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Update

Icons

All Locations that are map locations world or city will have the appropriate icon:

Ico Castle Ostagar
Ico Hut Flemeth's Hut
Ico Denerim Denerim

All Locations that are area maps and not World map or city map locations will have these icons:

Ico Area Map Blacksmith's Store
Ico Area Map Kaitlyn's Home

World Map has its own Icon: World map may refer to the following maps:

Disambig gray This disambiguation page lists articles associated with the same title.
If an internal link led you here, you may wish to change the link to point directly to the intended article.

Easier to read Icons

Ico DLC Return to Ostagar, DLC
Ico Castle Ostagar, Location
Ico DLC Return to Ostagar, Quest

New Optional Icons for Pages

Ico Money Money
Plt ico jewelry Gifts

Spells may refer to:

Disambig gray This disambiguation page lists articles associated with the same title.
If an internal link led you here, you may wish to change the link to point directly to the intended article.

Talents may refer to:

Disambig gray This disambiguation page lists articles associated with the same title.
If an internal link led you here, you may wish to change the link to point directly to the intended article.

Page Layouts

Some Ideal Location Page layouts (but can still improve): Redcliffe Village, The Elven Tombs, Ostagar

Page Naming

All world map/city map locations should be named as world map/city map names. Sublocations and stages of a locations to be renamed as Ostagar/Return to Ostagar where applicable.

Some merging ie Kaitlyn's Home - Main Floor + Kaitlyn's Home - Second Floor = Kaitlyn's Home, for fuller pages when needed.

 Hollowness | Talk | Contr 01:01, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

Comments

I think this is the cleanest, simplest way to clean up/organize locations (once the initial maintenance is done, I'd volunteer for this concept maintenance because I feel I have a good grasp on it.) and time to enforce some sort of location page style.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 01:01, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

Phew this page is getting big! Okay, I think it makes perfect sense to merge Kaitlyn's home into one article, and love the mini icons. For ideal styles, I would go with
    • City = Ostagar though I'm not sure if an exits category is needed on any page
    • Hub = Denerim, though maybe making codex entry the header like other pages that use codex entries
    • World map encounter = Roadside Field, though I would make the background the introduction
    • Dungeon = The Elven Tombs for me too
    • Building = Wonders of Thedas
If we are all in relative agreement, I can make up some new templates for new pages to help keep styles together. Your welcome to head the style unification Hollowness, just make sure not to burn yourself out ;). Friendship smallLoleil Talk 02:11, February 15, 2010 (UTC)
Ok, I think we are close to the same page but one question what do you think is the big differences with makes Redcliffe Village less ideal for city/town than Ostagar or is there none and that is just a cleaner looking page. And yes it be nice to have the location templates updated especially removing 'Containers' to 'Items' or 'Items and Codexes' or 'Special Objects' (or whatever is better than Containers (which I find useless)). I'll prolly start the initial stages of prepping, I already changed all locations with LocationTransformers, I have to still add the icons to the rest of the Locations, name changes to world map location names and merge easy merge pages, etc. Maybe by tomorrow I can go location by location and any iffy issues I'll present here for decisions.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 02:34, February 15, 2010 (UTC)
The only that I didn't like on Redcliffe Village was the approval section. I think that would work better on the relevant quest pages. I'll get started on updating the new pages templates in the near future. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 02:48, February 15, 2010 (UTC)
Hhhmmm, yes I see your point, the only thing is that is the easiest way to overview the approval in that area since it is not really specific to one quest. But I am not gonna worry about that right now that can be dealt with when all the approval stuff gets sorted out and where/if it should be situated etc.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 02:55, February 15, 2010 (UTC)
Ok, every locationtransformer should have an icon (even currently unreachable locations as a default for if they do become unlocked in expansions etc.). World Map Locations have should have World Map Names (I added to the transformer a subtitle for area map names ie. The Dragon's Lair). I did some merges ie Redcliffe Castle and put some deletion tags on unneeded articles (duplicates, etc). Added characters/enemies options to the transformers Korcari Wilds, Ostagar, Lothering (it drove me nuts seeing Lothering, inhabitants: Leliana and Sten...really just them no other people in lothering) if specification is wanted and inhabitants is too vague. Tomorrow, I'l start clean ups and see what needs to be merged, etc.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 11:33, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

Ban /sublocations

since this has been a mislead conception I see no point in have /sublications at all now. Balancing between quest, states, and such for a location should be universal and thus I find no reason to implement any sub pages it will just create more misconceptions and take away from consistency. As for expansion Denerim (Awakening) just eeww I hope we have something better when the time comes cause that just doesn't do it for me. Forgive me for I am editing on my iPhone and it isn't the most easy way to edit.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 10:48, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Location vs Quests

@Hollowness requested that I post here regarding my comment about Ostagar/Return to Ostagar. I followed this thread sporadically and I want to start by saying that this is a fabulous idea. Location/Sublocation works for me. I haven't tried it but as long The Deep Roads/Ortan Thaig shows up when I type in Ortan Thaig into the search, then its fine by me.

