pretty simple topic but one that's kicked around every now and then. With DA3 news slowly creeping in I dove back into the world of DA. Playing through origins and DA2 made me want to ask the simple question.
Do you believe in the maker?
LOL INQUISITION CONFIRMS HE DONT EXIST
There's literally countless opinions on the subject but given everything we've learnt, whats yours? Do your views on the maker reflect your opinion views on religion in the real world? Do you think we as players need to know at some point whether the maker is real or not or would you rather the subject remained vague.--Tabris.the.great (talk) 15:04, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
Well it's fiction, so I have no problem believing that the Maker exists, or the Creators. Possibly (even probably) not in the way the Chantry believes, but yeah I think such an entity might exist. And I really don't get why some people are so adamantly opposed to the idea, other than as a reaction to the Chantry (who I agree are very annoying). I mean in this world we know that at least one entire pantheon (The Old Gods) were real, and that High Dragons have a habit of getting people to worship them (Old Gods, Cult of Andraste, Dragon Cult from Witch Hunt) so it wouldn't surprise me at all if there were "real" entities behind the worship of the Maker, the Creators and the Forgotten Ones (was that the name of the group the Creators warred with, I can't remember).
And on a meta-level there are most certainly god-like entities for the world of Dragon Age- the various peoples involved in the creation of the game, as well as the players. We play games with some of their greatest heroes, shaping them with our wills and deciding the course of key moments in history. Also we have the ability to stop and reverse time. And that's not even mentioning modders.--Liam Sionnach (talk) 17:07, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
I'm more inclined to believe that he exists, but he has never been a benevolent being. For some reason the description of the Maker and the Black City reminds me of The Lord Of Nightmares from the Slayers universe. A monstrous being so powerful that it WAITS to see when it will destroy everything. But to answer your question: yes. Konous (talk) 20:51, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
To answer the question: nope.avi
And if he does, if a deity in a fantasy world sits on its ass, doesn't perform miracles, omens or grant its clerics divine spells, then it's a crappy deity, if you ask me. -Algol- (talk) 17:47, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
I believe in magic and magic is the maker or whatever. Magic is life and life is magic. Maker is the essence of magic. In other words I believe in magic and if that is the Maker, so be it. I dont really care about the Maker just the essence of magic and magic is life so...--188.67.11.242 (talk) 18:28, November 16, 2012 (UTC)Jak Darckner
My game beliefs don't reflect my real religion beliefs.
Having said that, I believe that the Maker does exist, but he ain't what Chantry makes of him. I'd say he's closer to Fan'Harel, than this godly creature. He's a bastard is what he is. Henio0 (talk) 19:18, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
My Guess is that Andraste was a mage, and the Maker was simply a very powerful spirit, ala Justice, but much stronger, like comparing a rage demon to pride. As we already know, what the Chantry tells and actual history tend to diverge greatly. As for the old Gods, I would imagine that they were ancient dragons possessed by Pride Demons, a physical and magical powerhouse, and taught blood magic to humans in return for worship. the Elven Gods might have been powerful lords undergone Uthunera, banished to other realms being the legend that sprung up afterwards. Mike Lane (talk) 19:46, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
Absolutely not. The maker is a figure created by the chantry, both to make them feel good about themselves eventually dying without an afterlife awaiting and to control the masses. DraculaCronqvist (talk) 20:15, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
- Correction, Andraste invented the story about the Maker, the Chantry was found 2 centuries after her death.
The Chantry had absolutley no way to control the masses for at least 200 years afer the death of andraste, until Kordillus Drakkon made it a legitamate force. Mike Lane (talk) 20:26, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
Not personally no, as it's a video game and anyone who gets angry and argues about the existence of a god in video game must have a pretty dull life in my opinion, but I could just be a dick by thinking that. I think it'd be really interesting if it turned out the Maker is in fact real. Although I imagine a lot of the "fans" would probably rage-quit on the series if the Maker turned out to be real. The Maker, The Creators, The Forgotten Ones, the Old Gods, the gods of the Chasind... whatever. There is definetely something out there beyond the Fade. I think that much is clear. (DDragonfly1990 (talk) 21:21, November 16, 2012 (UTC))
- First of all, who is angry, and arguing? Second of all, how is proving the existence of a character other characters refer to a reason to stop playing? Henio0 (talk) 22:21, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
- I am an atheist, but I don't fly into rage when I read the Silmarillion(for those of you wo don't know it, it describes how the gods created everything and the history of elves and such following the creation, by JRR Tolkien) On topic, I don't think the Maker exists as the Chantry says, nor do I think the Creators exist, for the simple reason that there are not enough reasons for them to exist, other than people saying they do.--Agent047 (talk) 22:14, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
I think that people just really enjoy an excuse to complain Mike Lane (talk) 23:59, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
In short, yes I do believe in the Maker. Could it be based on real life beliefs, maybe? However the story of how the darkspawn came makes sense to me as well as the existence of magic and demons. To me it's just depressing to think of DA without the Maker, cause than it makes dark fantasy even darker. Plus maybe I'm missing something but doesn't Corypheus almost confirm his existence? I mean he does talk about the black city... Frostico (talk) 02:38, November 17, 2012 (UTC)Frostico
- Out of curiosity, why/how would the Maker not existing make DA darker? Supposedly he made the spirits, wasn't happy with how they turned out so he bailed on them and made people. Then he cast the Old Gods from the Fade and imprisoned them underground in Thedas. Then he got pissed at the magisters for worshiping them and bailed on them. Then the magisters entered his city and he turned them into darkspawn, cast them back to Thedas and bailed again, which would make the blights his fault. Then he led Andraste away from her husband, causing him to turn on her and get her killed at which point the Maker bailed. I haven't really heard of any good thing he's supposedly done. Doesn't sound like a nice or even well-meaning character. If the Maker doesn't exist, then there must be other explanations but if he does, he seems to either be incompetent or malevolent. I think it's sad that anyone would worship him based on what he's supposedly done. Corypheus mentioned the Black City but he mentioned nothing in it but darkness. --Vampire Damian (talk) 21:44, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
Personally, no. As far as Thedas goes, it already has a god, and his name is David Gaider. Whatever he says goes, so if the Maker exists, it's because he wills/retcons Him into existence or explains Him in later games. Oh, almost forgot, he's also a terrible "god," much like the Maker, so say the wiki. :P RShepard227 (talk) 03:13, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
No and really don't want single god why because that leads to "I destroy my enemies whith POWER OF THE HAVEN!" .But his existence depends to developers but i prefere world without God .Why , because almost every fantasy rpg stereotypically have god or gods ,and i really want play something diffrent than explanation of what happened sound "because gods want that".Minsc and Boo
I don't believe there is an actual singular being in the DA world that created everything, but there may have been a being that said they were and got a bunch of gullible suckers to believe it. Possibly Fen'Harel. In most stories (including the religious stories of our own world), gods don't turn out to be good beings, despite what they say. They're usually along the lines of the martians in Mars Attacks! "We come in peace...*ZAP!*" I think Andraste was a mage and the Chantry did everything they could to cover it up. I am curious though about the land beyond the Fade. I'm not sure if the Black City was ever really golden. I think the Old Gods were likely tricking the magisters, probably in an attempt to free themselves from their prisons. In reality, I am agnostic. My beliefs affect my characters mostly in areas where the DA religions are similar to real religions. I believe our souls go to the astral plane, which is similar in theory to the Fade. There are spirits there that may be native but no actual gods, though some may make that claim. I believe organized religions (which are really just large cults) are almost always detrimental to any world they're a part of. I think it's more important to admit your faults so you can improve on them and find strength within yourself and that associating such strength to gods is insulting to yourself, especially if you don't also associate your weaknesses to your god. --Vampire Damian (talk) 17:06, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
I believe only in God in real life religion, but I can tell something like this: My Cousland and Tabris belive in the Maker, because it was religion they were thought by parents; my Brosca changed religion, because he hated Orzammar and how he was treated there and thinks every religion is better than dwarven; my Mahariel was always a proud Dalish and never rejected her original faith; I have no more wardens; My Hawke says things like "Maker's breath, she so hopeless" about Aveline, he believed in the Maker, but didn't treat priests seriously, he wasn't atheist because priests were hypocrytes. I in real life also think my religion has nothing to do with priests.78.8.3.84 (talk) 18:10, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
Only when I do a city elf warden do I usually have them be a stout andrastian, my noble and my mage wardens tend to question the maker, especially my mage. Basically this is because I would imagine my noble and my mage wardens having had the free time and knowledge in their youth to question such things, where my city elf warden probably didn't. And I suppose my real world view does greatly effect my in game view, as I am an athiest. --Raiuki (talk) 19:15, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
- How do you figure the city elf had less free time than the human noble? Nobles seemed to be much busier than elves in the alienage to me. Plus there's a Chapel in Highever Castle whereas there isn't one in the alienage.--Vampire Damian (talk) 21:44, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
- I've always imagined that my City elf was busy working so his family could make ends meet, just what i imagine for his past.--Raiuki (talk) 01:02, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
In real life I'm a Wicca so I dont think that shows in my characters much. I like playing evil characters because they are fun to play and killing is what I'm good at. The characters at least. My believe comes from Wicca that magic is force of life and life is magic. It is the same in DA world. If some one dos not feel the same they can just be ignorant and stupid. --188.67.4.237 (talk) 09:57, November 18, 2012 (UTC)Jak Darckner
Personally, I think the Maker exists in the game. Just the fact that in the Codex of Origins it explains that in the Fade that the Black City can be seen from any location there seems to solidify that. Also Corypheus talking about Dumat and how the City was supposed to be golden, but was black when they found it. Don't think he'd be forging that story after sitting in that prison for Maker knows how long. --DarthValius (talk) 05:51, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
- I believe in the Maker's existence, but this reasoning is bad. What it proves is that there is a Black/Golden City in the Fade. If there is Maker inside of it, it proves not. Henio0 (talk) 06:09, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I believe in the Maker. And I suppose my personal beliefs do have something to do with that (and, for that matter, my opinion of the Chantry)--though I would not say my belief in God is what makes me think the Maker is real, so much as the manner of my belief makes me open to accepting that an analogous entity would exist in that world. More than that, though, it is a fictional setting, this is the in-game lore I was first introduced to when I started playing, and who am I to question the accepted (human) truth in a fictional world? Plus I happen to really like the Chant of Light version of things, the story of Andraste and the evil magisters who became the first darkspawn, so I want that to be true. But I don’t think we should ever know the truth. I think it’s much more effective (and interesting) to not know. HELO (talk) 14:48, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
I hope the maker does exist only for my son/daughter (old god baby) to kill him and take his place. As for the other gods i be interested in hearing how their story developes and hopefully quest follow. So as to the question does the maker exist yes only for me to take his place.
