Coming from this topic the line you need to know is this I must admit I can sympathize somewhat with 91.192.191.221. It seems to me Duncan is just a wee bit presumptuous:
In one play-through, I was forced into the Grey Wardens against my will; and then, "Drink this blood or I'll kill you. Oh, and I forgot to mention, this blood is a slow working, incurable poison." In the Noble human beginning, Duncan failed to save my father from Howe; he promises to save my Mother in return for my becoming a Warden, and he does not. Indeed, he doesn't even try to persuade her to come with us. He certainly doesn't save me as I am able to use the secret passage in my own home without any aid from Duncan. About the last thing we hear Duncan say is, "Don't worry Your Majesty, the plan will work." A fine example of "famous last words". On the other hand, though Alistair isn't the brightest lad in the world, I can't see any justification for his execution. Nor can I see justification for allowing friends at the Keep to die. Maybe Morrigan will bring me a cure for Duncan's poison in the upcoming "Witch Hunt" episode. -- WarPaint (talk) 22:39, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
Ok Duncan deal to rescue your mother and you was. You had to become a Grey warden. He failed to bring your mother and the door was right there. So having fail to fulfill his obligation why would the Noble still bother. He could of told Duncan to stick and leave. Even if the right of Annulment is done if the part not will, like where most are looking at death or imprisonment. The Noble had nothing to gain from this agreement. I mean the exit was there. He had already done all the work fight to get there. Then Duncan shows up at the end having done nothing to have the right to ask anything of this family.
My main thing is if you where the noble what would of kept you from tell Duncan to stick it?--IceStar100 (talk) 08:21, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
The first thing I'll tell the king at first meeting - "Ok, I have come here to defend Ferelden and I'll join the troops of my brother (he's not here? ok, I can fight in this battles with any others). But Dunkan can recruit someone else, not me". 91.192.191.221 (talk) 08:33, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
Currently playing the Human Noble, so a few thoughts on this: 1] if I cannot persuade my own mother, a Duncan would fare no better. 2] on the role-playing side - given all the heavy fighting (that Howe knight almost killed me), I was exhausted and injured, and even though I would have been able to make it out of the castle on my own, I'd have had hard time escaping pursuers later. It is not mentioned in the game but once Howe found out that I was not among the casualties, he definitely sent men to get rid of the sole surviving witness. - So, I take it that this is how Duncan saved me. On behalf of Ned Cousland, Ygrain (talk) 09:52, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
- You say noting stands between you and your freedom but your wrong Duncan does, and as he clearly proved with Ser Jory he is willing and capable of killing anyone that don't surrender to his will. The Right of conscription is recognised everywhere even if you had escaped from him you would have been an outlaw and you had no family or house to smooth things over.
- In other words, unless you could kill Duncan right there the only other choice would have been dead. Killing Duncan right there would have been difficult even if did have the time which you didn't as Howe's men were closing in, as he had way more experience then you being a seasoned veteran.
- This will of course make you less then inclined to help Alistair in his quest for vengeance, as Loghain's only crime was letting the man who had doomed you die an agonising death and betraying an inept king that properly would have doomed the country.
- Their were so many things wrong with Cailan and Duncan's plan to begin with, for one thing they didn't take advantage of the terrain, fighting the horde on the field when Ostegar still had some very nice walls to defend them.
- If I had been in charge of the battle I would have stationed just a small section of men down on the field, enogh to draw the darkspawns attention, I would have booby-traped the entire area with pointy stiks and pitfalls and once I had lured the horde into position I would have led the mages cast a nice big Storm of the Century on them, we know how powerful that can be from a single mage, fusing the energy together from a dozen mages would making it incredibly powerful.
- this process would be repeated several times and just as the back of the horde have passed, I would flack them with Loghains troops and suprice them with the rest of the force that had been hidden away in reserve, including all the dogs. The Longbowmen I would of course have placed on the walls where they couldn't be reached with mêlée. Their primary targets would of course be the Orgies and the Emissaries which would be the only troops capable of hurting my ranged troops.
- Done right this tactic would decimate the horde before we even engaged them in mêlée -rphb- (talk) 10:37, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
- Not nitpicking, but...err....I think you mean Ogres and not Orgies.....two very different things. Funny though :D IP no. 59.95.169.10 (talk) 11:39, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
- Two things: first, "Loghain's only crime was ... betraying an inept king that properly would have doomed the country". Not that I was particularly impressed by Cailan as a king, but surely there must have been other options to get rid of him that would not require exterminating half an army and bringing the country on the verge of a civil war. In my opinion, that classifies as treason, and I'd be most happy to bring Loghain to justice even if it weren't for the personal side which I mentioned elsewhere (Forum:Betraying Anora). Second, though you're right that the terrain in Ostagar was not efficiently used and you have a point about stationing bowmen on the walls, taking up the defence of a ruin is not so easy. Every breach in the wall is extremely difficult to defend if you are under full siege and in Ostagar there would have been too many weak spots. Besides, you could easily become entrapped there and should the darkspawn get inside like they did in Ishaal, your position within the walls would actually become more dangerous than in the open field because your maneuverability would be limited. Ygrain (talk) 12:18, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
This entire topic makes no sense whatsoever. 'Of Noble Birth' is a side-quest that becomes available if a Male Dwarven Noble slept with Mardy; it's got nothing to do with the Human Noble Origin. Not only that, but you're jumping all over the place (Alistair's execution at the end of the game, Awakening and having to choose between Amaranthine and Vigil's Keep, etc.). I'd make some comment about your train of thought, but there is none; you're jumping from topic to topic at random, and have no common idea to connect them. What does Duncan have to do with Alistair's Execution? Or with Awakening? Nothing, as far as I can tell, but you throw them in there anyway. It's confusing as hell. Swk3000 (talk) 10:39, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
You didn't read it all did you. That was Warpaint's post. I was showing the main post of where the though sprung up. So most of what you just said has to do with someone else post.
