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As I was playing DAO the other night and as I was entering the Circle with a Mage Warden I was playing. I found myself thinking would Elminster from D&D be apart of the Circle or be as Flemeth and live outside of the Circle and the Chantry's control. For myself I think he would have learned in the Circle when he was young, but when he got older and passed his Harrowing he would have ran away either to the Korcari Wilds, The Arbor Wilds, Hunterhorn Mountains, Arlathan Forest or The Donarks. These places are far out of the way and one could easily hide from the Templars should they come after him. So, tell me what are your thoughts on this. Anya (talk)22:58, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

In D&D a mage had no official limit to their power, there were several examples from FR of mages reaching what they call "godhood". Elminster were near that point and could possibly have transcended it if he had had the desire to. It was his love to Mystra that prevented it, and it was his love for mystra that formed him. In a world of different rules different men are born. Elminster wouldn't have existed in Thedas or would if he did be so different that we wouldn't have recognized him.

E himself is just a poor made copy of Merlin, who again was a powerful, wise, but also strictly autonomous figure. Any mage like that is incompatible with the world of thedas. there are too many mages and too much control. In Arthur and Merlin's universe, there only existed a handful of wizards and witches in all of England. They were so rare that most men could go on their hole live, not just not meting one, but not even hearing about one. They were so rare that only a select few knew about their existence, and fewer yet new their secret. -rphb- (talk) 13:46, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

I hate to be doing this BUT I have to disagree with you about Merlin being autonomous. He not only helped Arthur become king but he would have been there to save the kingdom if not for Morgan tricking him and holding him inside the earth where he still resides today. Only he knows for sure if he is a live or not. The only reason that we as people do not see or feel the magic that once ran free on this earth because we have closed our minds and hearts to said magic. Sam_Death (talk)01:57, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Elminster isn't based off of Merlin, he's based off of Gandalf. As said by Ed Greenwood...also, he would not fit into the world of Thedas at all because there is no magical goddess around to solve all of the assholes problems with a few bolts of silver fire and a surprise visit from Alassdra Silverhand...on the note of Merlin...he was useless, he did nothing and he barely helped. He was in the 'The Mists of Avalon' the dude was a dead-beat, Viviane and Morgaine were the people who made shit happen. And before I get bitched at, no..I don't consider Mallory's retelling of the legends to be cannon seeing as how his characterization of Morgan Le Fay and the whole of Avalon is highly predjudiced and one sided. --TheVictorianMuffin (talk) 04:07, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

I think everyone missed the nature of this thread. The idea was that if Elminster was born in Thedas, would he be a member of the Circle or not. Now keep in mind his personality when you make your comments. Anya (talk)04:39, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Then in that case...still no...Elminster is a sneaky devil and is far more likely to see the world the way Flemeth does, in her 'The world has hurt me' sort of way. Elminster often (If not secretly) tries to control everything from the background and keep all suspicion on everyone else. It's hard to use his personality on this because his personality is so defined by the nature of the world he's actually in. Thedas has no version of the Zhentarim or the Eldreeth Veluthra (Maybe the Dalish but that's pushing it). His enemies and his allies aren't there and they help craft who he is. So it depends on your vision of him I guess. I don't think he would be in the circle, it's to controlling, especially being ruled by the Chantry. No...I don't think Elminster would be in the Circle..and if he was, I think he would break out in a fantastical explosion. --TheVictorianMuffin (talk) 06:12, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

1)I dismissed that Elminster in thedas for that exact reason, a man is made by the world he lives in, and Thedas is just too different from FR.
2)Elminster is based on Merlin indirectly, as Gandalf is based on Merlin, it’s the same as every “superhero” is based on “Superman”.
3)No E, the part of him that would remain when you take away his friends, home and enemies, would not be part of a Circle. He hates being controlled. He would properly be a cross between Jowan and Anders finding a to destroy his phylactery without and escaping without doing anything morally questionable.
4)He would then move to the Arlanthan forest and found his own little community hidden within the threes. Few people would know about it, but for these that do, it would be a place of tolerance. A place where mages could live in peace, get married and have children and where religion is something private where your beliefs are yours alone.
5)Elhaven would guard its location and secrets carefully and would have vary little contact with the outside world.-rphb- (talk) 12:01, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

