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Krem is reveled to be a female that acts as a male and we know how he would be treated under the qun (possible loop-hole with the 'no female soldiers in the qun' rule), i wonder how would the rest of thuds treat transgenders,thoughts?--Thehumaneldar (talk) 04:56, November 25, 2014 (UTC)
Maevaris is a transwoman, and the first transgender character introduced (you could argue Serendipity, I guess, but Serendipity is meant to be a drag queen); I'm not exactly sure how widely known her biological sex is to the rest of her peers, but she did get married to a Dwarven husband, so we can assume that if the Chantry is aware of her biological gender, they didn't care and they were willing to preform her ceremony (assuming it works in Tevinter like the rest of Thedas and they are a legal couple). I'm not sure about Inquisition since I don't have it yet, but... If Krem is any indication, it might be plausible that Tevinter is tolerant of trans people, since the only two transgender characters we know about are both Tevinters. But, I remember hearing about Dorian's facing controversy due to him being elusively involved with men and how Tevinter supposedly dislikes things going away from the norm, so at the same time... Tevinter could be really intolerant, and it just so happens the first two transgender characters we have are both Tevinters. Though, Mae is a magister, so she might come from a really influential family so her biological gender might be easy knowledge for noble families and other magisters... it's hard to say. Does anyone know if the comics ever said anything about her family?
But for the rest of Thedas... really, it's hard saying. Everything is pretty much conjecture - and if Imperial Chantry did recognize Maevaris and her husband's marriage (and knew about her biological sex), we can't really use that for the Chantry in other countries, as the two groups work independently of each other. Lavellan (talk)
- Krem is noone of importance, s/he's a mercenary (forgive me but I'm totally inexperienced with this, so should I refer to Krem as a he?) and doesn't seem to have close relations to Tevinter other than being a citizen of the place. Just mentioning since as you said, you don't have the game yet - in Krem's case if he's accepted influence would have nothing to do probably.
- As for Dorian facing troubles with his sexual orientation, I'd have a guess: maybe they are tolerant when someone acts and looks as if they are hetero females or males, regardless of biological gender. But they may have problems with a man who acts like a man but wants men. That may be more controversial to them than someone who, say, looks like a woman, acts like a woman, and marries a man. But again, just a guess. 08:13, November 25, 2014 (UTC)
The only way transgenders are accepted in Thedas is via massive hand wave in the real world by BioWare due to politically correct horse crap. You're telling me Thedas accepts people who deny the physical reality of their own gender, who often deceive other people in the process, and yet Thedas oppresses elves just for being elves? Or mages just for having magic? Yeah, no. According to lore, Thedas should be completely hostile to such a notion, especially when it comes to the Chantry, which recognizes the importance of gender roles within the religion. And lets be honest, if a man started claiming to be a woman, what would commoners think? They'd think he was possessed by a Desire Demon and call the templars in to slay him. And the templars would do it too. Believe it! (talk) 16:07, November 25, 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah... no. The whole idea of gender only makes any sense if a particular society teaches it. So there is no "package" of gender and how to understand gender. There is nothing like "biological" in gender, and it is nothing new, we have this knowledge since the first decades of 20th century at least, yeah, 20th not 21th, so we are a century away from when people "first realized" (I mean, in a large scale and academically) gender is absurd.
Some people were born with penis and others with vaginas however the society commits the crime of culturally imposing a set of characteristics to each of those. Like, why the hell would women shave their bodies? It makes absolutely no sense. Or use tighter clothes, or make up, and so on. So since there is no gender regarding biology, regarding facts, a vagina is just a vagina, not a set of behaviours and aesthetics, each fantasy world can deal with it as they like it.
Since it is 100% cultural it is simply a question of stating that a specific culture of even all cultures in your fantasy world deal with gender as you see fit. So, again, there is no "package" like "intollerance package", no. Each and invididual prejudice has its own way. In fact in real world there are musulims country that accept transexual women better than they accept homosexuality, exactly like our friend over there supposed could be the case of Tevinter in this topic.
