I've been reading a couple of threads and noticed that there is an undercurrent of dislike for blood magic and Merrill and her demon frolicking ways, and I was just wondering why this is? (Note: this is not referencing dislikes of things related to gameplay, more in regards to the "flavor" of the topics). I for one consider blood magic to be a school of magic like any other, with its pros and cons, and the ability to perform acts of great heroism (as my Warden, Hawke, Merrill and occasionally Morrigan proved, although she would never admit it) or acts of great depravity. Seems to me that could be said for any school of magic. And as for Merrill and her bartering with demons, I mean, it seemed to work wonders for the Imperium back in the day, no?
it's because Blood Magic is extremely dangerous magic. Mages already are at the risk of demons but by using magic that requires demonic intervention you are an even greater danger to everyone around you. While it's possibly that there can be good blood mages like Jowan or the PC it requires extreme self-discipline. Merrill is too naive and reckless with her use of Blood Magic, and as we see in her quest her willingness to work with demons only makes things worse. And remember that Tevinter Imperium is far from its glory days ever since Andraste's revolution.--B. Dynamite Tabris (talk) 07:53, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
- Which makes her a much better character than the generic stereotypes that make up the rest.174.45.14.218 (talk) 08:07, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
Because game lore tells it is baaaaaaad and most people prefer to believe what they're told and not to think deeper about it. Dorquemada (talk) 07:59, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
Excuse me, when does Morrigan perform any blood magic, except the Dark Ritual? Ygrain (talk) 12:20, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
- I think the OP may have made Morrigan's second specialisation Blood Mage. (DDragonfly1990 (talk) 14:04, May 9, 2011 (UTC))
There seems to be a bit of Christian thought in the game series that having any form of magic at all is dangerous and subjects the user to the possibility of being possessed by demons, which is why the Chantry has the templars clamp down on mages to protect normal people from them and to protect mages from themselves. (VicGeorge2K9 (talk) 12:36, May 9, 2011 (UTC))
It's anti-immigration rhetoric against Fade dwellers. They're portrayed as lazy, filled to the brim with unreasoning violence, seducing children into terrorizing their parents & communities, and fully committed to unhealthy ideologies. Futonrevoltion (talk) 14:00, May 9, 2011 (UTC)Futonrevoltion
I see blood magic as alcohol. You have the casual users who don't overdue it and have self discipline. Then there are the people who get drunk off their ass and run out into the streets naked. Just like your PC doesn't consort with demons, and the other blood mages that accost you in the street invite demons over for a dinner party.
I can't recall where I read it, possibly in an old discussion on this topic, that the use of blood magic gradually corrupts the user - that even if they start with honest intentions to use only their own blood, they end up committing atrocities. I do not know whether this was actually quoting a source or just someone's opinion, any ideas? Ygrain (talk) 14:56, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
I am regularly against blood magic being considered a form of magic like any other, as i have said in multiple forums too far. i never had a great hatred for Merrill (she was my first love interest). But ultimately i feel the main reason for her "hatred" (which i doubt as true hatred, merely people expressing different opinions about her actions that you have exaggerated) is that her actions were generally immature from the start. First of all blood magic is not hated purely due to Chantry propaganda. The Dalish hate it too. It built the Tevinter Imperium and forced the magistars to take elves as slaves and use them as gunnie pigs for their experiments. I feel it is greatly underestimated in many forums here how great a crime slavery is, not to mention the treatment of slaves. But as for Merrill, her actions were very much brought out not just a need to find lost Dalish history, but by her own arrogance that she would be the one to achieve it. The Pride demon himself pointed out Merrill's actions and options were very vain. She takes on blood magic against the advice of all around her, based on a promise of knowledge from a being with no real incentive to give her the knowledge (Demons are not evil, but they cannot deny their nature. To say they otherwise is simple putting your hatred for Chantry propaganda ahead of what you have seen. Ever demon, ever abomination (with the exceptions of Anders and Wynne, who has differing circumstances, are hostile to all those around them). She assumed she can use blood magic without fear of being outsmarted (which she was) or possessed (which she may well have been if allowed to continue), based on some of the weakest tricks to avoiding demons as seen by her time in the Fade. Her actions mirror the youthful foolishness of those who take drugs without considering the possibility of anything bad happening simply because it only happens to someone else. That is why people dislike her. Merrill is a sweet, cute girl with vision, ambition, bravery and tenacity. She simply chooses to apply it in a flawed, unconsidered way and those virtues turned bad. And whether she was a good person or not, her actions would have unleashed a Pride demon in the middle of Lowtown, causing countless deaths. Maybe blood magic can be used for good, like the Warden or Hawke (character shield aside). But i am always reminded of the Arishok’s line "swords may benefit warriors, but are not given to children." Merrill stubbled on blood magic like it was no big thing and sought to use it in a manner born out of both altruistism and great pride. A true qunari warrior respects his sword with his life, never parting or using it insignificantly, and uses it always with a focused goal that helps the collective, his brothers and sisters. Maybe that maturity and self-control is what is necessary to use blood magic effectively, but Merrill is not that. And why are people so certain blood magic can help anything. It enhances spells at the cost of others lives. Isn’t that a contradiction of the original goal? We already have healing magic, we have fighting magic. To say that blood magic can help us is really grasping at straws. So far all it done is make great ugly bosses for you to fight-- Ironreaper (talk) 15:01, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
EDIT: The dark ritual was not blood magic. Morrigan herself is wary of blood magic and only becomes so if you make her.--Ironreaper (talk) 15:03, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
Blood magic is dangerous and the Tevinter Imperium is the best example why blood magic is not a good idea. Its power can enslave people's minds and make them bend to their will. I am baffled that people look at slavery, mind-control and the potential of demons taking over your body as "small risks". Too be honest I wouldn't like Merrill if I knew about her carelessness with blood magic, and you could see her regret her actions after Marethari died. How many atrocities must we see (in a game) in Dragon Age before you are convinced that blood magic is dangerous despite its advantages it might give? I don't think many people would like the idea of being mind-controlled or being a host to demons. --NobleHumanRocks (talk) 15:50, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
My guess is that blood magic is dreaded because of its somewhat demonic nature - it allows to invade people's mind and manipulate them in other ways; demons are notorious for this. 'sides, it seems to be really easy to learn and use for how powerful it is, although that may be just wrong impression given by game's mechanics. The demonic intervention thing is unclear, I think Jowan, for example, learned it without dealing with any demon. Still, I don't see villifying and banning it as a good thing - bad people will still find ways to use it, and how can everyone else learn to protect themselves against it if nobody studies the subject?