However, I want to address Ostagar/Return to Ostagar specifically. Return to Ostagar isn't a location. We have Return to Ostagar the DLC. That page should describe what is in the DLC. The price. An general overview of the contents. How many hours of gameplay. And reiterate the selling point of the DLC. And we have Return to Ostagar (Quest), the quest. This page should be a walkthrough and be specific. What items drop where. Which are the bosses. What are the approval changes. That sort of details.

Neither of these are locations. So neither of them should be subcategorized as Ostagar/Return to Ostagar. -- tierrie talk contr 22:59, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

In my defense it is a state of the location, and if we revisit Ostagar again, I think Ostagar (Expansion), is a bit much. Also I have modified DLC, Quests and Locations, with the Transformers and mini Icons and should never get mixed up again. I think this looks cleaner:
Ico Castle Ostagar, Location
Ico DLC Return to Ostagar, DLC
Ico DLC Return to Ostagar, Quest/sub state of the Location Ostagar

Rather than

Ostagar
Return to Ostagar
Return to Ostagar (Quest), I think the biggest thing is I find the brackets and turn off Tonguesmiley  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 23:07, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

It be a redirect so it will and if that redirect wasn't there it will list it on the searches, Like on the Special:Search, try Return or Ostagar it lists the DLC and Location nice.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 23:16, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
Return to Ostagar does take place in Ostagar. But it is still a quest. According to the Wikipedia Manual of Style for disambiguation, we give the page a defining characteristic in brackets. You're free to describe it as you wish in your lists, but the name of the article itself needs to follow the Manual of Style.
So for example -
Ico Castle Ostagar, Location
Ico DLC Return to Ostagar, DLC
Ico Quest Return to Ostagar, Quest/sub state of the Location Ostagar
If you want, you might also want to extend your iconmini template so that you can either specify an alternate text, or specify an alternate link. {{:Return to Ostagar (Quest)|style=iconmini|text=Return to Ostagar}} or {{:Return to Ostagar|style=iconmini|link=Return to Ostagar (Quest)}}. -- tierrie talk contr 02:32, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
Template adjustment is unneeded it is the same name anyways it is the Location/Item/Quest transformer's name (so even it it was location on Return to Ostagar (Quest) it still look the same, I am just saying when I see it lists and with brackets I think it looks bad I rather see a '/' before '()' if need be). I am just saying I don't find using brackets any more help. As for your argument saying it a quest and not a location, it is both to the searcher / user. Loleil has express that location are going to not include any quest walkthroughs, so Location quest as if it were would be considered a 'state' of the location if applicable. Like when we get to crime wave the estate you visit twice, it both a location and a quest and I am sure may more do have and will happen in later expansions, I think it is important to link Location states to the main location as a child and it will usually be a quest or aftermath.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 03:26, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
All in all i am saying a state of a location quest or not is still a child of the location and not just a quest. And to keep consistency with article 'children' sub-locations and states should be treated equal.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr
Oh, and using the 'the 'disambiguation page', manual of style' as the argument, then Return to Ostagar should rightly be a disambiguation page only and the DLC renamed 'Return to Ostagar(DLC)' to be more accurate.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 03:46, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
This isn't a matter of opinion whether what special symbols is preferred. Brackets and forward slashes have special meanings in wikis. Forward slashes mean that that article is a child of the parent article. Return to Ostagar (Quest), the quest, is not related to Ostagar, the location, in a parent/child fashion. And thus, it breaks the way a wiki should be organized.
And re disambig - you're right, Return to Ostagar could be a disambiguation page. Or, it could be the first article that was created. For example, Police should be a disambiguation page, but instead, it assumes that the most common searched term is for the law enforcement official. Others cases such as Starfang, are created at the same time, and have the same "weight" so the landing page is a disambiguation page instead.
I think you're on the right track doing the child/parent association with locations, but in the specific case of Return to Ostagar (Quest), it does not fall within this scope. -- tierrie talk contr 04:14, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
I think the 'state'/'aftermath' of a location even if it is a quest can still qualify though, I mean you can revisit Ostagar after you complete return to Ostagar unlike The Keep in Warden's Keep, I don't think it is absolute, I don't think it is just opinion I think it is a firm justification with out going against wiki manual of style.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 04:20, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
The biggest reason I am pushing this issue, is because of the expansion, quest or states of Locations are going to have more complexity (location revisited/reworked/restocked and it will be either as a state or quest state but the Location still the base) but still need something to keep them connected to the parent. I am aware of parent child relationships my last job of three years was completely based on parent child relationships and subs, I worked and reworked with such relationships and have certain guidelines I find universal and mainly the idea of this sub/states of an article. And the justifications I believe still follow the wiki manual of style.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 04:32, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
And if this is completely forbade, where will be the consistency with states and subs of an articles? ie what if a Location like Ostagar is reopened for a third time and not as a quest, but basis of the quest valid it be like a stepping stone missing. This is essence, is my biggest concern, I personally with sub and location states as children to a parenting location is consistent with wiki manual and all lead up to the parent. Or would though have Ostagar/Return to Ostagar most of a Location state and less a quest, and have the Quest on its own with out the location details? (I only didn't mention this before cause we have soo many Return to Ostagar articles and related articles). I just really need firm foundation to work with when I redo all the locations and haev a finish product for Loleil to put on the our wiki format style for locations.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 04:40, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