Signed TrueDalish
Personally I think the Maker does exist within the DA universe. I think my faith in our one true God regarding our world plays a part in this, but I think the game info also shows that the Maker is part of the series. There is some proof of this. Everything exists; therefore it was made by some entity or entities. The Chantry has been right about the Golden City and the darkspawn, confirmed by Corphyus and the fact that the old gods are in fact sealed away. I think that only the Maker could have sealed them all away underground. Also, Elleni Zinovia, who has a strong degree of clairvoyance, has stated that the Maker exists and will return to light the fires of Tevinter. There is also the Guardian at the temple that watches over the sacred ashes. He knew Andraste and was there to witness much of what the Chant of Light talks about. The other spirits of the temple support all this as well. The ashes themselves also have amplified magical properties, and can disrupt spell casting when placed on arrows. This means Andraste did have some kind of greater power placed on her, and that power has transferred to her ashes in some way. Since Andraste did seem to have divine providence in fighting Tevinter, and since she wrote the Chant of Light (EDIT: started a following for the Maker), I am inclined to believe the Chant and that she did in fact have a connection with the Maker. The Chant of Light itself is also a good book to live by in the DA world. So the words seem true. I also think the game presents the Maker's existence as fact, like we are supposed to know that this is the case even if not all the game characters do. Like when Sandal references the issue in DA2. Compare this with the elven creators, who have not done anything for the elves. It was Andraste who liberated them from the Imperium. Also their creators are said to have fought with the Forgotten Ones. This is similar to the info about the Forbidden Ones. If these two groups are the same, then it means the elven creators were nothing more than Fade spirits. Believe it! (talk) 17:51, December 3, 2012 (UTC)
- Imagine that many players don't believe in the Maker simply because they hate the Chantry and they blame them for every evil of this world, they think it's worse than the Blight or demons. They even could blame it for the blight. They also rather support Tevinter. I'm sick of those lunatics. I in real world still believe, hypocrytical priests don't mean I have to be an atheist. 78.8.149.22 (talk) 19:22, December 3, 2012 (UTC)
- "Everything exists; therefore it was made by some entity or entities." - If by entity, you mean a sentient, sapient being, there's no proof of that here or in Thedas.
- "The Chantry has been right about the Golden City and the darkspawn, confirmed by Corphyus and the fact that the old gods are in fact sealed away. I think that only the Maker could have sealed them all away underground." - Corypheus stated that it was already black and made no mention of anybody being there (Maker or otherwise) other than himself and the other Magisters. There's no proof the Black City was ever golden. You thinking the Maker is the only one who could've trapped the Old Gods isn't evidence. The amount of blood and lyrium used in the ritual could've mutated the Magisters into darkspawn.
- "Also, Elleni Zinovia, who has a strong degree of clairvoyance, has stated that the Maker exists and will return to light the fires of Tevinter." - In Gaider's own words on the subject of Eleni Zinovia's preditions (particularly about the Maker)
- G: Well, they could just be vague predictions that a writer tossed in there which could potentially be ascribed to anything in the future. Which makes us look prescient, like we had it planned all along.
- Or it could be about something specific. And you will see Eleni again.
- Scary, huh?
- "There is also the Guardian at the temple that watches over the sacred ashes. He knew Andraste and was there to witness much of what the Chant of Light talks about. The other spirits of the temple support all this as well. The ashes themselves also have amplified magical properties, and can disrupt spell casting when placed on arrows. This means Andraste did have some kind of greater power placed on her, and that power has transferred to her ashes in some way." - None of this is proof of any god. Andraste was most likely a mage with some mental problems, possibly even an abomination. There was a huge Lyrium vein in the mountain under the temple which Oghren will mention if you take him on the mission to get the ashes.
- "Since Andraste did seem to have divine providence in fighting Tevinter, and since she
wrote the Chant of Light(EDIT: started a following for the Maker), I am inclined to believe the Chant and that she did in fact have a connection with the Maker." - On what basis did she seem to have 'divine providence'?
- "Since Andraste did seem to have divine providence in fighting Tevinter, and since she
- "The Chant of Light itself is also a good book to live by in the DA world. So the words seem true. I also think the game presents the Maker's existence as fact, like we are supposed to know that this is the case even if not all the game characters do. Like when Sandal references the issue in DA2. " - Good advice and accurate history are not even close to being the same thing, same goes for opinions/thoughts/beliefs and facts/truth/evidence. Even if the Maker existed, he likely had nothing to do with the Chant. Andraste likely didn't even have anything to do with it. If the Maker does exist and things in the Chant about him are accurate, he's worse than the Chantry. According to the Chant, he created the spirits of the Fade and abandoned them when he got bored. Then punished them for trying to take what he gave them prior to abandoning him. Then he abandoned people for being tricked by them. Then he punished the people for being tricked by them. Then he seduced a married woman and abandoned people again when her husband got her killed. Yeah that sounds about as "good" as the Abrahamic god. Sandal never referenced the Maker. If your referring to his possible prophecy, he could've been talking about something/someone else. The elven creators, the Forgotten Ones, the Old Gods, the tribal gods and the Maker are all likely just Fade spirits. The one who claims to be the "Maker" or is likely either Fen'Harel or a pride demon.
- Basis for Fen'Harel theory: The Old Gods could've been the Forgotten Ones banished by the "Maker" (Fen'Harel). He could've told the elves the Forgotten Ones banished the "Creators", so he banished the Forgotten Ones but the elves see through this so he wanders around til he finds human tribes to trick. He then discourages humans from dealing with elves and gets them to revere wolves. The "attack" led by the Magisters on the city may have even been an attempt by Fen'Harel to free the "Creators" so he could apologize to them or use them in another trick.
- Basis for pride demon theory:
The Chant of Light -
My Maker, know my heart Take from me a life of sorrow Lift me from a world of pain Judge me worthy of Your endless pride
-Transfigurations 12
Blessed are the righteous, the lights in the shadow. In their blood the Maker's will is written.
-Benedictions 4:11
Hmm...what could be used to write your will into people's blood? Clue: It rhymes with Flood Tragic.
Conclusion: He's a pride demon who uses blood magic on people. --Vampire Damian (talk) 07:26, December 4, 2012 (UTC)
@Vampire Damian There is evidence because science states that something cannot be created from nothing. Also, complex systems cannot arise from chaos. Therefore there must be an intelligent designer.
The Maker wasn't there when the magisters invaded the Golden City. He only came back once he sensed that the city had been desecrated. As for the city being black before the magisters entered, that is likely just a matter of Corypheus not recalling the events properly. Though he did not mention the Maker, the Maker was there according to the Chant. It was the Maker who sent the magisters back to the waking world. If the Maker didn't send them back then who did?
The Black City must have been golden at some point in order for the Fade spirits to have a stable basis for creation. If it was always black then everything would be corrupted right from the get go.
