One of my favorite aspects of DA:O was that it was very dark and gritty. I'm not just talking about blood and gore. I'm talking about how the world of Dragon Age seems like a really grim place, highly violent and politically-charged, with the corruptive influence of the Blight always hanging over our heads. For all the witty banter with your companions, the in-game universe took itself seriously.
DA:II has plenty of gore, but it doesn't feel very dark to me. First of all, the Blight is gone so there is not really a doom-and-gloom theme to begin with. Secondly, the NPC's seem to me more like bumbling idiots than men and women of grand ambition. There's not really a character akin to Howe, Loghain, Bhelen, or even Zathrian. The only one with a consistent policy is the Arishok. Meredith doesn't play a significant role until Act III, and even then it's hard to say whether she or the magic sword is more responsible for her actions. Orsino turning into a blood mage was ridiculous. Through all this Hawke can act as a bystander (diplomatic), troll (sarcastic), or grumpy teen (angry), none of which lend much gravitas to the game.
I liked plenty about DA:II, but it just feels like a different game than DA:O. Some characters, like Fenris, seem more fit for Final Fantasy than Dragon Age. The Legacy DLC seemed like a return to form, but Mark of the Assassin and its nonsensical plot (a chevalier riding a wyvern? That's so not appropriate for the DA universe), not to say Felicia Day pandering (don't really care for her character or voice-acting) felt like the franchise is moving further than closer to DA:O.
What does everyone think? Whocares65 (talk) 07:05, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
I have been thinking about this for a while, and i agree. In fact, i'm playing Origins now, and one of the things I have seen, is the darker places you go. Look at Kirkwall, its all white and brown, it doesn't have a mixture of colors that make a gloomy environment. And, its always sunny, there's no change in weather. And, agreeing with the above poster, there's just not any real characters that have a big goal, more like "Something made me mad, now i'm pissed, so i'm going to bother Hawke and make him help me, then i'm going to do it again in the next couple quests." This is just what I see, anyway. --Blood Prince (talk) 14:42, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
Compared to DA:O, not really. I think it barely qualifies. I think the game would have a lot stronger base as dark fantasy if the color scheme wasn't all bright and cheery and the developers had done a better job of giving the impression that mages were constantly oppressed while the rest of the world either ignored or allowed it. It's not that the effort wasn't there, it's just that there wasn't enough of it. MotA did not help things. I am still not over the fact that they not only included a wyvern, but that they actually had someone riding it. I already have all the achievements, so I'm content to let MotA gather dust from now on. But I digress. Anyway, in summary, as far as dark fantasy goes: D for effort. --Isolationistmagi (talk) 15:12, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
Completely agree that DA2 went from dark into a blank and bland territory. It seriously lacks in the department of great villains, there are no plot twists that would turn Hawke's life upside down, no Damocles' sword above his head... Templars are abusive and opressive only where he cannot see them (which is a pity, since it would require only a couple more cutscenes to build up an image of Kirkwall as a city held in an iron grip of tyranny). No, definitely nowhere next to a dark fantasy, which wouldn't be a bad thing in itself, if only the darkness was actually replaced by _something_, instead of just removed. --Ygrain (talk) 16:38, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
To be fair (and this from one who criticized DA2 at every chance) they did try. While the whole story put together is not actually grim like DAO's...it has more of...horror-esque feel. The strange idol...the sewers which have notes about blood of slaves. Necromancers...haunted mines etc. There are some grim and thought provoking (as in human nature 'dark') parts too. The Saarebas Ketojen's story. The Count and his son's story. The magister's son who kills Elven children.
