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So,I have been thinking for a while, and I am worried about the cumbersome amount of spoiler tags we are currently employing (in case you are wondering, there are about 400 floating out there). I have been looking at different sites for ideas on how they do it. Here is what I found:

  1. No spoiler tags. Plain and simple. I typically agree with this view; however, it's hard to use the wiki as a true guide for an initial playthrough (I only discovered some things once I saw them on here) if there are no spoiler tags. But at the same time, it relieves the wiki of having to comb through each and every page to discern what a spoiler actually is.
  2. Spoiler tags up for a week after game release. This seems like a good idea, but not many people can beat the game in a week.
  3. Spoiler tags up for a month. I haven't seen a wiki use this yet, but this has been floating around in my head. It gives users ample time to play the game and use the wiki as a guide. Yet, I know of some people who are just now starting.
  4. Spoiler tag up for 6 months after game release. This seems the best and the farthest I am truly willing to go. It's hard to for people to find leverage when complaining about spoilers when 6 months have passed.
  5. Leave them up forever. I really don't like this idea. If we take a look at game guides people buy, there are usually no spoiler warnings (none in the ones I have bought). The concept of a guide is to provide all information; I just believe a wiki is burdened by such a restrictive policy. And imagine the wiki after three games are released... there would be so many spoiler tags.

So, what are your thoughts? After there is some discussion, I will create a formal proposal so it can be implemented. Max21 (talk | contr) 17:26, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

If people visits a page like this, well what are they exspecting, a forum with gamediscussion and several thousand pages about a game. Of course there are spoilers, and if someone dont like spoilers, well then there is other pages(i guess the bioware forum would be an option). --62.107.57.12 (talk) 20:17, June 12, 2010 (UTC) (PeterR)

What kind of information are people looking for when they visit this wiki and want information that isn't a spoiler? --Inverness (talk) 22:36, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

It is a hard question and while I understand the point of the initial poster, I must say remind the readers that a game isnt something that expires or becomes undesirable after a while, so the idea of a player starting this (or any) game for the first time years after it's released is not farfetched at all, I myself only bought Mass Effect (the first one) 2 months ago, and the sequel is already here. Just because I took a long time to find time to play a game, does it mean I don't have the right to be able to consult a wiki for reminders on who secondary characters are or plot points I did not understand, without the fear of knowing who dies at the end because I read just alittle too far?

IMO, I think the spoiler tags are usefull, but I also understand how bothersome they can be for those who actually have direct input on the wikia, so I would suggest a compromise where the tags are taken down, and instead, the events described are separated in sections, named according to the quest or book where they take place. As an example, in the article for Tamlen, instead of having all the DAO events concerning him under a spoiler tag, simply have a section called "Dalish Origin" dealing with his role in the dalish origin and a second section simply named "Post-Origin", dealing with the second encounter with Tamlen (ok, maybe this wasnt the best example since this encounter takes place outside any questline, so Post-Origin is the best I can come up with, but should we re-encounter Tamlen in the Brecillian Forest, the section could be then named "Nature Of The Beast", I hope I made my point clear.)--Neomidgar2 (talk) 23:31, June 12, 2010 (UTC)


I have to say, I can understand the site administrator's burden of having to track every article and post and mark "spoilers" vs summaries or descriptions. I know I don't usually come here (or any other game wiki) just for giggles. I come because I'm stuck. If I can't figure out what I need by reading the wiki page, then I post a question on the forum. It seems like it might be more cumbersome to try to move information around and link it back into a main article than to cover spoilers.


I could see where that could be sort of annoying to a reader as well, linking from article to article to finish 1 story line (keeping Tamlen as the example...meeting him twice after your origin, once with the Gardian and once in camp...both of those are spoilers that belong to him as a character, but are parts of other locations and quests...it's much easier to have them with him as a spoiler than to go hunting for that info elsewhere.)


Sometimes I come just for info to help me build background for the RPG game I'm playing through. I enjoy having the lore and other "game universe" information easy to find along with the info from all of the various Dragon Age projects out so far. (Even when I have to overlook the continuity errors...lapses...lackings...). I'm not certain, but perhaps if people don't want spoilers...don't read and just keep playing? Ozena Lyn (talk) 00:02, June 13, 2010 (UTC)


I think that the spoiler tags are mostly unnecessary, in that most of the people here want spoilers, i.e. additional and needed information. I don't think that the time limits on them would be helpful at all. I'm not sure how many people really use this as a refresher, most needed information is in the codex. You could accomplish much of the same by simply grouping the information in a slightly different way. Time wise is one way, but you could also do it by question and answer. If you need background you have that section, related quests, romance options, endings and how to achieve them. that way you can go directly to the information needed and someone isn't spoiled, they only read the section they want. Mark them clearly and separate from the others. Just an idea. --Lady Kathlyn (talk) 00:16, June 13, 2010 (UTC)


The nifty spoiler tags were probably what struck me as most awesome when I first started browsing this wiki. I'm a relatively new and quiet member here, however, so I'm not sure how much my 2 cents are worth :). - wandrew (talk)