The old gods are the most powerful creatures in the world thus far. All seven were sealed at once. Only a force far more powerful and intelligent than all of them combined could have done that, as each is sealed in a different location. Such a task would require a lot of magic and specific timing for mortals or spirits, so it must have been the Maker.
It's possible that the blood and lyrium used in the ritual changed them, but I highly doubt it. If they knew enough to break into the Golden City then they knew enough not to let the blood and lyrium get out of their control. Besides, the magics would be more likely to kill them outright, not twist them into tainted creatures. The taint seems to be more of an antithesis to the Maker's righteousness. An evil to his good. An accident involving blood and lyrium doesn't explain this. If anything they'd end up like Meridith.
Yes, Gaider said that it could be nothing or everything. That's what writers are supposed to say about future storylines because they don't want to spoil anything. My point is that it was stated by Eleni Zinovia and that lends credibility to the idea that the Maker exists.
The claim that she was a mage has no proof. Not only did she fight mages in physical combat, but she never displayed magical talents. Everything that happened was the result of the Maker's intervention. No mage in all of Thedas could control the elements to the degree that the Maker did when he destroyed Andraste's enemies, not even the Tevinter Magisters who were the most skilled and knowledgeable mages at the time.
The lyrium surrounding the temple doesn't explain why the ashes within the urn have special magical properties. Also, Teagan confirms that no magics or remedies worked on Eamon, and that was straight magic. If ashes that simply sat around lyrium are stronger than lyrium based spells and medicines, then it could only mean that there was something stronger than lyrium affecting the ashes. Plus the dwarves (Legionnaire Scouts specifically) show that long exposure to lyrium will cause lyrium resistance. The ashes however enhanced magical abilities, not restricted them.
She had divine providence because the Maker destroyed her enemies with powerful storms and other forces of nature.
But the Chant is good history as well, documenting what did happen with Andraste and the others. My point about the Chant being a good moral guide is evidence that it could be Maker inspired. If the Maker exists then he would want to communicate with his creations somehow. I think he did that through Andraste most of all, and she started the Chant of Light. It was then later picked up by others who followed her. Maybe not all of it is inspired by the Maker, but at least it points people in the right direction toward him. If the Maker exists, then he must approve of the Chant of Light to some extent. Andraste did start it. The first verses we know of were from her talking about how the Maker revealed his will to her.
First off, he's the Maker. He can do whatever he wants. Second, he didn't get bored. He gave the spirits freewill and a great deal of power to mold reality to what they wished. They were in a sense "gods". But instead of create as the Maker intended them to do, they broke the elements of the Golden City loose from where they were and just piled them all in front of the Maker, thinking they did good job. Then the Maker was like, "What a bunch of derps". So he divided the energy of the Fade and with part of that energy made the real world. Then the creations he made there were given dominion over it. The spirits still had the Fade. It's just the Fade was set to a lesser state, which made no difference to the spirits anyway since they just go by whatever they see.
The Maker did not abandon them. He only left when the humans turned to the false gods. The spirits of the Fade were fine until some of them started growing jealous of the dreamers and wanting what they had. That envy turned them into demons. Both the people and the spirits knew what they were doing. Same as Kolgrim. He simply got tired of serving the Maker and preferred to worship a being he could see and whose power could be felt. He abandoned faith in favor of power. So the people weren't tricked. They made the conscious choice to turn away from the Maker first. So the Maker said, "Fine, if that's what you want, forget you people". He could have just destroyed everything, then they'd be none the wiser, but he left them to their own rule.
He did return when he heard Andraste singing though, and remember the lore says that she was singing to false gods. Which means the Maker didn't take offense to those who turned to false gods out of ignorance. Andraste had been taught nothing else in her life. The Maker didn't blame her for that, and he answered her song in spite of it. When he revealed his will to her she eagerly accepted him. He did not seduce her. I don't know where you got that from. And her husband did not get her killed, he helped kill her. It was a conscious choice to give her over to her death.
I think our one true God is great. I'm sorry that you don't realize this. But is that why you dislike DA's Maker? Is your dislike of God spilling over into the game by any chance?
Sandal referred to a single "he" and how when this "he" rises everyone will "see". Based on this, the "he" must be omnipresent to apply any effects to everyone. The only one we know of thus far who can do that is the Maker. Everything else Sandal said in that quote might not take place as a result of this "he". So I won't refer to that as reference for who this "he" really is.
Why Sandal said all that is unknown. It could have been a demon whispering to another in the Fade and Sandal just happened to hear it somehow. Or maybe he was remembering something he heard once. My point is that the game itself has something going on where we are nudged to think that the Maker exists.
The elven creators are more than one, same with old gods and Forgotten Ones.
The Maker can't be a Fade spirit because Fade spirits don't even understand the waking world let alone have the power to create anything in it.
Fen'Harel was just a trickster to the Forbidden Ones, not to humans. His purpose was to help the elven "gods" defeat the evil ones. He also never cared for the people, while the Maker did. Besides, elven lore says that other elven "gods" created the world. These "gods" were actually Fade spirits. Evidence of this is seen in the Forbidden Ones and Forgotten Ones being very similar in description and action. We know for certain that the Forbidden Ones are Fade demons. So the equal but opposite enemies of these demons must have been spirits. According to the lore, the elven spirits could not defeat the Forbidden Ones with their own power. They needed Fen'Harel to trick them as well. It says Fen'Harel sealed them away in the "abyss" so they could no longer walk among the people, but this implies that the Forbidden Ones walk, not fly, as dragons do. Also, we see that the Forgotten Ones are not sealed away any longer. Thus Fen'Harel can't be the Maker, and the Forbidden Ones can't be the old gods.
The idea that Fen'Harel tricked humans is baseless. The human tribes didn't believe in the Maker. They all had their own false gods and ancestors. The Avvar are a prime example of those who knew nothing of the Maker. They worshiped Koreth, Hakkon, The Lady, and then all kinds of animal "gods". The Chasind are even worse in what they believe. The first one to believe in the Maker so long after people first turned from him was Andraste, and that was long after the old gods were sealed. By this time Fen'Harel's work would have long been complete. So the Fen'Harel theory doesn't hold up.
Also, the humans were not discouraged from dealing with elves, and they never revered wolves except maybe the Avvar, but they worshiped all kinds of animals. Tevinter destroyed Arlathan and enslaved the elves. It was the Maker, Andraste, and Maferath + army that saved the elves and gave them the Dales, and then the Dales were later taken when the elves refused the Maker and went on to attack human villages.
The Maker can't be a pride demon because 1. He doesn't envy humans. 2. He isn't prideful. 3. Demons don't understand the waking world and do not have the power to create it.
Um... the invasion of the Golden City was at the encouragement of the old god Dumat, and Corypheus confirms this.
"Pride" doesn't always refer to the inward form. Pride is good in the example of a father being proud of his child. That is what the verse is referring to. Also notice how it asks for a life free from sorrow and pain, which Pride Demons aren't in the business of granting.
The blood verse refers to the Maker's will being with that righteous person. Doing the Maker's will is something you choose. No magic is involved. Believe it! (talk) 06:21, December 5, 2012 (UTC)
"There is evidence because science states that something cannot be created from nothing. Also, complex systems cannot arise from chaos. Therefore there must be an intelligent designer." - If something can't be created from nothing, then where did your intelligent designer come from?
"The claim that she was a mage has no proof." - Neither does the claim that she was chosen by the Maker. you can't use the Chant to prove the Chant is correct, just like you can't use the Bible to prove the Bible is correct. The Magisters sank Arlathan and physically entered the Fade. Meredith never tried to enter the Fade and her exposure was to a much lesser degree over a longer period of time.
"But the Chant is good history as well, documenting what did happen with Andraste and the others." - A large portion of that is now in the Dissonant Verses and we have almost no one else's version of the story to compare it to. Avernus claimed it was lies but didn't elaborate.
"Plus the dwarves (Legionnaire Scouts specifically) show that long exposure to lyrium will cause lyrium resistance. The ashes however enhanced magical abilities, not restricted them." - The ashes could restrict magical abilities. The arrows (which you pointed out yourself) interrupt spellcasting. Long exposure to lyrium causes resistance in living dwarves, not necessarily so for dead human (or abomination) ashes. But let's say it does for right now. If I remember correctly, Eamon's poison was magical, so if the ashes nullified magical effects it could explain why it worked.
"The Black City must have been golden at some point in order for the Fade spirits to have a stable basis for creation. If it was always black then everything would be corrupted right from the get go." - According to the Chant, he created the Fade spirits before he created the Golden City.
"First off, he's the Maker. He can do whatever he wants. Second, he didn't get bored. He gave the spirits freewill and a great deal of power to mold reality to what they wished. They were in a sense "gods". But instead of create as the Maker intended them to do, they broke the elements of the Golden City loose from where they were and just piled them all in front of the Maker, thinking they did good job. Then the Maker was like, "What a bunch of derps"." - According to the Chant of Light, you're wrong...again.