But yeah the level has fallen when compared to DAO. I mean that game had the best of everything. The small quest about the haunted orphanage in the Alienage, was as blood chilling as the most horrifying parts of DA II.Diain (talk) 16:42, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
- But that's about the worst part of it: the wasted potential. There are basically all the components that make a great story and an immersive setting - and they are not used to the full. It could have been such a wonderful tale... a different kind of dark and grim than in Origins, but equally awesome. --Ygrain (talk) 16:57, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
- Interesting point Diain, and I agree Ygrain. While I concur that the devs did try to make it dark, I think it was that they tried too hard, so many elements just seemed cheesy or clichéd, almost like a B movie (All That Remains springs to mind). The only part that I found to be dark (as in gritty and grim), was the Enigma of Kirkwall plot (which didn't have a satisfying conclusion IMHO), though I also agree that was a certain darkness that surrounded the representation of human nature, more of a light tragedy than a dark fantasy tale. It's not just the plot to blame, but things like the art style, IMO, which seemed to cartoonish to me and took the dark, grim atmosphere away somewhat. It was the little things which often made DA:O: the dim lighting, the pestilence and misery which blighted the city elves, the massacre of children in an orphanage and the suggestion of violations, and always hanging over it all, was the feeling that there was something dark and evil which loomed on the horizon, always just of sight. It's what you don't see that's scary.
King Cousland | Talk 16:59, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
- Right and right again. The implementation of the serial killer getting someone from the family is sooo old, and the way it was done - aargh, this has been discussed to the death. I think it is a pity that the Enigma of Kirkwall didn't play a more crucial part in the story, it could have added flavour comparable to the darkspawn threat. - Speaking of which, the Deep Roads in DA:O were really creepy, in DA2, they looked quite good in cutscenes but in the gameplay, not at all. The Denerim Alienage was a true ghetto full of despair; the Kirkwall Alienage was just a ridiculously small area with a tree... and so on. It's totally past me how the devs could not have seen this, or missed the impact of the changes they made.
- I agree with what everyone has said. Perhaps if Dragon Age II would have spent another year in development, it would have been a great game on par with Origins, instead of just a good game that's not even close to Origins. Maybe they set the bar too high with Origins, if the feel of the series they are going for is more in line with DA2 and it's expansions. DeltaEcho (talk) 22:17, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
- If they did not redo almost all the game play elements from origins they would of had much more time for the story, the changes there were hardly even for the better either. I really would like to know what was going through the heads of the developers when they were laying out the roadmap for the game.174.45.9.40 (talk) 00:59, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with what everyone has said. Perhaps if Dragon Age II would have spent another year in development, it would have been a great game on par with Origins, instead of just a good game that's not even close to Origins. Maybe they set the bar too high with Origins, if the feel of the series they are going for is more in line with DA2 and it's expansions. DeltaEcho (talk) 22:17, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
- Right and right again. The implementation of the serial killer getting someone from the family is sooo old, and the way it was done - aargh, this has been discussed to the death. I think it is a pity that the Enigma of Kirkwall didn't play a more crucial part in the story, it could have added flavour comparable to the darkspawn threat. - Speaking of which, the Deep Roads in DA:O were really creepy, in DA2, they looked quite good in cutscenes but in the gameplay, not at all. The Denerim Alienage was a true ghetto full of despair; the Kirkwall Alienage was just a ridiculously small area with a tree... and so on. It's totally past me how the devs could not have seen this, or missed the impact of the changes they made.
- Interesting point Diain, and I agree Ygrain. While I concur that the devs did try to make it dark, I think it was that they tried too hard, so many elements just seemed cheesy or clichéd, almost like a B movie (All That Remains springs to mind). The only part that I found to be dark (as in gritty and grim), was the Enigma of Kirkwall plot (which didn't have a satisfying conclusion IMHO), though I also agree that was a certain darkness that surrounded the representation of human nature, more of a light tragedy than a dark fantasy tale. It's not just the plot to blame, but things like the art style, IMO, which seemed to cartoonish to me and took the dark, grim atmosphere away somewhat. It was the little things which often made DA:O: the dim lighting, the pestilence and misery which blighted the city elves, the massacre of children in an orphanage and the suggestion of violations, and always hanging over it all, was the feeling that there was something dark and evil which loomed on the horizon, always just of sight. It's what you don't see that's scary.
