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However bad the Chantry is, however bad Tevinter is, the Qunari are a thousand times worse.

In the Chantry, mages are dehumanized and imprisoned for their entire lives. In Tevinter, mages make deals with demons and perform human sacrfices, using slaves they stole from free countries. In the Qun everyone is a slave. Perhaps that is more ethical - freedom for none is at least equal treatment for all. And if every person in Thedas followed the Qun, there might actually be peace (the Tal-Vashoth suggest otherwise, though). But that comes at the cost of freedom, identity, family, love...everything that makes life worth living is lost in the Qun in order to achieve peace. I think that makes the Qun the most abhorrent religion in Thedas. Even people who worship demons or dragons do not require that everyone follow all of their rules all of the time in order to maintain a fragile system built to maintain peace.

It's like you are asking "If we raise the militery to control, will it be ok?"Hmmm...To that I have to say: Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad Idea!Historically proven. Emilia Da'len (talk) 01:06, June 15, 2014 (UTC)

But clearly many think otherwise, as the Qunari gain plenty of converts even without using coercion. The people of Thedas do not have all of the information or the objectivity that we do, however. So what do you think? Do you see the Qun as a viable solution to the horror and suffering of life in Thedas, one equal to or greater than the Chantry or the Imperium? Or do you agree that the Qun demands for too high a price for something that cannot even be enjoyed once it is attained? Silver Warden (talk) 04:01, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

The qun is the only religion, real or otherwise, that I have ever seen give purpose. I don't exactly care about freedom, especially since equality doesn't and never will exist. Honestly, it doesn't take that much individuality out, either. Sten is clearly his own man. Iron Bull is his, and will just be reeducated and go off willy nilly again. You have your purpose, you do your job. That's all we know. I would be perfectly content in that, actually, and would time travel to the origins of man and implement the "qun" if I could.

I imagine they have duties outside of their purpose, and even socialize. They clearly due, actually, given Sten is linked closely to his comrades who were slain by the darkspawn. I just imagine that Sten is unwilling to forfeit duty, just like the ones at Kirkwall, for the sake of it. Qunari always have something to do, always have purpose that they will undoubtedly do well. The Chantry is far worse, any religion I've ever seen is worse, because it claims they actually know anything. The qun doesn't make these claims, it just knows what it does well, and gives purpose. No other religion can give you purpose.

In the end we don’t know enough, but based on Sten, the qun is not what the Tal’Vasoth makes it out to be. I believe Vasoth just wished for power, or more duty, or less; basically they were weak. The qun demands the best, and if they were, they would have the things they want. -- (talk) 04:57, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

What I can appreciate about the Qun unlike Chantry, is the lack of discrimination and the fact that anybody, regardlesss of race has the potential to become a leader, not just Qunari/Kossith. I see the Qun as something with equal opportunity.-- (talk) 05:18, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

they discriminate the worst (as I know) against mages or sarebaas as I might say.--Iddawiki (talk) 05:25, June 14, 2014 (UTC)
Still better than the circle, if you ask me/ Sarebass have purpose. I also recall the sarebass fully accepting their ways, but there must be some who resent it. However, at the same time, I can't see myself allowing genocide of any kind. It's best they get fair treatment, but they need to be watched over. I like the circle, sarevbass and tranquil are going too far, but mages should be allowed to conduct themselves how they want, but still have a phylactery just in case, and have weekly to monthly checkups.-- (talk) 06:11, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I can't really say the Qun as a "religion", they don't worship anything (as far as I know). to me, the Qun is more like a "a way" of live. note that the qun doesn't force anyone and give preach to "convert" to their way of life. They Qun is found by Koslun, a kossith philosopher who think that it is what life should be.

regarding the Qun is "good" or "bad", you can find both answer from a different people as "good" or "bad" is a matter of perspective. The Qunari will say their way of life is the right one, while they see others as a foolish people without purpose in their life. The people outside the Qun will say the Qun as monster that threatening their "way of life". After all, majority of people scared to what they don't understand.--Iddawiki (talk) 05:23, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

