Forum:The Qun - good or bad?

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However bad the Chantry is, however bad Tevinter is, the Qunari are a thousand times worse.

In the Chantry, mages are dehumanized and imprisoned for their entire lives. In Tevinter, mages make deals with demons and perform human sacrfices, using slaves they stole from free countries. In the Qun everyone is a slave. Perhaps that is more ethical - freedom for none is at least equal treatment for all. And if every person in Thedas followed the Qun, there might actually be peace (the Tal-Vashoth suggest otherwise, though). But that comes at the cost of freedom, identity, family, love...everything that makes life worth living is lost in the Qun in order to achieve peace. I think that makes the Qun the most abhorrent religion in Thedas. Even people who worship demons or dragons do not require that everyone follow all of their rules all of the time in order to maintain a fragile system built to maintain peace.

But clearly many think otherwise, as the Qunari gain plenty of converts even without using coercion. The people of Thedas do not have all of the information or the objectivity that we do, however. So what do you think? Do you see the Qun as a viable solution to the horror and suffering of life in Thedas, one equal to or greater than the Chantry or the Imperium? Or do you agree that the Qun demands for too high a price for something that cannot even be enjoyed once it is attained? Silver Warden (talk) 04:01, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

The qun is the only religion, real or otherwise, that I have ever seen give purpose. I don't exactly care about freedom, especially since equality doesn't and never will exist. Honestly, it doesn't take that much individuality out, either. Sten is clearly his own man. Iron Bull is his, and will just be reeducated and go off willy nilly again. You have your purpose, you do your job. That's all we know. I would be perfectly content in that, actually, and would time travel to the origins of man and implement the "qun" if I could.

I imagine they have duties outside of their purpose, and even socialize. They clearly due, actually, given Sten is linked closely to his comrades who were slain by the darkspawn. I just imagine that Sten is unwilling to forfeit duty, just like the ones at Kirkwall, for the sake of it. Qunari always have something to do, always have purpose that they will undoubtedly do well. The Chantry is far worse, any religion I've ever seen is worse, because it claims they actually know anything. The qun doesn't make these claims, it just knows what it does well, and gives purpose. No other religion can give you purpose.

In the end we don’t know enough, but based on Sten, the qun is not what the Tal’Vasoth makes it out to be. I believe Vasoth just wished for power, or more duty, or less; basically they were weak. The qun demands the best, and if they were, they would have the things they want. --69.144.236.42 (talk) 04:57, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

What I can appreciate about the Qun unlike Chantry, is the lack of discrimination and the fact that anybody, regardlesss of race has the potential to become a leader, not just Qunari/Kossith. I see the Qun as something with equal opportunity.--76.90.195.158 (talk) 05:18, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

they discriminate the worst (as I know) against mages or sarebaas as I might say.--Iddawiki (talk) 05:25, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

Still better than the circle, if you ask me/ Sarebass have purpose. I also recall the sarebass fully accepting their ways, but there must be some who resent it. However, at the same time, I can't see myself allowing genocide of any kind. It's best they get fair treatment, but they need to be watched over. I like the circle, sarevbass and tranquil are going too far, but mages should be allowed to conduct themselves how they want, but still have a phylactery just in case, and have weekly to monthly checkups.--69.144.236.42 (talk) 06:11, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

Saarbaas have their tongues cut out, and I believe it's mentioned that their eyes are stitched shut (I might be getting confused with another series with the eyes though). A number of mages in Origins, Awakening and DA2 mention that as bad as being the Circle can be, its worse in the Qun. Even some of Sten's comments in Origins lean towards the idea that mages aren't people, only tools to be used.

