So I just finished Asunder. Admittedly, I couldn't put the book down, and often had to stop from the sheer awesome that threatened to overwhelm me on multiple occasions, but I'll try not to let that taint my review. I'll try to be fair and accurate.
On the whole, I thought the book was extremely loyal to the established DA lore. I know that wasn't really a worry with Gaider being the writer, but recently I've been getting the sense that a lot of things have just been added to the DA namesake willy nilly with no thought towards how they fit in. So it's very refreshing to receive something that fits extremely well into the DA universe, and even adds to it in interesting ways. Elves were still oppressed, mages and Templars were still at odds, and abominations were still abominable. But more on that bit later. My Lore rating is 5/5. Well Done!
The story itself flowed very well, with all the characters possessing believable motivations for their actions, and each plot point being believable and open to interpretation. I think we'll be debating Pharamond's research and the Lord Seeker quite a bit on the forum. My only real complaint was that it felt like I've seen this all before. It may be just me, but it feels like this story could be a very close cousin of DA2's Act 3, especially with Adrian's handling of things at the end. 2/3 my way through the book, I started comparing Adrian to Anders, and Evangeline to Thrask, and the Lord Seeker to Meredith, and then I realized: I've seen this before! And the thought didn't leave me as I finished the book either. I'm not unduly upset by the way the story went, all I ask for is a bit more originality. My Narrative rating is 3/5. Awesome, but in a predictable way. More originality please.
The characters that filled the story were all very believable. I especially liked Evangeline, because she is a great example of a moderate Templar done correctly. Shale was just as trolling as ever, and even Leliana was good in her cameos, though I wished we had seen more of her. Even the "villains" were done well, with Pharamond having a reason for his actions, and Lambert having experienced the corruption of a Circle before. The one issue I had was Wynne. More than anything else, I was continually disappointed with her dramatic character shift from the woman we knew to a cold, single-mined crusader. The characters do a good job of acknowledging the shift, though it is never really explained that I could see. Since Wynne was one of my more favorite characters, I found myself quietly urging for a reconciliation between the old and new versions. There was, of a sort, at the ending when she saved Evangeline, but it wasn't very satisfying. In all, my character score is 4/5. Great, but I can't help feeling sad that the nagging is gone.
Finally, the part of the book I was most excited for, the new reveals. Let me list a few. Civil War in Orlais? Celene possibly dead? Fiona is/was the Grand Enchanter?! The Rite of Tranquility is Reversible?! The Divine is a MODERATE?! *ahem* This is exactly what I had hoped for. As a staunch Fereldan and mage supporter, I could barely contain my excitement throughout the reading. This is what good DA books, and indeed good videogame books in general, are supposed to do: prep us for the setting of the next game, and make us excited for the lore. And, speaking personally, it worked like a charm for me. My New Info rating is 5/5. Highest Marks!
Overall, the book was exactly what I had hoped it was: a well crafted narrative with believable characters that fit nicely in the overarching DA universe, expanding it as well as reinforcing what we already knew. I found new characters I can hope are in potential future games, and got to meet some old favorites along the way. Here's to another successful DA venture! My Overall DA: Asunder rating is 4.5/5! Now, on with the speculation and debates! Rathian Warrior (talk) 00:04, December 22, 2011 (UTC)
- Yay, I've finally found a fellow Wynner! But...the nagging is gone? Am I to take it then that was was being said on BioWare Social was true? :'( Nice review. The info about the Rite was predictable, IMHO, though the possibility of Celene's death intrigues me greatly, as does Fiona's new position (even though I haven't read the first two books, her character is intriguing from what I've heard). Thanks for the prompt information, and I hope you don't mind if I drop you a line on your talk page with a few questions ;)
King Cousland | Talk 00:17, December 22, 2011 (UTC)
Just two questions. People are talking, that Asunder feels like a prequel to DA3. Is that so? And if so, does it have a feel of a possibility to end the Chantry once and for all in DA3? -Algol- (talk) 00:27, December 22, 2011 (UTC)
Of course Mr. King, feel free to ask me anything =D
EDIT (Algol's post snuck up on me): DA:A does feel like a prequel, in the same way The Calling and the Stolen Throne felt like a prequel to DA:O. So if you've read either of those, you'll know what I mean. There's no doubt in my mind that the information we're given in Asunder will play a role in DA3, if that's what you mean. As for the Chantry in specific, *MASSIVE SPOILERS* the Epilogue leaves no illusions about the intent of Lambert and the Knight Commanders to leave the Chantry, as the ending of DA2 said they would. Whether or not that will change with his presumed death at the hands of Cole remains to be seen. Rathian Warrior (talk) 00:30, December 22, 2011 (UTC)
Could I sense from your tone that Dragon age 3 could be good? And may I ask how did Wynne change?
