player's decisions? Your apologetics, in fact, perfectly pinpoints the main flaws of the game: the lack of immersion, and the lack of choice. Ygrain (talk) 04:31, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

Well no you cannot tell her. And no there is no option to tell her that there's a serial killer on the loose. The reason he may not have told her is because he could have thought he killed the killer as thats part of an earlier mission. And if I remeber correctly right after the mission about the serial killer right after that she goes missing, so there wasn't really a chance to tell her about the serial killer. There was also something like this in DAOA, why couldn't the warden send someone to warn the keep as he stays at the city? Dawnofdoom999 (talk) 05:35, June 6, 2011 (UTC)

.Ah. It was pretty obvious already in Act I that there was a serial killer out for older women, and during the following three years Hawke never found the time to tell his mother? I believe that this sort of information doesn't have to wait for the "quest done" tag.

As for the Amaranthine - Keep dilemma, the point is not that the Keep is nor warned but that the Warden is not there to lead the defence, and presumably that the Keep is undermanned, since in reality he would have taken along a part of the garrison. - Please, stop using the "...and you discriminate blacks" argumentation. Even if your points were valid, it won't make the flaws of DA2 go away. --Ygrain (talk) 07:54, June 6, 2011 (UTC)

How was it obvious? I think the only sign was the mission where you have to look for that guys wife, and in that case there was no real proof that this wasn't just some random murder. And as for act 2, as I remember you complete the mission to look for Fracois Depuis, then the mission where your mother goes missing is activated (meaning she's already gone). I'm not really trying to say that DA2 doesn't have any flaws i'm just trying to say that many of the flaws (aside from gameplay) were seen in DAO too. I'm only trying to give people a different view on DA2 or to make them hate it a little bit less. Dawnofdoom999 (talk) 16:19, June 6, 2011 (UTC)

Ok I just left a party just like this, so I'll do the old copy paste thing. " First: He/She was billed as the most important person in Thedas which he/she (as of yet) is not. Second: He/She is always gonna be human which reduces customisation. Third: Some don't like haveing a voiced PC as they feel it detaches them form what is ment to be the players body in the game world. Of course I can't and won't speek for everyone, these are just some the reasons I've been given on my own quest to understand why a lot of people don't like Hawke or at lest like him/her less that the Warden. For the record I DO like Hawke and think he/her has a lot of potential. Assuming BioWare bring him/her back for some DLC or even". So to some it up there are 3 big reasons I keep seeing pop up however I for one quite like Hawke.Andy the Black (talk) 01:52, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

Well if I do remeber correctly, Anders says that he could do this on his own but would much rather have someone he can trust on his side, plus there was no real implication pf his actions at any time. As for the leaving part, well you would doom all of Ferelden, but not all of Thedas in theory, as Alistair said the Orlisian Wardens would be able to stop them but not before they destroy all of Ferelden, It could still ahve been an option as why would all of the other characters (but the noble) really care about the fate of Ferelden, as in the other origins you were an outcast or dying while as in the noble origin you at least had other friends in Ferelden. AS for the leaving Kirkwall wouldn't doom all of Thedas, it very well could of started something, didn't Leliana say that if the mage situation fgot out of hand there would be an exhaulted march against Kirkwall? That (in my opinion) would have as much if not at least a severe impact on the other circles of magi, but that's mainly speculation. Dawnofdoom999 (talk) 02:40, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

Hmmmm, Anders may have said that, I'm not very sure as I haven't gotten around to playing through after my first time. As for the possibility of an Exhalted March, is having all the Circles rise up in rebellion and having the Templars separate themselves from the Chantry to better oppose them a better option? Mind you, the way DA2 works makes me think that would STILL have happened had you left anyways. --CommanderCousland (talk) 05:27, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

"It could still ahve been an option as why would all of the other characters (but the noble) really care about the fate of Ferelden, as in the other origins you were an outcast or dying while as in the noble origin you at least had other friends in Ferelden." I think this part reflects the great way DA:O allowed you to role-play your character. My City Elf, for example, was determined to help fight the darkspawn as she wanted to protect her fellow elves in the Alienage from further suffering. She also didn't hate humans unless they specifically hurt her or others, and was grateful for Duncan and King Cailan's politeness to her, and for the friendliness of everyone at Ostagar towards her. The idea that an outcast would not have any reason to care about the fate of Ferelden only makes sense to me if the outcast is a psychopath, or bitter and resentful to the point of almost-unbelievable dickishness. But, there were dialogue options in place to represent even that kind of character, which is something I loved about DA:O. I think the option to play as a character who just wanted to leave WAS there: you just had to stop playing the game! 86.173.175.24 (talk) 09:27, June 4, 2011 (UTC) Sophia

Yes, it does show how good the role playing is but you still had no real option to leave and then play a smaller (but different) ending. And while there were dialog options in this there were also dialog options in DA2 ton represent you not wanting to take sides, and about the option to leave Ferelden was there, well the same could be said about DA2 as you could have just turned off the game and not finished it either, kinda prooving my point that it's sad to see people complain about DA2s choices, when DAO made the same decisions. But also the exile thing, I would see and exile wanting to not help because they were forced out of there homes and so no longer feel the need to help the people that wanted them gone. Dawnofdoom999 (talk) 22:20, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