With regards to the original question, I believe that the Qun is just as bad as the Chantry and the Magisters of the old Imperium. With "re-education camps" for people who persistently refuse to submit to the Qun and the belief that people belong in roles set for them at birth. Any philosophy that does not allow for change cannot permit others to make their own decisions, it despises that. The Qun, from my perspective, is a force of evil, unless it is willing to accept change beyond it's own beliefs. --Madasamadthing (talk) 01:15, June 15, 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I can't really say the Qun as a "religion", they don't worship anything (as far as I know). to me, the Qun is more like a "a way" of live. note that the qun doesn't force anyone and give preach to "convert" to their way of life. They Qun is found by Koslun, a kossith philosopher who think that it is what life should be.

regarding the Qun is "good" or "bad", you can find both answer from a different people as "good" or "bad" is a matter of perspective. The Qunari will say their way of life is the right one, while they see others as a foolish people without purpose in their life. The people outside the Qun will say the Qun as monster that threatening their "way of life". After all, majority of people scared to what they don't understand.--Iddawiki (talk) 05:23, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

" note that the qun doesn't force anyone and give preach to "convert" to their way of life." Umm...yes they do. Remember how they tried to force Isabella to convert? They have an entire poison designed for that very purpose. 67.61.234.198 (talk) 00:50, June 15, 2014 (UTC)

Well they had sufficient reason i mean she stole the Tome of Koslun and all of that.They could have easily killed her right off when they captured her, Alistair, and Varric note how they didn't try and force either Alistair or Varric to convert they only force it when there they have to such as with the Arishok and Kirkwall shit just got compounded on top of shit that the ordered Qunari could not ignore any longer so the Arishok had to enforce his duty to the Qun. WardenMaster (talk) 01:14, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

Well, it's clearly not a religion, more of a following, or lifetsyle as you said. I only said it was so with the lack of a better term. Any who see Qunari as having no prpose would probably be blind --69.144.236.42 (talk) 05:50, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

A religion doesn't have to worship a higher power in order to be a religion. There are a such thing as atheistic religions such as Buddhism. NutMeg29 (talk) 02:30, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

Good and bad don't have anything to do with it. The Chantry says "Killing is bad and peace is good, because the Maker said so". The Qun says "Killing is bad because it wastes a potentially useful person. However, sometimes the situation doesn't leave you an option. Peace is good because it promotes growth and prosperity, but struggle is necessary to mature as a person". Trying to judge one of those by the standards of the other (even if you leave out the political fact that they hate each other) will always give you an invalid result.

That said, I think it's safe to say that the Qun works better than the rest of Thedosian society. If it didn't, it would be much easier to make them go away. The people under it seem fairly happy, with relatively rare and very visible exceptions. At its base, you're asking whether living in medieval Europe is better or worse than... I can't think of a good analogue for the Qunari. The Iroquois, maybe? The point being, they are fundamentally different in how just about everything in their respective cultures works. You could argue their respective merits all day and never get anywhere, because the answer depends on the situation and the answerer's personal preferences. --173.66.179.36 (talk) 06:16, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

I agree that it does depend on the situaton like Kirkwall for example. It can agreed upon that it was a terrible place to live if you didn't have money, filled with crime, underground slavery, and corruption. Kirkwall gave many reasons to convert the Qun, and what I find funny is that the Qunari weren't even actively looking for converts at the moment yet people were flocking to them.--76.90.195.158 (talk) 06:34, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

as I was saying before, the Qun doesn't look for "convert" and doesn't really care about those who abandon the Qun (they pity them instead) because it is not really religion. The Qun roughly just said "here's my way of life, you can embrace it and follow it if it suit you, and if you don't, you just a fool creature without purpose and I pity you".--Iddawiki (talk) 07:33, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

Really? You really think the Qunari don't force converts? Did you even play DA 2? What happens at the end of Act 2 is what the Qunari intended to do to all of Thedas. They haven't done so yet because they currently lack the power, but as the dying Arishok says: "one day they (we) will return". The Qun is far worse than the Chantry in that respect. The Chantry forces people to worship the Maker, but that's it. The Qunari force everyone to completely submit every aspect of their lives to the Qun. And they do so with both extreme violence and brainwashing. Oh, and drugs. Qunari basically turn people who absolutely refuse to submit to the Qun into mindless husks using a drug called qamek, sort of like making non-mages tranquil, only worse. Forced converts have their families torn apart - children are taken from their parents to be 'educated' (brainwashed).