I think DA3 will have a very interesting setting, to say the least. As for Wynne, I suggest you take a look at my talk page. I already answered the question for Mr. King.Rathian Warrior (talk) 10:54, December 22, 2011 (UTC)
Glad to hear it was a good addition to the story. I don't care for Wynne personally but I'm curious about Shale's involvement. Is she still golem? Thanks to the glitch that keeps her from showing up after the Battle of Denerim in DAO, I'm not sure exactly what happened to her. I remember seeing somewhere (possibly the epilogue or here) that she went north with Wynne to Tevinter to search for a way to regain her true form. Why would the 2 of them even travel together after the Blight was over? Fiona also interests me. Isn't she Alistair's real mother? I wonder if they will meet at some point. --Vampire Damian (talk) 11:30, December 22, 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, Shale is still a golem. Wynne does mention that they have been trying to find a way to make her a dwarf again, but we don't get any real details about what they've been up to.--Liam Sionnach (talk) 05:49, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
Hmm... I won't be getting Asunder any time soon, since I'm not willing to pay the shipping price for the original and the translation will take at least half a year, but I'd like to have your assessment for The Calling and The Stolen Throne, for comparison. --Ygrain (talk) 16:23, December 22, 2011 (UTC)
Asunder has left me a bit confused, though I did really enjoy it. My impression from DA2 was that the Seekers and the Templars were two different Orders, and that while the Templars had left the Chantry to fight the mages, the Seekers (Leliana and Cassandra plus what looked like an army in DA2) remained loyal to the Divine. But Asunder totally throws that into question, since it's the Lord Seeker who is rallying the Knight Commanders to abandon Chantry oversight. Does anyone have any insight on this? Is this maybe what the plot of Dawn of the Seeker will be? Also, to anyone who was interested, Fiona's appearances in the book are brief, she has only a few lines, and there are no parts from her point of view.--Liam Sionnach (talk) 05:49, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
From what I've seen here and on other threads, it really seems like even Gaider has officially given up pretending that DA2 wasn't rushed and that it was an essential entry into the DAverse. I mean, the only thing that we thought DA2 actually accomplished was start the Mage-Templar war. As badly as that aspect of the game was executed, at least it was something. Now, it didn't even do that; Asunder did it instead, and apparently better too, from what I can tell. Seriously, any significance DA2 might've had on the universe is gone (unless Corypheus and Tallis end up essential characters later, that is, and even then DA2 wasn't necessary to bring those people into the mythos). Asunder seems like what DA2 should have been, which in turn makes DA2 entirely pointless.
Also, another character traumatized thanks to the actions of mages from Tevinter? Honestly, the "evil-tevinter-mage" thing got old in the first game. Can't we have at least ONE good thing come from Tevinter for a change? If you want moral ambiguity BW, you need to show some good aspects too. Sorry, it's just a pet peeve of mine.
Otherwise, it sounds like a good read. I'll try and get it sometime, perhaps next year. Matt-256 (talk) 13:26, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
- "Can't we have at least ONE good thing come from Tevinter for a change?" - the Imperial Highway:) I agree on the whole though, Tevinters are people like everyone else, stop portraying them worse than demons. If it wasn't for slavery and conflicts with elves, I would've supported the Imperium wholeheartedly. -Algol- (talk) 13:43, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
"Can't we have at least ONE good thing come from Tevinter for a change?" Feynriel. That is all. Besides, Tevinter has been no more demonized than Orlais. I don't feel Tevinter is exceedingly evil. They're the same realities most medieval states dealt with at the time: slavery, the strength of the nobles, and the status of serfs. The only difference is who is wielding the power. As far as Asunder is concerned, you could argue that the Tevinters were correct: Lambert was being naive. As we've seen via Merril, there can be benign blood mages.Rathian Warrior (talk) 20:57, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
- Considering that Feynriel may not end up in Tevinter, sadly he's "one half" of a good thing coming from Tevinter:( Though I highly doubt, that lives of Tevinter slaves and Orlesian peasants differ greatly. Yet, Orlais is "cultured and enlightened" and Tevinter embodies "all that's unholy" *sigh*. About blood mages, I'd also mention Avernus as a benign blood mage, though it is arguable. But there are so few exceptions, and virtually every other blood mage is bound to turn into abomination at some point. I don't think that it is a non-biased portrayal. Though something makes me think, that there are very few abomination cases in Tevinter, despite of common use of blood magic. -Algol- (talk) 22:10, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