- I think it is too easy to nitpick at the resulting feel of DA2 and overlook what they did accomplish. I read the above comments and I have to agree with most of them; however, I can't help feeling that the overall impression of DA2 is not negative. Perhaps it is not as dark in tone and theme as DAO, but if they had continued the theme directly, we would have been bored by it. We needed a change of venue, and they gave it to us in the city-state of Kirkwall.
- I played DAO twice, maybe three times before I got bored with the dialogue and storyline. I've played DA2 at least a dozen times through, and I keep finding new twists, new quests, new character interactions. Everything is different depending upon which class you play, which companions you choose, and which choices you make. There is no overshadowing dark enemy, unless you see it from Anders' perspective -- that the Chantry and its Templars are the real source of evil. The Qunari are "bad guys", but not really... They are actually quite honorable, and predictable. They only become enemies because the Chantry force them into it. The mages have a potential for evil, but again are not that way by nature. They only become that way because they are forced into it by the Chantry and its oppression.
- Perhaps, BioWare did not do a good enough job of pointing out this central theme to the casual observer, but it is definitely there, and truth be told, it is far more chilling to see the dark hearts of men than it is the evil of already evil-at-heart darkspawn. In a way, the image of Kirkwall as a light/friendly place that houses this insidious evil IS the darkness hidden in plain sight. And therefore, it is just as dark, if not darker in a way, than DAO ever was.
JaceCar (talk) 16:14, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
It never was a dark fantasy from the start. Just normal high with heavy goth makeup. Dorquemada (talk) 16:20, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
- Of course, it's High Fantasy. That's what BioWare does. But it's complex and, arguably, Dark High Fantasy. Besides, the only person who's come even close to clearly defining Dark Fantasy is Kanye West. Futonrevoltion (talk) 16:52, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
- It is more complex than their other works, I can give them that. And they can pull occasional darkness as well. However, what I am really interested in, is Mr West's definition of Dark Fantasy. :-) Dorquemada (talk) 18:04, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
- Well, Kanye finds that Dark Fantasy is very rare, these days. True examples of Dark Fantasy follow the tropes of Roald Dahl, but are much too much for modern sensibilities. The water-downed sappy style has been around for centuries, designed to pander to children and the lowest denominator; it's all whack and corny and yet, somehow, rhymes with boring.
- There were too many Urkels on the DA2 development team; that's why it's Winslow. They pulled our toys and fired up a new game engine that made too much noise. When we finally get a new generation to revive the franchise, the sky will fill with herons... which is, presumably, a good thing. Futonrevoltion (talk) 18:35, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
- It is more complex than their other works, I can give them that. And they can pull occasional darkness as well. However, what I am really interested in, is Mr West's definition of Dark Fantasy. :-) Dorquemada (talk) 18:04, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
I think the main reason why DAII is much brighter is not the color scheme - Kirkwall seemed rather grim to me mainly because of the slave statues, tiny barred windows and lots of beggars. The characters, mostly party members, are the main reason - they are much more humorous than in DA:O. Listening to the party banter of Varric, Isabela, Merrill and many of their dialogues made me lmao the entire game. Plus, sarcastic Hawke adds many lulz too.And am I the only one who has the feeling, that in DA:O everyone talks about the Blight, war and strife, but in DAII conversations are mostly about sex?---Algol- (talk) 23:27, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
Hey they had Zevern for that in DA:O.--Ironreaper (talk) 00:33, November 14, 2011 (UTC)
- @Ironreaper yeah, but now it feels like there's a Zevran in almost every person I meet in DAII---Algol- (talk) 01:06, November 14, 2011 (UTC)