The Qunari themselves are at peace because they know nothing else. But when their culture encounters other possibilities, some rebel and become Tal-Vashoth. The Tal-Vashoth we have seen in game are mostly murderous marauders because they are former military, and killing is what they know. However even if all Qunari were to become Tal-Vashoth, they'd still be better than followers of the Qun. Killing is one thing, but to utterly decimate a society, to brainwash children and basically lobotomize those who resist them? That is worse than death, worse than murder, worse even than torture. Most mages would rather die than be made Tranquil. That is what the Qun does to people, even without qamek. People lose their names. There's no concept of an individual among the Qunari, everyone is just a piece of a larger society. Koslun was inspired by a plague of locusts, and the Qunari society is based on that concept. I think that pretty much says it all. Silver Warden (talk) 20:05, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

wow wow, easy there big guy. it is clear that you want to see Qunari as the Andraste's follower. to tell you the truth, I did play DA2 several playthrought but if you try to see things in the side of the Qun, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying that they (the Qun) do that to others simply because (in their mind) they want to help others (because they pity the others) by giving them a purpose to their life. Just like Chantry preaching about Andraste. and yes, I have to admit it, in the eyes of us, who live in relatively comfortable life, the way of the Qun seems a bit harsh, but to the Qunari, it is normal. I'm just stating an answer to the original question. The Qun can be good or bad, depend on who's the one that sees it.

if you want to compare the Qun to Andraste's Chantry in a matter of following its "prophet's teaching" (Koslun and Andraste), I would say that the Qun is better because all of them is following Koslun's teaching, regardless "good" or "bad" they might be in common's eye. you cant say that to Andraste's follower, even Sebastian admit this "I wonder if there's something we can learn from the Qunari. Have you seen how loyal they are? Even the least member has the faith of a dedicated brother."--Iddawiki (talk) 21:15, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

I see the Qunari as an objective observer who exists outside of the Dragon Age universe. The Chantry is incredibly repressive and flawed as well. The Qun is just far worse. I imagine what would it be like if those religions were real, if I encountered those societies in real life. I could deal with Maker-worshipers. I'd find them annoying, ignorant, condensing, racist, oppressive, intolerant, and in many cases boring. But I could deal with them, I could communicate with members of that society. If the Qun actually existed I'd want to stay as far away from it as possible. If I were forced to choose, I would pick life under the rule of the Chantry, because the Chantry's rule is far weaker than the Qun's. I wouldn't want to become a simple job title, and I have a hard time imagining anyone would unless they were raised to think that way. Silver Warden (talk) 03:15, June 15, 2014 (UTC)

The qun is always better than the chantry or any other power. You can't see it depends on the situation, becuase that isn't how it works. One way or another, the Qunari are almost always right, with few exceptions. Those exceptions will likely be looked after, too. The qun covers all, an anything the qunari haven't faced is investigated so the qun can cover it. The qun is many ways is logic above all else. --69.144.236.42 (talk) 07:22, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

It's a religion/philosophy. It helps some people get through life, but it also makes some other people's lives harder. Which is a quality not exclusive to religion, I might add. It's neither good or bad. 11:15, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, let me clear up two things: first, I called the Qun a religion for lack of a better term. The Qunari don't really "worship" anything, so it's not a religion in that sense, but following the Qun is much more involved than following any given philosophy. Hell, it's more involved than following any given religion. It says nothing about gods or the afterlife, sure, but in every other sense the Qunari are way more "religious" than those who believe in the Maker. The Qun dominates every aspect of their lives. Maker-worshipers go to church and pray. The Qun is much more than just a religion, but there's no stronger word to describe it, so I go with "religion". FYI, it is referred to as a religion in game.

Secondly, I do not mean good or bad in terms of correct or incorrect, or in terms of relative morality. I mean is it better for overall humanity (and elvity, and dwarfity, and Qunarity) to lose everything in the name of peace and "purpose" or accept life as it is, with both its negatives and positives, to live naturally and embrace the chaos inherent in life. The Qun destroys life in a much deeper sense than just slaughtering non-believers. It's believers are more dead than alive, they lack choice, they lack identity, they lack hopes and dreams, they lack love, they lack any meaning beyond performing the task they were assigned to perform. People are not insects. We do not belong in a hive with one purpose, one goal, and one mind. That is what the darkspawn are. The Qun is only better than the Taint in that it does not also destroy the land and wildlife. Silver Warden (talk) 20:25, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