- Well, to be fair, we don't hear much from Tevinter at all, so there may well be more than a few cases of abominations. Still, the fact that the magocracy has worked for so long indicates that there can't be too many cases of demonic possession, which in turn means that the tevinters manage just fine without the chantry's iron fists looming over their heads (my personal theory is that they've studied "forbidden" arts for so long that they understand how demons work better than anyone else, combined with the fact that they still have templars). Still, it'd be great to see those sorts of things explored more in-depth sometime in-universe. Really, I'd probably be satisfied if we just got to see the viewpoint of a tevinter native who isn't (just) a mustache-twirling, irredeemable a**hole (like Caladrius, Danarius and Hadriana) or somebody who had his/her life ruined by said a**holes (like Fenris) - just to get past chantry propaganda and dig deeper into the Tevinter culture and the inner workings of the imperium (the closest we got to a more sympathetic tevinter character was Varania, but she was in the game for like a minute and only there to solidify Fenris' hatred of mages and give him some more angst - one of the reasons I think Fenris' character arc was something of a letdown). Matt-256 (talk) 23:54, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
- Very good points, I agree competely. Let's hope the devs give us a chance to view Tevinter from a different perspective. Because what we have now, it's like with Tallis: "Qunari are not all that bad, you've seen only our soldiers" - "Sorry, I've seen only your soldiers, true, but I don't have an alternative to shape my opinion, so there it is". BTW, inspired by all the "Make your own Origin/Character" threads, I'm currently working on a Tevinter-native concept.-Algol- (talk) 02:39, December 24, 2011 (UTC)
- Well, to be fair, we don't hear much from Tevinter at all, so there may well be more than a few cases of abominations. Still, the fact that the magocracy has worked for so long indicates that there can't be too many cases of demonic possession, which in turn means that the tevinters manage just fine without the chantry's iron fists looming over their heads (my personal theory is that they've studied "forbidden" arts for so long that they understand how demons work better than anyone else, combined with the fact that they still have templars). Still, it'd be great to see those sorts of things explored more in-depth sometime in-universe. Really, I'd probably be satisfied if we just got to see the viewpoint of a tevinter native who isn't (just) a mustache-twirling, irredeemable a**hole (like Caladrius, Danarius and Hadriana) or somebody who had his/her life ruined by said a**holes (like Fenris) - just to get past chantry propaganda and dig deeper into the Tevinter culture and the inner workings of the imperium (the closest we got to a more sympathetic tevinter character was Varania, but she was in the game for like a minute and only there to solidify Fenris' hatred of mages and give him some more angst - one of the reasons I think Fenris' character arc was something of a letdown). Matt-256 (talk) 23:54, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
"Can't we have at least ONE good thing come from Tevinter for a change?" Uh, nothing good comes from blood magic. End of story. That is an important point that has been made, and proved, over and over again. Also, I do not think Feynriel is a good example. He has not yet completed his studies, and he talks about Tevinter's horrors and brutalities in his letter. I am personally very glad that nothing good has come from Tevinter. Hopefully nothing ever willCroc484 (talk) 21:43, December 23, 2011 (UTC)Croc484
- Wait, the Grey Warden Joining ritual and templars tracking mages via phylacteries are a form of blood ritual, and you say "nothing good comes from blood magic"? How about Hawke's sibling/LI being liberated in Act3 with blood magic as the only option to do it? How about Malcom Hawke containing Corypheus with blood magic? How about Merrill, cleansing the remains of the Eluvian of darkspawn taint with blood magic? Seriously, the common opinion of most inhabitants of Thedas "All blood magic is evil", seems more like Chantry propaganda bs, than a real fact. Now about "Tevinter's horrors and brutalities in his letter". What horrors and brutalities? O_o he wrote, that he saw one magister killing another in a duel. So the mere fact, that duel was magical makes it a "brutality"? How amusing. Isabela probably killed a lot of people in duels, yet nobody calls her brutal, quite the contrary, actually. *Sighs* Damn Chantry propaganda. -Algol- (talk) 22:10, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
- Do you have evidence of the joining being blood magic? I've been looking for valid evidence to settle a debate for some time. I agree with the Chantry Bs thing, but I will say this: If Hawke's sibling/LI was not held using blood magic during that quest, blood magic would not have been needed to free them. On the topic of good things from Tevinter: if I recall the lore correctly, the original Grey Wardens were Tevinter. ----Isolationistmagi 22:30, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
- 1. Ah yes, the original Wardens, good point. But since they were basically deserters from Imperial army, I suspect any non-Tevinter Chantry priestess would tell you: "They've decided to leave this cradle of sin called Tevinter Imperium to do good things! They were not Tevinters in their souls!".