I gave what you said some thought. And after weighing what you've said against the fact that the quest is named "Return to Ostagar", I concluded that the best naming convention is to use the wikipedia's manual of style and name it Return to Ostagar (Quest). I know you feel passionately about this subject and if you do, you may opt to bring it up with Loleil. -- tierrie talk contr 20:02, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
Ok, but now you have to help me figure out how to go around the facts I brought up that why I need it that way, I need fixes for that now. "where will be the consistency with states and subs of an articles? ie what if a Location like Ostagar is reopened for a third time and not as a quest, but basis of the quest valid it be like a stepping stone missing. This is essence, is my biggest concern, I personally with sub and location states as children to a parenting location is consistent with wiki manual and all lead up to the parent. Or would though have Ostagar/Return to Ostagar most of 'a Location state' and less a quest, and have 'the Quest on its own' with out the location details? (I only didn't mention this before cause we have soo many Return to Ostagar articles and related articles). I just really need firm foundation to work with when I redo all the locations and haev a finish product for Loleil to put on the our wiki format style for locations." and "quest or/and states of Locations are going to have more complexity (location revisited/reworked/restocked and it will be either as a state or quest state but the Location still the base) but still need something to keep them connected to the parent. I am aware of parent child relationships my last job of three years was completely based on parent child relationships and subs, I worked and reworked with such relationships and have certain guidelines I find universal and mainly the idea of this sub/states of an article." I need definite allowed consistency of states of locations would, we have to make a call and start having Ostagar (Expansion), Denerim (Expansion), cause that is evil, and having lets say a quest and a state of a Location, if the quest is less of an article than the state of the Location before and after in lets say the expansion, would a call be made? Can I have an Return to Ostagar (Quest) and the Ostagar/Return to Ostagar, as a state? you haven't clarified anything... a ya or nay wasn't my concern my concern if nay, how the heck are we going to work around that and consistency. Its easy to say no, but ya can't say it and leaving me hanging with all the issues afterwards.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 23:35, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
And its not a matter of me feeling passionate (I feel a little patronized here), you just came here and said ok this entire project that has been worked through and most the details panned out and the basis of naming and organized on has to change an element (putting the updates on hold to boot). All I have been saying by changing this element re-precisions happen to avoid them I'll tell you how and why it works, with out havign to change them. And instead of helping me work out the details, you say sorry no, and pat me on the head and say there there...? Now I can except your quest thing but really, I need assistance especially how it is a concern of yours. Can I have Return to Ostagar as a state with Location Details and removed Location details from the Quest Return to Ostagar, it of course seem like return to Ostagar it over done because DLC, Quest, and now further with the Location state for the DLC/Quest. But if expansion has a new state for a current Location lets say Denerim Market District, and not as a quest, Denerim Market District (Expansion)? to keep consistency and keeping the expansion in mind and updates to Locations may not be at all quest based, how can I go around this keeping you happy? That is what I am passionate about, keeping consistency, Location theme/style, you and Loleil happy.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 00:05, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Really sorry if I gave the impression that I was okay with having the page about RtO as a sub-page of Ostagar. I was just happy to leave it up so other users could comment on the two presentations we gave under Sample Page and when I mentioned Ostagar as my favourite city page it was because of the simple nature of the headings, not because of the sub-page. I think it makes sense to give quest, DLC, and location articles their own pages.

As I mentioned down under sample pages, I think we need to decide on a case-by-case basis and as much as possible I would like us to sub-section our way to success. In the case of Ostagar the involvement that happens in the actual location can easily covered on the pre-existing Ostagar page. As to the larger issue of locations visited again in future expansions I honestly feel that this is an issue that we won't have to deal too much as I suspect the developers will want to show us new locations. If they don't, and the extent of the revisiting is such that it can't be adequately covered by sub-sections, I don't think it's too inelegant to have pages with titles such as "Orzammar (Origins)" and "Orzammar (Awakening)" or whatnot. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 09:08, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Old Reference

Icons

I was wondering if it be ok to change (on the articles only) Template:LocationInfobox to Template:LocationTransformer so that I can use this style for zone/location pages:

Exits:

Ico Castle Ostagar

I only changed one article Ostagar, it seems completely unaffected with bonus my template now working. I will be glad to do all the updates, I just want approval first. I added most of the icons from the Dragon age world map already.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 13:32, February 2, 2010 (UTC)


I can't see a problem with doing this, though we probably need to wait until Tierrie and Loleil have chance to comment. Zoev talk 14:45, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
I like it! Each location also has an icon associated with it - from the world map or the local map. When using an icon to represent locations, those icons should be the ones used. With the exception of notable locations like Honnleath, Denerim, Soldier's Peak, the icons can be fairly generic. So they always need to be used in the context of a place and never alone. -- tierrie talk contr 18:56, February 2, 2010 (UTC)


These are all the icons I uploaded so far. I can prolly start updating later on today.