To start off, I'd like to disagree with your "they lack choice, they lack identity, they lack hopes and dreams, they lack love, they lack any meaning beyond performing the task they were assigned to perform" comment. They have choice. They have the only important choice: they can be who and what they are, or they can die. It's not a matter of "what if you don't like your role", either. If you were specifically bred by the Tamassrans to grow wheat or make shoes or fight, and your entire childhood consisted of learning about crop rotation or leather-shaping or sword techniques, you would want to be a farmer or a cobbler or a soldier. It is literally all you know how to be. Don't like being in a low position? Then practice up, get better, and prove you can serve better if they promoted you. Despite all that, don't like your role anyway? Then prove that, if you were given time to focus your efforts on the perfection of cookie production, you could improve Qunari society so much more than you ever could as a soldier.

All that said, if I'm reading your explanation of the original question correctly, is it better or worse for the world than the alternatives? As I said before, the only answer you can honestly give is "None of the above". The society works. The people in it are content. They've made much greater advances in science than anyone else we've seen in Thedas. At the same time, yes, it is oppressive if you don't cooperate. It is brutal (but not cruel or spiteful) towards things that oppose its own interest. Personally, I think its benefits outweigh the costs. Others may disagree, and they are equally correct, because, lacking as much information as we do about how any part of it other than the Antaam operates, we just can't make a call on whether it, which is where most people would end up being, is worth it. --173.66.179.36 (talk) 23:41, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

While the the Qun may have it flaws, i feel it is best for everyone. Just because you lose most of your rights, it doesn't mean you have lost everything. You can request to be reeducated if you are unsatisfied with your job. You are still allowed to voice your opinions. You can even leave the Qun and it's not like they will hunt you down if you leave, It's seen as your loss if you choose to leave.I don't see why some detest the Qun so much as if they enslave people who join.The Chantry however has proven itself to be pretty restricting and discriminatory towards elves if I'm correct.--76.90.195.158 (talk) 23:16, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

Live by the Qun or die is not much of a choice. You may as well say that a person raped at gunpoint "chose" to have sex. I don't believe Qunari can switch their roles. Get promoted, yes, but Qunari who do not like their roles leave and are hunted to the death for it. Again, not much of a choice.

The Qunari are more scientifically advanced because they do not rely on magic. This happens all the time in fantasy settings, where non magic using cultures are more technologically advanced then their counterparts. The dwarves are better engineers and inventors than humans and elves for the same reason. The Qunari have more advanced medical knowledge because they do not rely on magical healing. This all stems from their fear of magic, which exists in part because they are afraid of disorder, but also because they are afraid of individuality. Magic can make a single person very powerful, and that threatens the very bedrock of their society - that the whole is stronger than the some of its parts. That is a monstrous notion, if you consider that people are the parts of a society. Nothing should be more important than any given individual, yet among the Qunari individuals are just husks that exist to perform a task for the society. Silver Warden (talk) 00:49, June 17, 2014 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, Sten or the Arishok once said that if a warrior stranded on an island, if that person will choose he will choose to be stranded than to make ship because if he do then he will become a shipbuilder too.180.191.36.17 (talk) 03:42, June 15, 2014 (UTC)

That's because neither of them has a concept of an individual. According to Sten, a woman can't be a warrior. If a female fights, she is not female. That is utter nonsense. If a warrior builds a raft, then he has become a ship-builder. If he fights again, than he has become a warrior again. The Qun doesn't allow for anything other than perfect order, and that results in removing the concept of identity, turning people into machines that perform tasks. Why so many people don't recognize the horror that is implicit in that concept, I just don't understand. Silver Warden (talk) 00:21, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

Becuase that doesn't bother us. It is purpose. It is order. --69.144.236.42 (talk) 00:45, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

It's like you are asking "If we raise the militery to control, will it be ok?"Hmmm...To that I have to say: Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad Idea!Historically proven. Emilia Da'len (talk) 01:06, June 15, 2014 (UTC)

