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I'm sure this has been said and I only skimmed through this thread, but I am really sick of this spirit possessing people to keep them alive business. The ashes theory would be a bit more bearable but it is nothing more than a case of them keeping their canon story alive and disregarding any player choice that goes against it.[[Special:Contributions/|]] ([[User talk:|talk]]) 05:05, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
I'm sure this has been said and I only skimmed through this thread, but I am really sick of this spirit possessing people to keep them alive business. The ashes theory would be a bit more bearable but it is nothing more than a case of them keeping their canon story alive and disregarding any player choice that goes against it.[[Special:Contributions/|]] ([[User talk:|talk]]) 05:05, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
Leliana is a bard, a master of deception. Could she not simply fake her death or play dead when the Warden "killed" her? [[User:Freakium|Freakium]] ([[User talk:Freakium|talk]]) 05:22, August 26, 2011 (UTC)

Revision as of 05:22, 26 August 2011

Forums: Index > Lore DiscussionI think I know why Leliana is still alive
Note: This topic has been unedited for 3354 days. It is considered archived - the discussion is over. Do not continue it unless it really needs a response.

Okay, so everyone who ended up killing Leliana in DA:O is pissed that Bioware brought her back regardless for DA2, seeing as how death is a pretty difficult thing to get better from. The thing is, this isn't the first time a character (or atleast their bodies in one case) has been resurrected from death, the three I'm speaking of would be Wynne (Spirit of Faith), Kristoff (spirit of Justice) and Anders (Again, SoJ if you decide to allow the templars to try to execute him, or if he is stabbed by darkspawn when left at Vigil's Keep.)

So you can guess what my theory is by now, that a fade spirit has either brought back/taken over the body and assumed the identity of Leliana, but that seems a bit convenient that a random fade spirit would just happen across her (possibly headless) corpse, eh? Not exactly. Who do we know that is A. A spirit and B. Has a connection to Leliana?

Let me remind you that the fist time we see Leliana in DA2 is a few years after the last time she is seen DA1, so this would allow for enough time for this to happen. This amount of time would allow for Wynne to pass, after all, she acknowledges that she doesn't have much time left, allowing the spirit of Faith to leave her body. Now, what corpse do we know of that represents the absolute embodiment of faith? Thats right, I believe that the corpse of Leliana is being inhabited by the Spirit of Faith, who is either prenteding to be her or has rescued her for her devout faith to the Maker. Toastfighter (talk) 03:59, August 6, 2011 (UTC)

Or perhaps she happened upon some bits of dust of Andraste's ashes that were not corrupted. A small amount that the dragons blood did not reach that happened to be on the floor. It just seems that the same fade spirit possesing her would be (A) too much of an unlikely coincidence, and (B) Leliana looking a little too much like Kristoff in terms of being undead. Balitant (talk) 04:56, August 6, 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, meant to add that Leliana may not be possessed, but rather fused with the spirit temporarily like Wynne with faith or anders with Justice (Or Vengance) and it wouldn't be a coincidence if Leliana and Wynne were both recruited, the spirit in Wynne may have been impressed by Lelianas devout faith to what she believes, like Justice was impressed with Anders plight against the templars, and sought to join with her to save her, like it saved Wynne, who is no doubt dead by the end of DA2. And if one or both of them were never recruited, it would be as much of a coincidence as Justice fusing with Anders if one or both of them were never recruited.

Toastfighter (talk) 05:13, August 6, 2011 (UTC)

Your forgeting one important thing. Leliana is not a mage. Unless blood mages go to her dead body and force the same spirit of faith that saved wynne after watching her most of her life into it, I cant see this happening. Crimpycracker (talk) 05:34, August 6, 2011 (UTC)

Another thing to point out, don't remember exactly the time it takes place but the novel coming out in December has Wynne in it does it not? If that is the case wouldn't the spirit of faith still be with her? Skursky (talk) 06:00, August 6, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, in the books canon Wynne is still alive and kicking, I'm sure there will be an instance or two of her using the spirit, I can see one of those of her saving Rhys, and it being the final time she could have used the spirit. Tommyspa (talk) 06:06, August 6, 2011 (UTC)

Was there ever proof that the blood actually tainted the ashes? Part 2 note Oghren mentioning the massive volume of lyrium in the mountain as an explanation for the spirits and possibly the power of the ashes to even work, and it's connection being with the mage that used the ashes to actually cure Eamon. Tommyspa (talk) 06:06, August 6, 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure they already said Leliana's "death" is non-canon. BW is developing a knack for writing off certain people's choices. And since Leliana isn't a mage, she would have to be a possessed corpse, seeing that only mages can get spirits to merge with them.--LordRevan25 (talk) 06:09, August 6, 2011 (UTC)