When the new spoiler tags (which I like too) were implemented it was decided to remove spoiler tags from quests altogether, with the idea that people would expect to see a walkthrough under a walkthrough heading. I wouldn't be adverse to extending that idea to all pages and implementing a time period. Six months seems good to me. Though I agree with the points made by some of the above posters that we need to continue to make sure that articles are formatted in a way that makes it clear what people are reading (i.e. removing spoiler tags doesn't give people carte blanche to suddenly rewrite Loghain's introduction to say he is a traitor than can be executed for his crimes). Friendship smallLoleil Talk 01:04, June 13, 2010 (UTC)
I can include this in the MoS I am putting together. Spoilers should only be under a heading such as "Involvement". Perhaps we could us some CSS with the tags instead, by taking the current tags a step further. However, I don't want to overcomplicate the problem. I think 6 months is good. Blegh, it's just iffy. I don't mind them, but when you start using a big tag for a line in a list, it get's kind of obtrusive. Perhaps we can make a smaller spoiler tag for those? Just about 12px high with no image? I think I would be willing to keep the tags if that was implemented. Max21 (talk | contr) 02:16, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with that as well. I wouldn't want to see articles turn into something that ruins a newbie's playthrough when they just wanted a little background information. Ozena Lyn (talk) 01:22, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Personally I don't mind the spoilers... I visited this site many times on my first playthrough and the spoilers NEVER bothered me. Just because I read about it doesn't mean that I don't want to see it with my own eyes or have the experience play out for the benefit of my character. I mean if I buy a game guide I can skip to the back of the book and see how it all ends but that doesn't mean I don't want to beat the game. If knowing how the game ends was a deterent than NO ONE would play a game more than once and I have personally played through DAO 9 times with various characters and origins. Just my opinion but I find the spoiler tags annoying personally... --70.15.87.89 (talk) 03:16, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Second that --Aedan Cousland (talk) 03:40, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

My brother actually uninstalled the game because he thought that I spoiled the whole game before I even finished it. I spoiled only half the game. I don't mind it, though sometimes it doesn't minimize when I click it.--MasterMage (talk) 03:58, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I myself started using Wiki only AFTER i finished the game for 1st time. What i needed Wiki for were dialogs of companions. I wanted to see the outcome for every dialog option without me having to reload game everytime i run onto unwanted dialog course. I found spoilers on this Wiki clearly stated and marked, so if somebody don't want to read it, than don't unfold it. Wheres the problem? It's all about individuals. You can't satisfy all.Cheers!--Markurion (talk) 06:02, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

If you try to satisfy everyone, you'll never satisfy anyone. I say go with either the Month or 6-Month option. After that, just remove the tags.

Also, I'd like to note that the spoiler tags don't work properly for me. When the page loads, the are all open. Clicking on them actually closes them, but I have to do that manually. I never bother, as I've completed the game several times, but what's the point of having the spoiler tags if they don't start off closed? 09:11, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

From what I have experienced, clicking it once keeps it open across the entire site. I think it is saved within your personal CSS via your browser. Max21 (talk | contr) 09:27, June 13, 2010 (UTC)
Yup. Open a tag, and it will stay open whenever you enter site. Some will be closed but still....--Markurion (talk) 14:09, June 13, 2010 (UTC)
I experienced this too. It kinda threw me until I understood what was going on. But then, the cat is kinda out of the bag by that time. On the plus side, these spoiler snippets are what got me to buy both books. LegionnaireScout (talk) 01:05, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

IMHO: Keep the tags with no time limit, but introduce smaller tags and keep certain pages tag-free

I think Max21's smaller spoiler tag idea is a good one. Would make things much easier on occasions where it is just not very pragmatic to seperate spoiler from non-spoiler informations, like the aforementioned lists.

About spoiler tags in general, I don't really like the idea of giving a time limit and agree with what Neomidgar2 said. People will (hopefully) still buy and play the game months and years from now (I know I did with other games like e.g. the original KOTOR). I also think that removing them is not a good idea. One of the things I love about this wiki, is that it is relatively save to browse through its articles without risking "spoilapocalyptic" revelations about things you really didn't want to know in advance.

Of course, like Loleil pointed out, when reading any kind of walkthrough people should expect spoilers, because that's really kind of the point of a walkthrough. Therefore quest pages (or other pages that one would expect to have mostly spoiler information, like e.g. the Epilogue pages) should not have spoiler tags (although people should still try not to give away plot information that is not necessary for the quest). On other pages, I think editors should try, if possible, to put all spoiler information in one section to avoid a multitude of tags. If that's not practical, the smaller spoiler tags that could be integrated into a paragraph of text would be a good alternative. --M.harmless (talk) 16:44, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

I like the smaller tag idea if it can be placed inline and if opening one doesn't leave the whole lot dangling in the breeze. I've come across many pages where there was information that I thought might be spoilers, but were not tagged, and it's made it a bit puzzling knowing where to draw the line. LegionnaireScout (talk) 01:05, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

