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Forums: Index > Game DiscussionOrigins: Making Alistar leave
Note: This topic has been unedited for 3326 days. It is considered archived - the discussion is over. Do not continue it unless it really needs a response.

So I created a new character and I decided that she would be the utter prick of the universe because.....why not?

My approval rating with Alistar is at -100 and he has yelled at me several times. After I let Redcliff get destroyed he damn near burst a blood vessel in his head but he seems to stick around. I wonder if its possible to get him to leave the group. I know several NPCS like Sten and Orgren will challenge you if they get mad enough....is it possible to push Alistar that far?

Dupmeister (talk) 13:37, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

No, Alistair will never leave you during that time because he must always be present at the Landsmeet and even if you can loose him there he will only be replaced by Loghain, whom you can't loose either. Caspoi (talk) 14:57, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

Thats a shame. it would have been interesting to see what the Landsmeet was like without him.

Dupmeister (talk) 15:08, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

Why be an ass?? seriosuly... just because you can??? that sounds kinda childish. --DaveManiac3 15:11, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

People will sometimes play as jerks or "evil" characters in a game for the same reason that a man might play as a woman or vice versa - because they want to play as someone other than themselves. In fact virtually every game provides an opportunity for the player to vicariously experience life as someone else. Games where you can play as another gender, or as an alien or fantasy creature, or as someone who does things that you would/could never do in real life without dire consequences (mean/evil) are simply taking this concept a step further.
To treat a game world as a real world is actually quite childish. Doing things "because I can" is exactly what a game is for. The characters in the game are not real people whose feelings or lives you need to worry about. Feeling bad about being "mean" in a game means you have developed an irrational emotional attachment to something that is just code. That is childish. It's somewhat understandable with games that have very realistic characters like Dragon Age, but people who can separate themselves from the game world and treat it as a playground are treating as it really is - a playground. Where you can be mean without consequence. Where knocking over blocks is not the same thing as knocking over a building. Where making a sand castle and then stomping on it like a giant is not the same thing a destroying a city. Getting emotionally attached to a game is childish. Treating a game as a game is not. Claiming that people who treat a game as a game are being childish is both childish and ignorant. Silver Warden (talk) 20:39, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

well mainly because I wanted to see how the NPCs reacted and how the game might differ if I made different choices then normal. If being being mean to the fictional characters in the video game on my computer somehow offended you then I apologize. Dupmeister (talk) 15:28, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

No offense, just wanted to understand why? never understood why people do that... but your response was cool, I get why. Also, I've stumbled with many players that wanna be mean 'cus they cannot be mean IRL so yeah your response was a great reply.

Sorry for any offense... thought you were the childish kind of gamer --DaveManiac3 16:29, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

No worries.

Part of what I love about games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect and the like is that you can play the game over and over and each time you can get new scenarios and new dialog based on your choices. Although I have always found Alistair to be an annoying character, I always kept him on my good side. so this run though I wanted to see what happned if you didnt get along with him.

Letting RedCliff get trashed was actually a happy accident. I stopped in town simply to get Sten's sword and didn't want to do the RedCliff quest yet. so when I backed out of town I was a little surprised that it actually gets totaled. up until that moment I didn't realise you could do that. Since then I have been seeing what other troubles my mage could get into ;)

Dupmeister (talk) 17:05, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

I liked the idea of turning Alistair into a drunk in DA2 but could never get myself of being such an ass, that's the problem when you're a nice guy... you never feel ok with being an ass.

The only mean thing I did, only because I feel that's what Ferelden needed, is harden Alistair... he becomes a good king from what I read in the epilogue of DA:O --DaveManiac3 19:09, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

So let me get this straight Dave, every one of your playthroughs have basically the same outcome because you can't get yourself to pick different options? Like, in every playthrough you do in Origins Alistair becomes King? You have no curiosity in playing the game in a different way? Just for the sake of appreciating the work Bioware put in the game in the first place? Wow. - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.105.155.60 (talk)

I did one playthrough of the sacrifice with a mage, one of a cousland and another of a Dwarf... made different choices (Like supporting Harrowmond ) but the being an ass options never, I just cannot be an ass in a game 'cus we are heroes and we should live as examples of what the world needs.

Yeah I did explore them either via youtube or actually took them but ended up returning to my original option in a save game.