Almost everything I see of the qun I agree with. The page here even says that Qunari have friends and lovers (not sexual), and those that submitted to the qun enjoyed life immensely. People who don't believe in religion but submit to it hate life. The Qun doesn't lie; it's not what I would call evil at all. It's a lawful neutral that can turn into a war machine; for the sole purpose of peace and order. Alos, it is not a military, it has a military, but no way is the military it's main purpose. It is only equal.--69.144.236.42 (talk) 05:37, June 15, 2014 (UTC)

It is certainly easier to enjoy life "immensely" when someone else has planed out your entire life, leaving you in blissful ignorance. I wouldn't say the Qun is at all looking for peace, they're looking for dominance. People seeking peace do not build warships and then conquer others, they build large walls, carry shields and promote non-aggression and stability. While I agree there are probably farmers and such who have submitted willingly to the Qun who are happy, the same could be said of the common farmer in Ferelden who believes in Andraste. The qun didn't give them their happiness, it just allowed them to continue to do what they were already doing. but for anyone else seeking to be more then just a cog that doesn't ask questions the Qun is very limiting. Like Friendlysociopath below me states, it's failure and outright refusal to adapt will be it's own undoing. I'd also like to mention the idea of promotions were only introduced to cover plot holes, and as such promotions within the qun are so rare they may as well still be non-existent. That kind of restraint hinders far more then it hurts. Take the Dwarves, anyone who can come up with a new way (a better way) of doing something is rewarded by becoming a paragon, wherein the Qun even doing something amazing, you're just doing your assigned job that was expected of you. assigned by those no better then you. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 02:45, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

You shouldn't be rewarded for doing your job outside of the reward your occupation entitles. For s that’s money, for them that is honor and duty being upheld. That's like a mom rewarding a kid for cleaning his room without being asked. I'm not saying they promote peace. They promote order, peacefully or enforced. The qun is still an unknown, but everything asides the mages treatment makes sense. See a corrupt city? Show it the qun. See a group of people becoming rich off of those who suffer? Show them the qun. It makes sense to me, and your argument is invalid. The Qunari are the only race with advanced medicine and weaponry, they have more ingenuity and purpose than any other faction. If they could see the good of the mage, they would be unstoppable. A warrior if great worth and strength and worthy of more is a Sten, and even greater will be the Arishok. Those that are below are below because they are not able to fill this role. Just because someone earns it, doesn't mean they are good at it. They are actually proven to be very intelligent, even amidst the strict law of the qun, and happy. Your argument is for the sake of the illusion that is free will, which still exists in capacity within the qun. You do your duty, you go home to your "family." Sounds great to me, and someone denies its effectiveness they are without worth and will educated, or put to the blade.

The qun converts those in need and those that wish it. Fight it and you will die. Simple, almost evil, but effective and justified. --69.144.236.42 (talk) 04:11, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

So in your argument, you prefer being a slave of the role that have been given to you. Obviously, you deny the fact that when a person deny his/her conversion to the Qun, they are killed or mind-controlled by a poison. Happiness and such emotion never exist in the Qun because its is a form of individuality and the Qunari work as a whole or a body like the Geth of Mass Effect. Individuality is a form of selfishness to them and their weakness.122.54.218.77 (talk) 07:13, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

I do not believe it is slavery, not at all. Free to roam, to love, and to have friends, but duty above all else. Fenris proves that even an Arishok has opinions, and Tallis says all are treated equal. It's the life of a modern soldier, as in the forfeit of deluded rights and the acceptance of service. US military servicemen give up many rights, the same rights Qunari give up, is that slavery? Maybe. Serve your purpose and hold duty above all else. The only real difference is that Qunari have this aspect in all forms of work, once fulfilled they are said to have friends and family and allowed to love. Doesn't sound like slavery to me, sounds like purpose, order, and functionality.--69.144.236.42 (talk) 07:54, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