This is an old one. In Origins, you knew from the very beginning what you are supposed to do, your main objective. In DA2, the objective was never stated and you were told you could shape the world around you, only to find in the end that the seemingly endless choices are a lie. There is a huge difference if you know from the very begining that you have to act within a defined frame, or if you are given an illusion of freedom and then have it taken away. Ygrain (talk) 04:31, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

That's exactly what i was just about to put up, Anders did say he could do it alone but wanted someone he could trust to help him. 99.141.51.235 (talk) 03:27, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

As I have said before, I do not _hate_ Hawke. I just feel indifferent towards her, since they way the prologue and the family interaction was handled, gave me nothing to build any relationship on or to somehow determine my goals. The same applies to the companions. With the exception of Varric and probably Aveline, they do not feel like real people, since their background stories are heavily overdone, and I can't relate to them in the way I did to Alistair or Morrigan - the lack of chances to talk certainly doesn't help. There is very little attention paid to immersion in the mage playthrough (see my thread Forum: Being An Apostate In Kirkwall), leading to illogical situations which manage to piss me every now and then, just about whenever I'm finally starting to enjoy myself a little. All in all, my issues are with the game, not Hawke - and yes, I do have high standards. With the precious little time I can devote to playing, I can't afford to waste it on mediocre games. Were it not DA, I would already have stopped playing. Ygrain (talk) 05:19, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I don't hate any of my Hawkes. They're alright dudes, although No.1 a bit goofy and No.2 a bit stupid. Now, that bearded unwashed poser whose shenanigans I had to suffer before I started my games, the one doing overblown things in overblown trailer, him I cannot stand, true. But that's just because I'm allergic to PR hype bullshit. Dorquemada (talk) 07:27, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

Why? Why do you want a special answer? There are already pages filled with arguments why people despise Hawke. If you don't want arguments, what then? Do you want us all to admit that we actually only hate Hawke because of his beard or something? If you don't want us to repeat our answers, why are you repeating the same old questions? It doesn't make any sense. I can't do anything but repeat the points that have been said too often already, noone can give you a "special secret" reason why Hawke is being hated on that somehow explains that you are right and we are all wrong, if that's what you want. Lemonaidz (talk) 10:05, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

Lemonaidz! What the hell are you doing?! Don't reveal the fact that there IS a "special secret" to why we all hate Hawke! The OP is a Hawke lover and, therefore, ineligible to receive the "special secret to why we all hate Hawke"!

OP, our reasons are merely generic. No "special secret" exists. Carry on. Quirkynature (talk) 13:14, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

@ComanderCousland That's what I was trying to get at in a way just my writing may have not been best suited to show that. Dawnofdoom999 (talk) 22:20, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

Which part? The whole "it would have happened even if you left" bit? Because that makes it completely different than DA:O. Now that I think about it, would it be reasonable to say that if the Warden had just left, the events of the Darkspawn Chronicles would have occurred? --CommanderCousland (talk) 22:29, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but in DAO Alistair said that the other countrys could still stop the blight even if Ferelden is destroyed. But as I said in a way in my earlier posts, even had Hawke left before the final battle or even had he not been there the events would have probably still played out kinda the same in a way. Dawnofdoom999 (talk) 23:57, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

"Some don't like haveing a voiced PC as they feel it detaches them form what is ment to be the players body in the game world." That's the issue. If you want your RPG character to just you dressed up like a dwarf with darkspawn radar, then you'll hate Hawke. If you actually want to--God forbid!--play as a character in a-ahem- ROLE PLAYING GAME, then you'll like Hawke since he has something to him.

When people whine about not playing as the Warden (the fucking warden!? Who has zero identifiable traits!) they're just complaining about not being able to play their wet-dream version of themselves.141.218.229.46 (talk) 03:13, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

Wow. Role-playing redefined! Do continue, enlighten us what it means to role-play, some of us have spent only an entire lifetime doing that. Ygrain (talk) 04:31, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

"If you actually want to--God Forbid--play as a character in a role-playing game" as you define it, you'd likely end up cos-playing at a convention somewhere. That's why we like Fantasy Role Playing Games, Because we can't get dressed up as a dwarf with darkspawn radar in real life, that's why we play video games, not dance around a campfire dressed as elves in someones back garden. Vide-games, particularly role playing video games, are designed to give a normal person a fun, unrealistic journey through a world that someone else has created for that express purpose.NegativeCity (talk) 06:24, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

Nah, by his definition every game with a protagonist is a roleplaying game. Including Halo and Duke Nukem. You are playing a character, ain't ya? RPG it is! Dorquemada (talk) 07:35, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

You're overlooking the pioneering cross-over RPG elements and character customization in Mega Man. User:Futonrevoltion

No, you guys, Hawke is like the most rpg character ever, you even get funny pictures whenever you're asked for your opinion. Lemonaidz (talk) 08:08, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