I made {{SpoilerSmall}}, but it isn't exactly functioning correctly. I need to figure out some issues, but I need to take a break from it because it's getting all fuzzy. Haha Anyone else, feel free to mess with it. Max21 (talk | contr) 02:12, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

I am afraid that a blanket policy of spoilers just cannot be applied here, there are many types of spoilers. Some need to always be there, some can be eliminated like in walkthroughs, and others can be eliminated by linking to walkthroughs. An example of the former is in the companions page where loghain is listed. An example of the latter is when instead of saying he can be executed link to the landsmeet quest page where this information already exists, and anyone who wants to read ahead can, with no worry of spoilers in the page about his character, just put a spoilers warning on the link itself. The middle type is self explanatory. I believe the best way to deal with spoilers is to seperate the pages into categories, like all pages about characters have certain rules about spoilers, all walkthroughs have different rules, and general information a completely different set of rules. Just a thought.

Yeah, that's what we already are doing... Max21 (talk | contr) 15:23, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

This is a wiki. Spoilers are expected. DAWUSS (talk) 03:13, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

New template?

So I have fixed a little bit, but there are some issues. For instance.

If I want to say something in a line with the spoiler,
 
Click here to reveal possible spoilers.
I have to start with the spoiler warning otherwise it will break the line. I haven't found a solution for this yet.
 
Click here to reveal possible spoilers.
Then we have indenting. It works, but the line must be cleared in order for it to work correctly.

You can try messing with the bullet points, but they spaz out whenever I try to use them. Max21 (talk | contr) 15:23, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

My more collected thoughts

After having a bit more of look through the comments here, I'm happy to see I'm largely in agreement with the comments. Here's what I'm thinking at the moment:

  • Spoilers are usually left up for six months after the release of a game, book, etc.
  • Flashy tags are used for the six month period, after that we switch to the Spoiler Small for anything that needs to remain
  • Spoilers should be confined to clearly labelled sections

Friendship smallLoleil Talk 08:11, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

Spoilers have never bothered me, but I know quite a few people who -hate- them and get quite perturbed at seeing them. And not everyone is going to play the game within 1 week, 1 month, or even 6 months of the game's release. New players should be able to look up a character like Loghain or a place like Denerim without having the game spoiled for them. So it's my recommendation that the spoilers be left in place even after 6 months. On the other hand I readily agree that the current tags take up too much page space and I would be more than happy to see them reduced in size. I'm more than willing to consider an argument regarding why spoilers need to be exposed, but I don't really see any gain in exposing them, aside from reducing page clutter caused by the currently very large spoiler graphics. And page clutter can be dealt with by reducing the size of the spoiler notices as has already been mentioned. All I'm seeing at the moment are the new players who need this wiki the most learning to avoid it after getting burned by spoilers they didn't want to see. Perhaps this is because it is by no means clear to me where the dividing line between spoilers that would be removed and those that would remain should be. -Vim- (talk) 16:21, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more with everything -Vim- said. I don't think a time limit is a good idea. As I said before, one of the things I love about this wiki is its low spoiler-risk. IMO that's an asset that makes it stand out, and that we shouldn't give up unless there is a very good reason.
About the spoiler tag size: I think we should defnitely reduce their width, as they have a tendency to mess with the layout, especially when you don't have a widescreen display and/or don't use a full sized browser window. Also having a uniform size and look for all the different tags (Origins, Awakening, Stolen Throne, The Calling) would make them look neater, especially when they are used on the same page. --M.harmless (talk) 16:47, June 17, 2010 (UTC)


Any interest in adding a title specific spoiler tag for the Green Ronin RPG? I used the Origins tag on that page for lack of knowing anything else to use. Ozena Lyn (talk) 16:50, June 17, 2010 (UTC)


The way this site handles spoilers is SPOT ON, in my opinion. Taking them away, after any time period, would be a negative move. I've played the game through twice and I still enjoy being able to control what I see or don't see. Taking them away after a certain period of time, 6 months for example, isn't a good idea, because as someone mentioned- not everyone plays a game right when it comes out. Though I bought Dragon Age when it first came out because I love RPGs, a large majority of the games that I buy, I get them used. And usually, I get them used after they've been out for a year, so that I can big name titles for around $30. This is all just my two cents, but imo, it ain't broke so don't fix it. I will end by saying that my opinion takes only the website and website interaction into account, and doesn't take into account the fact that the pages need to be combed for spoilers- whoever has to do that job probably has a much different opinion, lol. -Heuristically Programmed

As someone who had things spoiled by this Wiki during my initial playthrough and someone who hates spoilers, I am in favor of leaving the spoiler-hider-things up indefinitely. This Wiki's spoiler-hiding mechanisms are great and I see no real drawback to them (besides having to put them up in the first place). I would be quite disappointed to see all the spoiler-hiders stripped from the Wiki. RobertM525 (talk) 21:27, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Conclusion

I will begin writing up an official policy to detail what we have decided:

  1. Spoiler templates will remain up.
  2. Spoiler templates will be reduced in size to better fit the wiki.

Any further inquiries should be placed on my talk page. An official policy proposal will be the next step. Max21 (talk | contr) 00:55, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

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