I don't get the connection between blood magic and slavery as economic model, though. Tevinter magisters are blood mages and Tevinter has slavery, that's it. Orlais with their Divine and Exalted Marches dabble in slavery too, although they use some hypocritical PC term for it.
- Weren't slaves used for blood magic rituals as well? MartanTabris (talk) 18:19, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, but they were used for everything else, too. Dorquemada (talk) 19:41, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
Or it all may be because of most people's aversion to blood. Say, in VtM:Bloodlines every other fraction, even those with mind domination powers, hates on the Tremere, setting's equivalent of blood mages. Dorquemada (talk) 16:28, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
In my opinion it is the easy way to learn everthing about magic. No real hard studies, just cut yourself and handle it. It is like the dark side of the might *ggg It is the easier way. And in my opinion not the best. You need the help of a demon and therefore you do not learn it by studies. That's why I don't like it. It is just ... too easy. No responsibiliy, no obivous consequeses. Not my kind of way ;o) Finnyanne (talk) 20:00, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
--- I just think she was being way too... obnoxious about the entire demon thing. Otherwise, I don't really have an opinion on blood magic. Btw, been on this wiki for ever, just decided to make an account! Looking forward to helping the wiki :) Iriasi 20:27, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
Merrill Is naive, her magic leads to her entire clan (or atleast keeper) dying. She is more than willing to consort wiht demons, she nearly becomes an abominaition if not for Marethari. Quentin and what he did. The Tevinter Imperium, and how cruel they are to underlings, and how there society is based on blood magic. Blood magic is destructive, taught by demons, and is illegal for good reasons. You can reanimate someone mother and make her talk like a weird zombie, you need blood magic or demons to accomplish that. 142.161.185.3 (talk) 22:24, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
Several things I would like to say:
First of all, I’d like to thank everyone for the comments, as it’s always interesting to see and read other people’s opinions in a manner that does not involve insults.
Secondly, in response to some of the questions, yes, I made Morrigan’s second specialization blood magic about half the time (the second half of the time it was spirit healer, either because I killed Wynne, or didn’t want her around), and therefore that is why I said Morrigan used it occasionally, not due to the endgame ritual, which although she claims it is akin to blood magic, I don’t think it actually counts.
Third, I happen to completely agree with the above comment that likens blood magic to alcohol and how it, like all things, is good in moderation and bad when abused. I do however think this could apply to all forms of magic. Personally, I find the notion of hurling fireballs and calling down large elemental storms to be very addictive, and I am very sure that such a skill can be abused just as, if not more easily than blood magic when it comes to acts of destruction and slaughter.
Fourth, I do not believe I have exaggerated anything in regards to some people’s general feelings towards Merrill, although I will be the first to admit that a.) everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and b.) that gauging something such as this is indeed a highly opinionated matter. However, both on this site (although not as much as elsewhere) and on several other forums/sites I have seen what is to me an unusually high amount of comments regarding her as a hated companion, which led to me throwing her in with the blood magic bit, since it is hard to discuss the one without the other.
Finally, in regards to the whole moral morass of the entire thing, not all demons are wholly hostile to all around them. The Desire Demon in the Mage Tower in Origins sticks out to me as one prime example, although I digress. Merrill wasn’t so arrogant to assume nothing bad could happen to her, seeing how as if I recall correctly, she asks Hawke to accompany her so that in her own words “if it possesses me, I need you to strike me down.” That seems to be a fairly clear, concise and obvious acknowledgement and fear of the risks involved and of preparations being taken in the event they come to pass. Furthermore, blood magic does not have to completely consume someone’s (innocent or otherwise) life essence in order to be effective, as is blatantly obvious from the fact that you as either the Warden or Hawke are capable of using it by drawing on your own blood and not dying. You’re simply using a different medium for drawing upon magical energy. What is the difference between casting fireballs at a horde of darkspawn or other villains until you run out of mana and then get overrun and casting fireballs at a horde of darkspawn or other villains until you run out of mana, and then switching over to using blood magic and continuing to rain death and destruction upon them? Answer: one way is extremely more efficient, and other than that I don’t see any other differences (I don’t think the fireball becomes any less fiery, dangerous, deadly or all in all less morally justified because you used your blood to power the spell instead of mana or lyrium.)
No action is in and of itself good or bad. An action becomes good or bad based on the intentions and consequences of said actions.
I hate more Anders than Merrill. Really
Awesomeness of Merril's Dialogue in Da2 far outweighs stuff about blood magic ("They're so big and grim! What do you suppose would happen if I tickled one of them?" ). The thing most people hate on is the whole "Demons are awesome" thing. Personally I see nothing wrong with this. I think the main thing is that because of this and some dialogue people think that Merril's sort of well.. stupid, rather than noticing the whole "innocence" aspect that bioware -tried- to implement. Granted, some of her lines do sound really dumb. But still awesome.
Whiny-ness of Ander's Dialogue in Da2 does not outweigh his DaA counterpart. I don't care that he blew up the chantry, but he killed Grand Cleric Elthina.
Who was a total badass.
Only person who could bitch slap Meredith and get away with it.
