Forum:Legacy: Time for more wild speculation.

Forums: Index > Lore DiscussionLegacy: Time for more wild speculation.

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SPOILERS, obviously.

So! It turns out that Corypheus is indeed one of the original Imperial Magisters, just as we suspected. And, thanks to Hawke's firm grasp on the idiot ball, he is now wandering around loose and unfettered and doing who knows what. This leads to a few interesting (possible) conclusions.

1) The Chantry was right. OR WERE THEY?

So it looks like the Imperial Magisters really did cause the creation of the first darkspawn. However, it doesn't seem to have happened exactly like the Chantry teaches that it did. The Chantry says that it was the pride of men that made the Magisters attack the Golden City and try to steal the Maker's power.

And yet, Corypheus says that the city was already black when they got there. That in itself might not mean much... maybe it was instantly corrupted the very second that Corypheus and his buddies arrived? But it may also be very significant, because Corypheus also tells us that it wasn't even the magisters' idea to go to the Golden City. According to Corypheus, it was the Old God Dumat who told them that the city was meant to be theirs.

Corypheus still worships Dumat as a god. He calls on Dumat's power to help him fight, and he initially believes that a church of Dumat-worshippers is still in existence. Corypheus says nothing about the presence of any Maker or an attempt to steal the Maker's power. Perhaps the old Tevinter Imperials didn't know about/believe in the Maker at all?

Also... what's all this about dwarves discovering some dark power corrupting the stone, and setting generations of their warriors to guard against it? Maybe the dwarves' history of the darkspawn and the Chantry's version both have some basis in fact, even if neither version got all of the details correct.

2) Was the Architect actually a Tevinter Magister?

So now we see that thinking, powerful-magic-using darkspawn existed and were known by the Grey Wardens in times long past. Corypheus is apparently immortal. And the Architect never says how old he is, and has no understanding of how he came to be so different from his fellow darkspawn.

Given Corypheus's confusion when he first awakens, could it be that the Architect is himself one of the original Tevinter magisters? Has he suffered some kind of memory loss, or simply gone mad over time and come to believe himself to be just an aberration among darkspawn, instead of one of their progenitors? Maybe, maybe not. But I really don't think the similarities between Corypheus and the Architect are an accident or a sign of laziness on Bioware's part. I think there has to be some kind of connection between the two.

3) So what's the deal with this mysterious "song," already?

The darkspawn hear the call of the Old Gods as some weird kind of song. The sleeping Corypheus was singing the song, apparently in imitation of the Old Gods. The mysterious lyrium idol had some kind of link to the song. This "song" is apparently audible mostly to people who have been tainted in some way, either by being darkspawn, eating darkspawn, being Grey Wardens, or... oddly... ingesting lyrium. Remember, Bartrand was feeding his guards lyrium in the hope that it would help them hear "the song" better.

Apparently, the "song" is some kind of magical mind control. In Corypheus's case at least, while he was sleeping and dreaming and whatnot, he was also broadcasting the "song" as a way of calling Grey Wardens and others to come and set him free. Is that what the Old Gods are doing, too? Are they imprisoned, and wanting to be freed... even at the cost of becoming tainted? Or were they perhaps tainted already?

4) So what does it all mean?

Dumat is apparently a tricky trickster. The Tevinter Mages seem to have been manipulated into invading the Golden/Dark City. There is increasing evidence of a link between the Old Gods and/or darkspawn and the mysterious lyrium idol that helped mess things up in Kirkwall.

At this point there seem to be three main storylines going on in Dragon Age right now:

1) Old Gods, darkspawn, and Blights. 2) Morrigan, Flemeth, and the Old God Baby. 3) The Mage/Templar war.

Is all of this about the Old Gods trying to free themselves, first from their imprisonment (darkspawn mind-slaves dig them out), and then from the taint (witches rescue their souls with Old God Baby rituals)? Was the mage/Templar war triggered by the Old Gods/Corypheus as part of some plot to free themselves? Or is the connection between these things entirely tangential?

We still have very few answers to the big questions in this series. Still, with the Corypheus/Dumat revelation, some things about the darkspawn and the Old Gods are now a tiny bit clearer.--DarkAger (talk) 02:34, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

I can't provide too much, since I haven't played Legacy, but this "dark power corrupting the stone" reminds me of the Gangue Shade, and everything revolving around that. Is that related? Dragonseth07 (talk) 02:47, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

In your first paragraph, you mentioned that Corypheus is "now wandering around loose and unfettered and doing who knows what." You do know you can kill him right? Or were you refering to Hawke? (who could be doing the same) Crimpycracker (talk) 02:49, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

At the end of the DLC, it's rather obvious to the player that Larius/Jeneka became possessed by Corypheus: "If I cannot leave with you, I will leave through you!" > "The prison stands no more. My gratitude you have, for my freedom."/"I feel like... a whole new person." Of course, Hawke can't do anything about it, as usual.