Ok few things, first; Yes you should be rewarded for doing a job exceedingly well. That's the whole purpose of going "above and beyond the call of duty" is to be rewarded for your actions. Branka invented the smokeless coal and increased their productivity and saved lives from black lung, that is amazing and should be recognized. The Qun would take such an act and just say 'get back to your job." Duty to "the whole" can only take them so far. Secondly; you claim " I'm not saying they promote peace." yet one paragraph up has you saying "It's a lawful neutral that can turn into a war machine; for the sole purpose of peace and order." a bit conflicting. Thirdly, you also say it's not slavery, but you also see no problem with saying "the Qun ALLOWS them to...[insert action here]" What the Qun offers is complacency, and stability for the commoners, in exchange of their basic rights. And to enforce their will, theres an entire "job" dedicated to threatening you into submission, or taking you to be "re-educated"(brainwashed) should you start to ask questions. "Serve your purpose and hold duty above all else." you forgot to end that with "or else..." and that "or else" is very important. It is because of that "or else" that they are vilified. to your point that my argument is invalid... based on what? simply because you make the point "this city is filled with scum, show themt he Qun, that makes sense" does not invalidate my argument, that they are promoting slavery in all but name. YOUR argument would make sense if they acting like the chantry and had people roaming the streets for converts, or having a chanter's board. That is not how they work however. Yes a US military serviceman "gives up" rights in exchange for certain privileges, but they were never forced to join the military they did so under their own free will. To top that off, they are also given great benefits and privileges that last long after they have left the military. Wherein the Qun, it is you're told your job and you will die in that job. No one is arguing their effectiveness, and on many occasions I've made the same argument as you, that if they could just figure out their mage situation, they could very well become unstoppable. But just because their methods are effective doesn't make them morally right. Tevinter saced Arlathan forcing generations of elves to literally forget their own language and history. It was effective, but it certainly wasn't right. I'd completely agree with everything you claim to love about the Qun IF they didn't have the "follow us or else" part of their doctrine. If all they did was hang out in par vollen fighting tevinter at their border, and sent non aggressive emissaries to the other countries to convert peacefully, I'd be totally on board (minus the mage treatment). Their execution however leaves much to be desired. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 14:38, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

I believe that in the Qun, love is non-existent. Sex is just for reproduction purposes but not for love and then you will raise by priest and trained on the role that is given to you."Doesn't sound like slavery to me, sounds like purpose, order, and functionality." Yes stability and order but in exchange for the right to choose your own life.180.191.138.168 (talk) 12:13, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

No the qun allows love. Warden, I see your point, but I just don't see how it is slavery. Also, by peace and order I meant within the qun; those outside it will likely suffer. Yeah, US Servicemen get great beenfits, when they shouldn't. That doesn't make sense to me. I od not understand why Servicemen are revered. They deserve the same respect as a burger flipper, nurse, businessman, or janitor. Going beyond the call of duty is irrevlevent; that isn't possible in the qun. You serve the qun. A warrior of the qun would do everything in his power to protect his fellow soldiers, and what would be going beyond duty in our eyes is something they would call duty. Not going beyond it. Doing what they should have done. Those that follow the qun to its core will find themsleves among the highest ranking, and perhaps a pillar of the qun. They earned it via duty, this concept of going beyond that duty is not real to them. --69.144.236.42 (talk) 20:47, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

Is there really that much horror and suffering in Thedas? We've only ever seen Thedas when it's in peril, we don't have a very good notion of how it is in times of no trouble.

That said, while the Qun is good in terms of order- it fails to adapt to circumstances. When you have your job, you're locked into it for life- with exceptions true, but for the most part your job is your job. This imposes a rigidness to life that I feel most people do not particularly like. How can you have hopes and dreams when your entire path is laid out for you? A poor farmgirl can dream to be a bard, but if the Qun says otherwise, you will not become one. And who is this decided by? People just like you, except they were chosen to be the choosers, they are no more special than anyone else- but the Qun says they say what to do. Friendlysociopath (talk) 02:09, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to mention this here because I'm seeing a lot of people getting this confused, but one does not need to worship a God in order to be a part of a religion. There are a such thing as atheistic religions, Buddhism being one of those. I could make a list of countless more atheistic religions in existence today and in history, but I'd prefer you'd do the research since I already have. NutMeg29 (talk) 02:37, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