~Unregistered wiki contributor 173.35.255.142 (talk) 01:04, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
I personally did not hate her, but I always found her consorting with demons unsettling. So whenever I romanced her I kinda took the aggressive,protector role to help change her ways. But regarding blood magic, is a crazed mage using lyrium to fuel his spells to cause atrocities any less dangerous than a blood mage. No. All forms of magic have limits, but overall can be used for good. Yet others push limits and cause problems, blood mage or no. Originally I openly opposed the circle, but as I saw what mages could do my opinion changed. All in all anyone can be dangerous wielding such power, whether it be magic or a giant great sword. Like the saying "Guns don't kill people. People kill people" blood magic can be interpreted in the same way. People who are restrained can use it for good, yet others don't and that leads to the atrocities we witness in the game. Back on the topic of Merrill, she is an inexperienced, immature mage who should not dabble with such things. Maybe after she learned more control but as far as her character goes that we've seen of her, she honestly can't handle it. Just like you wouldn't trust your handgun in your child's hands, you can't trust the naive with such dangerous things.Sd4646 (talk) 01:28, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
She reminds me more of a kid swinging a pair of num-chucks. She does not know how to use it and is going to hurt someone. Blood magic is useful but thier alot to be tempted with. More blood more power where do you get more blood. Some can handle but it seems those who can have no need of it.--173.226.153.162 (talk) 01:57, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
In regards to Merill, I don't exactly hate her, but in comparison to the other companions I'm not exactly too fond of her either (Sebastian will forever be the bane of my eternal hatred). I for one find Blood magic quite useful, but only because I'm the one using it; I don't trust my other companions to use it properly, with Merill as the prime example as to why. Like all magics, Blood magic is dangerous if wielded in the hands of an inexperienced mage, but unlike the other schools of magic it is lacking from any formal study into it, which makes it the most feared; people fear what they don't understand. The fact that the chantry doesn't look too fondly on the study of blood magic (as like the Litany of Adralla) doesn't help in this matter. The only school that is even remotely close to Blood magic is the school of entropy, and even then scholars have gone as far as confusing this school with blood magic simply because they both deal with ones life force. So, like with all magics, I accept that it is useful, but also keep in mind that it is also dangerous if not used properly. Merill, on the other hand, doesn't really seem to grasp this idea, and that is what worries me more than the fact that she's using it. Even Flemeth warns Merill to be wary of how she proceeds down her chosen path, yet what does she do? She doesn't listen. Merill could have been able to use her blood magic more responsibly if all she did was just LISTEN. Instead, she lets her pride blind her from seeing reason, and because of it, Merathari (and possibly her clan) ends up having to pay for it. It's like Loghain, but on a smaller scale; she is doing more damage than good by thinking that she alone can save her clan. Sevarian10 (talk) 02:37, May 10, 2011 (UTC)Sevarian10
- I, for one, think that Blood Magic is another kind of magic. In this thread I have said as much. (Unfortunately the thread went sour.) I am, however, of the opinion that in order to use Blood Magic, we must understand it first. People fear what they don't understand, yes, but there's more to it.
- First, it uses life force to power it, unlike other kinds of magic which tap into the power of the Fade. Using any kind of magic, you must learn to increase your tapping capacity (or use more mana). In order to gain more power, you must train your mind and body to a greater capabilities. If you try to use magic more powerful than what your mind and body can afford, you might die. Blood magic is different. In order to get more power, you only need more blood. Eventually, you reach a point where all the blood in your body is no longer enough to power the uberspell you're trying to master. Here, Blood Magic offers an easy way out: use other people's blood. See where this goes? The bloodletting of slaves under Tevinter Imperium is a logical development of using blood magic.
- Second, of course the demonic possession is a problem that must not be overlooked. We have been told that mages are under constant threat of demonic possession, even without blood magic. However, throughout the series, we can only find demons possessing a living humanoid when that particular humanoid uses blood magic.
- Back to topic, I found myself hating Merrill for two reason: her naivety and her quest for power. Taken separately, both are quite ordinary characteristic; taken together they make an explosive combination that will inevitably lead to harm. If she wasn't so naive, she would first try to understand the mirror instead of trying to fix it right away. The same with her use of blood magic. Why! What I hate the most of her is her attitude that she knows the best for everyone. Her naivety and her quest for power have made her blind to any other thing except what she wants.
- Each of us has his/her own preference in life, and I can understand if other people prefers to love or hate a character in a story. But there you are. Facts: Blood Magic is dangerous. I hate Merrill because she acts like a know-it-all regarding something so dangerous. --Braveangel (talk) 03:28, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
i agree with mch of your points and i must aplogise for the past thread going sour. i did not imagine people would take a afterthought i added and change the topic completely. Had i had that chance again i would definatly have stuck to the topic.--Ironreaper (talk) 03:35, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
- That's okay, Iroreaper. S**t happens. LOL. Even the best intention doesn't always go down well. Though I disagree on some points, you're whole points in that thread are valid.--Braveangel (talk) 04:42, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
MORRIGAN has more sense than to deal with demons and use blood magic (unless you yourself dealt with demons in a current or alternative dimension [dimension=warden playthrough :P] and gave her the ability) except for a single instance of something that "might be seen as blood magic".
For us, this should tell a lot. I mean, she is all about the survival of the fittest. Obtaining power. Her mother and mentor is a freaking unique abomination. And yet she refuses to deal with demons...
Which means Merrill's policy of "Demons are our friends!" is simply dumb. Stupid. Idiotic, even.
DA2 even shows us that Blood Magic combined with proper knowledge is a step to an even greater abomination : Necromancy. Now, the latter is pretty bad in any RPG game - in Dragon Age universe it actually seems it is one of the worst, since YOUR MOTHER GETS TRAPPED IN A BODY OF A ZOMBIE.
Are you still so sure Blood Magic is just a tool? It is beyond alcohol. More like both alcohol and drugs at once. And in a deal that when you get addicted to one, you automatically get addicted to the other. Sure, with extreme willpower, caution etc. you can use such a thing.
But is it worth the risk? Most likely no. Unless the goal is something really great.
And NONE of the Blood Mages we found so far really has that great of a goal.
Except for love. Quentin had that one. I'm sure we all remember where it lead him.