So the point is, it is not irrational to deal with gender in an open way in a world where people have lots of prejudices. In fact transexuality is nothing more than forcing people to conform to standards of genders, if they had no sexism no one would ever bother being transexual since there would be no concept of man or woman, being female or male wouldn't say sh*t about you, you would just be yourself and do what you want without these old and completely wrong concepts about man and woman. Raoniluna (talk) 18:02, November 25, 2014 (UTC)
- Um, wrong? *Sigh* No, transgenderism is where a person believes to be the opposite sex, or some third sex that doesn't actually exist. According to medical science this is a mental illness. So yes, it would exist regardless of gender roles. Those people actually believe their body is wrong and does not match their mind.
- Next, gender roles are completely appropriate, and your reference to genitalia is overly simplistic. Men are typically stronger physically, have larger hearts, and greater lung capacity. That makes men better at physical labor. Women are more emotional, have breasts, and are typically gentler, making them better caregivers for children. There are also certain intellectual tasks that men and women excel at in their own ways. Now as far as doing the laundry or cooking, stuff like that, it all depends on the couple and what they work out with each other. That's not what I'm talking about.
- Also, let's keep this in the game world of Dragon Age, not ours. I didn't see a retort on any of my points about the world of Thedas. Believe it! (talk) 18:29, November 25, 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not homophobic. And who said Tevinter accepted it? I thought the story was that no one knew Maevaris was really a guy. Though I admit I didn't care to research the character or the comic to see what people thought. Anyway, Tevinter doesn't even accept homosexuality. So why would they accept transgenderism? Believe it! (talk) 20:45, November 25, 2014 (UTC)
- Medical Science does not describe transgender states as mental illness. They haven't for a while. Also, anyone who actually knows about gender studies can tell you that your assessment on the subject is, at best, an amateur guess as what gender actually means. Gender has to do with the biological makeup of your sexual reproduction organs. Everything else you described has to do more with modern assigning of what gender is or is not. Case in point, in medieval/renaissance Europe, makeup was predominantly used by Men. At one point Women weren't allowed to even wear makeup. It was considered unseemly. Go back even farther and a lot of our understanding of cosmetics come from Ancient Egyptians. And both sexes wore makeup. I think it's cool that Bioware is not worried with real world gender problems. David Gaider does an awesome video talking about Sex in Games. Specifically discussing the idea of women wanting to find a niche in the titles being produced. Now everyone is going to have their own interpretations of correct behavior, and that is everyone's prerogative, but I think it doesn't hurt to keep an open and informed mind. Zakarrius
- they dont accept homosexuality in the public eye and for ppl in high society (because breeding) you have no idea what they are like for the "lower" classes. And Krem said it was hard in tevinter to be transgender one step away in the social latter to be a slave...so i don't think they do accept it... but i can't be sure its a lot of nuance. Alas a person without magic in tevinter is considered mostly unimportant. And thaedas is fairly inclusive most ppl you meet don't make a scene about gay\lesbian relationships... my point is don't assume anything - Faye Cousland
- Origins makes it pretty clear that most of Thedas disapproves of homosexuality. Don't know yet if DA:I contradicts this or not. Believe it! (talk) 15:21, November 26, 2014 (UTC)
I thought Krem was just a buff woman. I haven't done all that much in the game, but does Krem say she (he?) believed to be a man? I'm slightly confused, because it seems like you're saying Krem is transgender just for being very muscular. I'm sure thats not what you're saying, its just what it seemed like. Vexed Forest (talk) 01:41, November 26, 2014 (UTC)
- From Krem's page:
- "Krem is described by Iron Bull as fitting the Qunari concept of "Aqun-Athlok", which translates as "born as one gender but living as the other." -- 01:58, November 26, 2014 (UTC)
I believe it's noted in the Sexuality page what the majority of Thedosian nations feel about sexual orientations and marriage. However, as for "transgender" people, I think arguably the most tolerant nations would be Orlais or the Qun, or even Antiva. I don't imagine it'd be looked at with no fuss at all, since this *is* supposed to be a medieval world, but it'd be incorrect to dismiss the notion of tolerance offhand because of it. EzzyD (talk) 17:26, November 26, 2014 (UTC)
It's pretty clear this isn't going anywhere except into an ugly argument about real-life gender and sexuality, which has no place here. I'm locking this forum. --♫ Kelcat Talk 19:45, November 26, 2014 (UTC)