- 2. Now about the Joining... If it involves LYRIUM, darkspawn BLOOD, a secluded place and grim, but solemn, vows... C'mon it's not difficult to add 2 and 2:)
- EDIT 3.Yes blood magic wouldn't be needed IF, but it was needed. So we have a malevolent blood mage Grace and a benign blood mage Alain (wow, another example!). From this we can learn, that blood magic MUST be studied for the mere fact, that it is the only option to counter another blood spell if you don't have a sh*tload of lyrium at your disposal. Because there will always be evil blood mages, mages, and, on the whole, people.-Algol- (talk) 22:54, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
- Do you have evidence of the joining being blood magic? I've been looking for valid evidence to settle a debate for some time. I agree with the Chantry Bs thing, but I will say this: If Hawke's sibling/LI was not held using blood magic during that quest, blood magic would not have been needed to free them. On the topic of good things from Tevinter: if I recall the lore correctly, the original Grey Wardens were Tevinter. ----Isolationistmagi 22:30, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
- "How about Merrill, cleansing the remains of the Eluvian of darkspawn taint with blood magic?" That, is just plain laughable. Perhaps the demon did not kill her THAT time, but the fact is she was started down a path that can easily wipe out her clan. Even ANDERS, Mage-support crazy as he is, recognizes the danger she poses. As for Templars tracking with phylacteries and the Joining, while it involves blood, is not the same as ripping the blood from someones body to fuel your own strength, or causing their blood to boil so they are roasted alive. "How about Hawke's sibling/LI being liberated in Act3 with blood magic as the only option to do it?" What on earth? I have done that quest aplenty, and blood magic was never needed. Ever. Please explain what one earth you are talking about. As for Malcolm Hawke containing Corypheus, that is one ARGUABLE point, but it easily could have been done with enough lyrium as well. Blood magic was not a necessity. "What horrors and brutalities?" Talk to Fenris. And Anders. And Varania. And lets take a look at the full context of that letter. : "To say the Imperium is a strange place would be a vast understatement. Men and women work magic in the street while their slaves look on. I watched my own master kill a rival magister in a duel just days ago. Sometimes I look around and think I understand the templars in Kirkwall." Lets repeat that. He, a mage, studying in Tevinter, thinks the Templars OF KIRKWALL are right. I'm done here.Croc484 (talk) 02:01, December 24, 2011 (UTC)Croc484
- Wow, that was an interesting point of view:) Don't even know where to begin... Let's see:
- "How about Merrill, cleansing the remains of the Eluvian of darkspawn taint with blood magic?" That, is just plain laughable. Perhaps the demon did not kill her THAT time, but the fact is she was started down a path that can easily wipe out her clan. Even ANDERS, Mage-support crazy as he is, recognizes the danger she poses. As for Templars tracking with phylacteries and the Joining, while it involves blood, is not the same as ripping the blood from someones body to fuel your own strength, or causing their blood to boil so they are roasted alive. "How about Hawke's sibling/LI being liberated in Act3 with blood magic as the only option to do it?" What on earth? I have done that quest aplenty, and blood magic was never needed. Ever. Please explain what one earth you are talking about. As for Malcolm Hawke containing Corypheus, that is one ARGUABLE point, but it easily could have been done with enough lyrium as well. Blood magic was not a necessity. "What horrors and brutalities?" Talk to Fenris. And Anders. And Varania. And lets take a look at the full context of that letter. : "To say the Imperium is a strange place would be a vast understatement. Men and women work magic in the street while their slaves look on. I watched my own master kill a rival magister in a duel just days ago. Sometimes I look around and think I understand the templars in Kirkwall." Lets repeat that. He, a mage, studying in Tevinter, thinks the Templars OF KIRKWALL are right. I'm done here.Croc484 (talk) 02:01, December 24, 2011 (UTC)Croc484
- "Perhaps the demon did not kill her THAT time, but the fact is she was started down a path that can easily wipe out her clan" - please don't mix what you know from future events of the game, with characters' motivation at that particular time. Fact being, she DID cleanse the Eluvian, with no ill effects, otherwise she would have been tainted like Tamlen and Mahariel. What happens next is completely different story.