If you trully think That the world makes someone and there is no way to cross worlds, then you have a big problem but thats not the issue. The issue is comparing elminster to merlin. Merlin was completely different style of wizard, he had a way different view point, and tolerances. Elminster truely would be a world changer. He would stop the chantry by uniting all the good magic users of the forest and showing the chantry what a force of good could do. My opinion merlin would try to take on the chantry alone and fail. That is the big difference of them and how they both would handle DA. Christopher Rostorfer (talk)16:40, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

NICE Sam_Death (talk)16:44, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

"Elminster is based on Merlin indirectly, as Gandalf is based on Merlin, it’s the same as every “superhero” is based on “Superman”. " The notion that every superhero is based on Superman is ridiculous. Just because Superman is recognized as the first superhero doesn't mean that every person that comes up with a new hero looks to Superman for inspiration. LVTDUDE (talk) 17:13, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry a little off subject but Superman is not the first superhero if anything you would have to go further back in time to say oh Robin Hood, or Aladin, or even Sinbad Sam_Death (talk)17:58, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

These where different kinds of heroes. throughout history there have been lots of heroes both real and fictional. What category Robin Hood falls under is the course of much debate, but he was not a superhero; that idea originated with Superman, and for reason I cannot comprehend, people (mainly American) keep coughing up with new and still more ludicrous versions and variants of a theme that wasn't even good in it's original contexts. But this is beside the topic, any more and I would start being really insulting to people that actually read these kind of things.
Elminster would not challenge the chantry directly, first of all he would fail. An army of Maleficars and maleficar supporters rising up against the one true church of the Maker? An Exalted March would never have been more justly called, and no enemy would have been more shiftily put down. Forgive me, but if it was intended as a joke it worked, it is hilarious I can hardly stop laughing at the idea.
A mage with a long white beard and a pointy hat, followed by a ragtag band of apostates and farmers with pitchforks; charging against an army of a thousand Chevalier's, 10'000 spell breaching templars, more footsoldiers from all the countries in Thedas then can even be counted, and one giant Monty Python foot that ends it all with a big "squish" (inset tongue made farting sound here)
But seriously, my idea of him founding a small community in the Arlanthan forest would properly be much more on the mark. That he wants to change the world for the better and all is properly still something he would try, but he wont raise an army against the Chantry. Even in FR he never worked as a general or warlord. Instead he tried to manipulate things from the shadows, and he properly would do that to. But there is a limit to what he could do. Even in FR his powers were limited, don't you think he would have destroyed the "Black Network" if he could?
That organisation is nowhere near the power of the Chantry when they are fully mobilized.-rphb- (talk) 19:33, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

IF Elminister would dignate himself with working besides Maleficar, something I doubt to begin with, he would also think fair to ally himself with demons. And for whatever your deity's sake, demons are way more powerful than your avarege templar. And by avarage I mean those that keep getting killed in Origins. This army of evil would also resort to using demonic possession on their enemies, and soon enought we would have a magical backlash from all the spells at work and all the killing. In short, if Elminister was to fight the Chantry, both sides would loose, Chantry would be devasted by Blood Magic and all sorts of demons, Coalition of Rebel Mages (just came up with this name) would become corrupt by the demons, and their reason to fight would die out as they become the very thing they where trying to prove they could resist. In the end, ashes and blood all over the world, demons runing wild, small cults of chanters being the last poitn of light in the world, holding to the original meaning of the works of Andraste. At least he Chantry would be purified of all hipocrisy, but the free mages would have been corrupted, becoming the villains themselves. Hey, how about that for a future game? The Bard From Hell (talk) 19:50, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