Now I can see Duncan forcing it but sooner or later my noble would of been rested. Not to say he just would not have taken off. The whole Human Noble seems flawed to me. Plus as far as the outlaw commit. The Cousland are beloved the wardens for right then are held at arms length. Plus After Ostogar there was nothing left to outlaw them.--IceStar100 (talk) 11:52, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
Well, maybe Duncan also had to fight through MANY of Howe's men that were sent to kill him, since Arl Howe knew he was there. This would have prevented him saving your parents. Why wouldn't you want to help Alistair kill Loghain. He has doomed your entire country. That would annoy me too. Plus Loghain then posts Arl Howe as regent. Arl Howe! So, yeah, I think Duncan wanted to help but just couldn't. What was the point of forcing your mum away. She wouldn't move so there was no way to make her. If he had threatened her she would probably just stay anyway and let herself be killed. 78.147.192.182 (talk) 12:38, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
- I agree about Loghain. At worst, he helped Howe set up his plan to take over Highever and kill off the Couslands; at best, he knew about it and decided to promote Howe for accidentally helping him with his secret coup, instead of punishing him for murder. You can't claim he didn't know, because if you persuade his guard to let you talk to him at Ostagar, he tells you that Cailan told him about it, and says that you shouldn't worry, certainly Cailan meant what he said about bringing Howe to justice. He premeditated regicide, either planned or used the death of the whole family of the only other Teryn aside from himself in the land, and attempted to murder the most powerful Arl. He wasn't fooling around, none of these things were coincidence or accidents. And he did it all in spite of weakening his country in the face of the impending Blight.
- When it comes to Duncan... your perspective on that really has a lot to do with how you behave in the origin story. If you're a bit of a glory hound and honor your parents, then you already were interested in being a Grey Warden, and having your father agree to it in his dying moments decides the matter. If you're belligerent and make the choices Warpaint outlined, it seems like you're forced (and a bit unrealistically so, for no good reason, to boot). --Cael Aurion (talk) 15:20, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
A few comments:
- On Loghain: 78.147.192.182 and Cael Aurion make good points. At best Loghain is an Accessory After The Fact in Howe's treachery. One of Cailan's first comments to the Human Noble is that Howe would not be allowed to benefit from his treachery. Even if Loghain didn't know of this specific comment, he did know of Cailan's promise to bring Howe to justice. He also knew that he was, in fact, rewarding Howe for his treachery against the Couslands. Verdict: Guilty.
- On Duncan:
- Although Duncan could have invoked The Right of Conscription, Duncan chose not to do so. In particular, Teyrn Cousland asked Duncan to take Teyrna Eleanor Cousland and the Human Noble daughter/son to safety. At that point Duncan could have refused the Teyrn's request, and could have invoked The Right of Conscription. Instead Duncan agreed to the Teyrn's request and said he must ask for something "in return"; namely, that the Human Noble daughter/son join the Wardens. Duncan thus obligated himself to make a good faith attempt to bring Teyrna Cousland and the son/daughter to safety.
- It is true that the daughter/son could not convince Teyrna Cousland to leave the Teyrn. Duncan, however, remained silent at that point. A reasonable inference would have been that Duncan agreed with the Teyrna's decision. If Duncan had spoken up, the Teyrna would have had to consider Duncan's view that she should get to safety. Teyrn Cousland had already expressed his desire that the Teyrna be taken to safety and likely would have encouraged the Teyrna to leave. The daughter/son likely would have further encouraged the Teyrna to leave. Things could have turned out quite differently. WarPaint (talk) 16:44, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
- Exactly she didn't need to die, and had she been pressed enough she would have gone with her child, she was just too much of a covert, she couldn't face the fact that her house had fallen and was too tired to fight and restore it. Had she been forced away she would, once she had reached a safe place and had time to consider been glad for it. She effectively committed suicide and by remaining silent Duncan endorsed her actions.
- And Duncan did use the right of conscription on my warden. If you do not voluntarily join he forces you to it by invoking the right of conscription that's one thing my warden never forgave him for.
- And to Loghain, well yeas he was the mastermind behind the coup and he is a typical ends justify the means kind of guy. this can be true sometimes (like in the Bhelen case) but not always.
- I have always wondered if the plan would have worked if Loghain had done as he was supposed to, while you are right that using the ruin too much would have been a bad idea, they still could have used the terrain a lot better. Sending a hundred rogues out to booby-trap the whole area where the horde was comming from, is one thing.
- Harassing the horde with bands of bowmen would be another.
- The way they acted was idiotic. they engaged the horde in mêlée they didn't take advantege of the fact that they were an army. Why do you think that an army have lines?
- The mages could have been used way more had they been allowed to fully unleash their powers and with a well coordinated fight a retreat would have been possible had the fight been going badly.
- Remember, the darkspawn didn't surround them, they used a simple frontal attack. A carefully coordinated fight with continues tactical retreats as the mages paralysed and decimated the hordes front lines, would have made everything cleaner. They kept holding their grown even as they were losing hoping for Loghains troops to come to their rescue. But that's not what a flank attack is about, it is to attack an enemy from an extra flank with the intent of piercing their lines, dividing their intentions, and cutting of their path of retreat.
- The behavior of Cailan and the men how fought with him is a clear example of the difference between bravery and foolhardiness.
- They had no main front reserves, no line coordination and had not planed a route of retreat. With such a poor tactical job, which I dare call idiotic I see no reason for why Loghain should not retreat. Seriously have none of them read Sun Tzu's "Art of War" It's been out for 3000 years and it's still a best-seller. (first edition copies are hard to come by though)-rphb- (talk) 18:26, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
Sun Tzu's "Art of War" is a great book but most likly no they have not read it. That book is in our world now they might have something like it but not it.--IceStar100 (talk) 20:32, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
Duncan isn't a perfect soldier nor was there to help you and assist you all the time. As he says many times, the Blight is what matters and must be destroyed at all costs. He won't risk that to save a woman, or to not offend you or to care about your feelings. Even Blood Magic is allowed if Darkspawn are going to be killed. Alessandro de Abreu (talk) 21:26, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
Duncans duty is simple destroy all Darkspawn whatever personal feelings he holds come second too his duty as a Grey Warden.
- Mother, Duncan promised to bring the Teyrna and there child to safety in return for joining the grey wardens and when the teyrna refused to go with them I believe duncan didn't force the issue because its likely that if he brought her with them they may of had to stop somewhere else before joining the army at ostagar.
- Mages?, I did not see one mage participating in the battle with the exception of the mage that follows you to te tower of Ishaal perhaps they were with loghains army?