And he said to them: In My image I forge you, to you I give dominion over all that exists. By your will may all things be done.
Then in the center of heaven he called forth a city with towers of gold, streets with music for cobblestones, and banners which flew without wind. There, He dwelled, waiting to see the wonders his children would create.
The children of the Maker gathered before his golden throne and sang hymns of praise unending. But their songs were the songs of the cobblestones. They shone with the golden light reflected from the Maker's throne. They held forth the banners that flew on their own.
And the voice of the Maker shook the Fade saying: In my image I have wrought my firstborn. You have been given dominion over all that exists. By your will all things are done. Yet you do nothing. The realm I have given you is formless, ever-changing. And He knew he had wrought amiss. So the Maker turned from his firstborn. - Threnodies 5 (the Maker's first children).
- So basically he screwed up when he made them (so much for perfect) and abandoned them for not living up to his expectations. He obviously can't do whatever he wants or the Fade spirits would've been perfect and he would've had no reason to create Thedas. He also could've killed the Old Gods instead of imprisoning them if he was so powerful. He could've just killed the Magisters too instead of turning them into darkspawn.
"The Maker did not abandon them. He only left when the humans turned to the false gods." - False gods which he sent to Thedas with the idea that they should rule over all things. After he abandoned them for doing nothing, the Old Gods could've thought doing what he previously wanted would make him happy. The Maker seems to have a complete lack of foresight.
"He did return when he heard Andraste singing though." - Or she was just hearing voices in her head like Leliana.
"The elven creators are more than one, same with old gods and Forgotten Ones." - I never claimed otherwise.
"Fen'Harel was just a trickster to the Forbidden Ones, not to humans." - He tricked the "Creators" and the Forgotten Ones. I theorized that he tricked the humans (who would've likely been unknown to him until he started wandering around Thedas) to strike at the elves who didn't believe his cover story. Also, according to elvhen lore, the Creators created the elvhen people and a few other things but the Sun and the Earth 'kissed' and made Elgar'nan, the father of the Creators. They make no mention of how the Sun and Earth came to be. BTW, the pride demon theory was a joke, though it wouldn't surprise me if the Maker used blood magic.
"The human tribes didn't believe in the Maker." - True but in my theory he would've still taken the form of a wolf at this time. The wolf was the most sacred animal of the Alamarri tribes. Maferath and Andraste led at least part, if not all of the Alamarri. The Alamarri are the ancestors of the Fereldens and later branched off into other tribes. The Alamarri took the plains (bannorn) while the Avvars took the hills (Frostback mountains) and the Chasind took the wilds. I could go into much greater detail here but according to the lore, Fen'Harel could still be around somewhere in Thedas and he is known as the lord of Tricksters, so a lengthy elaborate trick (or series of tricks) is right up his alley. He could be sitting in a throne in the center of the Black City laughing like a hyena.
"It says Fen'Harel sealed them away in the "abyss" so they could no longer walk among the people, but this implies that the Forbidden Ones walk, not fly, as dragons do." - Really? This is probably the stupidest thing said in this entire topic. I shouldn't have to point out why but it seems like you couldn't figure it out on your own, so here goes. Dragons also have legs...and sometimes...they even use them...to walk.
"Also, we see that the Forgotten Ones are not sealed away any longer. Thus Fen'Harel can't be the Maker, and the Forbidden Ones can't be the old gods." - In my Fen'Harel theory, I said the Old Gods could've been the Forgotten Ones, not the Forbidden Ones (which they are clearly not).
"Um... the invasion of the Golden City was at the encouragement of the old god Dumat, and Corypheus confirms this." - You don't even understand the concept of trickery do you? Fen'Harel would love you.
"As for the city being black before the magisters entered, that is likely just a matter of Corypheus not recalling the events properly." - So if Corypheus says something to support your ideas, it's confirmation but if he says something to contradict them, he's suddenly not recalling the events properly. You can't have it both ways and an eyewitness is a far more dependable source than a book written centuries after it happened by people who weren't there.
"I think our one true God is great. I'm sorry that you don't realize this. But is that why you dislike DA's Maker? Is your dislike of God spilling over into the game by any chance?" - First off, Your god is not my god. I have no desire for or need of gods. I don't believe they exist and I don't know of any worth worshiping even if they did exist. Second, you mean like how your liking of your god is spilling over onto the Maker? Possibly but only due to the similarities between them (same goes for you, I'd imagine). There is no proof that there are any true gods in our universe. That is why religions are systems of belief and not knowledge.
There is also no proof that if there was a god, that they would be good. If the Maker does exist, he is a terrible father interested only in his own entertainment. Just one of the things he has in common with your god. I don't see how you can hold a supposed 'god' to a lower standard than humans and still claim it's superior. The Chant primarily spreads obedience to the Chantry, a phobia of magic and hatred of non-believers. The Bible primarily spreads obedience to the Church, a phobia of knowledge and hatred of non-believers.
The very root of your religion (and Islam/Judaism) is a primitive man living in the desert several thousand years ago who was going to kill his son because the voice in his head told him to. It's not much better if the voice was god because then he would be tormenting his children just to prove a point to Lucifer. Events called "acts of god (or the Maker in DA) are disasters while the supposed "miracles" remain pointless. God will hit Japan with a Tsunami and then appear on a peace of toast in Mexico all the while ignoring kids who starve to death while praying for food in Africa. The Maker doomed the world for the actions of a few people. If a person did what the Maker supposedly did in DA, most people in Thedas would want his blood. Same for your god in our world.--Vampire Damian (talk) 14:59, December 5, 2012 (UTC)
I don't think there is as there isn't enough evidence and most of the evidence can be explained in different ways such as magic. I don't personally believe in god and one of Morrigan's quotes sums it up " I feel no need to shout at the moon because some reluctant father figure has abandoned me" or something like that --Halisme (talk) 16:47, December 5, 2012 (UTC)
I will say that the writers left it ambiguous for the most part. The Chantry isn't exactly the most reliable source, but there was something about Andraste. I think the most compelling evidence of the Maker in-game is the fact that if you should kill her in Dragon Age: Origins after defiling the Urn of Sacred Ashes, she appears in Dragon Age II with this gem in the codex:
"Some even say she died at the hands of the Hero of Ferelden. How she could be alive—and reportedly acting as an agent of the Divine—is unknown. Perhaps the story of her death is exaggerated... or perhaps the supposed place of her demise, the altar of the fabled Urn of Sacred Ashes, is also the place of her rebirth. The truth remains to be seen."
I do not think that magic can resurrect the dead like that. It points to something beyond the lyrium in the Temple. After all, if you could be resurrected by being near lyrium, the Dwarves would have discovered this for sure.
That said, one can ask this: Are the Ashes and Gauntlet miraculous because of the lyrium nearby or is there lyrium nearby because of the Ashes and Gauntlet? How does lyrium form anyway?
That said, aside from all the evidence above, I cannot rule out the divine with the presence of magic, the Fade, Spirits, and Demons.
I do not agree with the Chantry on a few issues such as Templars and Mages. Nor do I buy into the Maker "shunning" the world. Leliana says differently and she can turn out to have been resurrected at the shrine if you kill her.
I would also point out that this is a forum for discussing events in Dragon Age. I don't appreciate seeing Christians and Atheists going at it. Again. I see enough of that everywhere else on the internet. I won't say what I believe or don't believe, but suffice to say, atheists and Christians attacking each other's beliefs isn't constructive. So, enough insults of God, Vampire. Atheists killed 20 Million in the Soviet Union's history and that's one church and we all know of the Crusades. So, no one has room to talk. --Almostinsane (User talk:Almostinsane) 21:48, December 5, 2012 (UTC)
- Judging by what I've seen/heard of lyrium, it grows in veins underground like metals/crystals do in reality. Probably most similar to radium. Magic can resurrect people in DA to about the same extent science can in our world. If you've been dead for a few minutes, you got a good chance but if it's been months, no amount of healing magic will work (supposedly). Necromancy on the other hand...I only have 1 Warden that killed Leliana and he cut off her head, so I'd like to see how the ashes would work there. Also, Wynne's corpse was right next to hers, did she get resurrected too? Did her spirit of Faith help either of them?