- "while it involves blood, is not the same as ripping the blood from someones body to fuel your own strength, or causing their blood to boil so they are roasted alive." - no, it is exactly the same. You can wield a sword to kill innocents, you can wield a sword to defend them, it's all THE SAME SWORD. "causing their blood to boil so they are roasted alive" part was especially amusing, so, Crushing Prison, Walking Bomb and Fireball are ok, but blood magic is not? Seriously?
- "I have done that quest aplenty, and blood magic was never needed" - I guess we were doing different quests then, anyone cares to mediate this point? Anyway, read Alain article, especially the "he will begrudgingly use blood magic to free the hostage" part.
- "but it easily could have been done with enough lyrium as well" - are you 100% sure?
- "Lets repeat that. He, a mage, studying in Tevinter, thinks the Templars OF KIRKWALL are right" - that's probably the most amusing part. Where exactly in his letter he was referring to the templars being right? Or is it just your interpretation? If it is, please say so, otherwise I have no other option than to assume, that you've used blood magic to get into poor Feynriel's mind and read his thoughts. Because judging from the letter, he called Tevinter a STRANGE place, and that's all. Strange doesn't mean evil or full of "horrors and brutalities". -Algol- (talk) 02:32, December 24, 2011 (UTC)
- @ Algol: With the joining and the like, the person I was debating with didn't buy the 2 + 2 equals 4, so I've been looking for concrete proof ever since. Your point about the non Tevinter chantry priestess sounds exactly like the kind of bs a non-Tevinter Chantry priestess would spread. And your point about blood magic being needed to counter blood magic was intriguing. It reminds me of the MAD concept of the cold war.
@ Croc 484: She was already on that path long before she ever met the demon, or else she would have never consented to meet it. You must have missed that part in Act II where Alain explains that only blood magic can release the hostage and then pulls out a knife and cuts his hand to power the spell. Even within the context of your quote from Feynriel's letter, you bend his words to your favor. He says neither that the templars are right or that they are wrong. He says that he understands them. Understanding something does not mean you believe it is good or evil.
@ whomever bothers to read this: I maintain that blood magic is neither good nor evil; it is just a tool, the same as any other. It can serve both good and bad functions, but it does not dictate the functions to which it is applied. It is not sentient, it has no will of its own. The notion that blood magic, or any tool/object for that matter, can be either good or evil is absurd. Or, to quote one of my favorite characters from one of my favorite books: "... it is a superstition. It is the superstition of a godless people."
@ everyone involved in this digression: perhaps this should be taken into another forum? ----Isolationistmagi 03:15, December 24, 2011 (UTC)
- We've really went far off-topic, that needs to be fixed. I've wanted to start a new forum about the Joining and blood magic, but since my forum search and all is not working, don't know if one exists already. Care to start a new one?-Algol- (talk) 03:35, December 24, 2011 (UTC)
- Go right ahead. ----Isolationistmagi 03:49, December 24, 2011 (UTC)
I gotta agree with the idea that blood magic in and of itself is not evil. The Grey Warden Joining ritual requires lyrium, darkspawn blood (as mentioned before) and the blood of an archdemon. Also, the lights of Arlathan required blood magic to find. Blood magic just has to be used carefully. For example, summoning demons or allowing them to possess you in any situation is a bad idea. Has it occurred to anyone that the reason Wynne my be acting different is because of the spirit she hosts? She could easily go nuts like Anders did. Demons are after all just spirits consumed by their desires. We see plenty of blood mages around that haven't turned into abominations but most of them are too unimportant to give a name to and because of that may be less memorable. By comparison, aside from the tower infestation, I don't remember very many abominations. I think most blood mages that become abominations feel like it's either that or be killed by the Templars and they'd rather take their chances with the demons. A foolish choice, but still a choice they probably wouldn't have made were there not people trying to kill them wherever they went.
"I am personally very glad that nothing good has come from Tevinter. Hopefully nothing ever will" Why would you say this? Are you happy about the misery that spread from Tevinter? Personally, I hope what is evil in Tevinter is someday taken care of so it can be a better place.--Vampire Damian (talk) 03:04, December 24, 2011 (UTC)
- That was honestly a bad way of wording what I meant, and I apologise. I would agree with you, hopefully Tevinter will someday be cleansed. To Algol on the issue of Alain, I honestly don't know, because that did not happen in my playthroughs. Maybe a bug, I don't know. If it is a bug, then you would be correct and it is a fair point, I apologise. But it did not happen when I played.Croc484 (talk) 04:05, December 24, 2011 (UTC)Croc484