- Cailen, Was an idealist but also Naive.(a steryotype of idealistic men) Though the orlesian occupation was fresh in Loghains mind (do in part to his extremely nationalistic tendencies)Cailen wrote it off as "a thing of the past" Though this may be seen as ignoring history the fresh perspective to burry the hatchet so to speak with the Orlesians seem like a better foreign policy then Loghains Isolationism and perhaps where Cailen was able to show to Loghain that he would do what he thought was best which is shown where he "forces" him to accept the fact that he will by "threatening" to wait for the orlesian forces if loghain doesnt believe he is able to hold of the darkspawn and not get killed in the process.
- about the battle tactics, Fereldan is a borderline barbarian nation and either the tactics are a reflection of this or the producers wanted to make a cliched epic battle (which I doubt because they seem to have a grasp on military tactics) The battle plan was simple fire archer volleys send the first wave of shock troops (Mabari) Then everyone charge, also the military seemed to lack uniformity whith people fighting with whatever they brought with them, then after clashing with the darkspawn have Loghainhorde attack from the rear circling the darkpawn. Best case scenario Blight is Defeated with heavy casualties, Worst case all men fighting darkspawn for fereldan are killed. What Happend Cailens contingency fought (hopefully to the last man) and Loghains Retreated. Gdubs
About the battle, while I agree that it was a very, very illogical tactical move, you guys are forgetting that Cailan (the man who gets the final word) thought that the battle would be no big deal and would be easily won. While I don't agree with Loghain's actions after the battle, i do see why he would retreat. Cailan acted like a spoiled 6 year old the whole time you are with him. Loghain was once the commander of the rebel army, he had experience and knew what he was doing, but still he should not have abandoned his king.DalishAssassin (talk) 23:42, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
- Loghain didn't retreat strategically, though. He was involved in, and in fact largely in charge of the battle plan, as the veteran war commander and genius battle planner. Abandoning the field at that point (and leaving Cailan to die) was premeditated. You can't really argue to the contrary; this was clearly part of a larger coup. Consider Arl Eamon. His attempted assassination, admittedly Loghain's doing, was set in motion before Ostagar. It's also highly unlikely that the similarly timed destruction of the Cousland line was coincidental. --Cael Aurion (talk) 03:10, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
Not sure how we got from Duncan failing in his duty, to Loghain's motives. As far as Duncan in the Noble Origin is concerned. He was at the castle to to recruit. Ser Gilmore was not his first choice. Your M/F was. When Howe attacked, he was locked in the castle and in battle with Howe's men as was the character. If you talk with Bryce he says that Duncan found him and brought him to the larder. Duncan went back into the fray to look for the character and mother. Your character just managed to fight your way to the larder first. As far as forcing Teryna to leave her husbands side it was not going to happen. The mother knew they would not make it out of the surrounded castle with her in tow and decided to sacrifice herself to protect the teryn and give Duncan and the M/F to get away. So Duncan's job was to end the Blight and nothing else. not even is allowed to interfere with the City Elven origin when the women are taken by Vaughn. Grey Wardens are neutral. LostInFangorn (talk) 03:45, September 1, 2010 (UTC)LiF
- "The mother knew they would not make it out of the surrounded castle with her in tow and decided to sacrifice herself to protect the teyrn and give Duncan and the M/F to get away" Exactly the point, namely the part about buying the time for her child to escape. I think that Duncan understood that part, as well. Ygrain (talk) 04:50, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
- I've always disagreed with the assumption that she would only slow Duncan and her son down. She did a fine job of getting to Teyrn Cousland with her son, so why all of a sudden is she a burden? They had to leave her behind for the story's sake, but I wish that thought would have been written out. They could have left it that she felt it her duty to defend your escape, etc., but the notion that she would slow you down was pretty weak. LVTDUDE (talk) 05:11, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
- I've seen a mod, but I can not find it now. In it you can order Ser Gilmore to come with you, with coercion you can tell your mother to follow too and if you wish you can tell Dunkan, you are going alone. But after the castle is complete you will be not at Ostragar, but stoped on the road to it. Your mother and Ser Gilmore will be killed anyway (not battle, but dialog script) and without Dunkan you will be killed too. This way of story, when you can choose any variant in better then default one, in my opinion. 91.192.191.221 (talk) 07:04, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
Oh for the love of The Creators I am tired of these things.
Duncan: He's The Commander of The Grey, not an agony aunt, he only concerns himself with one thing: ending the blight. He made a deal with the Teyrn to get his wife and child to safety, in return the child joins The Grey Wardens . The Ternya was not involved in the deal making so she could say she wanted no part of it. She gave her life with honor to ensure the safety of her child and Duncan. Could you imagine trying to get your mother to abandon your father in a time like that?
Cailan: He's a young man, unversed in battle. All his country's victories were won either by his father or Loghain. It's obvious that he's not really strategically minded as shown in the final war council. He trusts Loghain as a General, the man was the Hero of River Dane after all, his strategy, if he'd fulfilled his end, was perfectly sound. How many kings, when going into battle, plan for the "What happens if my finest General, who's known me since I was born and was my father's closest friend, decides to make a play for power?" Not many.
Loghain: Traitor, who abandoned his king because he didn't want Fereldan allying itself with Orlais.
And what does this have to do with 'Of Noble Birth' anyway? --Warden Of The Dales (talk) 07:32, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
- It's true that Loghain's plan was set in motion before Ostegar, he had already decided to let Cailen die before knowing the exact strength of the horde, his motivation was of course that he feared that Cailen was incompetent and only felt loyalty to the throne. While it was true that Cailen was in many way incompetent he was still a young man willing to learn and Anora had been the de facto ruler of Ferelden before Ostegar. Loghain should therefore not have done what he did.
- That he quit the field was maybe the right thing to do, the men that fought with Cailen seemed like they were all fresh conscripted farmers, if that was the general standard of the army they couldn't possibly win.
- I know that Sun Tzu made an army out of the emperors concubines, but even he had to train them first and they didn't really become effective before after he executed their first captains.
- Still I would really like to see a good organized battle throughout the entire game we didn't once see a properly trained military force, everyone fought in mêlée as individuals.
- One good well known tactic is the circle formation. when a groop of 6 to 16 worriers get surrounded by enemies they form a circle. The centre of the circle is clear of enemies and their the vulnerable troops like mages, can cast their spells uninterrupted. The circle formation also prevent any of the men to be backstabbed eliminating the effectiveness of enemy rogues
- With larger groups we can form real lines, again with archers and mages in the back protected by warriors at the front. Mages are just Thedas equivalent of artillerymen.