Ico Camp Ico Back Alley Ico Castle Ico Cave Ico Denerim Ico Denerim Market District Ico Dock Ico Estate Ico Forest Ico Hut Ico Orzammar Ico Other Location Ico Ruins Ico The Pearl Ico Tower Ico Village Ico Soldiers Peak Ico Honnleath

These easily can be used for multiple locations, I do admit, I have gotten very icon happy lately :P  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 19:07, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

I am pro-image and pro-icon. So that's alright by me. -- tierrie talk contr 19:09, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
I am also pro-seeing pretty things! Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 11:48, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Location Names

Ok, now that I am going through each location, I am finding some discrepancies. For Brecilian Ruins currently Ruins Upper Level.

World map location names this 'Brecilian Ruins'. Dungeon Map breaks down the Brecillian Ruins into 'Ruins Upper Level' + 'Ruins Lower Level' (world map names: 'Eleven Ruins' for both upper and lower) and 'Werewolf Lair' (both dungeon and world map). I am going to create a 'Brecilian Ruins' to do a quick cover of each dungeon map / level as a whole. So it can be true to in game locations.

Any other discrepancies, I will document here to keep everyone informed, I will be true to in game location names and break downs, so this shouldn't cause any upset.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 07:33, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

I need an admin to move Lair of the Werewolves -> Werewolf Lair, 'Werewolf Lair' is the true map location name.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 07:41, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
I'd also like to amalgamate Ruins Upper Level + Lower Ruins to The Elven Tombs. For a world map location and not articles for dungeon levels unless they are too long of an article that should be separated.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 08:07, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
The Village of Haven -> Village of Haven (true Map Name).  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 10:01, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
Hi Hollowness. You should have the option to move pages yourself (I think any registered user can do it, the option should appear at the top of the page), but give me a shout if you still need help. I like your idea of amalgamating the articles for the Upper and Lower levels of the ruins - I'd be tempted to do something similar with Redcliffe Castle, Redcliffe Castle - Main Floor, Redcliffe Castle - Basement and Redcliffe Castle - Upper Floor if I had time! However, with respect to using the name Elven Ruins there's also a location called that in the Dalish Elf Origin - it doesn't appear on the world map, but that's the in-game name and these ruins are also in the Brecilian Forest (there's also a location called Forest Clearing in the Dalish origin, which duplicates a random encounter location - grr). For that reason, my feeling is that Elven Ruins should continue to be a disambiguation page, and the elven ruins encountered during Nature of the Beast should be called something else - "Elven Ruins - Werewolf Lair" perhaps. Just my feeling, though - I could be convinced otherwise. Zoev talk 11:41, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Oops, I was wrong I had the wrong Name I am not touching Elven Ruins, I needed The Elven Tombs. Hollowness | Talk | Contr 14:45, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

No, cause I get a disclaimer saying please ask a admin to move this cause the page already exists and DO NOT COPY PASTE the article because the history will be lost.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 12:21, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
Unless, however, no one cares about that.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 12:26, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

World Map vs. Zone Map

Ok, going through the locations, I noticed zone map names are being used instead of World Map locations for some locations. Now I am not going to change them all to 'World Map' names, unless it is wanted. Lemme know what you want.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 14:28, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. Good question. My thought is that whilst it would be nice to be consistent, it doesn't really matter if the article has the World Map name with a redirect from the Area Map name or vice versa, as long as it can be found both ways (with a caveat where there are duplicate names for different locations where we probably want disambiguation pages instead and the article names may need to be qualified with text in parentheses). On moving pages, is it just the Village of Haven one that needs doing now? If so, I'd probably just cut and paste the text of the "The Village of Haven" article into the current "Village of Haven" redirect article and add a redirect to that from the old "The Village of Haven" article. There may be a more cunning admin way of doing it, but as you know, I'm new to this admin business! Zoev talk 16:40, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Here it is, most of the World Map locations / City locations, I still need to do Denerim alleys, Estates and such. Note the ones marked and named (with the real World Map Location).

Locations Transfered from LocationInfobox -> LocationTransformer:

World map may refer to the following maps:

Disambig gray This disambiguation page lists articles associated with the same title.
If an internal link led you here, you may wish to change the link to point directly to the intended article.