And interesting Idea, but it would have an happy ending, there is a limit to how many demons any mage can summon and there is an even more strict limit to how many he can control. Avernus is an example of this. Besides nature have a way of evening things out, there is a limit to how much damage man can make, no process have no counter. While the vail can be torn, it must be self mending. In awakening, it took no less then three Desire demons constant concentration to keep the tears in the wail open.
Simply put I do not believe in an apocalypse, nature has a way, always. And even with the help of demons he would fail against the might of an Exalted March. That is if he would be mad enough to summon them himself and charismatic enough to convince others to do the same, neither of which E have been in any contest.
What you describe is nothing more then what Uldred did or tried to, but he would never have succeed, even without the warded it would have ended for him. The warden just quickened the inevitable. -rphb- (talk) 20:05, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
Maybe if they did a Dragon Age RTS we would find out. But back on the subject, I believe that like I already stated, both sides would loose. Remember, the Protagonist of a game is a special person, even if it's never said, he is special because few can do what he does. Most of the Chantry's army would be of low level footsoldiers, Templars with templar talents would be scarce, and a full-line Templar is a thing only Knight Commanders are. I say this out of the logic that opportunities for "gaining levels" are rare for common people (soldiers and normal Templars that don't undertake any kind of special assignment are considered common), so soldiers capable of defeating a Pride Demon would be very, very rare indeed. Even a single Sloth Demon is a dangerous foe, look what he did with a powerful Warden and his powerful friends (or not that much friends, but let's admit it, the Templars where getting their asses kicked in Kinloch Hold). Blood Magic is a powerful weapon, we have explored in-game only a very small fraction of what can be done with it. Remember how powerful Tevinter was before it's corruption. I believe that a war between the Chantry and well formed coalition of mages would be very even, and the only way to know how it would end would be in a game, RPG or, in this, preferably a RTS. The Bard From Hell (talk) 20:17, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
I disagree, there aren't that many mages willing to go rouge. Remember for every rouge mage fighting in the army, there would be at least six circle mages fighting against them, busted with templars, who aren't as rare as you think chevalieres who are who with good reason are very respected in Orlais (but still a little too respected, like the Japanese samurai perhaps) and who knows what else.
How the PC gains level, can't be compared with the NPC, most of whom the PC and his/her party meets are challenging. just fifteen of Loghains second or third rank guard band whom we can fight in a back ally can easily be a big problem for our warden.
Or strongest weapon is of course our ability to make infinite reboots. I like to meet the person whom could complete the entire game without ever going back to the last save even once.
It would be a one sided slaughter and E would know this from the beginning, so he wouldn't even make the trouble of trying to form such an army. As I have said, he is not an idiot, and opposing the Chantry with raw force is the greatest of folly.
If you want to topple the Chantry, do so diplomatically. Challenge them in ways that can't be met with brute force less they would seem like the bad guy. You speak like a violent revolution would help or even succeed, but it never does, the only way to move society forward is through diplomacy, violence should only be used when all diplomatic tools have failed and only against a weaker or weakened foe. Doing what you suggest only strengthen the Chantry by uniting all the people behind a common course. -rphb- (talk) 20:52, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
The fact that many enemies pose a chalange is for gameplay purpose. There would be no fun if you simply killed a single enemy in a boss fight in a single hit, and the game engine is somewhat limited to allow us to face hundreds of foes (it's not Dinasty Warriors). My conclusions come mainly from RTS playing: every army has it's strengts. Like I said before, an army of Maleficars would have an absurd amound of power in their hands. And, as the Broken Circle quest has showed us, not so few mages are unwilling to go rogue, Uldred quite the numbers of followers. The Bard From Hell (talk) 20:57, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
Whether or not you want to go rogue depends on whether or not you feel like your course is just. Most if not all of the mages that followed Uldred properly regret what happened afterwards. They wanted freedom, they thought blood magic could be a tool to that, but they didn't want to summon demons or become abominations. They didn't want to kill innocents, just to be free, like everyone else. An army with demons among them that marches against the Chantry would not get the aid of even known an hunted malaficers. The desire for freedom is not the same as the desire for vengeance and it does not justify the killing of innocent just of the jailers.-rphb- (talk) 22:57, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
Agreed. Demon allies didn't work out well for either Uldred or Avernius. With memories of the Uldred disaster so fresh it's difficult to think that Ferelden mages would undertake such a course. They would have to expect deaths of innocents as a consequence. It would be a veritable Pandora's Box. WarPaint (talk) 23:36, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
That's the main reason I don't believe in ends justify the means, because such means can't be justified by anything. But that's just my opinion. But come on, if they ever make a DA RTS, who of you wouldn't like to play as Tevinter in their rise, using armies of demons and blood mages? Might start a forum on that latter. The Bard From Hell (talk) 23:49, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
With a few tweaks and changes, I think you could pull it off; maybe as a thing in the past with a semi-rational explanation of how demons were different then. Perhaps the old gods would have played a role in the difference. And somewhere in the depths of my unconscious there's a movie with an ugly demon that was someone's friend, a humorous but ugly demon, but I can't quite put my finger on it... Maybe it was another video game... But such a demon ally, filled with dark humor, commanding hoards of demon armies. Could be fun WarPaint (talk) 00:01, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
Darksiders has various funny demons. Vulgrim the dealer and Watcher the... Er... Watcher are both funny characters. Maybe that's where you took that image from? But anyway, The Rise of Tevinter, First Campaign. Andraste's Rise, Second Campaing, with an Eminister-like character (since putting E himself would be wierd and expensive) who helps the Maker's Bride in defeating the evil masters. What do you think? The Bard From Hell (talk) 00:19, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
I don't want to get this thread too far off subject; and I really am not even sure who Elminister is; but I do feel sure that demons and battles with demons are going to be a major thing, one way or another, in future DA stories. The devs have invested substantial effort to develop The Fade as a real place in the world of Ferelden. Flemeth has a major history with demons, and may even be a demon. And Flemeth plays a role in DA2. Seems like there would have to be some demon connection there. New and improved demons maybe? And battles with demons in the past as you suggest would also fit right in. -- WarPaint (talk) 00:41, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