Finally I love BW, I played their games since they were created as a company. Everything they make is sooooo good but like I said we are heroes not dicks, never understood why someone wants to a dick IRL or in a game.--DaveManiac3 16:28, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

So you play RPGs without understanding the concept of role play? I'd ask why but I think the better question here is how. BTW, watching something on youtube is really not the same as earning that experience yourself, but whatever. Silver Warden (talk) 19:30, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

I had 1 character where I picked the most evil dickhead options I could. Made him a human noble warrior (seemed like the most appropriate). Ugly, mean looking bastard. Ferelden was practically a wasteland by the time I was done with him. I let redcliffe burn. I punched Isolde in the face and killed Connor. Made deals with demons. Let the high dragon/cultists live, Slaughtered the elves and the mages. Supported Bhelen and killed Caridin and Shale. Tainted the ashes and killed Wynne and Leliana. Killed Zevran when he turned on me in Denerim. Would've killed Sten in Haven if he hadn't run away with his tail between his legs. Killed the captive city elves, Had Alistair executed and Loghain died killing the archdemon. Made myself king with Anora as my queen. Can't remember exactly how things went in Amaranthine but I remember most of my companions there were dead or missing by the end too. Killed Morrigan in Drake's Fall. Man, I hated that character. Total scumbag. Vampire Damian (talk) 01:44, February 11, 2015 (UTC)

I tried to do the bad boy character once before. had a city elf rouge who hated humans. wanted him to make all the wrong choices but then he fell for Liliana and the love of a good woman turned him around, reformed his opinion of humans and had him making choices that wouldn't disappoint her.

Dupmeister (talk) 13:16, February 11, 2015 (UTC)

In no world ever is every main character going to be a super-nice person who helps little old ladies across the street or feed the orphans. There will always be a place for the pricks, bitches, crazies, and the apathetic. They change and enrich the worlds in RPGs. To always be a "good guy" gets a bit boring. It doesn't make you an evil person, it just makes you a normal. I've done the same thing Vampire Damian has done, and enjoyed it. Then I went good girl the next time through. That was fun also. Don't be afraid to try something new and stab that crawling wounded soldier in the face today! BlueChaosFaerie (talk) 09:01, February 12, 2015 (UTC)

Killing that soldier if one of the few things I've only done once or twice. Most of the other evil or selfish actions in the game at least have some practical benefit. Killing that guy is just pure sadism. The Warden would have to be a psychopath to do that, and those kind of actions only work for pure chaotic evil characters. It's fun to make one play-through like that, but all of the other extremely selfish or purely pragmatic characters would at least claim that they don't have time to help him. Silver Warden (talk) 19:06, February 12, 2015 (UTC)
I lost track of how many times I used that shiv with that evil character of mine. I remember that soldier, the prisoner in Ostagar, the merchant in Lothering, the rambling crazy guy in Redcliffe, Connor, Genitivi (though I think that was an actual knife rather than that shiv that usually got used) and Morrigan for sure. And that character dated Morrigan and had a kid with her (normal, not old god). She seemed to truly believe he loved her right until he stabbed her. She seemed to have this look of sadness and confusion in her eyes as her body fell back into the eluvian. And this evil prick in that canon is now King of Ferelden, among other titles. I think he was also made Teyrn of Gwaren and obviously Arl of Amaranthine and Warden-Commander of Ferelden. He was far worse than Loghain, Howe, Vaughan and Bhelen put together. Vampire Damian (talk) 00:00, February 13, 2015 (UTC)
I don't think I ever managed to create such an evil character and I have tried quite a few times. Noticable to my characters is that they usually are evil in one area but not another, I suppose that this make them quite complex. Caspoi (talk) 00:20, February 13, 2015 (UTC)
Usually my characters are somewhat neutral. Too far in either direction (good/evil) tends to bug me 1 way or another. Especially in Origins which is great at showing how important perspective is in matters of good and evil. For example, only a city elf (especially female) would know how evil Vaughan Kendalls was. Still having that knowledge from playing as a female city elf, my evil character was the only one who ever let him live. He was 1 of the few characters where it seemed more evil to let him live than to kill him. Vampire Damian (talk) 00:44, February 13, 2015 (UTC)
See, most of those actions have some practical benefit. Killing the prisoner gets you the key without any hassle. Plus he's gonna die away. Making a deal with the Lothering merchant means you can access his store. Killing Connor is the easiest way to complete that quest. Killing Genitivi keeps him from blabbing about your defilement of the ashes. Stabbing Morrigan is of course just revenge. None of that is just murder for murder's sake. (unsigned)
Unless your Warden is both a rapist and child-killer, there's no way he could be worse than Howe or Vaughan. Loghain and Bhelen maybe, as their motivations are paranoia and greed. But Howe and Vaughan are just sadists, and there are no actions the Warden can take which would make him that vile. Silver Warden (talk) 02:19, February 13, 2015 (UTC)
Rapist, no (but only because they didn't give us the option) child-killer, yes. My evil warden only dealt with the Lothering merchant until the chance to kill him came up. Killing Connor I did because killing a child and effectively letting the demon escape seemed like the most evil way to do it. Plus I had already killed Jowan and I hadn't gone into the Circle Tower yet. There really wasn't much hassle in helping the prisoner and yeah he was probably gonna die anyway but as far as my warden was concerned, he just wanted to kill for the sheer pleasure of it. Genitivi I always kill because I don't want Chantry influence to get worse than it already is. Vampire Damian (talk) 21:05, February 17, 2015 (UTC)

I would agree, especially on Vaughan. That is a hard act to top. the man saw Elven woman as property and was so full of self entitlement that no was was above him. He happily rapes your cousin then has the gaul to bribe you to walk away and let him continue on. Aside from Hitler, I cant think of many examples to outdo what Bioware did with that character.