( 89.77.234.187 (talk) 06:18, May 10, 2011 (UTC) )
- Necromancy is a basic form of Blood Magic. The undead are corpses, possessed by demons.
- Considering the ease in which even the least effective party carves through hordes of undead, the majority of demons (and, therefore, non-PC Blood Mage staples) are pretty wussy. Futonrevoltion (talk) 12:00, May 10, 2011 (UTC)Futonrevoltion
- Blood Magic, in its truest definition, is nothing more than using blood in lieu of lyrium or mana to power spells. It is not evil in and of itself. Necromancy actually has its roots in Spirit Magic (ala Animate Dead), Blood Magic tends not to work on corpses, as they have little or no blood to manipulate. 95.170.204.98 (talk) 13:49, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
- While 95.170.204.98 is technically correct, I'd like to say that you both seem to be forgetting the facct (at least Futonrevolution is) that in DA universe we were not really introduced to the term "necromancy"before Quentin and that base skeleton-creating is indeed a Spirit School - based spell.Necromancy as defined in DA isn't just animating corpses - which is accomplished apparently by either investing mana&spell into a dead body or summoning a demon of rage or hunger into a dead body - but as the thing Quentin did, which includes trapping the will and controlling a fully-animated body of a person. Therefore, Dragon Age necormancy should be considered more vile (and a higher form of magic), than necromancy in, say, Dungeons&Dragons or Might&Magic. This is supported by the fact that Gascard is a Blood Mage, but he asks Quentin to teach him "the secrets of necromancy", and Harvester Transformation is apparently also necromancy.
( 89.77.234.187 (talk) 15:16, May 10, 2011 (UTC) )
If I where to speculate on how Quentin’s form of necromancy works in DA2, it would seem that it goes beyond trapping a spirit from the Fade – as is the standard way of animating the dead – and instead traps the spirit of a person, in that case Leandra, in a construct. While Orsino uses it to trap his own spirit in the harvester construct he becomes. Blood magic is obviously a part of this, as is some parts spirit magic, and Quentin likely uses it to maintain control of Leandra and as well as for keeping her spirit trapped in the artificial body.
As for Merrill, I don’t hate her or dislike her – if anything I pity her. This is because her intentions are good, she’s trained to maintain and discover more about her peoples history and culture, and she seems to understand, though underestimate, the danger of what she’s doing – shown when she asks Hawke to kill her, should she be possessed. But she’s also too stubborn for her own good, single-mindedly seeking to fulfil her goal, despite the danger, and repeated warnings from Marethari and others. And then her own pride makes her believe herself capable of outwitting the demon, though not certain, so if Marethari hadn’t stepped in Merrill would have been the one to be possessed. That it takes the death of a loved one – basically her adoptive mother – for her to realise the danger of what she’d been doing is sad, and it makes me pity her, but never hate her. – Kerethos (talk) 23:01, May 11, 2011 (UTC)
- I agree; it's more of feeling bad for her than feeling bad at her. It's sad she can't realize the danger she is dealing with and what it takes her to realize that. At least you can change that through her quest line. It is sad to see good intentions go wrong because she is too stubborn and naive to realize what she is doing.Sd4646 (talk) 00:08, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
Someone up there mentioned Anders talking to Merrill about discovering blood magic incidentally; however, this dialogue suggests something else:
Anders: So, there must be mages in Tevinter that don't use blood magic.
Fenris: Of course. There are slaves. The magisters do not hesitate to collar their own kind.
Anders: But no magisters?
Fenris: Why must you go on about this? No magister would turn down an advantage over his rivals. If he did, he'd be dead.
Anders: You know, to use blood magic you must look a demon in the eye and accept his offer.
Anders: I just figured some of them would say no. For aesthetic reasons, if nothing else.
BTW, given that Anders tries to persuade Merill to give up blood magic, I believe he was rather being ironic about the "incidental discovery" Ygrain (talk) 04:49, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
No he was trying to be innocent about it. he had little idea about how much the Dalish knew about blood magic and thought Merrill was just an innocent, ignorant girl who stumbled on blood magic without understanding it. To actually seek out a demon was something he did not think such an innocent looking girl would do.--Ironreaper (talk) 04:15, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
I don't hate Merril for it, because it's what makes her such a great character. The innocent girl who happens to be consorting with big purple demons that you've been killing since day one. Makes for a great moral choice with her.
I think there is only one thing to be said for Blood Magic: it is. Blood Magic is there. It has been there since the Undying or whomever taught the first Blood Mages how to use it. It will be there until the Templars decide to be smart for once in their hate-filled psychotic fanatic lives, and use all the lyrium the Chantry has, along with all the Mages of every Circle, and go into the Fade, and freaking kill every Demon in there. DA4, please please PLEASE!
Seriously, though. The biggest problem with Blood Magic is the Chantry. The Chantry see Blood Mages as evil, and so they force them to go undercover in order to practice their art. They restrict their options. By allowing study of Blood Magic, watched over by the Templars and by other Mages, they could (a) learn more about Blood Magic, the Fade, and possibly how to reduce or eliminate the chance of possession, while (b) being in a position to intervene if something does go wrong. Knowledge is power, and if the Chantry allowed themselves to know about Blood Magic, they would have power over it. How long would it take for Templars to gain an understanding of Blood Magic themselves? How long would it take them to develop methods for resisting Blood Magic in much the same way as the Seekers of Truth are reported to? It really couldn't be all that hard, and if the Chantry would see reason for once (impossible, I know, with a religious institution, you don't have to tell me), they would have a much better position. Dicks. (talk) 20:32, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but any "school" of magic that uses the life of innocent people to summon demons, control minds, and create Frankenstein creatures from living humans is obviously fl;awed. Look at what the corrruption in Tevinter from blood magic created, the darkspawn. Yes, the chantry over exagerates the danger and clearly oversteps its boundries in Kirkwall and the other circles, but even an outspoken mages advocate like myself realizes why ordinary people fear it so much, and thus mages. Many of the conflicts in game between the Templars and mages are fueled by blood magic, and I just can't allow myself to think that something so dark and sinister can be controlled, even by Hawke and the Warden.68.38.137.246 (talk) 02:58, May 15, 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, forgot to sign in with my username for the above post. EWRPV (talk) 03:04, May 15, 2011 (UTC)
You DO realize that, in the same breath, you admitted that the Chantry uses propaganda to control people's fear of magic, and also used a piece of that same propaganda to support your argument? The Chantry says that Blood Magic created the Blight. If that's true, then there should be a way for Blood Mages to control it in some way. And if their legend is literally true, then explain, please, why they still worship a God who would send the freaking Blights at them. In my opinion, the Chantry legend about the Blight is just that: a legend. There is no reason to believe that Darkspawn are in any way linked to the Fade, for one have you ever heard of a Darkspawn Abomination?