In response to -rhpb-, who made a good point. There seems to be a bit of an upper limit to the power of magi in Dragon Age. There are limitations on magic, and it is more akin to another feature of the natural world. Mages are simply the only ones who can interact with it. Teleportation, permanent manifestation of objects, and any form of immortality not dealing with a Fade spirit are out of the question. Flight and levitation are almost unheard of, and the only magic-user to ever do anything resembling flight was the Architect, who seems to be able to use creation magic to float slightly. On the other hand, Mages can ascend to a stage beyond their mortal, physical form, as seen with the Baroness, who became a Pride Demon. As some demons appear to feed off the life essence of those they trap in their individual part of the Fade; the Sloth Demon, for example, it stands to reason that it's possible, however unlikely, that a mage could become a demon and glut himself on mortal lives until they became something akin to an Old God. Still, though they'd be immortal and wield power that could be considered godlike, they'd still be bound by the limitations of magic, and would be for all intents and purposes just a very powerful demon. MathiasAmon (talk) 02:38, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

If Elminster was in Thedas, he'd be the crazy old mage in the brecilian forest. DeltaEcho (talk) 04:36, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think he would be like the Hermit, it is more likely he would found a small settlement in the Arlanthan forest dedicated to the peaceful coexistence between mages and non-mages. Unlike the warmonger theory this one could actually work. There really could be a powerful mage living deep within the forest in a small village isolated like Haven.
To MathiasAmon we don’t exactly know if the Baroness became a pride demon, or got possessed by a pride demon, the way she was reported to have “changed” after her encounter with the Queen of the Blackmarsh seems to indicate the later. Besides she was consumed by pride even in her mortal days.
To WarPaint demons plays a role in DA2 certainly, but I think that the main plot would be the attack of the Qunari fleet on the Free Marches. I believe they want to claim it for the Qun and Hawke is all that stands in their way. Why else the new design and the duel with a Qunari in the trailer?
Personally I think that that would be a great main plot, an attract by a mortal race with intentions, feelings and desires are much more interesting then a mindless horde whose only wish is destruction.-rphb- (talk) 07:44, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

We -do- know that the Baroness became a Pride Demon. She's explicitly stated as doing so by Justice. "You misunderstand. The Baroness.. she is not a mortal as you are. Or as were the villagers she kept trapped. There was such a mortal once, but now that is a Demon of Pride. She assumed that role long ago to feed from the mortals she trapped." "But here, in your world, she will be quite something.. else."

Even if you take what he says as subjective, which is sort of difficult, The Baroness retains her mannerisms from life, behavior, memories, her being. Abominations are living beings possessed by demons, and it's stated that they control the mortals they possess from within the Fade. Not being alive, and not having a Pride Demon hovering around her, and controlling her own patch of The Fade, to boot, she's likely just what he says she is. And she didn't change after she killed the Queen of The Blackmarsh. She took advantage of a crisis, like all rulers who wish to do something they couldn't otherwise get away with. She demonstrated her magic, instilling awe, and destroyed a scourge of her subjects, instilling adoration. Then, she was free to kidnap and slaughter children at her leisure, with the peasants still thinking the best of her. MathiasAmon (talk) 18:39, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Hard to argue against that, so now we know where demons come from. If we can generalise from that rule, then all dead people becomes spirits of the fade. But that's explanation won't hold either, most demons have no idea of what's outside. Being the exception or the rule it still won't make that big a difference in the end, possessed by pride she has lost all humanity. Isn't it worse that a possession happens without the aid of a foreign consciousness to tempt you? this just makes the fall all the harder. -rphb- (talk) 22:04, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

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