This theory makes no sense and I don't like it but... As far as the lore goes, are you all sure that possession is mage only? Demons SEEM to like mage-only but Corypheus and the Archdemon use the taint, maybe it is a condition maybe it is just a "preference"? About the darkspawn and archdemon I guess it is totally needed but when I think about demons, I guess they can possess anyone but they are like Flemeth, Flemeth would not use the body of a normal person, it would make her weaker so the thing with demons is just the same, why would they enter the body of a normal person? But I don't think it is impossible. If Justice could affect even the tranquil state, maybe if a spirit entered the body of a normal person it could connect this person to the fade? DA:O sent even dwarves in the fade, so I would say that we should not talk about absolutes here like: only mages can be possessed. Raoniluna (talk) 07:42, August 6, 2011 (UTC)

Another problem with The spirit of faith possessing leliana, In my playthrough I did Orgin-Ostagar-Lothering-Redcliff-Urn, the last thing I did was circle of magi. Wynne never met leliana. I think that Bioware brought leliana back was so they could say " look people who played orgin, we have leliana AND Alistar, and alistar makes a comment about swooping, you've got to buy this game now you know? Cameo'ssssss" Shepard-commander (talk) 13:02, August 6, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not going into theory, but this can be explained. At the time Origins was written certain companions were very key to the story, Morrigan and Alistair, while others had varying levels of importance behind those two. But despite any importance, they were all optional. Leliana was likely written to be the first amongst that group, but still an option, thus she could be disposed of, though that was probably not an option many would take in the writers minds. Well, post DAO, Leliana's importance grew. It was likely a later decision by the writing team, added into the story as a means to connect the group from Origins to DA2, and to link the Blights and events in Origins to the Mage/Templar chantry issues, because these things are connected. It wasn't originally planned I suspect, but Leliana is now almost as important a character as Morrigan, thus, they need her alive. No matter what. It's a canon decision in a game filled with non-canon choices. In retrospect, I suppose they would have preferred to make her non-killable, but like I said, it was a later decision. So we may get some ridiculous explanation as to why if she was killed, but the preferred means would simply be, don't kill her. At least in the minds of the writers. I agree there actually, but for me it's why on Earth would you kill a hot redhead into threesomes that you know is a freak beneath what is mostly a facade she displays. But it seems many, many people can't see through that with her character and just kill her because she's "preachy". But I get the point about choice. And don't care for it either. The "explanation" we will get if she was slain will probably be terrible, but they intend for you not to kill her now clearly. The Grey Unknown (talk) 13:20, August 6, 2011 (UTC)

I could not agree more. Perhaps BioWare did have a character in mind to replace Leli at the end DA2 but just didn't have the time to implement her/him (I suspect this might be the case with a lot of import issues). But far more likly is that they just wanted her to become a more important character in the DA universe. This could be evidenced be the fact that she's the only party member to have their own DLC. Or she is simply Chuck Norris in disguise. In which case a simple matter of decapitation would be like a broken nail. Andy the Black (talk) 14:48, August 6, 2011 (UTC)
Wait, wait, wait. Leli is Chuck Norris? One of my Wardens just got very uncomfortable. --CommanderCousland (talk) 23:14, August 6, 2011 (UTC)

I just hand-waved it away as my Warden believing he had killed her, but instead just seriously wounded her and left her to die. Only she didn't. How? Good question, one that will probably never be answered, but ultimately unimportant. (talk) 04:56, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

I'm inclined to believe the writers just wanted to keep using a popular DAO character that presumably survived in the vast majority of players games. That and they love to spur the creative juices of the fan base to come up with new and interesting explanations for these things;) Rhautanen (talk) 12:58, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

Bioware has said with some frequency that if they want to use a character again, they will. I don't actually see why people carry on so about Leliana when Oghren had already showed up again in Awakening even though, reportedly, he too could be killed. If they ever explain why Leliana is still alive (in those games where she died), I hope it's explained in a brief cutscene where a few specks of dust blow out of the Warden's pouch of undefiled-Andraste-dust as he's walking away. Camera follows the specks of dust as they land on Leliana... camera zooms in on her fingers, and after a moment they give a little twitch... flash forward to present. Bada bing bada boom, her resurrection is handwaved. I tend to figure that most people didn't kill Leliana, anyway.--DarkAger (talk) 01:01, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

It's all all very well to say that some how some of the undefiled ashes found their way to her body and did their mojo, or that she was brought back by a spirit. But what about the people, no mater how few, who just left her to die in Lothering. I've never not recruited her so I don't know if it's said anywhere that she escaped the horde. Andy the Black (talk) 04:05, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