I have always thought of the Qun as a philosophy akin to Communism, much more than a religion. Pulling from a not-so-reliable memory "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"...along those lines. You have a place, a purpose in society, and your success depends upon how well you fulfill that purpose. And, in keeping with that philosophy, worship of a deity fills no societal need. Between the Qun and the Chantry, I can't say that one is ultimately better or worse than the other - though if I had to give a nod to the choices offered by the OP, I would say the situation in Tevinter is probably the worst, in the keeping and trading of slaves as a way of life instead of an aberration when found in the other nations of Thedas. The Qun provides for each member of their society, the "White Chantry" nations more or less let folks decide - and fend - for themselves, and the Tevinter Empire has slavery, where some people have no choice at all but to be treated as chattel. Which would you prefer? Isabeau Cousland (talk) 18:23, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

The Qun makes communism look gentle, but yeah they are very similar. Tevinter has its slaves, but what the Chantry does to mages is barely any better. I'd say the Chantry's system is better for non-mages, and is better for society overall by about 2%.

In the Qun everyone is a slave. Everyone, even the Arishok. Tevinter might be the culture with the most inequality, but the Qunari have the most slaves. Ironically, they are also the culture with the most equality (except for mages). However, they have a zero/one mentality which allows for nothing other than equality. They devalue everything unique and overvalue the mundane, making art impossible within the Qun. In order to minimize suffering and maximize order they destroy everything else. Like a plague of locusts.

That they are fair and honest are the only good things that can be said about them. Silver Warden (talk) 01:20, June 17, 2014 (UTC)

The Andrastian Chantry uses Andraste's words "magic exists to serve man, not to rule him" as a way to lock up mages and make the general population fear that all mages are just walking abominations that will kill you for the slightest thing and that any Mage not collared by the chantry is automatically a blood mage and wants to kill you when really many mages just want to survive the Templars hunt them down the Qun is just as bad with mages while the Imperium is just corrupt and demon worshippers I believe that mages can govern themselves and not turn into the Imperium WardenMaster (talk) 19:13, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

That expression "magic exists...", has always said to me that magic should be used as a tool, not a weapon. Call me a mage apologist, but I feel like the Chantry has always gotten that wrong. Andraste was specifically talking about the magisters of the Imperium, how they used magic to rule. Time, and the Chantry, have warped that statement into fear of mages and their 'inherent' temptation towards demonic deals and blood magic, forgetting completely the good that magic can accomplish - eg. healing. Isabeau Cousland (talk) 20:53, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

Remember, you don't "follow" the Qun, you "submit" to the Qun. And that, I say, it the answer to the question right there. Wataru14 (talk) 01:49, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

I've looked around and the act of "submiting" to the Qun have only ever been said by the most radical members of the Qun or those who don't know much more than the rumors. As I believe, like most of thedas, we've only seen the best or worst of the Qun, this would be pretty much judging a religion or political party base off the most two most extremes. Its best not to judge until we see more of the Qun.--Jcama (talk) 07:27, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

The most radical members ... and the Codex. (http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Qunari_of_Other_Races) Wataru14 (talk) 05:21, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

I think the chantry and the strong, unwavering philosophies of the Qun sort of bog down critical thinking with blind faith and surety. If you aren't thinking for yourself, then you can't really sort out right from wrong as easily. The Andrastian Chantry, and the philosophy of the Qun basically do your thinking for you, though to different degrees. The Qun is obviously the more severe of the two. I guess if you're weak-minded and don't have any ambitions or goals, having somebody assign you a role to fulfill is fine and dandy, but some people want to do what they want, and it's not really right to force them to "submit" to anything either through indoctrination or by using brainwashing poison. A lot of Qunari are of course born to the Qun, and don't know anything else. That's why the Tal-Vashoth are mostly warriors, I think. Warriors travel, they see other ways of life, and some of them start to think "Hey, the Qun might not be that hella after all." And they defect. Most other Qunari don't get to travel, except for maybe traders, which could be how a Qunari Inquisitor came to be born outside of the Qun. And then there's the caste system of the dwarves, which doesn't enslave people, but basically equates the casteless and surface dwarves to non-persons. And the Chantry and human controlled lands enslave mages, and make elves into second-class citizens, and the Dalish hate all shems (though after centuries of slaughter, enslavement, and mistreatment, that is at least justified) so yeah, all the cultures in Thedas are pretty messed up when you really think about it. 71.255.175.4 (talk) 14:28, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, that ^^^ was me, I forgot to log in. Magesonly (talk) 14:30, June 23, 2014 (UTC)