20 million hardly compares to the billions slaughtered by various religious organizations. That's also possibly separate from what any god (if any exist) has supposedly done. Why they did it should also be considered. I think history has shown religion (particularly Abrahamic religion) to be destructive, thus my main problem with it. The topic does include the relation (if any) between our ideas about our own religious mythology and DA's religious mythology. However I also tire of these types of discussions since the Christians/Muslims I get into it with rarely say anything different. I'm an agnostic anti-theist though, not an atheist. I find them to be often as closed minded as Christians/Muslims, though at least they don't want to kill me for not believing the Earth is 6,000 years old and flat. --Vampire Damian (talk) 17:01, December 6, 2012 (UTC)
In real world exists a philosophy called deism, which means God created the world and left it to own fate and metaphisical events in history can be explained rationaly. In DA we can say it about the Maker and the Creators, yet I treat "dwarven ancestors" as spirits of dead who travelled into the Fade. 74.120.188.5 (talk) 22:48, December 5, 2012 (UTC)
@Vampire Damian The intelligent designer (in my view, God) exists outside of time and all other laws of reality, which were created by God. The designer was not created, but is ever existent. I would think DA's universe would work the same way even though its universe has magic. This magic is still a force of energy and logically should also have a source.
So you admit that there is no proof that she was a mage. Good. That she was chosen by the Maker is seen in history. She led Maferath's army against the strongest empire ever known and beat them easily because the Maker turned the elements against them. The Magisters and Meredith are similar as to what magical forces they were dealing with. All I'm saying is that death is the only observed result from such forces. The darkspawn taint is very specific as to what it does and how it works. It isn't likely that indiscriminate forces of lyrium and blood caused bodies to be altered but not destroyed so that they become infectious with some sort of disease that seems more biological rather than magical. Being corrupted by one's own evil within the Fade and then bringing that ugly horror back with you is the more plausible theory.
We do have other sources confirming the Chant. These sources are found in the temple, where the spirits of Maferath, Shartan, and others testify to the events surrounding Andraste. What did Avernus say exactly? I only remember him countering Leliana saying the Maker forbids the kind of magic Avernus uses. He does this by saying that short-sighted men forbid it, not any god. That is only a reference to Chantry opinion, not necessarily anything the Maker has said or even anything in the Chant of Light.
True that the ashes interrupt spell casting, but the question is how they do it. According to Wynne, a spell is a very complex art form. One word misspoken or gesture overlooked and the spell could have disastrous results. The ashes might cancel a spell by causing a sudden overload in magic or by refocusing mana away from the spell. Basically, it has the same effect as hitting a mage with a sword to the extent that they lose control of the spell. Or like how the Dead Thaig Shanker words. Seeing as how the ashes amplify magic in Eamon's case, it doesn't seem likely that they have the ability to restrict. After all, I don't think an Arrow of Andraste dispels buffs or cancels out mana, just disrupts a spell that is in the process of being cast. Or, if they can restrict magic, then this all seems contingent upon what effect the user desires or how the ashes are applied. Such a thing would suggest an intelligent force behind the ashes.
I don't think Eamon's poison was ever said to be magical. Jowan was a mage, but that was just his reason for being in Redcliffe Castle (to teach Conner). It had nothing to do with the poison that was used. However, it might not have been the poison that was keeping Eamon under at that point. It may have been a case of Eamon's spirit being trapped in the Fade (due to the desire demon). So if that's the case then a restrictive property could have severed Eamon's link to the Fade thus causing his spirit to return. That's possible, and you could be right in this case. But that wouldn't explain why the mage was there. After the ashes were placed on Eamon the mage they had there still had to use a healing spell. In any case, the ashes were said by many to hold healing properties. A simple magic restriction doesn't explain this.
So you're saying the spirits first spawned in the Fade without any Maker to create them? Possible. But then who created the city? And if it was always black then who created it as a corrupt city? The codex says the spirits and demons avoid it. According to Avernus the secret of the darkspawn taint is within the city. And according to the codex the demons don't understand the darkspawn taint, which is why they never try to possess them.
Whoa, hold on. Now you're changing the issue. I said the Maker did not get bored. I never said that he made the Fade spirits to be perfect, and I never said the Maker was perfect. Even the Maker admitted that he wrought amiss. He did not abandon them. He remained in the Golden City until those in the real world turned from him. By that time many of the spirits had turned evil because they coveted the mortal world and turned people away from the Maker.
The dragons were just part of his creation. He never intended them to rule over anything as gods. Whatever foresight the Maker has is irrelevant. The issue is if we believe the Maker exists in the DA universe. I think he does, foresight or no.
Andraste's testimony proved true about the Black City. So was her claim that the Maker would help them be victorious over Tevinter.
Then if you admit that the others are more than one while the Maker is only one, then these cannot be the same entity. Their stories don't match.
Okay, but the humans who followed Andraste didn't strike at the elves. They liberated the elves and gave them the Dales. It wasn't until those elves attacked humans that the humans crushed them. Even in the present the Dalish are allowed to roam the countryside. This also goes against his stated story of not caring about the people. Why would he care if some don't believe his story? Even the story itself apart from the humans doesn't make sense. If Fen'Harel trapped all the others, then who told the elves anything? How do they know Fen'Harel trapped the others? Why not just pose as the others?
It wouldn't surprise me if the Maker used blood magic either. He can do whatever he wants. He created magic and blood, why not? I don't see anything in the Chant that condemns blood magic.
If he were in the Black City he would be the darkest of demons. The lore says that none of the spirits go there because it's so corrupted.
The lore specifically says "walk". I believe words have meaning. So I go by the facts. Dragons have legs but they don't typically walk as walking is understood. They either crawl, climb, or fly.
Okay, so then the evil "gods" of elven lore can't possibly be the old gods because the old god Dumat was freed from his prison. Fen'Harel's story said he sealed them away so that they could never walk among the people again. Yet Dumat was able to communicate with the Magisters through the Fade, and he was later released. So clearly Fen'Harel is just a myth, as the story doesn't add up. Unless of course there are Forgotten Ones sealed away somewhere that we don't know about. But the most likely explanation is that the Forgotten Ones are the Forbidden Ones, and Fen'Harel is just some demon. Maybe even a pride demon. And all he did was trick the Forbidden Ones into returning to the Fade, as was the case with the other spirits, and then he closed the portals sealing them all inside. The Dalish belief that it was forever was simply incorrect, as was their belief that these spirits were "gods". In any case, we know for sure that the old gods would not have gone underground willingly for anything. The elven lore says that they "returned" to the abyss, which indicates the abyss was their place of origin. Dragons don't originate from that deep under the earth.
So you're saying Fen'Harel posed as Dumat and spoke to Corypheus? That doesn't make sense. It isn't that trickery is present, it's that your theory is full of holes.
It depends what Corypheus is talking about. In the evidence I used to support my theory, Corypheus was an authority on the matter. In yours he was a first time observer who was then radically altered by the event he witnessed. However, I have watched the video regarding Corypheus' ramblings, and I say he never said the city was always black or black when they found it. All he said was that it was supposed to be golden. That does not imply that it was not golden when they found it. That could mean that the city was supposed to STAY golden as they took it over and claimed the Maker's power for themselves. He was referring to what Dumat promised them it would be.
My love of the one true God isn't spilling over onto the Maker. I think the Maker exists in the DA storyline because there is evidence for it in the game. I don't care if the Maker exists in DA or not. It doesn't affect me in any way. I think there is proof that God exists, but that's a different issue. I was just wondering if your opinion on DA was being influenced by this issue in real life.
How we score the Maker is a matter of opinion. I disagree with yours, but the topic is if we think he exists in the DA universe or not.
God can entertain himself better than we can, I assure you. He's interested in our salvation, which is why He sent His son Jesus to die for our sins. I can't hold any standard to God, because I am lower than He is, as are we all. He's superior because He's God. It doesn't matter what I think, that's how it is. God is the only one who can set standards because He is the only true authority. Any rules that mankind makes up must be derived from God's law, otherwise our rules are meaningless, to be discarded at our own convenience. Logically, I'm sure it would work the same way in the DA universe. Where does the Chant demand obedience to the Chantry? That Chantry has no phobia of magic. They use magic in a productive way, and take logical precautions against magic being abused. Do some followers go to illogical extremes? Of course, but you can't blame the whole for the actions of a few. Is there a better way? Yes. But the people just aren't there yet. It takes time. There is no hatred of non-believers. The Dalish are allowed to roam the country. The dwarves too. Even the qunari. In fact, the Revered Mother of Lothering will even release Sten if convinced that he is repentant and can do some good in the world rather than just being left for the darkspawn. I'd say the Chantry is pretty loving. The Bible demands obedience to God, not the church. The Bible is knowledge, and it teaches to love the sinner but hate the sin.
That's your uninformed opinion, and you're entitled to it, just as I am entitled to disagree. Believe it! (talk) 02:34, December 6, 2012 (UTC)
"This magic is still a force of energy and logically should also have a source." - True, but that source doesn't have to be anymore intelligent than an atom or a strand of DNA.