That one's even easier to handwave, though, isn't it? If you never recruited her she definitely never died onscreen. All they have to do in that case is say she fled with the other sisters and brothers when the templars evacuated the Chantry. Fleeing Lothering was always the plan: no one in the Chantry ever said they intended to stay and die, only that they were going to stay "as long as possible" before leaving.--DarkAger (talk) 04:16, August 8, 2011 (UTC)
Yeah I guess. To be honest, befor Hawke was announced to be a survivor of the attack on Lothering I always just assumed that pretty much everyone died. Never even crossed my mind that some people might do the really obvious thing and run befor the Darkspawn got there. Note to all wiki users: If a horde of evil and corrupted beasties are about to descend on your village, don't wait for me to tell you run, just do it. lol Andy the Black (talk) 04:33, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

Apparently we are supposed to wonder why she isn't dead if killed, so maybe we'll get more than a handwave. But given all the highly likely handwaves at the Urn I doubt it. ( (talk) 04:44, August 8, 2011 (UTC))

There is a possible explanation in her codex entry that she was rumored to have traveled with the Warden. As the story she tells in her song isn't exactly the same as the story she tells the Warden, the events of DAO in regards to DA2 do not necessarily have to be the same. Which story is true? Her song can have many endings and the Revered Mother Dorothea who helped her escape has become Divine Justinia V in DA2. Is this just a coincidence? Or is this something else?

If you killed her or sent her away after leaving Lothering, then in DA2 she was only rumored to have been along with the Warden. In short, she wasn't there at all if you killed her or if one prefers, the ashes of Andraste spared her from death. Rumors aren't necessarily true, and Lilly tells fanciful tales and has many secrets to hide. Was she a Seeker before meeting the Warden, and was really spying on the Warden, or was she not there at all but only telling a tall tale like Varric tells? What You think you know isn't necessarily what you know, especially in the world of Dragon Age.--Diosprometheus (talk) 00:00, August 20, 2011 (UTC)

Leliana could be possessed by a spirit, or at least kept alive by one. If you look at the description for Spirit Warrior, it says that they are not mages, but commune with fade spirits and receive power. But more likely she was somehow saved by the ashes. S BenDev (talk) 04:51, August 20, 2011 (UTC)

For those who are wondering how Bioware will hand-wave Leliana's death, they already have. In DA:II you have the option of saying "I heard you were dead?" to Leliana, at which she'll reply that "The Maker decided it was not my time". There's a video on YouTube about this but I don't have the link on hand.

During my playthrough I defiled the ashes to gain the Reaver specialization, fought Leliana and decapitated her, but I quickly reloaded a previous save so I suppose her death was not canon for me. I like the Andraste's ashes explanation the better than the spiritual possession, but I hate that either way she's back to working for the Chantry after I did her personal quest and hardened her in DA:O. Whocares65 (talk) 02:31, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, everyone is going on about how Leliana could never be possesed or fused with a spirit because shes not a mage, but in DA2, in the quest where you first meet cullen, and templars are mysteriously dissapearing, the whole thing was templars were being made to be possessed by deamons and turned into abominations. i understand that bloodmages had a part in that, but we agree that it is POSSIBLE for a non-mage to become an abomination, no? -CarloGrimaldi (talk) 03:04, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

