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Ok, finished one tree. Check out [[Dual Weapon talents (Dragon Age II)]]. I'm still not sold on how to show upgrades within the invidual skills, but I think the rest looks good, including the mapped image! [[User:Tivadar|Tivadar]] ([[User talk:Tivadar|talk]]) 23:27, March 4, 2011 (UTC)
 
Ok, finished one tree. Check out [[Dual Weapon talents (Dragon Age II)]]. I'm still not sold on how to show upgrades within the invidual skills, but I think the rest looks good, including the mapped image! [[User:Tivadar|Tivadar]] ([[User talk:Tivadar|talk]]) 23:27, March 4, 2011 (UTC)
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[[User:Tivadar|Tivadar]], excellent work. Your abilities as an editor continue to make me feel wholly inadequate. Once Dragon Age 2 comes out, the image of the tree should probably be replaced with one that shows all of the talents clearly instead of faded.

Revision as of 03:31, 5 March 2011

Forums: Index > Wiki DiscussionTalents in Dragon Age II
Note: This topic has been unedited for 4772 days. It is considered archived - the discussion is over. Do not continue it unless it really needs a response.

Since the talent trees work differently than the ones in Origins, the talent tree pages will need to eventually be adjusted for DAII. VeNiX and I were discussing on how to deal with the upgraded versions on Talk:Explosive Strike.

For those who have not viewed the videos, see Backstab. The talent can be upgraded to "Murder" and "Perforate". Then "Backstab" becomes upgraded (e.g., if Backstab is upgraded to Perforate, Backstab now has a 10 seconds cooldown).

So, the question we were wondering is if the upgrades should have their own pages. There's also the issue regarding how the talent tree pages should be made easier for users to understand how the talent tree works. Again, for those who do not know, here's a screenshot for the Sabotage tree. The blue line means you can add or upgrade new talents, although I'm not exactly sure how the pre-req thing works to be honest. There are other examples like the Two-handed talents (Dragon Age II) (it's the most complete tree for DAII on the wiki as of now).

My suggestion is to only make redirects of the upgrades to the base talent (e.g. "Murder" redirects to "Backstab"), and keep everything on the base page (for ease of use). --D. (talk · contr) 08:28, February 9, 2011 (UTC)

I think the question is whether each upgrade it self has enough information to fill a separate page individually. If it is the case I think we should move to separate pages for each upgrade. If it is not, we can keep them in the same page (with the talent). -- Snfonseka (Talk) 13:22, February 9, 2011 (UTC)
That's subjective I think, take Mighty Blow for instance, it has two upgrades, one is Killer Blow which has like a 6 word description and one attribute change, that's basically a blank page to me, the other one Shattering Blow has enough of a description and stat additions/changes to warrant a new page, what I suggest here is no matter how much information an upgrade has it's better to stay on the same page as the talent, that way when I come check the wiki to see which upgrade is worth getting first I don't have to open 3 pages (accessibility), the other problem is of course how are we gonna deal with the Talents page formatting, if upgrades don't get new pages then we need to reflect on that on the talents page and even if they do they still need to stand out from the normal talents, using a new table mark up might do the trick. VeNiX (talk) 15:00, February 9, 2011 (UTC)
I hadn't thought of this but the upgrade can be a new article, and transcluded within its respective base talent. This will reduce clicking.
If we don't make new pages for upgrades, a parameter named "upgrade" could be included within the infobox, and it will styled differently when it's transcluded on the talent pages. I don't really have an idea on how it should look like though.
On styling the talent and spell pages, I wasn't sure how to include the requirement information for the upgrades, so it's currently in red. There's also some words (which are inflicted status, like BRITTLE or DISORIENTED) that have a small icons. I think we can make templates to have these words with the little icons for ease of use. --D. (talk · contr) 17:50, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
If you keep the upgraded talents as redirects you run into the problems when you start using those pages as transformations. For example, if we started using {{:Backstab|style=icon}} it would show up as Murder instead. Then, as you suggested, we could use {{:Backstab|style=icon|upgrade=murder}}. It could work but would be tricky to handle that transclusion. Another way to handle this is to use hidden pages. We have one or two examples lying around whose sole purpose is to handle transclusion. I prefer this solution because it lets us have a page called Backstab. Within that page we can transclude Murder and Perforate as infoboxes. In other pages we can transclude Murder and Perforate differently - depending on what we need. The articles Murder and Perforate itself will have no information - just a {{DoNotUse}} warning. -- tierrie talk contr 05:38, February 18, 2011 (UTC)
Would it not be easier to just create new articles and treat the upgrades like talents, except they're really upgrades? I think it will be less confusing if you arrive at Murder to see the actual information on the upgrade rather than a "Do no use" tag. You could add another transformer style for including the infoboxes within the main talent page. --D. (talk · contr) 16:11, February 18, 2011 (UTC)
I hadn't realized it, but all stealth abilities in DA:O are treated as new pages on the wiki. --D. (talk · contr) 16:13, February 18, 2011 (UTC)
After reading the discussion, I'd agree that there should be separate pages for each sub-skill. Each should obviously list its "parent". And I think the parent itself should either have a summarized version of its children included, or possibly even embed the page itself if that's possible. Tivadar (talk) 16:30, February 18, 2011 (UTC)