"So you admit that there is no proof that she was a mage. Good. That she was chosen by the Maker is seen in history." - A perfect example of how you distort things. I said there was as much proof of her being a mage as there is for her being "the Maker's chosen". I am open to both possibilities as neither has been confirmed, unlike you who twist everything in an attempt to suit your opinions and attempt to claim that they're facts. The Search for the True Prophet claims Andraste was a mage, the Chant of light claims she was "the Maker's chosen", neither has any proof.
"The Magisters and Meredith are similar as to what magical forces they were dealing with." - If by magical forces you mean blood and lyrium, then yes. However the Magisters had far more of it.
"All I'm saying is that death is the only observed result from such forces." - No, it isn't. It can cause various physical and mental problems. Mages can be mutated, people can go several kinds of crazy, get rashes or just start bleeding from every orifice. Look at the codex for lyrium.
"We do have other sources confirming the Chant. These sources are found in the temple, where the spirits of Maferath, Shartan, and others testify to the events surrounding Andraste." - Those ash wraiths may have just been Fade spirits. The closest thing to evidence for them actually being those people's spirits came from Kolgrim, so if you believe that then you should consider the chance that the dragon was the reincarnation of Andraste as well.
"What did Avernus say exactly?" A: Only under Wardens can true magical research continue. A chance to rediscover the secrets of ancient Tevinter. W: You do remember how that ended? The Black City? Darkspawn? A: Chantry lies told to subjugate the mages. To keep them docile. W: How do you know the Chantry is wrong? A: And how do you know they are right? Their faith would have you swallow a great deal for small comfort.
As far as anything regarding the Fen'Harel/Maker theory goes, it was a theory (generic usage of theory, scientifically it'd be a hypothesis), an idea, a possibility, I never claimed it was cold hard fact or even completely thought out, though I do have a longer much more detailed version somewhere (along with several other ideas). None of the mythical gods (including the Maker) have been proven to exist as of yet in Thedas. They could all exist or none could exist or maybe just some exist. Also, all (or some) might exist with none (or few) being actual gods.
"So you're saying the spirits first spawned in the Fade without any Maker to create them?" - No, I was stating that according to the Chant of Light, the Maker created the Fade and it's spirits, then created the Golden City. We have no evidence that this story is true but neither do we have any evidence that it's not true.
"The dragons were just part of his creation. He never intended them to rule over anything as gods." - According to the Chant of Light, he did intend for his first children (the Old Gods and other Fade spirits) to rule over the Fade as gods. When he (supposedly) banished them from the Fade and imprisoned them on Earth, they either inhabited the bodies of high dragons or took the form of high dragons.
"The lore specifically says "walk". I believe words have meaning. So I go by the facts. Dragons have legs but they don't typically walk as walking is understood. They either crawl, climb, or fly." - By definition, walking is done on feet, whereas crawling is done on the hands and knees. In game, dragons either walk or fly, though there's no reason why they couldn't also crawl or climb.
"It may have been a case of Eamon's spirit being trapped in the Fade (due to the desire demon). So if that's the case then a restrictive property could have severed Eamon's link to the Fade thus causing his spirit to return." - If that was the case, banishing or killing the desire demon or Connor could have achieved Eamon's return with or without the ashes.
"There is no hatred of non-believers." - Yes, there is. Inquisitions, Exalted Marches, various degrading references to heathens.
"I say he never said the city was always black or black when they found it." - Corypheus: The light. We sought the golden light. You offered... the power of the gods themselves. But it was... black... corrupt. Darkness... ever since. How long?
"The lore says that none of the spirits go there because it's so corrupted." - No, Avernus says that the Taint is alien and poisonous to Fade spirits and the lore says that the City was inaccessible for spirit or mortal until Corypheus and co. opened the door.
"That Chantry has no phobia of magic. They use magic in a productive way, and take logical precautions against magic being abused." - They imprison children and never allow circles mages to have children (though Wynne proved that they still do sometimes, despite this rule). The Templars also scare them into obedience, making them perfect targets for demons. Those that are not obedient, they (attempt to) kill. A mage must be strong willed to resist a demon. The Chantry/Templars greatly interfere in this by imposing their will on the mages.
I'm not uninformed, though my memory isn't always that great. The Bible is not knowledge. If it was, you wouldn't need faith to believe it. You wouldn't need to believe it at all actually because you would know it. It's the difference between knowing that 2 + 2 = 4 and believing bigfoot exists. It's poorly written by Middle Eastern bronze age priests and has been poorly edited and poorly translated over the last few thousand years. It's rife with contradictions and inaccuracies, not to mention all the missing books. Most of it's believers cherry pick what they believe and make up shit that isn't in there anyway, which just goes to show how little it actually means to them. It's rife with contradictions, inaccuracies and heavily altered pagan mythology stolen from the pagans Christians slaughtered every chance they got. You could gain more real knowledge from Word-of-the-Day toilet paper. I'm not even saying don't believe in any gods, I'm just saying consider other possibilities and don't just take anything you can't explain and say 'god did it'. For example, maybe Jesus was a witch. Add that to him being Jewish and you could say he's a Jewitch :p lol. --Vampire Damian (talk) 17:01, December 6, 2012 (UTC)
I believe he exists, yes. Why? [[1]] That's the most compelling reason to me. Whether or not he exists as defined by the Chantry's version of the truth is another matter altogether. 83.223.121.252 (talk) 16:13, December 6, 2012 (UTC)
Chant of light is a lie. --87.93.44.235 (talk) 22:25, December 6, 2012 (UTC)UMBRELLA corporation.
@Vampire Damian The source must be intelligent if the created force has complexity. If we found a working pocket-watch on Mars, you wouldn't think that it was created by random forces over a period of time would you?
I wrote: "The claim that she was a mage has no proof." Then you wrote: "Neither does the claim that she was chosen by the Maker." That statement equalizes the theories since you thought that mine had no proof. So you admitted your theory had no proof. You then went on to admit this again, so I don't understand what your problem is. What this boils down to is you simply rejecting the proof I posted.
The Magisters having more of it doesn't matter. The amount Meridith had was enough to completely solidify her body and transform it in to... whatever it was. The same would have happened to the Magisters since they were using the same thing. The reason it didn't is because they could actually control it. What corrupted them was their own sin made manifest by the Fade.
I wasn't referring to normal blue lyrium though, I was referring to the red lyrium.
Those were not ash wraiths. The ash wraiths only appear if you answer incorrectly (or if you don't have any companions with you for the bridge). They couldn't have been Fade spirits because they knew specific things about mortal history. Fade spirits don't even understand the mortal world, nor do they express great interest in it (according to Justice). So there's no way Fade spirits could have known about mortal world history.
Okay, so Avernus thinks the Chantry lies. That's just his opinion. Also notice how he never answers the question of how he knows the Chantry is wrong. Anders thinks the same thing unless and until you take him to fight Corypheus.
I suppose the Maker's existence hasn't been officially proven yet, but I still think there's a lot of evidence for it in the games and that's why I think he does exist.
... Okay well the topic was the Fade spirits needing a stable basis for creation. I assumed they needed the Golden City at some point, but the Chant says the Maker created them in the regular Fade first, which means they didn't need the Golden City. So they could have spawned outside the city when they first came into being. I retract this point.
The old gods were not Fade spirits, and the Fade spirits were not sent to the mortal world. They remained in the Fade. That is where some spirits grew jealous of the mortals and through that envy became demons. These demons then reached out to mortals and began leading them away from the Maker. The old gods were created in the mortal world. How they became old gods is unknown, but I suspect they started out as normal dragons, and then after many years of worship by mortals and perhaps some mage tampering they became powerful and sentient. I think the the Frostback dragon would have become comparable to an old god if Kolgrim and company had been allowed to keep worshiping it.
Walking also usually refers to using legs. Hind legs to be exact. In any case, the Fen'Harel story says he sealed them so they could never walk among the people again, but since most of the old gods were released, it shows that the Fen'Harel story is just a myth, unless there are Forgotten Ones we don't know about.
No, because killing the demon and/or Conner does not bring Eamon back from the Fade. What I'm saying is that the demon may have placed Eamon in such a deep sleep so that he couldn't get back from the Fade. If the ashes restrict magic, then it may have been what was needed to sever his link to the Fade, thus causing his spirit to return to his body.
The Inquisitions are done to find out info, like how Cass questioned Varric. The Exalted Marches are done in response to an atrocity, such as the Dales attacking human villages, or a qunari invasion, or perhaps dwarves murdering a Chantry priest (though in this case there was only talk of it, and it never happened). References such as "maleficar" are not degrading and do not indicate hatred.
"But it was... black... corrupt," does not indicate that it was black when they found it, just that it was black and corrupt at some point. It could have been after they found it and took their first step toward it. "Darkness... ever since," seems to imply that it was not dark at some point, and then it became dark and has stayed that way ever since that point. To me it seems clear that Corypheus is saying that Dumat promised them a golden power, but that power did not stay golden when they approached it, and it has remained as darkness ever since then.