And if you say using the blood of innocent people or creating Frankenstein monsters is wrong, then would you ban blood transfusions and defibrillators too? Same principle, really. Blood Magic is another option, just another tool a Mage can use. All magic is dangerous to the Mage, yes, Blood Magic only slightly more so. But then again, even holding a sword is dangerous to the user, and I don't see the Chantry locking up every single human just because they're born with the ability to hold a weapon. Instead, they sponsor them. Make Blood Mage Templars. They would learn SO much more! (talk) 12:40, May 15, 2011 (UTC)
Blood Magic is, as Jowan says at Castle Redcliff, basically an alternative to lirium. You can use powerful spells that whould require great packs of lirium just by cutting yourself. As to why Merrill is not fit to blood magic is just because she does not realize what she is doing. I played the Hero of Ferelden as a Dalish Elf, and Merril was much more cold, serious, at the time. THAT Merril could have used Blood Magic with responsability, but not the DA2's Merril. Yunvich
Aiello, the Chantry's origin story for the Blight is clearly propaganda, as Avenus states the darkspawn taint is alien to demons. If demons, the inventors of blood magic, cannot comprehend the darkspawn taint then it clear has a differing origin. But your opinion seems to ascribe to the doctrine of "blame the Chantry". Firstly, the people of Thedas, particularly those of low class, are naturally superstitious of magic as it is something they cannot understand without any pressure from the Chantry. The Chantry did not make up the Tevinter Imperium, so people are well aware of it and the crimes committed in that time. Also and the mages of the Imperium came to power before they openly used blood magic, so common people simply fear mages using magic to dominate them, blood magic or not. In fact most common people do not understand the concept of good magic and blood magic, simply fearing all magic on principle.
Similarly, the Chantry has an explanation for why the Maker let the Blights to occurs. Lore states the Maker was disgusted when the mages tried to conjure the Golden City and turned his back on humanity, letting them suffer as punishment. This is the Chantry's explanation for evil and suffering in the world and follow the believe that if the Maker returns to the world, he will end all suffering and evil. It is ironic that Thedas has an explanation for the evils of the world while the religions of the real world are still debating the reason for it.
Your claim that darkspawn are cut off from the Fade is interesting, if a little unfounded. It is indicated that some mana or connection to the Fade is required to use blood magic and Emissaries use a form of blood magic. They would also have to learn it from demons. Still the point is valid, considering they live similarly to the dwarves, who are also cut off from the Fade.
However, we cannot live blindly rebellious to the Chantry. Blood magic cannot be considered good simply because the Chantry said it was bad. The Dalish hate blood magic too. And blood magic as a form of magic has many horrible drawbacks. To make any spell significantly more impressive than standard magic, the life force of the mage is not enough and they are required to drain it form another to the point of death. It cannot be considered simply another form of magic when life is considered a cheap commodity to be used then tossed away. It was because of this the Tevinter Imperium needed slaves: so that mages always had slaves to drain off if they needed power. And slavery, not to mention human sacrifice, is a horrible thing indeed. If any study of blood magic is undertaken, then living subjects must be used as lab rats since using a safe amount of blood would not be enough. Would you be willing to enslave another to study blood magic?
Similarly, blood magic has always, without fail, ended badly for the practitioner. Many display insanity and violence, others are overwhelmed by demons. Few have shown to use blood magic without suffering for it. You can attribute some of the insanity shown to having leaved under Templar supervision, but even relatively stable individuals have gone insane overnight. Avernus accidentally tore a hole in the Fade and spent more then one lifetime trying to undo his mistake. The mad hermit in the forest is wasting his days in insanity. Huon murdered his wife in cold blood. Decimus proved himself to be mad (though he did appear quite militant minded from the start). Grace ultimately destroyed her best chance to make things right due to short-sightedness, arrogance and rage that could partially be attributed to blood magic. Uldred, a senior enchanter and presumably powerful wizard, was overtaken by a demon after five seconds. Eveline, a mature, kind, reasonable and altruistic young women, became a violent abomination who endangered the lives she swore to protect. The blood mages seen in Kirkwall often go beyond merely seeking freedom and actively seek to restore a mage ditatorship. Ever demon and abomination (excluding Wynne and Anders) are shown to be hostile. Despite what you say, the Chantry's teachings that demons are manipulative and untrustworthy have always been proven true. Even the openly anti-Chantry Anders holds a fierce anti-blood magic stance.