Definitely. But I doubt she is. It was just hand waving on the writers part, they admit it. Xelestial (talk) 21:59, August 25, 2011 (UTC)
Templars are not "non-mages." Go through your companion discussions with Alistair and pay attention. Futonrevoltion (talk) 01:08, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
They aren't technically a mage, they're just regular people who drink a lot of lyrium right....But anyone with a connection with the fade could presumably become possessed. Dunno about dwarves though. Xelestial (talk) 01:13, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
Again. Go through the conversation path with Alistair. Or have a good memory. Or think about what Templars are capable of, and explain how "A mage is able to interact with the forces of magic" does not apply. Or how one would track someone, by use of their blood. Futonrevoltion (talk) 01:23, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
It's been a year or so since I've talked with Alistair but I don't recall him ever saying anything special about the templars besides drinking lyrium to fight mages and getting lyrium addicted and addled. Either way, I don't see what it has to do with whether or not non-mages can be possessed. We also saw the Harimann's possessed I just remembered. Xelestial (talk) 01:28, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
Gaider answered the part about tracking mages. The phylacteries are enchanted, the blood in them "glows" more brightly as the person holding it gets nearer. As for templars being magic users, I'm going to have to disagree with you Futon. Someone who "interact[s] with the forces of magic" does so by drawing power from the Fade, like the mages, or from the Taint, in the manner of darkspawn emissaries. It's unclear how templars actually gain their abilities, but I consider them to be mundane since they do not require mana, lyrium, the drawing of power from the Fade etc. Lyrium is not required to use templar talents, and Alistair casts doubt on whether it even enhances them (though his opinion is rather biased). Elementalist.png KC. | talk 01:37, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
I'm going to have to assume you meant you disagreed with Futonrevoltion, because for the record, I was only saying that lyrium supposedly helps templars fight mages. I assumed it gave them some magical resistance is all. There are still some mysteries about them though, like how the Rite of Tranquility is performed exactly, but any average Joe can become a templar, so I don't see how they would be magical... Xelestial (talk) 01:42, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, sorry for not clarifying but there was an edit conflict so your comment about Harimann is where mine was intended to be :P Elementalist.png KC. | talk 01:48, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
I always assumed it had somthing to do with the fact that everyone, except Dwarfs, are connected to the fade. Only mages are connected strongly enough to use magic, but Templars through training can stengthen their connection to the fade enough to gain a degree of magical residence. The Lyrium is just to keep them in line. Andy the Black (talk) 01:56, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
"So Templars use magic, themselves?"
"You could call it that, sure. The Chantry doesn't look on it the same way, however, since our talents only work on mages. Against a regular person, I'm just a guy in a metal suit."
Mages don't have to continually ingest lyrium to use their spells, either. They are, however, able to manipulate natural forces, rather than just another caster's mana. The Chantry doesn't pick up any random body off the street to take the vows. Futonrevoltion (talk) 01:55, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
According to Anders, they do. I know of no specific requirements to become a templar either. Not saying that people from magical backgrounds wouldn't be a better candidate, but as far as I know, there's no such requirements. Xelestial (talk) 02:02, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
Not everyone in Alistair's dorm became a full-fledged Templar, though they all went through the same training. You'll have to point me to whatever conversation you're remembering with Anders, who's not exactly the most reliable & unbiased witness. Futonrevoltion (talk) 02:10, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
Nor is Alistair IMHO. Elementalist.png KC. | talk 02:14, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
I believe the conversation happens when you are on the rivalry path with Anders and he reads you some of his arguments from his manifesto, and you can disagree with him on some points. He complains that templars have no divine right to rule over mages, as any random person off the street is able to become a templar. Neither is unbiased honestly. But, we gather info where we can I suppose. Xelestial (talk) 02:19, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
Ugh. There's no way I'm going through all that to know exactly what he says there. I hoped you were citing something in Awakening, which I could probably locate. Five minutes in Origins to transcribe a conversation I can't misplace (immediately post-Ostagar) is one thing... but twenty hours romancing "Anders" is quite another. Especially since I'm still pretending that the real Anders opened himself up to identity theft, by having his phylactery destroyed, and DA2's is a crazy stalker with a bad dye job. Futonrevoltion (talk) 02:32, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
For the record, I don't think you have to romance him to get that dialogue, just be a rival. But I understand and wouldn't do that either. I'm sure if you really wanted I could find a video of it if it was that important. Interesting idea about that identity theft though. Xelestial (talk)

The only excuse I could think of is that when you "kill" Leliana in the Ashes chamber, she was on the point of death when the Ashes healed her. That's the only plausible explanation that comes to mind. Apart from, you know, the whole possession thing. Elementalist.png KC. | talk 01:12, August 26, 2011 (UTC)

I think the whole ashes thing is best route and most plausible. But, I'd like to think they had any idea of what they were doing with Leliana from the beginning since she does come equipped with Seeker's Circle, was a spy, and connected to the current Divine before DA2 happened. But, she's killable. I think they coulda used Silas Corthwaite if Leliana was dead on import. And not coming back from the dead with no explanation.(What is this?? X-MEN?? I know a Jean Grey when I see one!) I've always wondered about Silas, if he was gonna pop up again since they killed Tug off so quick during Leliana's Song High Kicks (talk) 01:40, August 26, 2011 (UTC)

Using Silas would have been pretty awesome. And, by including references to IRL fanfiction, it's not like the writers could claim that he's too obscure. Plus, there's great potential in writing the character, any which way, and the voice actor works for peanuts. Leliana's Song shows that the storytelling technique of forced narrative, by a highly-unreliable narrator, in DA2 can be used somewhat effectively. Futonrevoltion (talk) 02:39, August 26, 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure this has been said and I only skimmed through this thread, but I am really sick of this spirit possessing people to keep them alive business. The ashes theory would be a bit more bearable but it is nothing more than a case of them keeping their canon story alive and disregarding any player choice that goes against it. (talk) 05:05, August 26, 2011 (UTC)

Leliana is a bard, a master of deception. Could she not simply fake her death or play dead when the Warden "killed" her? Freakium (talk) 05:22, August 26, 2011 (UTC)

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