- Cailen and his men didn’t need to die, had they fought as soldiers are supposed to fight they would be able to make tactical retreats, and yes we didn’t see any mages at the battle even though we know that there were mages present at Ostegar, their talents were not properly utilized.
- Finally the fact that the entire nations fate rested on the shoulder of a single warden only shows the complete incompetence of the normal military forces, a well run nation don’t need heroes. Perhaps that was what the battle was supposed to show us, that Ferelderners don’t know how to fight, every single ally we found was a foreigner of some kind, even arl Eamon’s men were mercenaries. No proper soldiers anywhere.
- It’s a wonder that Ferelden could ever be free of Orlais when so many of the Fereldeners so obviously know nothing at all about how to fight.
- -rphb- (talk) 13:47, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
- Excuse me, but do we know what the military standards of the time truly were? If I'm not mistaken, in early feudal societies the only trained professionals were members of noble households, in the numbers sufficient to keep outlaws and greedy neighbours at bay; for larger-scale conflicts, they conscripted farmers. And there was not much of the battle tactics or strategy, just the use of terrain (if possible). Ygrain (talk) 15:25, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
That army was certainly conscripted farmers, so conscripted in fact that even the commanders must have been so. The tactics I suggest are noting but conmen sense, I'm not a trained tactician I'm a philosophy student for Andrestes sake. If even I can see it, won't you then agree that the way they engaged the enemy was foolhardily and stupid? -rphb- (talk) 15:39, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not exactly a military girl, either - but if the main tactics of the time was "shout and charge", I do not blame them for not being war geniuses. The supposedly brilliant general was just sitting on his ass doing nothing but waiting till he could be sure that Cailan won't make it alive. If, I say IF, there were any battle tactics commonly used at that time and were not employed in that particular battle, then I must suppose that it was a part of Loghain's plan so that he could claim that he "saved" half an army. Ygrain (talk) 16:00, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
- Loghain could not plan that Cailen, Duncan and the men that fought with them were complete tactical imbeciles. We could of course make up the rummer that he drugged Cailen, Duncan and every commander that fought in that battle, reducing their intelligence to around 85, but I think that would have been to complex for even Loghain.
- The truth of the matter is that the developers wasn't able or didn't bother to make a fight scene where actual tactics are used. A large Mêlée battle is no more complicated then two person duel duplicated and copied x number of times, but a truly organized battle requires that the npc's are able to work as a team, not merely doing different things to the same enemy but fighting as a single being. This is true tactic, the army becomes one, each soldier one brick in a wall of steel. I think an actual film sequence would have been better then trying to use the games engine to show this battle, for unless they wanted us to see how incompetent they truly were it didn't work at all.-rphb- (talk) 16:44, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
- What I'm trying to say is that both you and me, though not military persons by profession, still posses a vast amount of background knowledge from games, films, books etc. If Cailan et al. grew up in a society where warfare consisted mainly of mob tactics and leaving a part of your forces in ambush was a top strategic idea, you can't really expect them to act otherwise.Ygrain (talk) 17:22, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
Actually, the tactics used at Ostagar are actually similar to the tactics of Alexander of Macedon. You pin the enemy on your infantry and then send in the heavy cavalry (or Loghain's forces) to hit them on the flanks. However the battle depends on the second force, which is probably why Loghain used it as it was the perfect way to get rid of Cailan, while making it seem like an effective strategy. Also, the person who said the evidence that one hero can save Ferelden shows the weakness of its military? A hero is supposed to be able to do that, because they're HEROES! If Achilles was just a run-of-the-mill soldier then The Iliad would've quite boring.--Warden Of The Dales (talk) 20:36, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
- The Iliad was fantasy, but yea I kind of contradicting myself now aren't I?
- And Alexander of Macedon? you mean Alexander the Great why not name him with his most famous suffix. It might work if it was something good old Alexander did (or young Alexander for didn't he die when he was like 30?).
- But it just seems so disorganised and risky, if the plan failed both forces would be annihilated and I can't see how it would be done without heavy casualties, shock troops always result in heavy casualties. With a more orderly fight and more strictly held lines it would be possible to retreat if everything didn't go as planed. A force locked in mêlée can't retreat, it's all or nothing, and I don't like to gamble like that. Some of you may be into Russian Roulette but I'm not, you risk too much for too little.
- And Ygrain it may not be possible for us to agree on this, but I thought that what I suggested was more or less self evident, you utilises the forces better that way, anyone should could see this, a priori. -rphb- (talk) 21:06, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
Yeh sorry 'bout that, I'm a Classical Civilizations scholar so I always call him Alexander of Macedon. But yes I did mean Alexander The Great. It may be risky but when you have good shock troops (Alexander's companion cavalry/ Loghain's army) victory is nearly almost assured. Alexander frequently used this tactic and nearly never lost. --Warden Of The Dales (talk) 21:52, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not that much into history, as I said I'm not a historian I'm a philosopher. But one thing I am sure of is that he army that attack the front, the army Cailan and Duncan was a part of can't be anything but bait, easily replaceable bait that It would hardly matter if you lost. The bulk of the army would then do a flank attack, and devastate the enemy.
- However please tell me how this tactic could be successful without sacrificing the bait force. It seems almost certain that the bait force would have heavy casualties. I know that it is primarily conscripted farmers but Duncan and his Gray wardens should still be hardened veterans. They would know that the bait force would be wiped out even under the best of circumstances and while Duncan wouldn't have a problem sacrificing farmers he most certainly would not approve of sacrificing himself and the king.
- Am I wrong here?-rphb- (talk) 22:21, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
One question what does this have to do with the quest Of Noble Birth.