I have additional questions regarding the presentation for the abilities. Since there's an icon and a description for each tree, much like specialization, I've started to add an infobox. I think the picture for the tree is needed to see how the web works, but I'm wondering if it shouldn't be included within the infobox instead (there's no parameter for that yet).

Additionally, some of the effects of the ability are rather long, e.g., Weapon and Shield talents (Dragon Age II): it can become hard to read. You can imagine that, if the upgrades are also transcluded (I think they should appear regardless of the method), it's going to be a bit long.

There's also the order of which the abilities are listed. Unlike Origins, it's not really a linear upgrade. They could be listed by when they can be obtained, i.e., level first, then alphabetical order, then grouped with their respective upgrade), unless they are presented differently. --D. (talk · contr) 00:10, February 19, 2011 (UTC)


Re: Murder and Perforate, it would depend on how much information there is on each skill. If there are nothing noteworthy we can simply create a redirect or a disambig page instead of merely {{DoNotUse}}. But if there is sufficient information to warrant a page, then we could do that as well. Either way, a page should exist simply for the ease of transformation.
Re: Since the skills are no longer linear we can show the information a few ways. The first is the way we already do it - a simple list. The second is to add to prepend this list with an image map. Once we have a nice resolution, we can have the image map up front. Then we can fill the image map with mouseovers. Clicking it would link it to the listed skill/talent description within the page itself. Then clicking on the skill/talent in the list would take the user to the full talent page.
What do you think? -- tierrie talk contr 01:02, February 19, 2011 (UTC)
In short term, we can go with your first method. But as the long term goal I prefer the image map. They always look nice. -- Snfonseka (Talk) 11:18, February 19, 2011 (UTC)
Most have enough information to have their own page I think. This thread on the official forums lists all available abilities for Hawke, except specialization ones.
Currently, the abilities are listed by accessibility first. --D. (talk · contr) 16:03, February 19, 2011 (UTC)
Not completely sure what's the status of this issue, but articles for upgraded were created by a contributor (well I only spotted one), SushiSquid. I don't oppose the creation of these articles, so... yeah. Just giving an update. --D. (talk · contr) 23:17, February 23, 2011 (UTC)

Is there an elegant way to add image maps in using wiki formats? Or a way to do it at all? Ahh I see, World Map has an example. Let me see what I can do with the Dual Weapon Tree, seeing as that has a high-quality image already. Tivadar (talk) 15:27, March 4, 2011 (UTC)

Ok, finished one tree. Check out Dual Weapon talents (Dragon Age II). I'm still not sold on how to show upgrades within the invidual skills, but I think the rest looks good, including the mapped image! Tivadar (talk) 23:27, March 4, 2011 (UTC)

Tivadar, excellent work. Your abilities as an editor continue to make me feel wholly inadequate. Once Dragon Age 2 comes out, the image of the tree should probably be replaced with one that shows all of the talents clearly instead of faded.