" note that the qun doesn't force anyone and give preach to "convert" to their way of life." Umm...yes they do. Remember how they tried to force Isabella to convert? They have an entire poison designed for that very purpose. (talk) 00:50, June 15, 2014 (UTC)
Well, it's clearly not a religion, more of a following, or lifetsyle as you said. I only said it was so with the lack of a better term. Any who see Qunari as having no prpose would probably be blind -- (talk) 05:50, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

Good and bad don't have anything to do with it. The Chantry says "Killing is bad and peace is good, because the Maker said so". The Qun says "Killing is bad because it wastes a potentially useful person. However, sometimes the situation doesn't leave you an option. Peace is good because it promotes growth and prosperity, but struggle is necessary to mature as a person". Trying to judge one of those by the standards of the other (even if you leave out the political fact that they hate each other) will always give you an invalid result.

That said, I think it's safe to say that the Qun works better than the rest of Thedosian society. If it didn't, it would be much easier to make them go away. The people under it seem fairly happy, with relatively rare and very visible exceptions. At its base, you're asking whether living in medieval Europe is better or worse than... I can't think of a good analogue for the Qunari. The Iroquois, maybe? The point being, they are fundamentally different in how just about everything in their respective cultures works. You could argue their respective merits all day and never get anywhere, because the answer depends on the situation and the answerer's personal preferences. -- (talk) 06:16, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

I agree that it does depend on the situaton like Kirkwall for example. It can agreed upon that it was a terrible place to live if you didn't have money, filled with crime, underground slavery, and corruption. Kirkwall gave many reasons to convert the Qun, and what I find funny is that the Qunari weren't even actively looking for converts at the moment yet people were flocking to them.-- (talk) 06:34, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

as I was saying before, the Qun doesn't look for "convert" and doesn't really care about those who abandon the Qun (they pity them instead) because it is not really religion. The Qun roughly just said "here's my way of life, you can embrace it and follow it if it suit you, and if you don't, you just a fool creature without purpose and I pity you".--Iddawiki (talk) 07:33, June 14, 2014 (UTC)
Really? You really think the Qunari don't force converts? Did you even play DA 2? What happens at the end of Act 2 is what the Qunari intended to do to all of Thedas. They haven't done so yet because they currently lack the power, but as the dying Arishok says: "one day they (we) will return". The Qun is far worse than the Chantry in that respect. The Chantry forces people to worship the Maker, but that's it. The Qunari force everyone to completely submit every aspect of their lives to the Qun. And they do so with both extreme violence and brainwashing. Oh, and drugs. Qunari basically turn people who absolutely refuse to submit to the Qun into mindless husks using a drug called qamek, sort of like making non-mages tranquil, only worse. Forced converts have their families torn apart - children are taken from their parents to be 'educated' (brainwashed).
The Qunari themselves are at peace because they know nothing else. But when their culture encounters other possibilities, some rebel and become Tal-Vashoth. The Tal-Vashoth we have seen in game are mostly murderous marauders because they are former military, and killing is what they know. However even if all Qunari were to become Tal-Vashoth, they'd still be better than followers of the Qun. Killing is one thing, but to utterly decimate a society, to brainwash children and basically lobotomize those who resist them? That is worse than death, worse than murder, worse even than torture. Most mages would rather die than be made Tranquil. That is what the Qun does to people, even without qamek. People lose their names. There's no concept of an individual among the Qunari, everyone is just a piece of a larger society. Koslun was inspired by a plague of locusts, and the Qunari society is based on that concept. I think that pretty much says it all. Silver Warden (talk) 20:05, June 14, 2014 (UTC)
wow wow, easy there big guy. it is clear that you want to see Qunari as the Andraste's follower. to tell you the truth, I did play DA2 several playthrought but if you try to see things in the side of the Qun, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying that they (the Qun) do that to others simply because (in their mind) they want to help others (because they pity the others) by giving them a purpose to their life. Just like Chantry preaching about Andraste. and yes, I have to admit it, in the eyes of us, who live in relatively comfortable life, the way of the Qun seems a bit harsh, but to the Qunari, it is normal. I'm just stating an answer to the original question. The Qun can be good or bad, depend on who's the one that sees it.
if you want to compare the Qun to Andraste's Chantry in a matter of following its "prophet's teaching" (Koslun and Andraste), I would say that the Qun is better because all of them is following Koslun's teaching, regardless "good" or "bad" they might be in common's eye. you cant say that to Andraste's follower, even Sebastian admit this "I wonder if there's something we can learn from the Qunari. Have you seen how loyal they are? Even the least member has the faith of a dedicated brother."--Iddawiki (talk) 21:15, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