Ico Thaig Aeducan Thaig

Anvil of the Void may refer to:

Disambig gray This disambiguation page lists articles associated with the same title.
If an internal link led you here, you may wish to change the link to point directly to the intended article.
Ico Estate Arl of Redcliffe's Estate *Redirect ref. Arl of Redcliffe's Estate
Ico Back Alley Battlefield *Redirect ref. Battlefield
Ico Hut Dalish Camp *Redirect ref. Brecilian Outskirts
Ico Forest Brecilian Forest
Ico Ruins Brecilian Ruins
Ico Honnleath Cadash Thaig
Ico Camp Party Camp
Ico Caravan Caravan *Redirect ref. Caravan
Ico Cross Caridin's Cross
Ico Tower Circle Tower
Ico Civil Civil War *Redirect ref. Civil War
Ico Hut Dalish Camp
Ico Denerim Denerim
Ico Denerim Market District Denerim Market District
Ico Forest East Brecilian Forest
Ico Hut Flemeth's Hut
Ico Cave Frostback Mountains *Redirect ref. Frostback Mountains
Ico Honnleath Honnleath
Ico Forest Korcari Wilds
Ico Dock Lake Calenhad Docks
Ico Village Lothering
Ico Thaig Ortan Thaig
Ico Castle Ostagar
Ico Other Location Ransom Drop Location
Ico Castle Redcliffe Castle
Ico Cave Redcliffe Dungeons *Redirect ref. Redcliffe Dungeons
Ico Village Redcliffe Village
Ico Caravan Abandoned Meadow
Ico Ruins Ruined Temple *Redirect ref. Refugees
Ico Soldiers Peak Soldier's Peak
Ico Sulch Sulcher's Pass
Ico Thaig Dead Trenches
Ico Village Elven Alienage
Ico Cave Mountain Top *Redirect ref. The Dragon's Lair
Ico Cave Ruins Upper Level
Ico The Pearl The Pearl
Haven icon (Inquisition) Haven
Ico Cave Werewolf Lair
Ico Forest West Brecilian Forest

*I'd like to rename pages to the world map location names if it is allowed.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 18:14, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Now I think about it, there is perhaps an advantage to using area names (ie displayed on area map) rather than world map locations: not all locations appear on the world map (eg chantries, pubs, shops, some origin story locations) but all do have area names, so if we went for world map names for locations on the world map (or Denerim or Deep Roads maps) then we'd still have to use area names for other locations, so there would be a mishmash. On the other hand, we maybe don't always want a separate article for each location with a unique area name (eg The Elven Tombs, Redcliffe Castle, Arl of Denerim's estate). Perhaps, rather than having an article per area, we could have one per world/city/tunnels map location? Though the page for somewhere like Orzammar would get pretty long, it might be manageable if we hived off character, container, etc info to the walkthroughs as was mooted on Forum:Location Location Location (and as I've now done for Tower of Ishal as an example).In short, I just don't know. In general, I'm in favour of trimming location articles as far as possible in favour of having info in walkthroughs, so it's not scattered around/duplicated too much and for future-proofing in case of re-visiting the same location in DLC. Thus, I'd be in favour of Hollowness's suggestion of renaming location pages and getting rid of articles for "sub-locations" (their names could be made redirects to the overall location page). If we're not going to get rid of sub-location pages, however, I'd prefer to stick with the area map names so there's a consistent approach across all areas. Hope that's kind of clear. Zoev talk 19:43, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
I think for all locations on Wolrd Map to be named as such and all non mapped locations be sub-locations (or sections) an can be named by the area map. This way to have Locations and Sub-locations, to have some order to locations categorizing. So all Sub-categories will be linked to or under in some way to the world/city map location. Like I currently have for The Elven Tombs Location (World Map Location), Sub-Locations (Area Map Location): Ruins Upper Level, Ruins Lower Level. For all Locations with only one or two sub-locations to just redirect (unless it is enough to be split the articles into Location, sub-location 1 and sub-location 2). This I believe will be helpful for Locations that maybe revisited later on like DLCs and expansions and new Sub-locations created for them.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 20:10, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Location Info Box

Since, i was editing I noticed no rhyme nor rhythm to Location Type. Since now finally with xl, I can properly read the tool set and these are the types listed there:

Terrian

  • Mountains
  • Forest
  • Underground
  • Plains
  • Highway
  • Denerim
  • Denerim Climax (Normal)
  • Denerim Climax (Palace)

Map Pin

  • Castle
  • Cave
  • Ruins
  • Tower
  • Village
  • Camp
  • Deep Roads - Anvil
  • Caravan
  • City
  • Denerim - City Gates
  • Civil War
  • Cross
  • Deep Roads
  • Docks
  • Deep Roads - Thaig
  • Denerim - Estate
  • Farm
  • Forest
  • Hut
  • Denerim - Market
  • Orzammar
  • Denerim - Pearl
  • Point
  • Random
  • Denerim - Slums

So I was thinking having Terrain added to the location infobox and use it with type. In the toolset terrain is use for what kind of random encounter will happen when traveling on world map, Denerim map or deep roads map. If duplicate information happens like Terrian Forest and Type Forest, to not bother repeating information and stick to type.

