Forum:Loghain Charge at Ostagor?

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Just wondering what you guys think would have happen if Loghain would have charge at Ostagar when they got he saw the signal. Would they have won the battle? If so would the Cailan still be alive?--James.rosing (talk) 20:00, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

My personal belief is that darkspawn would've kept pouring out of the forest, flanking Loghain and killing everybody. Or, Loghain's charge may have given the fereldans some time to retreat, although I really don't think so. I'll wager many others here see it differently, however. Matt-256 (talk) 21:19, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

I imagine that the Darkspawn would have near limitless reserves. Like Matt-256 said, they would have just kept pouring into the battle and eventually overwhelm the defenders. What may have worked better would have been if a rearguard fell back to the narrowest part of Ostagar, presumably under the bridge crossing the span. Soldiers would have died, but not as many and more importantly, they could have gotten Cailan out and have a rallying figurehead. Could in the sense that one random arrow could have hit him in the eye or he could have been crushed as the soldiers fell back. But anyway, thanks to the way the plan had failed (Cailan's army was in the open, not at the choke point, presumably because Loghain planned it that way), had Loghain charged in, it would have fed more bodies into a meat grinder. --Madasamadthing (talk) 21:31, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

No, Cailan would've died. Calian was adament about fighting on the front lines.While the rear lines retreat they would've need to be guarded by the front lines otherwise they all would've slaughtered.CrowInvictus (talk) 16:20, March 29, 2012 (UTC)

I personally believe, that Loghain has undergone a strange metamorphosis, being a competent general in the book and turning into a complete idiot, with no grasp of strategy at all, in the game. You don't abandon a battle plan you devised yourself, in the middle of a battle. Uncertainity is still preferable to defeat. Sure the fereldens would have won that particular battle. Reasons:

1) the Archdemon wasn't there, so the darkspawn horde was vast in numbers, but largely disorganised, therefore 2)...

2) the king's army held a strong fortified position and Eamon's reinforcements were inbound. Highly unlikely the darkspawn would've overrun them even in those numbers. Of course they'd overrun the fereldens eventually, but read 3)...

3) with good old diplomacy and a bit of ass-licking, Duncan could've convinced Cailan after he had his fun playing war, to tactically retreat a bit North, leaving ambush sites and evacuating populated areas. Telling Cailan, that this is cool Grey Warden style, just like in that and also that legend.

4) as Aveline tells in DA2, the kings army was defeated not because the darkspawn horde was stronger, but because the army was severely demoralized with treason. That should clarify things.

In short, Loghain was good at fighting orlesians, but the darkspawn don't eat cheese and don't care about fashion, so he should've left the planning to the Wardens, specifically trained to fight darkspawn, and STFU. But the low-life criminal suddenly developed some twisted sense of pride at the most inconvenient moment, and screwed up the whole country. By some strange reasons the game doesn't present a choice to hang him, like a deserter dog he is, along with Cauthrien and other senior officers of his regiment. I find a huge gap of logic in this.-Algol- (talk) 23:03, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

I always thought killing all the darkspawn was Cailan's plan, Duncan's was to kill enough darkspawn to force the archdemon to appear, or have enough gray warden's for the archdemon to eventually sense them.--75.183.155.10 (talk) 23:13, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

I was under the impression, that Duncan was trying to locate the Archdemon at least approximately, and then re-evaluate the chances. That was logical, wasn't it? With Cailan so in love with the Grey Wardens, Duncan could have easily swayed his opinion, and implement whatever plan would benefit the situation, judging from centuries of experience the Wardens had with Blights. Sadly, one idiot ruined it all.-Algol- (talk) 23:36, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

For me Ostagar was never a winnable battle. THe best thing that could've been down was retreat not engage them at Ostagar, fortify the Arlings in the south and wait out the Darkspawn until the Archdemon rose. Had they been fighting humans, a uick demoralizing strike might have worked but Darkspawn don't have morale and would keep stiking until they overwhelmed the Ostagar forces.CrowInvictus (talk) 16:20, March 29, 2012 (UTC)