If my Husband were bleeding on the floor and intruders were trying to kill him and the family and I could save my youngest child so they could go and tell my oldest child, by staying with my Husband and defending off attackers I would do so in a heartbeat. I would also kill anyone who tried to stop me. And, Duncan knew this as did the son/daughter. Anya (talk)23:03, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
- Bryce Cousland could have said "go with our son!" and ended his own life right there. Would you want to be sitting in a pool of your own blood, watching the enemy forces kill your own wife? He could have spared her. Whether it was a lie by Howe or not, Howe tells the Warden that he made her kiss his boots before killing her. Bryce could have saved her from that by falling on his own sword. LVTDUDE (talk) 23:22, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
I don't see her kissing his boot. More like shoving it up his well you know. That said Maybe Bryce didn't have the stones to do it. Fall on his sword that is.--IceStar100 (talk) 23:40, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
I think Howe was lying about that. I think she would have slit her own throat before she would lick Howe's shoe. She seemed like a very proud woman; she probably was killed once she was overwhelmed in the larter. I think the Teryna's decision was reasonable. She didn't want to leave the side of ther dying husband.RhiannonCousland (talk) 04:52, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
Honestly had it been me I'd be hard pressed not to kill Duncan for his actions. Knowing only what I could know at the beginning of the game it would be the only course of action. Sure he was a battle hardened warrior, one of the best of the best really, but he would also have been camping with me for a couple weeks and only my first of five HN play-throughs wasn't a rogue (and I'm more roguish myself honestly). Maybe put some poison in his food if I can mask the taste, probably just slit his throat while he's sleeping. I could say Howe killed him or that he was working with Howe to kill my family and I killed him for his betrayal myself. Marking the Grey Wardens as traitors to Fereldan once again would probably make me an ally of Loghain. Who knows maybe my HN would have married Anora and become King after Cailan was dead and gone.
The thing is, games have to limit your options somewhat for the sake of the narrative. It's not too hard to figure out Howe must have had allies, nor to narrow the list down to sure things (Loghain was obvious). It doesn't matter how many points in Cunning the PC has, if they were actually smart they'd have seen half the game coming from simple deductions. An intelligent HN could figure out the whole deal with their families assassinations as well as the motives and those responsible by the time they got to Ostagar. All that would be left would be to pick sides and either expose Loghain or assist him, but that would derail the whole game wouldn't it? Sometimes you just have to accept some things for the sake of the narrative, it won't always make perfect sense.
An entirely on topic reply though? It depends on which duty, he betrayed the Couslands but he fulfilled his obligations to the Grey Wardens for the most part. By recruiting the son of a Teyrn he was meddling in Fereldan politics to an extent that I'm sure his superiors in Weishaupt would have his ass for. I shouldn't even have to mention that when the HN was conscripted it was quite possible Fergus was dead and that would make them the next Teyrn of Highever (giving him dominion over the second most powerful noble in Fereldan). There's also the fact that by conscripting Alistair he was meddling even further. Alistair was the son of a King and a potential heir to the throne of Fereldan should Cailan die. His making Alistair a Grey Warden could be considered him trying to make the next King of Fereldan a Grey Warden (effectively taking over the country).
So actually scratch that last bit. He failed in his duty to the Couslands (by letting the Teyrna die), he failed in his duty to the Grey Wardens (by meddling in politics), and he failed Maric and Fiona (by knowingly drawing Alistair into exactly the kind of life they never wanted for him). Worst of all he failed the people of Fereldan. Duncan was certain they needed reinforcements, he wanted to wait on Arl Eamon (whose presence could have stopped Loghain), but he didn't have the nerve to make it happen. The King trusted Duncan and I'm sure he could be convinced to wait. He also failed Ser Jory who need not have died, the whole situation was handled wrong, weapons should not be allowed at The Joining and a moment of mourning (and reassurance) should be allowed if someone dies. Looking at it now, Duncan was a truly terrible commander. --Aedan Cousland (talk) 11:54, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
- "I'm not that much into history, as I said I'm not a historian I'm a philosopher. But one thing I am sure of is that he army that attack the front, the army Cailan and Duncan was a part of can't be anything but bait, easily replaceable bait that It would hardly matter if you lost. The bulk of the army would then do a flank attack, and devastate the enemy. "
Actually the Macedonian 'bait force' was usually the Phalanx pikemen, the best trained infantry until the Roman Legions. Anyway on topic, The Grey Wardens have no duty to a particular country, they're responsible for all of Thedas. He didn't fail the Couslands because he could hardly have forced the Teryna to come and he still saved their son/daughter, sure the child is thus bound to be a Grey Warden but helping defeat an ancient evil that could consume the world, being heralded as The Hero of Fereldan? I can think of worse fates. Alistair was always told he would never be king so there was nothing wrong with his recruitment. Jory was a fool, you don't draw a weapon on a veteran Grey Warden. Duncan had no choice, they can't let the ritual be discovered and Jory refused to undergo it so what choice did they have? There was a bit of mourning after Daveth died ( I am sorry." He obviously feels regret) and Daveth himself said "I'd sacrifice a lot more to end The Blight. Duncan was a pretty good commander by all accounts. Nobody expected Loghain to turn traitor anyway, so Eamon was not in fact 'needed'.
I definitely disagree that the "bait" was supposed to be sacrificed, or that it could be easily sacrificed because they were "just farmers". First, as Warden of the Dales correctly points out, if your "bait" is to withstand an overwhelming attack, you can't have there just fresh recruits who can barely tell the blade from the handle, there must be veterans, and not just a handful of Grey Wardens (even though, this is exactly why they had to be there). Second, in the country which does not have a numerous profesional aarmy, the farmers are a valuable asset because they are the bulk of your force, not just cheap cannon fodder. And, since they are farmers, they are essential for your agriculture, so you cannot sacrifice them just with a snap of your fingers - what use is the victory if you starve to death afterwards? Third, the population, and therefore the army, of Ferelden is not very numerous, meaning almost every man counts. You can't afford to sacrifice half your army just like that. No. Loghain was supposed to come BEFORE the "bait" suffered too heavy casualties. Ygrain (talk) 17:18, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
- Short question.
- Do you actually say that Alexander's Phalanx pikemen engaged the enemy in disorganized mêlée? How effective is a pikeman with no line to defend him. Please provide a source link to prove this claim.
- Also as Aedan Cousland said, Duncan couldn’t have failed the kingdom more. Loghain was the better man of the two, even with everything he did.-rphb- (talk) 17:50, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
- Are you serious? I can see Aedan Cousland's point that Duncan probably should have convinced Cailan to wait for reinforcements but how does that make him a worse person than the one who deliberately abandoned his king and his comrades at arms, ignited civil war at the time of utmost danger to the nation, had people murdered and tortured and sold to slavery, among others? You're lucky that Alistair cannot hear you, or you might be up to a nasty surprise next time you load the game :-)) Ygrain (talk) 19:39, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
- Also as Aedan Cousland said, Duncan couldn’t have failed the kingdom more. Loghain was the better man of the two, even with everything he did.-rphb- (talk) 17:50, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
@Aedan Cousland I really enjoyed your most recent analysis. Your addition of the Ser Jory analysis was quite interesting. I went back and looked at how that played out in the game. It is clear that Ser Jory never threatened Duncan with his weapon. He drew his sword, held it in a primarily upright position, and moved only backwards (away from Duncan). It was Duncan who made the first aggressive move. Only after that did Ser Jory move his sword in Duncan's direction. Duncan was not actually threatened and should have tried talking first.