The codex for the black city says that it is always visible in the Fade, off in the distance, and that spirits and demons never go there.
They don't imprison children, they protect them. They do this to ensure that something like what happened to Conner doesn't happen to the kids and others they help. Not allowing them to have children is wrong, and it is something to be corrected. I don't think this stems from a phobia of magic though. It's Darwinism in a sense. Any templar who scares the mages into obedience is in violation of his or her duty. They are only supposed to be there in case a mage turns maleficar or abomination. That some templars abuse their position is their fault, not the Chantry's. A mage need only be strong willed against evil. Therefore the Chantry does not interfere with a mage's mental discipline.
The Bible is knowledge on the historical level even without faith. However, it is also spiritual knowledge. In order to obtain knowledge of the spiritual, faith is required. Just as putting forth the effort to learn is what one must do to gain knowledge. After taking the first steps of faith, one does come to know it as fact, as the spirit of God can be felt within those who are saved through Christ. Again, the discrepancies you think are in the Bible stem from your misunderstanding of the Bible. If you were to study it with an open heart you would see that it is not inaccurate nor is it contradictory. There are no missing books. What believers do or don't do is on them. You can't blame God's word for their actions. Same as how you can't blame the Chantry if individual templars go against what the Chant says. There is no mythology from any other cultures or religions. The Pagan influence only exists in the Catholic denomination and any others derived from that. It does not exist in the Bible. Christians have never slaughtered any group of people. The idea that we have is just historically false. Believe it! (talk) 04:54, December 7, 2012 (UTC)
- Most of what he/she just said is null. That can be verified by certain codex entries and researching the history of Christianity. I don't have the patience to keep correcting him/her though. --Vampire Damian (talk) 08:32, December 7, 2012 (UTC)
Chant of light is a lie. --188.67.71.43 (talk) 08:07, December 7, 2012 (UTC)UMBRELLA corporation
Sweet merciful lord of pies, @Vampire Damian, I apologize for our mutual contributor. @Believe it!, I'm very sorry, but I would suggest that you attend a university and study biology (Preferably Chemistry too) and speak to your lecturers/professors. It's not so much that there is no need for a god, rather that there is no evidence for any. But let's say you're right, let's say the Abrahamic god is real, it doesn't change the fact that he came about by the means of natural selection. Grasping for straws for you here mate, but if it is real, then it is just a member/members of a very old and advanced species with a god complex. And how do you know that your god is true? Why isn't Amun'Ra real? Thor? All manner of gods?
But I digress, please take an interest in science and approach the data with an unbiased perspective.
To get back on topic, if the Maker is real, I believe he's just a powerful fade spirit. It's a fantasy story so gods might be real, I don't know. But it seams likely to me that the world came to be due to natural forces and perhaps the "fade" is just another dimension that can be breached in that universe. The Mist anyone? --58.170.240.53 (talk) 10:42, December 7, 2012 (UTC)Spudmeister
@EzzyD The Crusades were to stop people from being slaughtered at the hands of the Muslims.
@Vampire Damian The codexes back me up. That's where I got my information from.
@NoName Why should I attend a university to study biology? Is it because most universities all preach the same faith that you hold? I already know biology, and it also stands as evidence that God exists. Even the most basic life form is too complex to have arisen from spontaneous events. As for chemistry, it shows that living material cannot be created from non-living material. Abiogenesis is scientifically impossible. There is plenty of evidence that God exists. Natural selection is a simple occurrence that happens in nature, and it is one God created. Natural selection doesn't apply to Him, He exists independently of everything else as an eternal being and He is the only God. I know God is true because I'm saved through Christ. I recommend you look this up and study it, then talk to a Christian pastor about it. Science supports the Bible.
The Maker can't be a powerful Fade spirit because Fade spirits don't understand the mortal world. The Maker created both the Fade and the mortal world. It's possible that the DA universe came about from natural forces since the laws of reality could be different there, and this is just a fictional story, so just about anything is possible. But logically everything there must have had a beginning, and such complex systems and structures must have had a Maker. Leliana summed that up pretty well.
I think that's all there is to say on the issue since Vampire Damian doesn't seem to want to respond to any of the counter-points I made. Believe it! (talk) 16:11, December 7, 2012 (UTC)
- The Christians started the war that begat the Crusades. Whether one side or the other was eventually to blame, the fact of the matter is that both sides committed horrible atrocities against innocent populations. EzzyD (talk) 16:29, December 7, 2012 (UTC)
- The Crusades were called in response to the Muslim threat. It's similar to how Cailin called on Ferelden to combat the Blight. The Christian cause was a righteous one, and along the way they gained support from various countries. However, some of those who joined up were not of the same righteous character as the Christians, and those people did commit some atrocities. Those people were the Loghain and Rendon to Cailin's army to refer to the same example above. So yes, atrocities were had on both sides, but the righteous side had far less of them and they were due to certain factions within it, not the cause as a whole. Believe it! (talk) 19:21, December 7, 2012 (UTC)
- The Crusades began with Christians and Muslims fighting over Jerusalem. The Muslims had it, the Christians wanted it. Later Crusades had them teaming up with each other to kill pagans, heathens and political enemies. Then there were the Witch Trials. And now we got the Jews and the Muslims fighting over Jerusalem while the Pope hides child molesters behind his golden throne.
@Believe It! - I did respond to your counter-points, albeit indirectly. I said they were mostly invalid. Yet another detailed response seemed unnecessary since you twist words to suit your own purposes. There's no more evidence for the Maker or your god than there is for Zeus, Odin, Amun-Ra, Shiva, Quetzalcoatl, Elgar'nan, Korth, Cthulhu, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Superman, Mickey Mouse or Puff the magic dragon.
For your beliefs on god to become proven facts you would have to prove that A: The being that you call god existed B: The being you call god still exists C: That he is actually a god (this would also require specifying which definition of the word he is) D: That he is the only god E: That he created the entire universe by himself F: That he went on to personally create humans G: That your god loves all humans, even the ones he sentences to an eternity of torment H: That he is omniscient I: That he is omnipotent J: That he is omnipresent K: That he actually spoke to the people who wrote the Bible L: That he is infallible M: That he is somehow good despite all the evil he's responsible for (attacking people with plagues, floods, etc.) N: That he somehow exists outside the space-time continuum...there's probably more but that's 14 good starting points for you.
However for your beliefs on the Maker to become proven facts, all it would require is a few minor retcons at most since they've been intentionally vague on the subject. The Chant and the Bible are incredibly biased. That alone makes them a poor basis for any hypothesis. Gaider's probably the closest thing DA has to a 'Maker' and even he answers to EA. --Vampire Damian (talk) 22:50, December 7, 2012 (UTC)
May I just state this tangent: Believe It! has now reduced my life to nothing, as I have spent my entire life studying sciences and the more I study, the more I am aware that I know next to nothing about the complexity of the universe and the organisms that inhabit it, and he has already encompassed the entire mystery of living things without even attending higher education institution for it. -
16:54, December 7, 2012 (UTC)
- I did nothing but repeat the answer that was written in God's word thousands of years ago. That said, I favor the pursuit of scientific knowledge as well. Believe it! (talk) 19:21, December 7, 2012 (UTC)
- Don't let him get to you. Faith and reason can't coexist. Most of what he says seems to be a result of religious indoctrination, cognitive dissonance and persuasive definition fallacy. Your work is important and while we will probably never know everything, science is the reason we know the Earth isn't flat, that it is billions of years older than our species and that it isn't the center of the universe. It's also how we know gay people aren't abominations, black people aren't cursed and humans share a common ancestor with monkeys. --Vampire Damian (talk) 22:50, December 7, 2012 (UTC)
- People aren't animals? I can't blame him for that statement, I'm not a furry too O_o
Believe... Dude... That's messed up. Are you feeling well? -Algol- (talk) 18:45, December 7, 2012 (UTC)
- What's messed up? Feeling well? What are you talking about Al? Believe it! (talk) 19:21, December 7, 2012 (UTC)
Just to clarify, humans (Member of the genus Homo, species Sapiens Sapiens) are animals, part of the kingdom Animalia. I'm sorry Believe it! but... Blegh. The most simple forms of "life" would have to be self replicating molecules, and as we have never created self replicating molecules we can deduce that it is a rare occurrence. That being said, we have not tried it for very long (50 years just as an estimate, but probably closer to 80) and the natural process took hundreds of millions of years with several molecule species that there is a possibility that no longer exist. Self Replicating Molecules (SRMs) are the most basic description of life and are not particularly complex. Many parts of functioning cells are formed merely by chemical bonds and are very complex, such as the lipids that make our cellular membranes, held together with magnetic bonds. Other aspects of the cells are more complex such as various organelles like mitochondria and chloroplasts for animals and plants respectively, which are separate organisms all together, absorbed and housed within our cells.