I dont see the difference as all that extreme. Maybe DA:O was just subtle about it. You got Zevern, you got Oghern who is far less elojnt but just as sexual, you have Morigan you is open to sex rather thenm love, you have Leliana who admits to seducing targets in her youth and becomes a little sexual if you harden her and there is Wynne who admits to getting around a lot in her youth. I admit in DA2 it seemed a much less subtle thing. we have Isabella, Varric who enjoys the sublect escpessally with Isabella, Merril gets a few goes once in a while. Other then that it is less so. Anders (though he has a few laughs with Isabela) and Fenris (who doesnt like to be touched but has a flirty thing going on with Isabela) avoid the topic openly, but understandably bring it up if your in a romance. Bethany's a virgin. Carver is said to visit the Blooming Rose every so often. Avellin puts sex off for three years, so no go there and Seb is chast. Most of the sexual related things originate from Isabela and Hawke.--Ironreaper (talk) 01:57, November 14, 2011 (UTC)
Until this discussion, during which I wiki'd "dark fantasy," I didn't realize the genre generally referred to horror-inspired fantasy. I thought it referred to high fantasy in a grittier, more worldly setting than, say, Lord of the Rings or Guild Wars. I still get the feeling that this is what Bioware means when saying "dark fantasy," so arguably they are misusing the term. Fritzywiggins (talk) 04:30, November 14, 2011 (UTC)
- Wiki is great for checking facts, dealing purely with numbers, but absolutely dreadful for facts that deal with the liberal arts. Note how the entry for "high fantasy" starts out with "Middle-Earth fits this particular criterion, even though Tolkien always insisted that it didn't." You should treat wiki entries on these topics in the same manner as you would trailers for "Critics Agree: The #1 Comedy this Summer!" Futonrevoltion (talk) 17:14, November 14, 2011 (UTC)
- I've always seen 'Dark Fantasy' as Fritzywiggins suggested, as a "gritty, down-to-earth, realistic fantasy which often bends or outright breaks stereotypical High Fantasy elements and characters."
- However, much of DA2's humor, of which I think should be sparring in a 'Dark Fantasy', is sexual or sexual innuendo in nature. It doesn't matter if the source is mostly Hawke, Isabella, or whoever.
- The mere fact that everyone(many characters make sexual innuendo at least once), can break out a comedic routine in the between of fighting off undead corpses, demons, blood magi, or even bandit ambu- waves, breaks away from what is preached to be a 'Dark Fantasy' in the first place.
- DA:O was also boarding on the same effect, but DA2 outright breaches it.
- The Dragon Age series went from a "Mild Dark Fantasy" with DA:O, to a "Pseudo-Political High Fantasy, with extra Humor and Sexual Innuendo!" in DA2. DeltaEcho (talk) 04:44, November 15, 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think sex interferes with dark stuff - the Witcher books are full of sex, including it being used for comedic effect, but the series (the games much less) is dark fantasy in a way DA would never achieve no matter how hard it tried. Now, comedic routine on the other hand could be one of culprits. It's not that dark fantasy must be humourless, far from that, it's just that Bioware's trademark humour is cheerful, light-hearted, optimistic, kinda juvenile and inoffensive. And as you go through that, you can't help but think "Hey, the world that's having so much fun can't be really crap, no way sir." Dorquemada (talk) 08:25, November 15, 2011 (UTC)
I'm not really sure that Dragon Age has ever been a stellar example of dark fantasy. It qualifies, probably. It's got lots of forces with ambiguous malice and unknown power, but let's review the arc of the Warden. In spite of having a great number of wardens crushed, the capital nearly sacked, and a bloody civil war engulfing Ferelden, the Warden manages to successfully slay the Archdemon. Also, he must at some point find a holy grail analogue to cure someone at the door of death.
That the game gives you this kind of world shaping agency is something I personally enjoy, but it weakens its claim to "dark fantasy".
If anything, the relative frailty and inability of Hawke to affect his fate is more typical of dark fantasy or horror.WorstClassic (talk) 07:24, November 15, 2011 (UTC)