Name: Anvil of the Void
Terrian: Underground
Type: Deep Roads

Name: Brecilian Ruins
Terrian: Forest
Type: Ruins

This is just a thought, either way I think locations need a bit of guidelines they are currently not very consistent. Lemme know what you guys think.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 22:38, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

I definitely agree that we could do with a clearer approach to locations, covering elements like the issues you raise above and how location articles relate to quest pages without undue overlap. There are a number of things to think about, including (and I am repeating things you've already mentioned):
  1. Do we need a page for every single area in the game, including one room houses? (I think we've been going with "yes" as the normal answer to this)
  2. When the "same" area appears more than once with different inahbitants, containers, etc, eg The Denerim Alienage, Ostagar, then should it have more than one page (eg Denerim Alienage - Origin, Denerim Alienage - Landsmeet, Denerim Alienage - Final Battle)? Whilst on Forum:Location Location Location the tendency was to think that there shouldn't be duplication of locations when they appear more than once in the game, we still had to work out the details of the approach and I think that those may throw up issues that mean it's better to change our mind.
  3. How should locations be grouped, and what higher level location pages are required? World Map locations would be one option, and probably a good one in annumber of cases. Though the Brecilian Forest should probably have its own page even though it's a number of world map locations, and there are also groups of locations, such as the Dalish Elf Origin ones that never appear on the world map - Highever Castle during the day and night is another problem example, which is also related to question 2 above.
  4. In fact, there is scope for thinking about whether origin story locations should be handled differently - at the moment, for the origin walkthroughs I've worked on Mage Origin and Dalish Elf Origin at least and I think this is the same for the other origins that have been fleshed out, the info is in the walkthrough rather than location pages. However, in the case of the walkthroughs I worked on, this was just because I didn't have answers to the questions here, and so avoided them by not getting involved in updating location pages.
  5. What location types do we need? I'd definitely prefer something that really means something in the game, like the Terrain as you suggest, rather than, as at present, something pretty arbitrary.
  6. Exactly how much information should there be about inhabitants, enemies, items, etc on location pages? Where a location is relevant to only one quest, having this information in both articles is just duplication (not inherently a bad thing if we're going for completeness, though can lead to inconsistency due to the maintenance burden). Note it only really makes sense to have item and enemy info if there's an article (or section on an article) for each individual occurrence of a location such as Ostagar. NB When thinking about the relationship between locations and quests, it's worth remembering there are random locations that aren't involved in any quests (which User:Mictlantecuhtli is doing work on at the moment).
  7. If we do go for articles for each instance of a location then how do we handle general information like background? I think the answer is to have a clear structure for location articles as Hollowness suggests, as and to put the background at the appropriate level of the structure and reference it from elsewhere - if that approach were taken it might be nice to have a short bit of background info in the location transformer that could be included, along with a {{Main}} link into sub (or summary) articles using a template.
  8. How do we handle locations with duplicate names such as Forest Clearing and Dalish Camp?
  9. Once the general approach has been agreed, do we need to review the location template and the parameters in the location infobox and make some changes?
  10. And, of course, once we know exactly what the approach is, what naming conventions are appropriate for location articles?
  11. A related question, that perhaps can be kept completely separate is how we deal with visitable versus non-visitable locations (eg Orlais and Val Royeaux versus Ferelden and Denerim) - though in a sense "Ferelden" and "Denerim" are non-visitable locations, as one can only visit specific locations within them - and though both do have area maps, those maps are likely to be specific to DA:O. And it's worth keeping in mind that what is currently a non-visitable location may become visitable in future so we may want to future-proof.
I'm sure that list isn't comprehensive - that's just off the top of my head. I'd certainly find it easier to have a proposal for dealing with locations in general rather than making calls on individual questions only to find that those incrementally lead to complications. I think there are various approaches that could work well, and our only issue at the moment is that we've got a sort of hybrid approach that's developed organically and now needs an overhaul. If I hadn't already bitten off more than I could chew, I'd be very tempted to start a locations overhaul project, whose first step would be to pull together a detailed proposal for handling locations on the wiki. Perhaps this is an approach you could consider, Hollowness, though I'd definitley wait to see if the other admins agree with me before spending any time on this. It may just be me and my pedantic (anal!?) desire to have a completely coherent, consistent and extensible approach to everything, and my excessive wariness about leaping before looking! Zoev talk 12:44, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
No, not anal, just my type of thinker. These are things to consider with expansion coming out we may revisit 1/2 these locations. If we have a base locations ie World map name then branch out each sub-locations and each scenario (ie before quest complete after, before landsmeet and after, etc.). Here are some things just of the top of my head.
  1. Map Location Name to be Generic, details of the basics of the area no matter what before or after events take place. With that list all other map locations and sub-locations related , expample:
    1. Brecilian Forest:
  2. Next, the state of the location. Example: Dalish Camp/First Encounter, Dalish Camp (Origins), Dalish Camp/Nature of the Beast Complete, Dalish Camp/Return to the Dalish (example of if the expansion revisits this location). Now On the most part this may be cover on the location or sub-location articles, unless these articles gets too long example: Ostagar and Return to Ostagar. I think they should be renamed like this to as follows:
    1. Ostagar:
      • Ostagar/Battle of Ostagar (First encounter)
      • Ostagar/Return to Ostagar (DLC)
      • Ostagar/Rebuilding Ostagar (quick example,if we were to return for future revisiting)
  3. Then what makes an article and what remains on a Location or Sub-location. To avoid countless stubs or until the article is return for splitting. Should this be monitored by Admins and active editors? Should we Split now and have stubs, we need to make that call.
  4. With that how to name Locations, I still believe World Map Locations Names with World Map Locations and Area Map Names for Sub-Locations but past that like the state or origins story, who should we go about naming, should be given as at least a guideline.
  5. Info boxes, no maps only screen shots, if this ear can be revisited or changed it seems inappropriate to have maps as images. Description, is a World Map Location, descriptions are the mouse overs if description is needed. If not any other descriptions should be in the body of the article. Appearances? if we are having a location per state of the locations (final battle etc)/DLCs/Expansions ok, if not this maybe be available for all Expansions so why say appearances Dragon Age: Origins, for every location. I covered the terrain and type above, i still think that is an idea. Inhabitance/Enemies/Merchants etc. I think it should be named Characters (Main characters, companions/main plot NPCs, Quest Givers (do not repeat a main NPCs name if he is a quest giver too or should we?), Merchants, (or all NPCs), Enemies. The rest can be mentioned in the body of the article, ie. 'Dalish Camp, inhabited by Dalish'.
    1. or
Thoughts of just somethings on top my head. If we work out the we want I can set this up as official project, if needed.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 17:15, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
Bump, I think I might make this my next top project I want to make sure I got everyones inputs and okays.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 19:33, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Wow! I've gotten behind on this topic. Let me try to get up to date.

