In thedas do they accept homosexuality and bisexuality? P.S. forgot account password currently Anonymous
Generally, it would seem that a variety of sexual orientations is indeed broadly acceptable, at least in the cultures we've seen so far (ie. they may feel differently in the Anderfals or Nevarra or Tevinter than we've seen in people from Ferelden/Orlais/Free Marches/Antiva). There also seems to be broad gender equality as well with the exception of the Orlesian-based Chantry, which permits only women to become full-fledged priests (Mothers). It seems Andraste and her subsequent Divines somehow managed to avoid laying those little guilt-trips on society... ;-) Qalan (talk) 05:09, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
Everybody seems too busy hatin on mages and elves to worry about homo and bisexuality. Once that settle down and people start looking for something new to hate on. That is if a mage doesnt invent magical abortion which would imediately send the chantry running to hate on. Blighter (talk) 06:40, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
- For all their similarities, the Chantry is not the Christian Church. We have no evidence that suggests they'd object to abortions. The Chant of Light seems to preach the importance of being a good person in order to help bring about the Maker's return. It has little to say on hot-button real world issues. Kestrella (talk) 08:33, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
What little evidence we have about Thedas' attitude to homo- and bisexuality comes from those few homosexual relationships we've seen in-game.
- Leliana isn't exactly obvious about her advances toward a female Warden but is very open when stating that she loved Marjolaine. She doesn't flirt with a male Warden of her own accord, which can mean one of two things. She either has a very strong preference for women or she felt the need to make her interest known because she's not sure a female Warden would make her feelings clear even if she was interested. The second option indicates flirting with someone of the same gender who's not inclined that way can be perceived as an offense.
- Zevran is an obvious flirt with both genders, but mentions past relationships with men as a potential "problem" that may put a female warden off a relationship with him. It's also possible to reach with shock when he starts flirting with a male Warden, at which point Zevran's dialogue suggests Antiva is more open-minded about same-sex relationships than Ferelden.
- Anders neglects to mention his relationship with Karl if Hawke is female. If male Hawke initiates flirting he reacts with surprise and says he's met very few men who are so straightforward in approaching another man.
- Isabela is every bit as open about her past relations as Zevran and doesn't seem to think male Hawke will consider her occasional attractions to women a problem. Then again she's not angling for a relationship initially. I've never played through her entire romance so I'm not sure if she ever brings it up.
- I don't think Fenris can be considered a reliable source with his amnesia and disregard for social graces in general. Same goes for Merrill with her seemingly life-long inability to understand social rules.
- Wade and Herren are glaringly obvious and their business doesn't seem to suffer for it.
- Oghren seems to find Branka cheating on him easier to live with once he finds out he didn't have the "proper equipment" for her tastes. This suggests lesbianism among dwarves is considered very real and an acceptable reason for refusing a husband. And he seems to think two women together is hot.
- When the Warden offers to bed Isabela none of the companions present have anything negative to say based on her being female. Same deal with male Hawke offering to bed Zevran.
So with all the evidence put together I'd say homo- and bisexuality is generally accepted. Though some people object to it, objection is based on cultural norms rather than religion. Same-sex relations between women appear to be more acceptable than between men. This is true for all species. Possibly this is due to some notion of emasculation associated with male-male relationships (note Gamlen's remark about "who's the girl" if male Hawke hooks up with Anders or Fenris). Flirting with someone of the same gender (in Ferelden only it seems) is expected to be more subtle, otherwise it may be considered offensive.
I would speculate that among the Dalish it's less accepted because they have such a strong need to repopulate. And among the city elves because a large part of their culture is based on exchanging people between alienages through marriage (the city elf isn't given a choice about who to marry, after all). Both human and dwarven nobles have the issue of continuing the family blood line, so I imagine homosexuality in an oldest child is not acceptable. Possibly younger children are allowed to do whatever they like unless their elder sibling is unable to rule, in which case they'd be expected to take over the business of baby-making.