Jowan has been something of a poster boy regarding the stance for blood magic, under the belief he used blood magic and remained a good person. The idea that one person in one hundred can use blood magic safely is not comforting. And whether someone is a good person does not detract if their actions are dangerous. Merrill is a good person and her actions would have unleashed a Pride demon into Lowtown. Jowan was a not a good person: a displays cowardice, manipulation and irresponsibility. His real virtue is his extreme guilt for his mistakes. It is a common response of humans to commit great good to make up for past mistakes. Maybe it was his guilt at have made mistakes that made him a good person. His life ultimately did become undone after he tried blood magic: he was caught by Gregor and sentenced for tranquillity, he lied to his lover and best friend right to their faces, he lost both when the truth got out and left them both to their fates while he made a run for it. He accepted an offer to kill a man without any consideration for the man in question, ignoring the wife who let him in and the son who looked up to him and the fact that to others Arl Eamon was a good man. He did not care, caring only for the benefits for himself. This resulted in him almost murdering a good man, which in turn caused Connor to turn to demons to help, ultimately unleashing the Redcliff Massacre. In the end, Jowan's redemption only came when he stopped using blood magic, proving he was wise enough to learn his lesson.--Ironreaper (talk) 06:45, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
Why does everyone seem to say blood magic can only be learned from demons? The wiki here says it's only that way now cause it's teaching is forbidden, argo, a demon is the only reliable avenue of instruction. It's origin is not established in any solid fashion, only speculations that it was the first magic taught to the magisters by Dumat, or learned by said magisters from the Arlathan elves. Seems to me the only reason (aside from it now being a popular teaching aide/bargaining chip for demons) is that the Tevinter's used it excessively during the height of their regime. Well that and the fact that it uses blood (often other people's) and can mind control people.
Hell, in DA2's description of Blood Magic (least the on here on the wiki) it states that Blood magic is the only physical magic, as in, the only type completely free of the fade and it's spirits. This leads me to theorize that the practice of blood magic did not originate with demons, but that they seduce mages with its power because it uses life force rather than mana. To elaborate, I suspect(despite the belief that the devs don't actually have a set in stone reason for it) that the frequent use of one's own life force to fuel spells makes one more susceptible to possession by a demon, hence why demons would want to retain knowledge of it in order to enter into a Faustian bargain with mages. Tevinter mages are not prone to possession because they routinely use other people's blood to fuel their magic instead of their own (notable examples in Fenris' quests and dialogues). That's just my theory anyway.--174.3.126.170 (talk) 11:08, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
I highly doubt anyone outright stated that, rather you are bending people's words to make an argument. The fact is that demons are the most accsessable, and thus most common, source for blood magic, as any mage can talk to a demon in their sleep, communicate in the manner Sprit Healers do or even enter the Fade itself. Jowan learned blood magic from books in the library. and im sure their are other methods. And the fact is that demons do have a clear connection with blood magic. As well as being able to teach mages about it, it grants mages the power to control demons, thus highlighting the connection between them. But, as the warden or Hawke show when using blood magic, mana is necessary to start the process. if no connection with the fade was required then anyone could use blood magic instead of just mages.--Ironreaper (talk) 15:17, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
Actually, that may or may not be true. Is mana required to use blood magic, or is there something inherent within mages that allows them to manipulate mana, and ergo, use blood magic in a way that a normal person cannot, in much the same way that the Force affects and surrounds everyone in the Star Wars universe, but only a select few have the capability to utilize it?
-Kahmal
I just started my 2nd full play through as a duel dagger rogue. I usually played with Anders as my main mage. This time I’m switching it up. I bought the “$5 weapon package” and the ring you get for Merrill combined with a 2nd blood magic ring and the blood mage staff gives her unlimited mana! I upgrade her with 2 magic and 1 constitution then, 1 magic and 2 constitution the next level. I filled up all of her specially tree which makes her a She’s bad ass! I only wish she’d do more than complain that Sandel is watching her. Is that really all she does if you ask her to move in with you?? LAME!!!! Morgan and Leliana gave it up every time I was at camp! Lazer 12:27 pm, May 16, 2011 --- What bothered me about blood magic was how much of a violation it was. To take control of another person's body is wrong. It sounds silly, I know, but as far as magic went it always seemed rude? Like drugging someone I guess. If you're going to kill someone, at least allow them to be themselves when you do it.
Blood magic is the shit and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Tevinter too. Isseya, Garahel's sister saved Thedas using blood magic. It's a weapon and has been compared by Gaider to gun laws and such. If used irresponsibly it will wreak havoc. If used right it can save several lives. ---- Soulofshezarr (talk) 00:35, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
My problem with Merrill isn't the fact she is a blood mage (I like her attitude) but the sheer fact that she just wont listen. It's like a teacher trying to stop a kid from getting in trouble the kid just wont listen and keeps getting in trouble. Every one (most of the time on playtrough's even Hawke) is telling her to stop messing with the mirror, hell even Anders and Fenris agree that this is just stupid and she needs to stop THEY NEVER AGREE EVER. But Merrill just keeps on going along and what happens it cost her the keepers life and possible (depending on what you say) the hole clans life when in fact before she had every one on her side caring for her and telling her to stop, she had years (in game) to stop and think about this but she just kept at it and look were it got her. That my main issue with her. The fact she is a mage was not the issue the issue was her actions and what the cost that came with said actions.--Jdgjordan (talk) 02:53, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- I'm sorry I disagree. While the mirror is more trouble than it's worth nobody forced Marethari to become an abomination. She did that on her own. -- Soulofshezarr (talk) 13:18, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with Soulofshezarr, Marethari took the demon into her own body on her own initiative. Really its her fault if the Dalish clan dies. Merrill took steps to prevent the demon from escaping, and seeing as how Hawke and company slays Marethari and the Demon I'd say Merrill is the one proven right in the end.