Actually I don't think Duncan would have been qualified for command of large units, by their very nature the Grey Wardens tend not to deploy in anything larger than a couple of dozen troops.The exception is during Blights and then only after a decade or two has passed.When the Blight is over, Large-unit command experience would atrophy and the last Blight was 400 years ago.My point is at the start of a Blight the local Warden-Commander(Duncan) would feel the need to defer to someone who has apparently more recent personal command level experience(Loghain).Oso27us (talk) 21:04, March 29, 2012 (UTC)

This business was caused by Cailan's affair with the Empress Celene. Loghain was paranoid that an union between the two could cause Fereldan to be absorbed by orlais in the future and thus Loghain planned to lure Cailan to his death. The only way Loghain would have charge was if there was no affair. Can't blame him, they spend years under Orlesian rule just to jeopardize the independence with that union. The civil war was inevitable even without the blight... just imagine what would happen if the news were to be made public while the king was still alive.--GreyWardenMortimus (talk) 06:19, March 30, 2012 (UTC)

That was what I was going to say. Let's not forget that Eamon was responsible for the inbetween for Cailan and Celene, which is why Loghain had to incapacitate him. He underestimated the darkspawn threat when thinking of the potential Orlesean threat. Not to mention the fact that the queen was his daughter which probably could have clouded his judgement a bit as well.--At Spatula City, we sell spatulas, and that's all. (talk) 21:59, March 30, 2012 (UTC)

Was it really Eamon? Where does this information come from? I mean, we know that Eamon pushed for Anora to be set aside, but I dot recall any connection between Eamon and Orlais. I always thought Cailan's inbetween was Bryce. --Ygrain (talk) 06:13, March 31, 2012 (UTC)

My interpretation of the 2nd Letter was that Eamon was responsible for the go-between. I couldn't remember off-hand that Bryce was the actual go-between.--At Spatula City, we sell spatulas, and that's all. (talk) 15:28, March 31, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it was ever stated that it was really Bryce, it is just my interpretation, based on the fact that there must have been a go-between, since Cailan definitely wouldn't want Anora and Loghain know he was corresponding with Orlais, and it must have been someone who could access both Cailan and Celene without arousing suspicion. We have some hints that Bryce visited Orlais a couple of times, which probably later became the basis for Howe's fabrication. It never occured to me that it might have been Eamon, since I read "I submit to you again that it might be time to put Anora aside. We parted harshly the last time I spoke of this, but it has been a full year since" as a fact that Eamon doesn't know about Cailan's rather intimate realtionship with Celene. --Ygrain (talk) 16:13, March 31, 2012 (UTC)

Either/or, potato/potatoe it can be easy to understand why Loghain did what he did then for what he thought was the best for protecting Ferelden from another Orleasian invasion. If it wasn't for that blasted blight. And of course, Howe.--Babaganoosh13 (talk) 17:54, March 31, 2012 (UTC)

Honestly, I think that the impact of Duncan's and the King's death would be meaningless if they wouldn't have. If his retreat wasn't the direct cause of Duncan's death, why the hell did I spend the entire game thinking of creative ways to murder him?

--The Milkman | I always deliver. 22:15, March 30, 2012 (UTC)

While it's true that the Horde definitely outnumbered the Fereldan troops at Ostagar, that doesn't necessarily mean it was a lost battle from the beginning. For one, it takes until almost the end of the game, a full year, before the majority of the Darkspawn are on the surface to attack Denerim. The vast majority of Darkspawn have only enough intelligence to use the most basic tactics - the exceptions being Alphas and Emissaries - so the Horde is basically organized along the lines of "one Alpha/Emissary who obeys the commands of the Archdemon, commanding as many lesser Darkspawn as he can bully into obedience, repeat ad infinitum, Horde attacks." There's the Generals, but the point stands. A well-timed, well-organized cavalry charge into such a disorganized force can wreak absolute havoc, and Loghain's force was cavalry, so it could very well have given them the advantage they needed to either retreat or hold on long enough for Eamon's reinforcements, if need be. While it's no guarantee that Cailin and/or Duncan would have survived, since both were on the front lines, either way the aftermath would likely have less human casualties and more Darkspawn ones. It's still not ideal tactically, but that one's really the fault of Cailin's idiotic naivete and glory-seeking that led him to want to fight one big, epic battle instead of any kind of practical approach. --UrLeingod (talk) 23:45, March 30, 2012 (UTC)