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:Perhaps, BioWare did not do a good enough job of pointing out this central theme to the casual observer, but it is definitely there, and truth be told, it is far more chilling to see the dark hearts of men than it is the evil of already evil-at-heart darkspawn. In a way, the image of Kirkwall as a light/friendly place that houses this insidious evil IS the darkness hidden in plain sight. And therefore, it is just as dark, if not darker in a way, than DAO ever was.
 
:Perhaps, BioWare did not do a good enough job of pointing out this central theme to the casual observer, but it is definitely there, and truth be told, it is far more chilling to see the dark hearts of men than it is the evil of already evil-at-heart darkspawn. In a way, the image of Kirkwall as a light/friendly place that houses this insidious evil IS the darkness hidden in plain sight. And therefore, it is just as dark, if not darker in a way, than DAO ever was.
 
<span>[[User:JaceCar|JaceCar]] ([[User talk:JaceCar|talk]]) 16:14, November 13, 2011 (UTC)</span>
 
<span>[[User:JaceCar|JaceCar]] ([[User talk:JaceCar|talk]]) 16:14, November 13, 2011 (UTC)</span>
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It never was a dark fantasy from the start. Just normal high with heavy goth makeup. [[User:Dorquemada|Dorquemada]] ([[User talk:Dorquemada|talk]]) 16:20, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Revision as of 16:20, 13 November 2011

Forums: Index > Game DiscussionIs Dragon Age still Dark Fantasy?
Note: This topic has been unedited for 4519 days. It is considered archived - the discussion is over. Do not continue it unless it really needs a response.

One of my favorite aspects of DA:O was that it was very dark and gritty. I'm not just talking about blood and gore. I'm talking about how the world of Dragon Age seems like a really grim place, highly violent and politically-charged, with the corruptive influence of the Blight always hanging over our heads. For all the witty banter with your companions, the in-game universe took itself seriously.

DA:II has plenty of gore, but it doesn't feel very dark to me. First of all, the Blight is gone so there is not really a doom-and-gloom theme to begin with. Secondly, the NPC's seem to me more like bumbling idiots than men and women of grand ambition. There's not really a character akin to Howe, Loghain, Bhelen, or even Zathrian. The only one with a consistent policy is the Arishok. Meredith doesn't play a significant role until Act III, and even then it's hard to say whether she or the magic sword is more responsible for her actions. Orsino turning into a blood mage was ridiculous. Through all this Hawke can act as a bystander (diplomatic), troll (sarcastic), or grumpy teen (angry), none of which lend much gravitas to the game.

I liked plenty about DA:II, but it just feels like a different game than DA:O. Some characters, like Fenris, seem more fit for Final Fantasy than Dragon Age. The Legacy DLC seemed like a return to form, but Mark of the Assassin and its nonsensical plot (a chevalier riding a wyvern? That's so not appropriate for the DA universe), not to say Felicia Day pandering (don't really care for her character or voice-acting) felt like the franchise is moving further than closer to DA:O.

What does everyone think? Whocares65 (talk) 07:05, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

I have been thinking about this for a while, and i agree. In fact, i'm playing Origins now, and one of the things I have seen, is the darker places you go. Look at Kirkwall, its all white and brown, it doesn't have a mixture of colors that make a gloomy environment. And, its always sunny, there's no change in weather. And, agreeing with the above poster, there's just not any real characters that have a big goal, more like "Something made me mad, now i'm pissed, so i'm going to bother Hawke and make him help me, then i'm going to do it again in the next couple quests." This is just what I see, anyway. --Blood Prince (talk) 14:42, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Compared to DA:O, not really. I think it barely qualifies. I think the game would have a lot stronger base as dark fantasy if the color scheme wasn't all bright and cheery and the developers had done a better job of giving the impression that mages were constantly oppressed while the rest of the world either ignored or allowed it. It's not that the effort wasn't there, it's just that there wasn't enough of it. MotA did not help things. I am still not over the fact that they not only included a wyvern, but that they actually had someone riding it. I already have all the achievements, so I'm content to let MotA gather dust from now on. But I digress. Anyway, in summary, as far as dark fantasy goes: D for effort. --Isolationistmagi (talk) 15:12, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Completely agree that DA2 went from dark into a blank and bland territory. It seriously lacks in the department of great villains, there are no plot twists that would turn Hawke's life upside down, no Damocles' sword above his head... Templars are abusive and opressive only where he cannot see them (which is a pity, since it would require only a couple more cutscenes to build up an image of Kirkwall as a city held in an iron grip of tyranny). No, definitely nowhere next to a dark fantasy, which wouldn't be a bad thing in itself, if only the darkness was actually replaced by _something_, instead of just removed. --Ygrain (talk) 16:38, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