- Furthermore, I know this thread is old but a lot people were talking about how Merrill has no idea what she is messing with and she is so inexperienced, but I think they are wrong. Merrill was the keeper's apprentice for an unknown number of years before learning the blood magic. When we meet her Merrill probably knows a lot more about magic, and about Demons and the Fade, than Bethany did. While traveling with Hawke, Merrill gains 7 years of experience as blood mage not just in everyday life but in countless life and death fights, and she never shows any signs that she was tempted to become an abomination. Meanwhile Orsino the righteus leader leader of the circle mages gives into the temptation in what is possibly only his second battle (first time against the Qunari, second time against Templars). I think people are just seeing Merrill's nice attitude and her naiveté about the human world and perceiving those as some kind of weakness or ignorance. But she shows more strength of spirit than a man who has spent his entire lifetime in the circle learning about the "dangers" of blood magic. Drake72 (talk) 18:24, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- Is not the Orsino situation ironic, what a hypocrite first saying "we are no blood mages" and then "the Templars will kill us anyway so why not use the time to become blood mages". Caspoi (talk) 19:45, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- It's ironic and hypocritical, but the man has been backed into a hopeless corner. He would not be the first man in such desperate straits to say "then let me be evil". Luper567 (talk)
- Is not the Orsino situation ironic, what a hypocrite first saying "we are no blood mages" and then "the Templars will kill us anyway so why not use the time to become blood mages". Caspoi (talk) 19:45, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- There's no justifying what Orsino did. Not only was he a blood mage for at least 3 years (9:34-9:47), but he was colluding/conspiring/collaborating with a serial killing blood mage/necromancer. He allowed the guy to go on his killig spree and did absolutely nothing to stop him or alert the templars/authorities. IMO blood magic isn't evil, but if we go by the Chantry's laws Meredith, as crazy as she was, had every right to call on the Annulment of the Kirkwall Circle. I'm usually on the pro-mage side of these arguments, but there's is no excuse for what Orsino did and you won't win any debates trying to justify it. ---- Soulofshezarr (talk) 20:19, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- There is actually nothing saying Orsina was a blood mage for three years and while it is indicated that he had dealings with your mothers killer we do not know how far their relationship went or how much Orsino actually knew (look at me suddenly I am taking his side). Caspoi (talk) 20:26, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- Edit: And Templars have only the right to call for an annulment when the whole circle is beyond redemption. Caspoi (talk) 20:39, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
- I hardly condone what he did. What he did was horrifying. That said, I understand why he did it. He was in a slow, grinding, losing battle with an increasingly paranoid Knight-Commander. He was a weak man, and in a moment of desperation, succumbed to exactly the sort of temptation the Chantry and her templars warn against. As far as Quentin goes, it's totally unjustifiable, but he's hardly the first mage to plumb the depths of what man was not meant to know, or to abet those that do. At best, Osrino decided that he knew enough about Quentin's research to decide he didn't want to know any more. At worst, he thought it might be some dark power that might be useful against the templars if it came down to shooting. As I said, not condoning it, but it's understandable how he got there. A big theme of DA2 is how people's worst instincts end up biting them in the ass and toppling fragile systems. Luper567 (talk)
Is it me or does it smell like a corpse in this post? oooh yeah it's the necromancy used to revive this post FROM THREE YEARS AGO!!!--
21:20, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
R.I.P Merrill stupidity, it will be talked about for ages--Jdgjordan (talk) 21:52, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
My issue with Merrill is that she is very naive with the subject of blood magic. I just find naive an unappealing trait. She's funny at times, but I do not like her personal quests. As for blood magic, I don't feel it is totally evil, but it is a much more potent form of power, as oppose to non-blood magic, and too much power, magic or otherwise, can usually lead to corruption of any form. Magic713 (talk) 21:27, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
I like Merrill, but can't see any reason to support blood magic. The only person I can think of in the entire series who doesn't fall for the seduction of power and demons of blood magic is...Merrill. And even she has cohorted with demons in the past. The game itself literally goes out of its way to say, blood magic is really, really bad and leads to violence one way or another in 99% of cases. There is zero grey area on this issue. 108.75.6.129 (talk) 22:03, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
People hate Merrill because of her hubris. I disagree that she's in control and an expert in what she's doing, she's walking on thin ice. Even if we excuse her use of blood magic which is like playing russian roulette with her life, messing with a mirror that can unleash not only demons but the blight is just irresponsible. And for a stupid reason like sating her curiosity? I mean how can people defend her when she jeopardizes everyone? And we all know that letting Merrill keep the mirror was a bad call from the devs.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 23:39, October 15, 2014 (UTC))
What? Blood magic is wholesome and wonderful! I mean, it comes from demons and (as we all know) demons read to sick children in the hospital and feed the homeless and stuff. Of course something they give people is perfectly fine and not at all a trap. That being said, I actually don't hate Merrill for her descent into Blood Magic to fix the Eluvian. I completely understand why she did it. What I do hate her for is the fact that she disapproves of killing demons (even after seeing them kill and generally torture/maim/terrorize other people ... and trying to kill both you and her) and the lobotomy she seemed to have after DA:O. In the Dalish origin, she's a little stuck up and slightly oblivious, but it's like she became a whole different person in DA2. Wataru14 (talk) 01:58, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
- What a character acting completely different in da2 then when last saw them in another game, no that cant be right they would never do something like that CoughAndersCough.--Jdgjordan (talk) 02:46, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
- Anders at least had some semblance of a reason to act like a different person. He had a separate entity sharing his head with him. For better or worse, that is going to cause a personality change. With Merrill, the writers just decided "She's going to be totally different now cuz reasons." Wataru14 (talk) 13:17, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
One, blood magic is 98% used to do evil things. It's the same argument as guns in real life. You could say guns don't kill people, but people do, and so does blood magic. But then maybe if you are using it, maybe you don't care if someone dies because of it. Two, Merrill acts completely naive. Coming back to guns, it would be like giving a loaded gun to a child who was never taught about the dangers of guns - they might just use it to defend themselves, but more than likely they'll kill someone or themselves by accident. 
henioo (da talk page) 03:00, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
- I bet if someone broke into your home and threatened the lives of your loved ones your stance on gun control would flip in a second. Blood magic is not evil. I noticed no rebuttal towards my bringing up of Isseya and to a lesser extent Calien. Two blood mages who were the real heroes of the Fourth Blight. Garahel is only remembered because he's the one the made the sacrifice. In reality it was Isseya that saved tens of thousands of people and gave everything and more to kill the Archdemon. And she was a full blown blood/force mage. Like Calien said in TLF, the most dangerous thing about blood magic is that it's an unknown. Not demons or corruption or whatever other garbage propaganda the White Chantry can come up with. Not to mention how hypocritical the Chantry is when it comes to using blood magic for it's own ends. Just like everything else that is an unknown, until it is properly researched blood magic will remain dangerous. But since the Chantry doesn't allow it to be researched in a controlled environment it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. ---- Soulofshezarr (talk) 07:57, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
- No, I don't live in 'merica, so I really don't support guns. I've lived my whole live in countries that don't allow guns, and I don't see why they should. But that is not the topic of this discussion, so let's not add to it further. ;) More on topic, though, I did say 98%, so there is that 2% that aren't homocidal maniacs (example: Fallstick). But you cannot deny that blood magic is mostly used by bad people, who use the bad powers it offers, like mind control and using others' blood instead of your own.