  • No. I don't think we need a page for every location. I just don't see a need for pages for the old one room houses. Instead, I think the location pages should be as much as possible focused on main areas. To take something like Redcliffe CastleI think it would work better if all the sub-pages were merged into one.
  • I think as much as possible we should keep the info about locations on one page. I suppose we won't really be able to really know until we get more games though.
  • I think my ideal page layout for locations would be
    • Introduction (no heading, just an introductory paragraph providing background info)
    • Involvement (prose description of what happens in a location)
    • Quests and Quest Givers
    • Notable Items
  • For Infoboxes
    • Picture of location
    • Terrain
    • Merchants
    • Appearances (I think this will help solve the visitable/non-visitable problem aswell)

It's sounding like we another project in the works. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 03:00, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Something like that was my first thought, too! However, the more I think about how it would work in practice for locations which can be visited in different states like Ostagar, The Denerim Alienage and Denerim Market District, or locations with multiple sub-locations like Redcliffe Castle or the Alienage again, the more I worry that it will be too messy to have information at this high level and at the same time make it clear exactly where and when things can be found. I did write a long explanation of why, but I'll spare you that in favour of my suggested next step:
As Hollowness is at the point where she feels she can prioritize looking at locations, I'd find it extremely helpful if she could mock up an Ostagar page in her sandbox, based on the principles suggested by Loleil (if she could manage, perhaps, the Market District too, as an example of a location with both different sub-locations and different appearances that would be even better). We can then have concrete examples to look at, and if my concerns about messiness aren't borne out by the examples, then I'll happily go along with the suggested option. Zoev talk 12:10, February 6, 2010 (UTC)
Sure after I get done with the merchants, I'll Sample up so Location page (pages) choices and we can go from there. I do agree some sub locations are too same for there own page but some are too big to be lumped together but I'll show some fix alternatives soon :)  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 16:34, February 6, 2010 (UTC)
You could do it like in the game. Click on Denerim and then a Denerim map appears and then you click main Denerim or the pearl... Polexian ♦♦Talk♦♦ ♠♠Leave Message♠♠ 16:39, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Concept Locations Articles / Naming Articles

Alright, I do think we need to amalgamate and merge some sub-locations together. One possibility is Like this:

and

So if the article can hold its own leave it. If it is easily merged, unless conflicted with DLC or a climax state of the area, it can be amalgamated into one article. I just really don't think one article per Locations including all sub-locations will work.