The Qunari are an entirely separate issue. I strongly suspect they reproduce when their leaders tell them to and refrain from intimacy of any kind otherwise, which makes sexual orientation a non-issue. Kestrella (talk) 08:32, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
If only there was the same tolerance in the real world but on the topic there doesnt seem to be much concern for sexuality but i doubt the Qunari have a sexuality and Bi/homo sexuality is probably disliked in the Dalish community but not frowned upon as the Dalish regard love quite highly--Emowolf07 (talk) 11:10, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
I would like to make a simple arguement for the Qunari and that is we have not seen their culture function, we mearly have the opinions of their warriors, which you can learn the basic principals, but it's hard to imagine that it's so black & white. Though the whole society imbues a sense of over-controled socialism. Just Like the other cultures the only societies that I can say for sure how they operate is Fereldan and Kirkwall (Not the Free Marches).Sir Fritz (talk) 11:24, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
- From what I can tell Qunari society is so tightly controlled it seems extremely unlikely they don't control who has children with whom. As far as real-world comparisons can be applied it resembles Communist China far more than socialism. Kestrella (talk) 11:40, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
It also seems that when it comes to nobles then as long as you produce legitimate offspring they don't care what you do on the side (since political marriages rarely begin with love or even develop into love... Or so I understood it. --Ser Mea (talk) 12:45, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
- In Orlais certainly, it was the worst-kept secret in Thedas that the Orlesian assigned to the Ferelden throne during Maric's rebellion only got the post because he pissed off his lover (the Emperor) XD I'm not sure about Ferelden, but since the Landsmeet regarded Alistair as a potentially legitimate heir I'm guessing what happens out of wedlock isn't important in the grand scheme of things. Kestrella (talk) 13:33, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
- I think you're reaching there - Alistair is 'acceptable' as a possible heir ONLY because there is no one else alive from the Theirin bloodline (I believe the Orlesians killed everyone else off except Maric and his descendents)/ Even so that still does not stop some nobles from grumbling about it in the Gnawed Noble Tavern before the Landsmeet. Remember the careful steps taken to hide Alistair's existence when Cailin was still alive and how both Eamon and Loghain will tell you this was done to protect Queen Rowan's reputation. That the only other candidate is Queen solely because she was married to the previous King and was herself from a family that had only been 'noble' for one generation shows just how desperate a situation Ferelden/The Landsmeet was in. So I really don't think you can use it as an example of general attitudes towards illegitimacy... Qalan (talk) 17:15, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
- I actually have a question about this.. Why would Loghain even have a right to declare himself Anora's regent? Like Anora needs a regent. She is of age, she is legitimate queen, and it's NOT the Salic agnatic succession, where females cannot inherit titles. Of course the army needs a general in times of Blight, but Anora has every right to appoint a general herself as a queen. of course Loghain is obsessed and power-hungry, but he has no legal claims to be a regent. So WTF?-Algol- (talk) 17:25, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
- Further complicated by the fact that one of Loghain's envoys, outside the gates of Orzammar, keeps referring to 'King Loghain'. Now granted he's an idiot, whom we helpfully remove from the gene pool, but it does indicate that at least some of Loghain's followers are confused about the situation too. And as for bringing up the Salic agnatic succession - I'm aware of NO real-world monarchical system that allowed the consort to legitimately succeed his/her spouse, so there's not much point in bringing real-world parallels into this. One possible explanation is that Maric's or Cailin's will/testament may have appointed Loghain regent in the event that there's no direct heir (it's plausible that they'd do so and if I was Gaider doing a ret-con, that's how I'd explain it!). The more probable explanation is that Loghain (who was paying scant regard to the law anyway) simply said it was so and no one had the guts, or was in the position, to argue with him until Eamon and the Warden could challenge him at the Landsmeet. Qalan (talk) 17:56, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
- I was inaccurate about the Salic agnatic succession, my bad. I didn't bring this up for real-world parallels, rather I brought this up to illustrate that in DA gameworld females have the same rights to rule as males do. About the will/testament retcon - wow, that would be really Gaider-style:) That implies either Maric living in blissful ignorance of him having another son (Cailan and Alistair had met personally), or Cailan appointing a legitimate regent, in which case The Warden, Alistair and Eamon are kinda.. usurpers. I guess we'll have to stick with the fact, that Loghain simply did what he did. I could declare myself queen of Antiva, but that doesn't make me such.-Algol- (talk) 18:36, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