[Edit] I'm reminded of one RPG I played (Gothic II and/or III I think) where it's easy to accidentally draw a weapon at the wrong time. Every time it happens in the presence of others you hear a bunch of other weapons being drawn, and a chorus of people shouting, "Hey, put that weapon away!" But you don't get attacked and killed simply for drawing your weapon. [End Edit]
I also agree that Duncan should have tried harder to convince Cailan to wait for reinforcements. Being a Warden, Duncan should have had superior knowledge of the quality of the Darkspawn threat, and should have had a pretty good idea of their numbers, etc. If not, he certainly could have used his unique Warden abilities to better evaluate the Darkspawn threat and should have been able to convince Cailan to wait for a further evaluation, at least for a short time. -- WarPaint (talk) 20:17, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
@Warpaint, I wrote this wall of text while you were writing your comment so it might seem a bit off, I just don't want to further modify it. I do rally hate the way Duncan handled the Joining. I've always figured my human noble and magi PC's felt the same about him, I just play them as being smart enough not to tell Alistair that.
Who was technically better between Duncan and Loghain could be a tricky thing to call. Both of them were Champions of the People, both of them messed up heavily and repeatedly in their endeavors, and both of them were capable of doing what could be considered terrible things for what they'd call the greater good. A lot of the danger they caused for themselves and others was a result of their not fully understanding the nobility and politics (why were they in leadership positions again?). I'm not sure I could say who was worse, we never got to see what Duncan would do if he had to make some really tough calls. but we do know that Wardens will do anything to defeat the darkspawn.
Whatever Alistair was told about being king is moot. Until Cailan had a child (who survived it's first few winters), Alistair could be considered the next in line for the throne. Alistair would be told he'd never have the throne to discourage him from trying to obtain it. Duncan made a foolish choice in conscripting Alistair whether he realized it or not. It was political meddling of the highest sort. Then there's the fact that he allowed the last two Theirins to be on the same battlefield despite the fact that if both died it would mean full civil war on top of the blight he know about before he recruited Alistair.
Duncan failed the Couslands when he didn't insist on bringing the Teyrna but still insisted on taking the HN. The HN is a noble, it is his duty to see to the affairs of his people in a different capacity than a simple warrior. The HN should only join the Grey Wardens if he can be sure that he has other family to take care of the family business (meaning he has to at the very least see Fergus first and have him removed from the battle). Duncan was again meddling in politics where he shouldn't.
In terms of what Duncan was offering the HN, you can't look at it based on the way it turned out in the end. You have to look at it based on how it all started. Duncan comes to Highever looking for soldiers and upon being refused the HN as a recruit admits that it's a bad idea politically to push the issue. Later on when the castle is attacked he refuses to save the Teyrn's wife and child unless the child joins the Grey Wardens (which everyone knows is a virtual death sentence). What he essentially does is tell the Teyrn you and your family can die here or I can take your son with me to die later. After the Teyrn in a bid to save his family agrees to these terms the Teyrna refuses to go, and Duncan doesn't hold up his end of the deal and make her yet still expects his payment. If the HN refuses, Duncan decides to use the Right of Conscription to make him. Duncan did this knowing full well the man who would likely kill or exile him for this action is moments away from death himself.
Really one of the stupidest things Duncan did was keep Alistair in Fereldan once he was recruited. Know what he should have done? He should have sent him to Weishaupt in the far off Anderfels. The potential heir would be safe and maybe he could have met his mom. What a teary reunion that would be... well odds are only Fiona would cry since Alistair didn't know about her but still.
I also am compelled to repeat that weapons should not be allowed at The Joining, really what was he thinking. Here's a thought, let's take some trained killers (and not just any killers, only the best killers) and send them off on the possibly traumatic experience to kill their first darkspawn. Then after their all tired and stressed out from their endeavor let's put them in a high stress situation, one where they might see friends die right in front of them from drinking a strange cocktail (that they too will have to drink) made of the blood of those horrid darkspawn. Always remember that this ritual needs to happen at night in a unnecessarily creepy fashion and that you should never take away all of their weapons first. Seriously, were I the Warden Commander I would make special arrangements to conduct The Joining ritual during a pancake breakfast after the new recruits have had some restful sleep. If at all possible I would do it in a garden or some other soothing locale and not in some old Tevinter ruins in the middle of the night after a long day on the eve of major battle. I also wouldn't tell the recruits what they were drinking until after they actually drank it and I would put it in a flask so they can't see it. It also might be beneficial to just go ahead and do them one at a time. I see no need for the recruits to witness their comrades die during the ritual, I'm sure they'll see enough of that later. --Aedan Cousland (talk) 21:12, September 2, 2010 (UTC),
- I generally agree with what you say Aedan Cousland so if you'll forgive me I will just move on to Ygrain
- No. Read my post again, please. I was not mentioning pikemen
- Oh I’m sorry how should I interpretative then:
- Actually the Macedonian 'bait force' was usually the Phalanx pikemen, the best trained infantry until the Roman Legions
- Anyway I’m starting to disbelief that Alexander would willingly send soldiers into mêlée, and I asked you to bring me a source reference, you haven’t done that yet.
- And to your commend on my commend on the Loghain-Duncan better-man-dilemma, please be aware that the intensions you have for doing an action and the effect of you doing said action are two different things.
- I don’t know how it is in your country, but in my country intentions are very important in a court of law, a murder committed for the intent of protecting others from the person (for example from a longer period of abuse) is less severe then murder committed only for vengeance or madness.
- All that I have done I have done in the defence of Ferelden! quote Loghain. He honestly did what he believed was the best action, as did Duncan. Both of them had a one track mind. Both believed that their goal (saving Ferelden / saving the world from a Blight) could justify any means.