To be fair (and this from one who criticized DA2 at every chance) they did try. While the whole story put together is not actually grim like DAO's...it has more of...horror-esque feel. The strange idol...the sewers which have notes about blood of slaves. Necromancers...haunted mines etc. There are some grim and thought provoking (as in human nature 'dark') parts too. The Saarebas Ketojen's story. The Count and his son's story. The magister's son who kills Elven children.
But yeah the level has fallen when compared to DAO. I mean that game had the best of everything. The small quest about the haunted orphanage in the Alienage, was as blood chilling as the most horrifying parts of DA II.Diain (talk) 16:42, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

But that's about the worst part of it: the wasted potential. There are basically all the components that make a great story and an immersive setting - and they are not used to the full. It could have been such a wonderful tale... a different kind of dark and grim than in Origins, but equally awesome. --Ygrain (talk) 16:57, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
Interesting point Diain, and I agree Ygrain. While I concur that the devs did try to make it dark, I think it was that they tried too hard, so many elements just seemed cheesy or clichéd, almost like a B movie (All That Remains springs to mind). The only part that I found to be dark (as in gritty and grim), was the Enigma of Kirkwall plot (which didn't have a satisfying conclusion IMHO), though I also agree that was a certain darkness that surrounded the representation of human nature, more of a light tragedy than a dark fantasy tale. It's not just the plot to blame, but things like the art style, IMO, which seemed to cartoonish to me and took the dark, grim atmosphere away somewhat. It was the little things which often made DA:O: the dim lighting, the pestilence and misery which blighted the city elves, the massacre of children in an orphanage and the suggestion of violations, and always hanging over it all, was the feeling that there was something dark and evil which loomed on the horizon, always just of sight. It's what you don't see that's scary. Chantry symbol King Cousland | Talk   16:59, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
Right and right again. The implementation of the serial killer getting someone from the family is sooo old, and the way it was done - aargh, this has been discussed to the death. I think it is a pity that the Enigma of Kirkwall didn't play a more crucial part in the story, it could have added flavour comparable to the darkspawn threat. - Speaking of which, the Deep Roads in DA:O were really creepy, in DA2, they looked quite good in cutscenes but in the gameplay, not at all. The Denerim Alienage was a true ghetto full of despair; the Kirkwall Alienage was just a ridiculously small area with a tree... and so on. It's totally past me how the devs could not have seen this, or missed the impact of the changes they made.
I agree with what everyone has said. Perhaps if Dragon Age II would have spent another year in development, it would have been a great game on par with Origins, instead of just a good game that's not even close to Origins. Maybe they set the bar too high with Origins, if the feel of the series they are going for is more in line with DA2 and it's expansions. DeltaEcho (talk) 22:17, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
If they did not redo almost all the game play elements from origins they would of had much more time for the story, the changes there were hardly even for the better either. I really would like to know what was going through the heads of the developers when they were laying out the roadmap for the game.174.45.9.40 (talk) 00:59, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
I think it is too easy to nitpick at the resulting feel of DA2 and overlook what they did accomplish. I read the above comments and I have to agree with most of them; however, I can't help feeling that the overall impression of DA2 is not negative. Perhaps it is not as dark in tone and theme as DAO, but if they had continued the theme directly, we would have been bored by it. We needed a change of venue, and they gave it to us in the city-state of Kirkwall.
I played DAO twice, maybe three times before I got bored with the dialogue and storyline. I've played DA2 at least a dozen times through, and I keep finding new twists, new quests, new character interactions. Everything is different depending upon which class you play, which companions you choose, and which choices you make. There is no overshadowing dark enemy, unless you see it from Anders' perspective -- that the Chantry and its Templars are the real source of evil. The Qunari are "bad guys", but not really... They are actually quite honorable, and predictable. They only become enemies because the Chantry force them into it. The mages have a potential for evil, but again are not that way by nature. They only become that way because they are forced into it by the Chantry and its oppression.
Perhaps, BioWare did not do a good enough job of pointing out this central theme to the casual observer, but it is definitely there, and truth be told, it is far more chilling to see the dark hearts of men than it is the evil of already evil-at-heart darkspawn. In a way, the image of Kirkwall as a light/friendly place that houses this insidious evil IS the darkness hidden in plain sight. And therefore, it is just as dark, if not darker in a way, than DAO ever was.

JaceCar (talk) 16:14, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

It never was a dark fantasy from the start. Just normal high with heavy goth makeup. Dorquemada (talk) 16:20, November 13, 2011 (UTC)