- Further complicated by the fact that one of Loghain's envoys, outside the gates of Orzammar, keeps referring to 'King Loghain'. Now granted he's an idiot, whom we helpfully remove from the gene pool, but it does indicate that at least some of Loghain's followers are confused about the situation too. And as for bringing up the Salic agnatic succession - I'm aware of NO real-world monarchical system that allowed the consort to legitimately succeed his/her spouse, so there's not much point in bringing real-world parallels into this. One possible explanation is that Maric's or Cailin's will/testament may have appointed Loghain regent in the event that there's no direct heir (it's plausible that they'd do so and if I was Gaider doing a ret-con, that's how I'd explain it!). The more probable explanation is that Loghain (who was paying scant regard to the law anyway) simply said it was so and no one had the guts, or was in the position, to argue with him until Eamon and the Warden could challenge him at the Landsmeet. Qalan (talk) 17:56, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
- I actually have a question about this.. Why would Loghain even have a right to declare himself Anora's regent? Like Anora needs a regent. She is of age, she is legitimate queen, and it's NOT the Salic agnatic succession, where females cannot inherit titles. Of course the army needs a general in times of Blight, but Anora has every right to appoint a general herself as a queen. of course Loghain is obsessed and power-hungry, but he has no legal claims to be a regent. So WTF?-Algol- (talk) 17:25, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
- I think you're reaching there - Alistair is 'acceptable' as a possible heir ONLY because there is no one else alive from the Theirin bloodline (I believe the Orlesians killed everyone else off except Maric and his descendents)/ Even so that still does not stop some nobles from grumbling about it in the Gnawed Noble Tavern before the Landsmeet. Remember the careful steps taken to hide Alistair's existence when Cailin was still alive and how both Eamon and Loghain will tell you this was done to protect Queen Rowan's reputation. That the only other candidate is Queen solely because she was married to the previous King and was herself from a family that had only been 'noble' for one generation shows just how desperate a situation Ferelden/The Landsmeet was in. So I really don't think you can use it as an example of general attitudes towards illegitimacy... Qalan (talk) 17:15, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
- The obstacle to Anora's claim to the throne was never her gender (or Sophia Dryden could never have been a possible candidate centuries ago) but her lack of blood-ties to the Royal (Theirin) Family. In the novel, The Calling, Maric leaves behind documents appointing Loghain to the Regency on behalf of Cailin (who's still a minor at the time) when he goes a-questing with the Wardens. So the precedent of naming Loghain as Regent was already established long before 9:30 and Loghain may well have used that precedent to claim the Regency again, absent all other heirs to the Theirin bloodline (Cailin being dead and Alistair being presumed dead and unknown to the nobility of Ferelden in any case), until such a time as the Landsmeet recognized Anora's transition from Queen-Consort to Queen-Regnant. Hard to know what Cailin intended - on the one hand he makes no effort to recognize Alistair's Theirin blood, but he does make a deliberate point of sending Alistair to what he thinks will be the safest place on the battlefield. It's a near-certainty though that if Maric and/or Cailin left documentation recognizing the royal descent of Alistair and/or Fiona's son (if they're not one-and-the-same) that Loghian and Anora would have suppressed it. And, finally, it's pretty clear that the Landsmeet does, in fact, recognize Loghain's claim to the Regency as legitimate because it's only when the Warden can demonstrate that Loghain has been acting illegally (i.e selling elves into slavery, removing apostate blood-mages from Chantry supervision, imprisoning nobles without due process, etc.) that the Landsmeet votes to depose Loghain! Anyway, we've moved completely off the OP's topic now! LOL Qalan (talk) 19:41, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
- To awnser about Loghain using THe BLight Crisis to apoint himself regent because he's a general. I am fully confident that Anrora would make a fine general, but Loghain is the Hero of the Riverdane. Everyone knows that Maric merely inheirited the throne, Loghain freed Fereldan.CrowInvictus (talk) 02:53, November 23, 2011 (UTC)
- Codswallop. Loghain may have been the 'Hero of the River Dane' but Maric was "Maric the Savior" and the evidence is clear that he was pretty universally loved in Ferelden, not just for his role in ending the Orlesian Occupation but his just and fair rule afterwards. Even Rendon Howe is extremely complimentary about Maric in the Cousland Origin, and that's pretty much the only time Howe compliments anybody. Anyway, the original question was what right/justification did Loghain have for making himself 'Regent' as opposed to 'General' the title he already had under Maric and Cailin! Qalan (talk) 02:36, November 24, 2011 (UTC)
- To awnser about Loghain using THe BLight Crisis to apoint himself regent because he's a general. I am fully confident that Anrora would make a fine general, but Loghain is the Hero of the Riverdane. Everyone knows that Maric merely inheirited the throne, Loghain freed Fereldan.CrowInvictus (talk) 02:53, November 23, 2011 (UTC)