- Don’t you think that Duncan would have done everything Loghain did and more, if he believed that it could end the blight?-rphb- (talk) 21:48, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
@Aedan Cousland I dont believe its mandatory for the joining to be taken in that fashion I believe it was done that way because the battle was to commence in a few hours and i'm sure they needed time to wait for the warden recruits to wake up after passing out I believe it was done that way because they didnt have time to spare. Also I believe Alexanders tactic was the Hammer and Anvil he would use his phalanxes to hold the line and hold the enemy in place when they attacked(The Anvil) and would charge with his Companion(heavy) Cavalry that he was at the head of to attack from the flank and the rear(The Hammer)(Gdubs (talk) 22:34, September 2, 2010 (UTC))
I read only the last seven-eight posts, so sorry if i mess something, I think that you can't blame only Loghain, the blame is shared for him, Cailan and Duncan, 'cause Cailan was a naive that only wanted to be the hero from a epic tale, he couldn't understand the magnitud of the problem and didn't listen Loghain (if you read the lore in 3 of 4 blights the nation was occupied for the armies that fought against the archdemon), Duncan only wanted defeat the blight, and that is good, but he took advantage of the Cailan's naiveness, Personally don't said te reason for what was really needed the gray wardens was a big mistake, if Duncan would've told the reason why the wardens were neccesary to Loghain and cailan, or at least to cailan the things could be different, but he let that Cailan's dreams were more important than the reality, like one commander of the army, the responsability of Duncan was try to advise to the king about the real danger, let that Cailan were in the front was other mistake, he should to try of convince the king of go with Loghain, he knew the danger of the battle. NO all the troops of the country were there in Ostagar, great part of the bannorn, Amaranthine and Redcliffe' armies weren't present, so, well many can be discussed there...... Loghain saw Ostagar like 'betray a fool king or betray your country'
I think that Duncan is more responsible than Loghain for what happened in Ostagar, but I condemn Loghain for what happened later, the civil war, etc.... --Makoto DK (talk) 22:42, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
@-rphb- You are absolutely correct that intent is a significant factor in criminal law. The difference between premeditated murder and second degree murder goes precisely to that issue. One still has to prove bad intent to prove second degree murder, but that is established by proving that the accused knew they were engaged in activities that could result in death (for example, a death caused by hitting the victim in the head with a baseball bat isn't excused by the answer, "but I didn't mean to kill her/him"). Intent can also play a major role in the sentencing phase of a criminal trial. The more innocent the intentions, the shorter the sentence (at least in theory).
I don't think any of this will help Loghain. Abandoning one's King on the battlefield amounts to treason even if it was done with the intent of saving other soldiers. Perhaps if it could be established beyond any question that it would have been impossible to save Cailan, Loghain might have an argument. But I think the best anyone could show is that it wasn't clear whether the Cailan could have been saved, and that the losses would have been high. I don't think that's even close to sufficient to help Loghain. (Note that the question at the Landsmeet was whether Loghain's treachery could be proven. Here we are looking at the criminality of what Loghain actually did, and not whether we can prove it).
As to Loghain's belief that he acted for the good of Ferelden, I see that more along the lines of an insanity defense. The question of intent is actually the heart of the insanity defense. An insane person, who is so delusional that they cannot understand the wrongfulness of their action, can be said to lack the "intent" to engage in wrongful activities. Anora believed that her father's paranoia about Orlais prevented him from understanding the wrongful nature of his actions. Nevertheless, the insanity defense is controversial even today, and is still not recognized in many jurisdictions. Even if Loghain was delusional, I can't see that being of much benefit back in the age of dragons.
Having said all of that, I must also say I agree with your belief that Loghain wasn't trying to grab the throne to satisfy a greed for power. Although that should be a factor in Loghain's favor, he is in so deep it probably won't help him a great deal. That's my take, anyway. WarPaint (talk) 00:47, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
rphb:
- No. Read my post again, please. I was not mentioning pikemen
- Oh I’m sorry how should I interpretative then:
- Actually the Macedonian 'bait force' was usually the Phalanx pikemen, the best trained infantry until the Roman Legions
- Anyway I’m starting to disbelief that Alexander would willingly send soldiers into mêlée, and I asked you to bring me a source reference, you haven’t done that yet"
If you do re-read my comments, you will find out that the original mention of Alexander's pikemen was not mine, therefore I need not provide any link whatsoever. Besides, you're still missing the point: it was neither the type of weapon nor the type of combat but the fact that the "bait force" consisted of seasoned soldiers - "best" - not some fresh recruits who wouldn't be able to play the role of the anvil. As for the Loghain-Duncan thing: the role of intention has already been covered, so yet another thing to ponder: courts should also abide by the presumption of innocence. So, until you can prove effective regicide, desertion, mass murder up to the point of partial genocide, abuse of civil rights and what else on Duncan's part, don't bring up the comparison again. Please. We don't want to end up like the Stalin's regime where wives were often sentenced because they MAY have overheard something.
The Joining: wasn't it stated prior in the game that it was supposed to be a test of sorts? I never thought of it as a mere ceremony, so the outcome was probably not so much shocking for me. As a Grey Warden, you will be required to do many difficult, even disgusting things, and no-one's gonna ask if you are stressed out, exhausted or feeling like it. You will be required to sacrifice your life with the full knowledge of the manner and consequences. If you do not have the makings of a Warden, better to find out now before someone gets hurt because of your lack of guts. As for the weapon part - come one, in real life you don't draw weapons incidentally - if you draw one, I am fully entitled to expect that you are ready to use it. - BTW, what happens if you disobey a command and draw a weapon in the presence of your commanding officer? Ygrain (talk) 04:45, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
Sorry people if my comment confused you, the Macedonian bait force were Phalanx pikemen who fought with sarrisae, a large spear. They would form the phalanx and pin the enemy, allowing the strike force to attack, they would attack but only in lines of pikes, not in a mad rush. That is one flaw of the battle of Ostagar they should have let the Darkspawn come to them rather than charging into battle. Also people fail to realize the idea that if Jory doesn't want to take the Joining (they can hardly force him) then he HAS to die. There's no other option. --Warden Of The Dales (talk) 06:16, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
Do you guys know why you don't get to carry around a loaded firearm while in boot-camp? Because the COs know better than to let their new soldiers run around armed because they don't yet know how they'll react. Duncan should NOT, under any possible circumstances, have let Ser Jory come to The Joining while armed. As far as what happens when you disobey a direct order and draw a weapon on your CO, well that depends on the nature of the order doesn't it? A great many people would object to what the Joining is and how it's forced on people. Had Ser Jory actually been able to kill Duncan first then I'm not entirely sure he'd be reprimanded at all. The Chantry and Loghain might have just ordered all of the Wardens executed. The Joining is a secret for a reason.