I honestly wonder if the actor felt like he needed to take a shower after recording his lines.

Dupmeister (talk) 13:48, February 13, 2015 (UTC)

Honestly, Howe is worse than Vaughan by far. He has nearly the entire Cousland house slaughtered, plus a bunch of innocent people who were just in the castle at the time. He also tortured people for shits and giggles. There are plenty of racist rapists in the world (sadly), but Howe is of a level of sadistic psychopathy matched only by serial killers and genocidal dictators. Silver Warden (talk) 18:42, February 13, 2015 (UTC)

Not saying Howe wasn't an evil character but all of his actions were orders for others to act out. He did what he did because he was ambitious and greedy. yes he was sadistic but Vaughan on the other hand was vicious an took pleasure in breaking woman. he wasn't happy unless he was actively destroying other people's lives and he did so simply because he could. Both are evil but I personal find Vaughan's breed of evil to be more repulsive. Dupmeister (talk) 01:48, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

Howe was plenty hands on when tortured his prisoners. True, Vaughan was torturing a few elves just for laughs, but it was Howe who had the alienage purged once he took control. The fact he is uses to use other people to commit these crimes just makes him all the more vile. If person A hires a hitman to kill person B, person A is at least as guilty of murder as the hitman is. Howe employed a lot of person As and hurt/killed a lot more person Bs. Vaughan kidnaped half a dozen elves and then gang raped one of them. Howe murdered dozens if not hundreds of people, including innocent children when he massacred the Cousland house and purged the alienage. And that doesn't even begin to cover all the crimes he is responsible for via assisting Loghain, or even how many of those plots where Howe's ideas to begin with.
Vaughan is evil, but in a much more pedestrian way, which probably why you hate him more. As terrible as they are, you can fathom his crimes. Howe is so monstrously evil that it's nearly impossible humanize him to the point where you can feel anything toward him. He's crimes turn him into a violent force of nature. Hating him is like hating the Archdemon or the darkspawn horde. Pointless and inadequate. Vaughan's death at least brings some amount of justice to the elves. A thousand deaths wouldn't be nearly enough for Howe to pay for his crimes. There is no emotion in the human psyche that could capture what should be felt toward Howe, so he can only be reviled on a cerebral level.
Vaughan is a bully. A vicious, disgusting bully who goes about as far as a bully can go before becoming something worse. Howe is a monster. And I mean that literally. The only antagonists in the series responsible for more suffering are the Architect and the Elder One. Silver Warden (talk) 06:19, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

Some good points raised about Vaughan and Howe that make me less sure of my comparison. I wouldn't really count the Architect as evil, he seemed like a well intentioned idiot to me, which would put him in the same category as Harrowmont. Can't say about the Elder One as I haven't played DAI yet.

As for Vaughan's crimes, I'm sure Vaughan kidnapped/raped women from the alienage more than just that 1 time. Can't remember for sure but I think they even said he has a habit of it. IIRC, 1 of them said something about 1 of his victims finding out she was pregnant afterward. She killed herself before the child could be born.

My evil warden was mostly bloodthirsty, insane and mad with power. Short tempered with no patience and trusted no one. He was a berserker, reaver and spirit warrior. I would classify my Warden as a monster as well. They don't really give you the chance to be the type of evil Vaughan was or I would've taken it with that character just to make him that much more evil. Though I likely would've vomited as I did it. I almost vomited just letting Vaughan leave that cell alive.

My warden pretty much finished the job that Howe began in the Denerim alienage. He took Caladrius' offer to use Valendrian and the other captives to increase his power and he killed the rest by telling them to fight during the final battle. He sat back and watched them get slaughtered before killing the darkspawn himself. Perhaps a few escaped before the warden got there but doubtful.

As for using other people to do his dirty work, there were those following the warden and he was the type to kill anyone who disobeyed, which is why most of them died. As for total kill count, I'm not entirely sure of the exact numbers but I know it had to be in the thousands. He let almost everyone in Redcliffe die, Killed Connor (in a manner which allowed the demon to live), killed everyone but Kolgrim and his men in Haven (and let the dragon live, which of course meant the inevitable dragon rampage), killed random people for shits and giggles, let any demon he could live, slaughtered the Dalish clan in the Brecilian Forest (allowing the werewolves to live will also likely lead to more deaths/infections), killed the circle mages, allowed Branka to use the Anvil to make more golems, the aforementioned alienage elf sacrifice, burned Amaranthine and likely more that I'm forgetting.Vampire Damian (talk) 21:05, February 17, 2015 (UTC)

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