As for the old Magisters sieging the Golden/Black City with help of Dumat, that's not new. 82.156.214.20 (talk) 03:08, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

Until you can provide proof otherwise, I say yes, the Dumat angle is new. Sure, the Old Gods were the ones who were supposed to have taught the magisters Blood Magic. But I don't recall any previous codex entry or conversation that indicated it was Dumat who had told the Tevinter mages "now go invade the Golden City."--DarkAger (talk) 03:19, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

We know that Tevinter Mages went to the Golden/Black City and came back tainted either because the black city tainted them or as the Golden City became tainted so did they. But we don't know where the first Darkspawn came from. Its said that the Dwarfs were the first to see Darkspawn, wouldn't it make more sense that the Tevinter Mages would turn Humans first. So could it mean that some Dwarf become tainted similarly to the Tevinter Mages and said Mages used the taint to command the Darkspawn to find the Old Gods or the Old Gods were already tainted and buried in the earth and tainted Dwarfs.Catawk (talk) 03:02, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

Well, if the purpose of the Tevinter magisters becoming tainted was so that they could free the Old Gods, the newly tainted magisters might have gone underground trying to find the Old Gods on their own at first. They maybe brought their servants and concubines and whatever with them, resulting in the first hurlocks. But then maybe when they realized they were going to need a lot more help digging for Old Gods, they began working with the resources at hand, tainting the crap out of every dwarf they could find.--DarkAger (talk) 03:25, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

The "song" as described in the DLC sounded very much to me like Mass Effect's Reaper indoctrination. Wsowen02 (talk) 07:25, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

A few comments:

- Corypheus comments, Dumat promised them "The Power of the Gods", plural. Also it is remarkable that Corypheus never mentions the Maker at all, even though the Chantry claims the Golden City was his home. - So we have some Old Gods, who are presumable identical with the Dragons/Demons who lead the Blights; they advise the Tevinter mages how to invade the Golden City, but why? Probably not out of benevolence, but because they can't do it themselves. One explanation would be they are identical with the Forgotten Ones of Dalish mythology, who were banished by Fen'Harel. But who was in the Golden City? Corypherus just says it was dark "ever since". That can both be it has always been dark, or it has been dark since they got there, the wording isn't entirely clear. We only know THEY, the Tevinter Mages were darkened after they came to the City. - There is nothing geniuenly evil about Dumat or Corypheus as we see here. Sure, Corypheus is twisted by the Blight, but there is no indicated of general evil whatsoever, besides that he attacks those of whom he thinks are his prisoners. But what/who really was/is in the Golden/Black City is still entirely unanswerable. Alas. - IMVPO the Lyrium also plays a privotal role in the puzzle. Think how we always hear about the Song, the Old Gods use, and as we found out in DA2, some Lyrium still has the same "song" like the "Blight leaders" and the Old Gods. Hawke can pray to Dumat at the altar and get something, which may indicate Dumat is not entirely dead. Maybe just the form of the Old Gods is destroyed?

Elikal (talk) 07:55, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

It is a very interesting theory that perhaps the Old Gods are already corrupted, perhaps thats why they were imprisioned beneath the earth in the first place, and that they sing this song "some form of mind control" so that the darkspwan will find them and release them. Maybe they are the source of the Taint and not the victims of it. Dumat apparently tricked corypheus promising him the "light" - power and knowledge, maybe because he wanted the Taint to spread on the surface through magisters.

AlexWillDO (talk) 12:42, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

After just finishing Legacy, I'm wondering as well if the Architect wasn't a Magister. The simularities between the Architect and Corypheus are obvious. Gruedragon (talk) 09:43, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

I also just finished Legacy, so let me add my 2 cents: If the Golden City was in fact already black/corrupted when the magisters arrived, wouldn't it be possible for this to be a trick to bring the corruption into the mortal realm? But as to who is the mastermind behind this theoretical plot, I have no clear idea except for maybe Dumat as a way to rule the mortal realm, or something else entirely. I know there are some maybes and ifs but that thought just crossed my mind, so I'd like to hear your opinion on this. --Tanis84 (talk) 12:42, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

Acutally the Architect DOES mention that he was born like any other darkspawn, but was born intelligent. He compares this to someone born with magic: an unforseeable accident. He could be lying but i dont see any reason for him to be. If he remembered being human then why is he unable to relate to humanity? If he knew the true origins of darkspawn then why does he seem at a loss about how to help his fellow darspawn. If he remembered he would have something to go on, but his experiments show him to have little to know idea how to go about his goal. And can i just point out the fact that oe intelligent darkspawn being a Tevinter mage does not mean that all intelligent darkspawn were Tevinter mages. Corypheus was mentioned as the leader of many intelligent darkspawn. And the Architect shows that more may be born. The possiblities are many--Ironreaper (talk) 15:35, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

And wasnt it already clear that the early Tevinter magistars never knew about the Maker? The religon did not exist back then so why would they? They clearly believed in the Old Gods. It is clear the Chantry brought things more to their perspective, but they wanted to enter the Golden City. To them it was heaven, not the throne of God. It was their Shambala, Nirvana, etc.--Ironreaper (talk) 15:39, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

And wasnt it already clear that the early Tevinter magistars never knew about the Maker?