I realize that the joining might not always need to happen that way but it did happen that way and that was Duncan's fault. Then there's the fact that if Duncan had the stuff to do the Ritual on him then he should have done your Joining before you ever got to Ostagar (especially for the Dalish Elf or Dwarf Noble) and if the materials were at Ostagar then he should have had his lieutenant perform Ser Jory's and Daveth's Joinings in his absence. Duncan might have been a nice enough guy but he was a terrible commander. --Aedan Cousland (talk) 14:56, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
Where does it say he has the stuff on him? --Warden Of The Dales (talk) 16:13, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
Duncan explains that to become a Grey Warden, you have to give up your name, your family and all that. That's what the Wardens do. Also, Eleanor explains that without her, you'll leave the castle much quickly and everyone says that it takes a few more sacrifices to save many. The Grey Wardens do what they must to end the Blight. Duncan did not persuade Eleanor, because he knew she wouldn't change her mind and because she was right, like I said before that bringing her would only slow them down and maybe attract more attention. I believe Duncan was only doing his job as a Grey Warden. GWs are not 'evil', but they are not 'good' too. They are neutral, that's why they are 'Grey' and that's why they won't sacrifice themselves to save a small city, to same some refugees, to save a village; they will sacrifice themselves to destroy the Blight and save the whole country, and maybe Thedas. --Rocketai (talk) 16:22, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
@Aedan Cousland Agree with your point that consequences of refusing a direct order and pulling a weapon will depend on the specifics of the direct order. The inquiry will also examine the specifics of the weapon and how it was deployed. Was the weapon a knife or an assault rifle? Was it directly endangering someone else? Bottom line; even in the military, taking a life is no small matter. Taking a life is justified as part of a military operation, when reasonably necessary to protect a life, and probably when reasonably necessary to enforce an order backed by the death penalty. The CO who executes a soldier will face an inquiry and better have an unimpeachable reason for the execution. In Jory's case, Duncan was not defending against a threat to someone's life; but, the order to participate in the joining was enforceable by the death penalty according to Duncan. Where I disagree with Duncan is Duncan's failure to try reasoning with Jory before imposing the ultimate penalty of execution. WarPaint (talk) 16:30, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
I'm with Warpaint on this. Of coruse he was alittle paniced. He just watched a man die a very grosome death. He could have been talked down. Reminded about his family and the greater good. He was not showing signs of fleeing he was backed aginst a piller. Nor of fight his sword was in a defence position. He was just scared. Duncan was a poor commander and the Wardens are better off with him dead. Harsh I know but that is mmy feelings.--IceStar100 (talk) 17:05, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
There is something I'd like to point out about the Grey Wardens that some seem to either not realize or forget. While the purpose the Grey Wardens were founded for is noble, they are still just people the same as anyone else. They may say they aren't beholden to any King, but that is not true. The Grey Wardens have the rights that they do because those rights are given to them by the people. If they abuse those privileges that have been granted to them by their fellow man then they will be stripped of them. Has everyone here heard that The Hound That Bit story from Nan? The key message there was that nobody is above justice. Grey Wardens should be held responsible for their actions the same as anyone else. It is one thing to burn a tainted village to the ground to keep the corruption from spreading, it's something entirely different to kill a frightened man to protect the secrets of your order.
The Grey Wardens say they must keep their secrets because people will not understand what they have to do. Either that is a poor excuse or they have far too little faith in people. The Grey Wardens are an order of people with power and they intend to hold on to that power. By being the only group with extensive knowledge on the darkspawn and how to defeat them they place themselves in a rather lucrative position. The Grey Wardens practically run the Anderfels, they are payed tithes by nobility all across Thedas, and most importantly they have their Right of Conscription. Duncan was originally recruited to the Wardens not necessarily for his skill but so that Genevieve could use the Right of Conscription to kill him within the law. A good example of how the Wardens can and do operate.
If everyone knew the secret to the power Grey Wardens have then they wouldn't need the Grey Wardens. They'd just need the blood of the Archdemon so they could do the Joining themselves should they ever need to. Just as those who became the first Grey Wardens realized what had to be done to end the First Blight more would step up for the same task were they needed again. The first Wardens would have realized that their power would be lost if they shared their knowledge and people don't like to give up their power. By keeping their secrets they aren't protecting others their protecting themselves.
There were two dozen Grey Wardens at Ostagar and while they were respected for their skill and knowldege they had no true power over those others there. If Ser Jory killed Duncan he wouldn't answer to the other Grey Wardens, he would answer to the king. For the same reason Duncans actions can't just be accepted as neccisity simply because he's a Warden, had he not died the next day I'd have wanted my PC to push the issue a bit more. Ser Jory's death was not his own fault in the slightest, it was due to Duncan's failings as a commander. It was not an execution, it was not self defence, it was murder (or at the very least negligent homicide). Duncan was a fool even if he was a well meaning fool.
To actually say that the Grey Wardens aren't good or evil but grey is to say nothing at all. The Grey Wardens are collection of men and just as any collection of men can be just about anything imaginable. When it comes to people there is no black and white moral spectrum. Good and evil are abstract words not applicable to human beings. We are all grey, just different shades of it. The character of the Grey Wardens, what kind of people they are, this should be looked at on a Warden by Warden basis the same as any other group. In real life I've know cops worse than the criminals they arrest and mafioso more honorable than you could imagine. In the grand scheme of things group affiliations mean less than nothing. --Aedan Cousland (talk) 18:59, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
This will be my final post on this subject. The Grey Wardens do what they have to to stop the Blight. Jory had previously shown that he had cowardly tendencies (after helping that soldier) he's a soldier, he will have seen death before and yet he recoils from Javeth's death. With that he confirms that he is not fit to be a Grey Warden and you can tell he'll not be persuaded, by his actions and by his dialogue. He cannot be allowed to live because then he'll blab about The Joining and the person that believes that people would accept the truth is being naive,
"Sure we accept that they use Darkspawn blood to become what they are!" "Hold on, they use blood, doesn't that sound a bit iffy? You know, like blood magic?" "You know you're right DEATH TO THE GREY WARDENS!" (yes, people in Thedas are that dumb. Except the Qunari)
Duncan has to protect the order, does one man's death really outweigh the future of Thedas? Does it really? --Warden Of The Dales (talk) 20:02, September 3, 2010 (UTC)