henioo (da talk page) 12:24, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
- No, I don't live in 'merica, so I really don't support guns. I've lived my whole live in countries that don't allow guns, and I don't see why they should. But that is not the topic of this discussion, so let's not add to it further. ;) More on topic, though, I did say 98%, so there is that 2% that aren't homocidal maniacs (example: Fallstick). But you cannot deny that blood magic is mostly used by bad people, who use the bad powers it offers, like mind control and using others' blood instead of your own.
- Blood magic can be used for good things too, not just violence. Avernus used blood magic to extend his lifespan to hundreds of years. Imagine if he were allowed to teach that to other people too. A whole new blood-mage/healer class of mage could be founded, traveling thedas to extend peoples lifespan when they start to get older. Also, Merrill claims she successfully removed the taint from the mirror (though I guess with no grey warden to test it, we cant say for sure). So imagine if blood mages could travel to Lothering and remove the taint from the soil there. It could speed up recovery after a blight significantly. Personally I believe she succeeded in removing the taint, otherwise one would imagine she probably would have caught it herself after keeping the thing in her house all those years. Drake72 (talk) 09:04, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but this is a fail of an argument. Avernus killed nobles who supported the Theirin king tyrant, who were also against the Wardens. He extended his lifespan by taking it from others. I don't see how that's any good. And as for the taint being removed, it is a lot of speculation. We don't know if (if it was even cleared of the taint) it was the blood magic that did it, or the demon who used Merrill to create a portal out of the Fade. Demons are very powerful, it is not inconcievable to think they can manage cleansing of tainted objects.
henioo (da talk page) 12:24, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but this is a fail of an argument. Avernus killed nobles who supported the Theirin king tyrant, who were also against the Wardens. He extended his lifespan by taking it from others. I don't see how that's any good. And as for the taint being removed, it is a lot of speculation. We don't know if (if it was even cleared of the taint) it was the blood magic that did it, or the demon who used Merrill to create a portal out of the Fade. Demons are very powerful, it is not inconcievable to think they can manage cleansing of tainted objects.
- "And as for the taint being removed, it is a lot of speculation"... Not really. The last 13 griffons in Thedas are only alive because Isseya removed the taint from the eggs with blood magic. That's not speculation. It's fact. ---- Soulofshezarr (talk) 19:03, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
WOW it seem that peoples cant help but bring this topic back every so often : blood magic for or against it ? ( because really peoples merril is only periphiraly related this is the true subject ) and there will always two side to this ( metaphoricale ) battle : those who believe that it is a dangerous yet worthy of study type magic ( they remind me of peoples who play with gun because they are cool totaly headless to the fact that they could shout themselve in the head ) and there are those who believe that it is the most evil aberation in all of creation ( they remind me of those peoples who live by there faith precept so strongly ( some might say blindly ) that if they're scriture were to tell them that the earth is plane they would believe it without question regardless of the truth ) and both side asault each others by way of codex entrie and others pieces of lore that are embigue at the best of time ( many are biased or could be interpreted in a number of different way ) but the real problem is that as long as the devs wont come out and tell us why exactly they want us ( the player ) to think that blood-magic is bad then this battle will remain forever pointless DragonInquisitor (talk) 15:50, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
- Good summarization, am I right in believing you're the middle ground (if such exist)? Caspoi (talk) 16:24, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
- "those who believe that it is a dangerous yet worthy of study type magic ( they remind me of peoples who play with gun because they are cool totaly headless to the fact that they could shout themselve in the head )"
- This is a terri-bad analogy. Firearms are utilized globally and universally by governments and militaries. In my own personal military experience I've never seen someone shoot themselves in the head on accident. Why? Because we're trained to use weapons properly. LOL fail ---- Soulofshezarr (talk) 19:09, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
I dont know about middle ground but i remember that a fews month ago i was the original poster of a very similar topic ( sorry i cant remember the title right now ) and it quickly devolve into a intensly hot flame war ( even today part of me still think it was a colosal mistake ) but being the conflict hater that i am i'd like to see an end to that war ( part of me would like for the devs to pay us (this wiki ) a regular visit to withness our debate and try to come up with oficial answers that would put a definitive end to this and some others ceaseless war sadly i dont think it is to be any time soon )DragonInquisitor (talk) 17:30, October 16, 2014 (UTC)
- I can't imagine that the devs are likely to take a definitive stance on this. The uses and potential abuses of magic are a central discussion point in the game, and the text of the game presents evidence for both sides of the debate. They want players to take different sides on this. It's part of the reason they've moved away from the story of the Wardens in DA2 and Inquisition; the threat the Wardens face is so apocalyptic that any means can be justified to defeat it. However, the spawn only pop up every couple hundred years or so, while demonic possession is something that happens everyday in this world. My own interpretation of blood magic, FWIW, is that it's very powerful but the risks are too great to justify in all but the direst circumstances. Even then, the power it lets you wield is seductive and addictive, and the number of times it doesn't lead to heinous abuses can be counted on one hand. However, the chantry's absolute prohibitions on magic cause more problems than they solve. Mages aren't trained to have a good sense of their power or their limits, which is equally harmful. Not to mention that piling them all in a handful of tower makes it far more likely that a cascade demonic possession event to occur. Luper567 (talk)
I'm not good with all chat acronyme what does FWIW mean ? if you cant or dont want to answer me here you can do it on my talk page for more discrestion ok ! DragonInquisitor (talk) 18:49, October 16, 2014 (UTC)