- The obstacle to Anora's claim to the throne was never her gender (or Sophia Dryden could never have been a possible candidate centuries ago) but her lack of blood-ties to the Royal (Theirin) Family. In the novel, The Calling, Maric leaves behind documents appointing Loghain to the Regency on behalf of Cailin (who's still a minor at the time) when he goes a-questing with the Wardens. So the precedent of naming Loghain as Regent was already established long before 9:30 and Loghain may well have used that precedent to claim the Regency again, absent all other heirs to the Theirin bloodline (Cailin being dead and Alistair being presumed dead and unknown to the nobility of Ferelden in any case), until such a time as the Landsmeet recognized Anora's transition from Queen-Consort to Queen-Regnant. Hard to know what Cailin intended - on the one hand he makes no effort to recognize Alistair's Theirin blood, but he does make a deliberate point of sending Alistair to what he thinks will be the safest place on the battlefield. It's a near-certainty though that if Maric and/or Cailin left documentation recognizing the royal descent of Alistair and/or Fiona's son (if they're not one-and-the-same) that Loghian and Anora would have suppressed it. And, finally, it's pretty clear that the Landsmeet does, in fact, recognize Loghain's claim to the Regency as legitimate because it's only when the Warden can demonstrate that Loghain has been acting illegally (i.e selling elves into slavery, removing apostate blood-mages from Chantry supervision, imprisoning nobles without due process, etc.) that the Landsmeet votes to depose Loghain! Anyway, we've moved completely off the OP's topic now! LOL Qalan (talk) 19:41, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
Qalan - Actually Catherine the Great acquired the Russisan throne by being married to the previous Tsar - she was originally German or Austria and changed her name to sound more Russian. So Anora does have historical precedent - actually Anora and Catherine the Great would probably have got on very well.
Ser Pedantic
- Pedantic - Catherine didn't succeed her husband so much as lead a coup d'etat to depose him and that resulted in his death at the hands of her supporters. Moreover, despite her birth origin, Catherine was always careful to portray herself as a 'Romanov' to the point of claiming that her (hated) husband had fathered her child and successor, who was to (and did) continue the Romanov 'line'. Yes, there are one-off cases where a consort seizes power (as Catherine I, wife to Peter the Great, also did), but in those cases, there's a child of the 'blood royal' waiting to inherit (something completely lacking in Anora's case). Also, if you read what I said, which was "I'm aware of NO real-world monarchical system that allowed the consort to legitimately succeed his/her spouse", the key words being system and legitimately succeed. And I still stand by that. Qalan (talk) 21:20, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
- During the turmoil after the male line of the Premyslid dynasty of Bohemia went extinct, one of the claimants got hold of the throne through the marriage with the Dowager Queen, rather than one of the daughters, like the guy before and after him. Had he not died of cholera or whatever during a campaign, his claim might have held. - This, of course, does not disprove your point; rather, it seems that in times of need, mere presence in the vicinity of the throne can serve as a basis for the claim. --Ygrain (talk) 06:00, November 22, 2011 (UTC)
In The Calling there's the relationship between Julien and Nicolas, which I get the impression lead to surprise at most, but never really shock. It remains, however, that there appears to be no gay marriage in Thedas. And let's not forget that Herren's a desire demon! :) - Wandrew (talk) 10:25, November 22, 2011 (UTC)
It is important however to remember that Herren being a Desire demon is not canon according to WoG YGuy (talk) 11:35, November 22, 2011 (UTC)
I think DA2 implies that the Qunari may also engage in homosexual relationships. Saemus's interactions with... Ashaad was it suggest that they were doing something more than just keeping each other company. Heck, that Winter's mercenary woman implies as much. I suspect that with the Qunari homosexual (and definitely homosocial) interactions would be largely ignored since there's no risk of a child coming from the union. --Serge W Desir Jr (talk) 19:44, November 22, 2011 (UTC)
- Or Serah Ginnis may just have a dirty mind incapable of accepting that one can have relationships without sexual overtones. Personally, I didn't get much of a sexual 'vibe' from the relationship between Saemus and Ashaad. I think it was more of a 'Mentoring' kind of thing and Saemus encountering and responding to someone, probably for the first time, who didn't give a crap that he was the 'Viscount's son' or 'future-ruler-of-Kirkwall'. If there was sex involved (and that's a BIG 'if', IMO) then I think it was very much secondary to Saemus' need to find someone who saw him for what he was, rather than who his father was. Qalan (talk) 21:22, November 22, 2011 (UTC)
- Didn't get the vibe myself, but I'll keep an eye out next time. Would tie in nicely with the whole Spartan agoge thing the Qunari have going, too. - Wandrew (talk) 09:13, November 23, 2011 (UTC)
From what I've seen in the games, I'll say that nobody cares either way. --Isolationistmagi (talk) 21:24, November 23, 2011 (UTC)
Qalan I am hapyy to stand corrected it improves my historcial knowledge. Ser Pedantic