or

Locations with Sub-locations which is less merges with speculation the article will be filled with information eventually but areas that defiantly have little to no info merged into the master location may it be a world map location or a area map location. Like:

and


Similar to the Ostagar/Return to Ostagar Test Moved: Return to Ostagar (Quest) => Ostagar/Return to Ostagar, if this is not used it can be reverted or if Loleil's, merge purposal takes on neither pages may not exist.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 03:39, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Sample Pages

Hollow's purposed Sub-Location page(<--test sample page)

Sub-location pages are less inclined to be stubs because they are related to the main article directly and would only be needed if the article is getting too long with different sub-locations or states of the location. As for infoboxes adding Terrain isn't possible since the locationinfobx is locked for editing. And decision for World Map names and area map names has this been thought about?  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 01:33, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

I dunno all one page just looks to cluttered to me, I like the sub location idea unless there isn't enough information for a 2nd article like I have here The Elven Tombs  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 01:38, February 7, 2010 (UTC)
That's not how I would do all in one page. I've just updated my sandbox so everyone can see how I see it working. As to world map vs. area map, I would be tempted to go with area map names as people will spend more time looking at area maps than world maps, and we can create redirects. Finally, I can go add terrain to the location box for you now. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 02:09, February 7, 2010 (UTC)
From what you said above thats what I assume you meant. Problem with your page, those with out DLC kinda get a tease, those first run through item spoiler and last you left out a lot of information and users will be adding information so it would be a over full page again. As for area maps if is VERY miss leading espcially if we are going to merge more pages together are you telling me you think change The Elven Tombs is better as Upper Level Ruins and Lower Ruins? because Brecilian Ruins and Elven Tombs are all World Map names (only sub-location should have area map names because that I believe it what it is suppose to represent or else they wouldn't have 2 different names).  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 02:14, February 7, 2010 (UTC)
I actually think area map names, as sub headings might work, if we have multiple locations under one World Map Locations. Using area map names inclines that each area map will get its own page, and even if we did have that eventually, I think waiting till then that be a better idea.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 02:25, February 7, 2010 (UTC)
I honestly think that's all we need to do for locations that appear in multiple editions of the game. In a proper page I would do a see also link to the quest pages so people could find any walkthrough info they would want, but I don't see enough to justify two pages for somewhere like Ostagar. Just my thoughts though, we can see what others think.
I was just thinking on the spot about what to name locations, and using those examples it obviously doesn't work so well :p. Sub-headings seems like a good idea, and we'll have to have a good look at the various location pages and see whether they each need their own page. Ah the joys of tidying! Friendship smallLoleil Talk 03:47, February 7, 2010 (UTC)
I mean ya, if pages clean up nice like your sample ok, but I foresee they won't remain clean for long with added information. But if it is decide to go that way, I mean we will make it work. When we get the rest of the input I'll add more on the subject.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 03:53, February 7, 2010 (UTC)
Thinking about it some more I think we are really going to need to decide on a case-by case basis, depending on how big the involvement is in each reappearance. Also I think it might be worth coming up with different templates depending whether something is a city/hub, a dungeon, or a world map encounter. Friendship smallLoleil Talk 23:48, February 7, 2010 (UTC)
I am back, sorry I was away for a few days, but ya I think a lot of pages will be case by case and ya sure different templates for different places especially a location base vs. a dungeon or city. I might do so test sample on that for help too.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 19:28, February 10, 2010 (UTC)
I shouldve kept track of all of this as it was posted, but I am actually taking a break from that project. I am close to burning myself out on the game entirely, which is why I have only poked around in the toolset and posted workarounds for bugged items, etc so people can acquire them in-game. Feel free to make any changes you need to, I will catch up to the new style when I get my interest back in actually playing and finish the incomplete pages in the new style. Mictlantecuhtli 04:22, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
Ok, for Loleil's more towards merging concept, besides that case by case will have to be decided. Here is a concept of Articles 'Brecilian Forest' (World Map Location (Main)), 'Brecilian Outskirts (aka Dalish Camp)' (Sub Locations city/camp) and 'Brecilian Ruins' (Sub Location as Dungeon). Currently over 5 articles merged into only 3. Now this is the concept following Loleil's idea if we choose to 'mass merge'.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 07:30, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
Looks good, though those respawns are not dependent on completing Nature of the Beast you can simply leave the area and then go back to get the areas to respawn some enemies. Mictlantecuhtli 14:06, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
That's looking good to me Hollowness Smiley. I think we can implement those pages and see what sort of feedback we get once people start viewing them. And I don't know what was going on with the spammer either. Boredom? Friendship smallLoleil Talk 01:15, February 15, 2010 (UTC)
Lawl, my boredom is constructive like, adding 'appearances' to each and every infobox, update LocationsInfobox -> LocationTransformer, adding icons icons and more icons or going and cleaning/reorganize my kitchen, alphabetize my CDs, games and DVDs, and usually at 3 in the morning to boot! LOL.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 01:43, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

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