While the Chantry didn't exist back then, and there was obviously no Andrasteism since Andraste hadn't even been born yet, that isn't to say there was no Maker-worship at all. People didn't start out worshipping the Old Gods-- the story goes that the Old Gods somehow tricked people into worshipping them instead of the Maker. That would imply that people had worshipped the Maker to begin with. Apparently even after the temples of the Old Gods were formed, the Maker hadn't completely faded from human memory, because Andraste started her whole Exalted March by praying to the Maker to return and save her people. If a presumably-uneducated barbarian slave woman like Andraste knew enough about the Maker to pray to him, then it seems reasonable to expect that the pre-Blight magisters would have known about the Maker too, even if they didn't worship him themselves.

The thing is, the Chantry's story has it that the magisters attacked the Golden City because they wanted to "usurp the Maker's throne." Your point about this just being the Chantry's perspective about what happened is well taken. Even if the Tevinter mages did know about the Maker (as I think is likely), you're probably also right that because they didn't worship the Maker, they didn't believe that the Golden City was the Maker's home. Still, up until now the Chantry's perspective was the only one we had gotten. This is the first in-game confirmation we've had that shows that 1) the Chantry does have some of the details right about what happened in the Golden City, but 2) the Chantry's understanding of what happened in the Golden City is not literally correct. We now know that while the magisters did indeed invade the Golden City, they were motivated not by the desire to literally "usurp the Maker's throne," but by the promises of Dumat. Apparently the Tevinter magisters weren't even trying to take anything by force: they believed that ultimate power had been promised to them and was going to be handed to them on a silver platter. But Dumat, who isn't even mentioned in the Chantry's version of the Golden City's fall, seems to have deceived them for some reason of his own.--DarkAger (talk) 18:50, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

@Ironreaper, seeing how the Architect lied when he said only dead Wardens were taken from the Vigil (Keenan was still alive), he could very well be lying about his origins. Gruedragon (talk) 15:52, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

@Ironreaper-With all do respect, you put too much fate in Architects words, to be honest even before Legacy came out, i had some thoughts about him(the Architect)being a magister, because if you look at him, you can see that he wears robes somewhat similar to mage's robes, he also wears some weird accessories/jewelry on his cheast and arms and some sort of crown with mask(unlike any other darkspawn), plus he has very powerful magical abilities... and how exactly being inteligent in the deep roads with other darkspawn helps you develop almost perfect speech, and if anything his experiments with blood (even not very succesful ones) tells us that he is familiar with blood magic/rituals as were the magisters of Old Tevinter. AlexWillDO (talk) 16:27, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

Ah whilst I do agree with you, there are some counter-arguments to your points that I feel I'll just get out there before someone else does and tries to belittle you with them, as seems to be the case with some discussions on the forums these days. According the The Calling, the Architect spent time in dwarven libraries, learning to read the dwarven language over however long it took him. Given the relations between dwarves and the Imperium it wouldn't be surprising for the Architect to learn of the old magicks from dwarven literature. Also, the Architect had means to contact mages in the Fade, as it did with First Enchanter Remille. Could be that Remille taught The Architect blood magic just as The Architect taught Remille darkspawn magic. I am more inclined to believe The Architect was in fact a Magister, but I just thought I'd get these points out there before someone else does. (DDragonfly1990 (talk) 16:40, July 27, 2011 (UTC))

Meh, no offence taken AlexWillDO. I did consider it possible, even likely the Architect is a liar. His clothes are probably not the best why to base your option of him since bioware would likely use a model they already have. But your points arent really solid either. Blood magic is known to ALL darkspawn emisaries know blood magic and if any mage can learn it, so can the Architect. so being a former Tevinter mage is not a prerequisite. And wasnt Keenan part of a group that attacked the mines independently? So he did not really lie. And thats what the Architect does mostly. tells the truth, but only half truths. This still does not explain why he does not have any memory of his humanity in his past. While on the other hand, he clearly is shown to have a knowledge of the Old Gods. He even identifies the Archdemon he corupted, which is interesting since no character knew which Old God it was and we only know because of the Codex. Hhhhhmmmmmm (smokes pipe)--Ironreaper (talk) 16:50, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

Well, thanks for telling me this, because i've never actualy read the Calling and it is nice to know that now...P.S. And i can't believe that similarities between Corypheus and The Architect just because of pure Bioware laziness! AlexWillDO (talk) 16:52, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

I don't remember all of the dialogue with Keenan, but I believe he was among the Wardens captured by the Darkspawn. And Varel doesn't mention anything about any surviving Wardens going after the Darkspawn (just Kristoff off on his mission). I'll try to pay closer attention next time I play Awakening. And @AlexWillDO, both The Calling and The Stolen Throne are very good books. Gruedragon (talk) 17:07, July 27, 2011 (UTC)