It's not that I hate Hawke, but rather that I am very dissapointed in the game as a whole. Oh, and I feel like Hawke is just some character I have been given to play rather than making my own, unlike the Warden in DA:O which I felt like I made.--Tommtho (talk) 06:22, June 6, 2011 (UTC)

I get the feeling a lot of the "hate" is only directed at Hakwe because he's the face of Dragon Age 2, which by most accounts is an inferior game to Dragon Age: Origins. While she is certainly still a customizable character, he still comes with a lot of baggage normally associated with an NPC. She has a family that's core to much of the early story. He has a unique voice only for her that you can't choose, or un-choose as it were. Her goals seem to be set by the game and not the player, which while true for most any game protagonist, becomes a point of particular frustration when one considers that Hawke's reasons for staying the course aren't necessarily consistent with the way they've been playing.

That said, another reason that seems to be prevalent in what I've read here is that people just aren't all that impressed with what he accomplishes when compared to the Warden. In the course of a year alone the Warden can potentially: Break a lycantropic curse that has been present for a few centuries. Discover the location and choose the fate of a holy relic that has be lost since the "fall" of the Imperium. Slay a High Dragon. Slay the Witch of the Wilds. Slay an homage to Baldur's Gate 2. Reclaim an old Warden Stronghold and learn it's lost history. Choose how one of only two remaining Dwarven kingdoms will be run for perhaps generations to come. Uncover the location of another centuries old relic and choose it's fate as well. Successfully exorcise a demon. Unite a kingdom at war. Slay an Archdemon and survive said slaying despite the fact that all Wardens before have died from such an act. Stop A Blight before it can even claim the country it started in, making it the shortest one ever! Become Loved by everyone everywhere forever, unless they're an obvious bad guy like disgruntled nobles or a crazy brood mother.

In 7 years Hawke can: Discover an Ancient Thaig deeper in the earth than anyone in recent history has gone. Slay a High Dragon. Un-Slay the Witch of the Wilds. Slay some allegedly old and powerful Demons (Xenebeck & Hybris). Reclaim a Mansion with sentimental history for your mother. Become an unknowing accessory to Domestic Terrorism. Save a City State from some Qunari. Slay the Arishok in single combat. Walk away from a major world shattering conflict before it really begins. Become loved by some for the role you played in the aforementioned conflict, and presumably hated by everyone else.

tl;dr: The Warden would be a Mary Sue in any other medium for story-telling but is loved because he/she is essentially you. Hawke is seen as Hawke and not you, and because she is the Sheperd-like protagonist in a rushed not-as-good-as-origins sequel he gets to be the focal point for all the dissatisfaction for the game. Maybe not by everyone, but certainly by many. That's my take on it anyway.--174.3.126.170 (talk) 08:53, June 6, 2011 (UTC)

Let's face it, in the context of the way we're able to play him/her, Hawke is a bit of a derp. He surrounds himself with dangerously unstable cretins like Anders and Isabella, fails to recognize or do anything about the fact that his mother is being targeted by a dangerous serial kidnapper and murderer. And when it finally becomes time for the Chantry to explode, Hawke will round on Anders with absolute shock and disbelief despite the fact Anders couldn't have made it any more obvious he was up to no good. If Hawke weren't such a derp (or the game not being so restrictive) all of the stupidity we're forced to endure because of this character's inability to recognize what's going on in the world around him could have been remedied. Hawke's not alone in this though, pretty much everyone in the game is a derp.

Isabella runs off with a Qunari relic, then comes back at the last minute to give it back... "Har har! I am back to save teh day HAwkes! You have tome back now!" "WTF!? PEOPLE ARE DEAD NOW BECAUSE YOU RAN OFF WITH THAT BLOODY THING IN THE FIRST PLACE!" And yet she still manages to act outraged when I hand her over to the Arishok...

Do I need to get into how big a pair of derps Anders and Merril are?

Honestly, I had expected Fenris and Sebastian to be my least favourite characters, but their derpishness is much milder and makes me like them more than Hawke or any of the other companions. Except Aveline and Varric, who are apparently the only sane people left in the whole city.

And I'm done... Michael Largness (talk) 09:46, June 6, 2011 (UTC)

Don't forget the city government that couldn't run a lemonade stand and emo Arishok who would need six-month pre-orders to get the lemonade made (and, even then, it'd be a poverty pop covered in lemon skin). User:Futonrevoltion

Totally. I mean, how hard can it be to make Kirkwall crime-free?!!! If the bad guys aren't in the abandoned warehouse, they're in some alley at the Docks. If not, they're at the sewers beneath Darktown. Of course, if they're hiding in some caves outside Kirkwall that smells suspiciously like dragon dung, best to leave them alone. The problem'll prolly take care of itself. :P --Flemeth's Broomstick (talk) 16:57, June 6, 2011 (UTC)

I don't hate Hawke. I'm totally indifferent towards him/her. And that's the problem, really. This isn't my character the way the Warden is. I don't care about Hawke or his/her story. I spent the whole game figuring out what my Warden would think of this or that piece of information or how would she react to a particular event. Durwen (talk) 22:01, June 6, 2011 (UTC)