The qun is always better than the chantry or any other power. You can't see it depends on the situation, becuase that isn't how it works. One way or another, the Qunari are almost always right, with few exceptions. Those exceptions will likely be looked after, too. The qun covers all, an anything the qunari haven't faced is investigated so the qun can cover it. The qun is many ways is logic above all else. -- (talk) 07:22, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

It's a religion/philosophy. It helps some people get through life, but it also makes some other people's lives harder. Which is a quality not exclusive to religion, I might add. It's neither good or bad. 11:15, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, let me clear up two things: first, I called the Qun a religion for lack of a better term. The Qunari don't really "worship" anything, so it's not a religion in that sense, but following the Qun is much more involved than following any given philosophy. Hell, it's more involved than following any given religion. It says nothing about gods or the afterlife, sure, but in every other sense the Qunari are way more "religious" than those who believe in the Maker. The Qun dominates every aspect of their lives. Maker-worshipers go to church and pray. The Qun is much more than just a religion, but there's no stronger word to describe it, so I go with "religion". FYI, it is referred to as a religion in game.

Secondly, I do not mean good or bad in terms of correct or incorrect, or in terms of relative morality. I mean is it better for overall humanity (and elvity, and dwarfity, and Qunarity) to lose everything in the name of peace and "purpose" or accept life as it is, with both its negatives and positives, to live naturally and embrace the chaos inherent in life. The Qun destroys life in a much deeper sense than just slaughtering non-believers. It's believers are more dead than alive, they lack choice, they lack identity, they lack hopes and dreams, they lack love, they lack any meaning beyond performing the task they were assigned to perform. People are not insects. We do not belong in a hive with one purpose, one goal, and one mind. That is what the darkspawn are. The Qun is only better than the Taint in that it does not also destroy the land and wildlife. Silver Warden (talk) 20:25, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

To start off, I'd like to disagree with your "they lack choice, they lack identity, they lack hopes and dreams, they lack love, they lack any meaning beyond performing the task they were assigned to perform" comment. They have choice. They have the only important choice: they can be who and what they are, or they can die. It's not a matter of "what if you don't like your role", either. If you were specifically bred by the Tamassrans to grow wheat or make shoes or fight, and your entire childhood consisted of learning about crop rotation or leather-shaping or sword techniques, you would want to be a farmer or a cobbler or a soldier. It is literally all you know how to be. Don't like being in a low position? Then practice up, get better, and prove you can serve better if they promoted you. Despite all that, don't like your role anyway? Then prove that, if you were given time to focus your efforts on the perfection of cookie production, you could improve Qunari society so much more than you ever could as a soldier.
All that said, if I'm reading your explanation of the original question correctly, is it better or worse for the world than the alternatives? As I said before, the only answer you can honestly give is "None of the above". The society works. The people in it are content. They've made much greater advances in science than anyone else we've seen in Thedas. At the same time, yes, it is oppressive if you don't cooperate. It is brutal (but not cruel or spiteful) towards things that oppose its own interest. Personally, I think its benefits outweigh the costs. Others may disagree, and they are equally correct, because, lacking as much information as we do about how any part of it other than the Antaam operates, we just can't make a call on whether it, which is where most people would end up being, is worth it. -- (talk) 23:41, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

While the the Qun may have it flaws, i feel it is best for everyone. Just because you lose most of your rights, it doesn't mean you have lost everything. You can request to be reeducated if you are unsatisfied with your job. You are still allowed to voice your opinions. You can even leave the Qun and it's not like they will hunt you down if you leave, It's seen as your loss if you choose to leave.I don't see why some detest the Qun so much as if they enslave people who join.The Chantry however has proven itself to be pretty restricting and discriminatory towards elves if I'm correct.-- (talk) 23:16, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

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