To return to my original point, we are far more like other animals than like fungi, far more like plants than like archaea and far more like archaea than like bacteria.
Please, go get an education at a proper university, sit down and talk to the professors and the lab workers. The world is amazing my friend. --124.168.105.146 (talk) 00:05, December 8, 2012 (UTC)Spudmeister
@Vampire Damian I could refute all of what you wrote but it would expand this thread immensely, and this isn't even on topic anyway, so I won't do that. I can only say that what you wrote is mistaken, and you should consult with a Christian pastor at a church to help you find the true path.
@GabrielleduVent What does my statement in the chat have to do with anything?
@-Algol- I don't know what "stuff" you're referring to.
@NoName Like VD, you are historically and scientifically incorrect. I recommend you talk to a Christian pastor or research Creation science to get a better understanding of the issues.
I would also like to state that while we all disagree on some things, I appreciated the discussion and wish everyone well. Believe it! (talk) 15:48, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
Whilst I know that you are wrong about a lot of things, I also enjoyed our conversation/argument and also that we live in a world where you can (mostly) do this. Wish you a fine day mate, @Believe it!
I think a lot of the mythos about the Maker is "true," but I don't think the makers of the game would ever be difinitive on the subject, as that would kill some of the mystery of the world they've created. I think they'll just continue to drop little hints here and there. 99.122.89.227 (talk) 05:53, December 9, 2012 (UTC)
@Believe It! - No thank you, I don't need anything from self-righteous child molesters protected by a former Nazi. If I want answers on issues of science, I'll consult a scientist or look up things on legitimate sciences not pseudosciences. Put the Bible down and pick up a history book. I suggest you get mental help from a qualified, non-Christian psychiatrist to get a better understanding of your problems. The reality of the universe is far greater than any god and it's a shame you can't even seem to fathom that as a possibility. --Vampire Damian (talk) 16:53, December 9, 2012 (UTC)
When i go on a forum i expect the discussion to be topic relevant and about the actual game and for their not to be too people arguing that that their view on the real world is correct that then degenerates into a dumb ass flame war, the whole point of both of your ideas is to co-exist peacefully so why don't you try it instead of being hypocrite? --Halisme (talk) 21:47, December 9, 2012 (UTC)
- @Halisme, Very good point and good question.
This has gotten way out hand. Someone needs to close this forum. -unsigned
- I concur, this has gone on long enough. I recommend locking the thread and ending this crazy discussion now. EzzyD (talk) 08:47, December 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Strange how fictional non existing things can make people mortal enemies - unsigned
- I agree that this has gone on long enough but I think you missed our points entirely. My points were that religion is detrimental to society and logic, that belief is not knowledge, that the existence of the Maker or god can't be proven or disproven based on current evidence and that the Chant and the Bible are more myth than history. Believe It!'s points seemed to be the Maker/god is real and good because the Chant/Bible says so. That being said, hopefully we can drop this now and return to the point of the topic. --Vampire Damian (talk) 20:55, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
The maker I believe is evil as hell. I think the prophecy told by Sandal was talking about The Maker entering the material plane and causing a lot of trouble. I believe that everything said about the maker is a Lie and that magic is a curse. I do not hate the mages, I just believe they are victims in this whole situation. But to answer your question. NO. I do not believe in the maker, but the character I play does. If I chose that to be the case. GreyWolf84 (talk) 01:56, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
For God's sake (pardon the pun), I thought I put an end to this whole sniping at each other about belief/non-belief. @Believe it! The Crusades killed many innocent people. End of story. It may have been started with good intentions, but that does not excuse or exonerate anyone. @Vampire, plenty of religious people are reasonable and have faith. I find your statement about faith and reason not being able to coexists an insult to me personally as a reasonable person and a theist. Incase you haven't realized, I do not go around the country shooting atheists or people who disagree with me. I also find your dismissal of 20 million killed to be callous. Not to mention that there were not enough people at the time of religious wars to reach even 1 billion so billions is a misnomer. My point was that people can kill in with a belief/non-belief like atheism. If I, as a theist, can admit to the culpability of theists and not excuse them, you should be able to admit to the culpability of non-theists. Who killed the most is not a contest.
To reiterate, my main point is that death is killed by intolerance of people being different. It is as old as time and will be affected by the degree of tolerance and humanity we as humans have vs our intolerance and inhumanity. And please, someone, don't go and say "religion/atheism/spirituality/socialism/etc. inherently causes people kill others."
If this forum cannot stick to the in-game discussion, then it should be locked. It annoys me to no end when self-righteous people cast other groups of people as the Great Evil or themselves as the Ultimate Good.
If people can keep their beliefs/non-beliefs at home, fine. If not or someone wants to ask me of my own religion/philosophy, then message me. I will tell you that I just want to be left alone with my beliefs and not have to deal with bigots of any sort.
As for the discussion at hand, Leliana's revival convinces me that there was something supernatural at the Urn, particularly if Wynne is killed as well and not revived. And that opens up another discussion entirely. If given the choice of eternal bliss and returning to the mortal world, I'm not sure which I'd take. --Almostinsane (User talk:Almostinsane) 04:30, December 13, 2012 (UTC)
- I didn't dismiss the 20 million killed I just said it paled in comparison. Also, I'm pretty sure the atheists didn't slaughter religious people for believing whereas the Christians/Muslims did and still do slaughter the atheists/pagans for not believing in their BS. When I spoke of the billions killed by religion I didn't mean just during the Crusades. It still goes on today. There are countries in the Middle East, Africa and Southeast Asia where you can be arrested or executed for not believing in the primary religion of that country. There are portions of some religious doctrines that tell believers to kill non-believers. The Bible (new and old testament) and the Quran say to kill disbelievers/infidels/heathens/blasphemers/apostates/etc.
The Talmud however (far as my research has shown) forbids the killing of gentiles (non-Jews) and the Jews have been victims of much Christian/Muslim persecution as well so I have no problem with them on this issue. It's good that relatively few actually act on this kind of dogma but it doesn't negate the fact that it's still there. Faith is trusting that a belief/idea is a true fact without proof/evidence. Reason is knowing if a belief/idea is a true fact or not based on proof/evidence. Faith is irrational/unreasonable by definition. Like it or not, it won't change the definitions of the words. I don't think your main point (that death is killed by intolerance of people being different) is even a proper sentence. In any case, I agree that as far as this topic goes that we should drop the side-topic and return to the point. --Vampire Damian (talk) 20:55, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
I believe I will have to point out the following. The New Testament says nowhere to kill anyone for not believing in Christianity. As well as in the Old Testament, I have been troubled by the passages you mention, but they point to particular situations and when they are attacked. Not to mention they were written after those situations and the practices were common in the ancient world. As it is, Jews have not killed anyone in 2000 years. Not in the name of God or Judaism anyway and the Talmud does indeed forbid such murder.
As for Southeast Asia, their bigotry does not stem from their religion, which is Buddhism and you'd be hard pressed to find murder encouraged in their writings, but from an anti-colonial attitude that is stoked by groups wishing for control. Their justification for killing people would be they are polluted by foreign religions. For Islamic countries, I would point out they contradict their own verse which says, "Let there be no compulsion in religion."
As it is, for Christianity, much of the Old Covenant was abolished including the part we all find troubling. I will also say that killing heathens as a teaching isn't present in Early Christianity nor modern Christianity.
I will also say that faith isn't something to be mixed with science as it is a different area from the physical world. The proof I find compelling are mostly eyewitness stories and personal experience. I would say that faith cannot be measured by science because it cannot be replicated in the lab. God isn't compelled into action by anyone and thus experimentation.
And I will say that the Communist killings of theists are a significant number and were done using the same arguments you bring against faith, although there may have been other reasons behind it just as the Crusades had other reasons behind it. It is true that religious people were persecuted and killed in the Communist bloc because they presented a challenge to the State. But it was also justified at the time because religious people were seen irrational and past crimes by theists were pushed on them. There was also the reasoning that if they just renounced their faith, they would live, and by not renouncing it, they irrationally chose death. But the Communists were the ones to kill them.
As it is, I've said my peace, so let this continue onto the discussion at hand. I am sorry for taking up so much room. I didn't mean to write so much. Almostinsane (User talk:Almostinsane) 01:17, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
I believe in the maker but I think he is just a powerful demon Edocrack - 127 (User talk:Edocrack - 127) 19:08, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
I personally don't believe in the Maker, but if someone tells me they believe in the Maker, I'll accept their belief and be fine with it. --173.58.251.107 (talk) 03:39, November 21, 2014 (UTC)
If I control the protagonist and can metagame their actions to fulfill the outcome I want with my omniscient knowledge does that make me the Maker? If a character in Dragon Age can become the Maker... would you want them to? [Insert philosoraptor meme](Sports72Xtrm (talk) 04:59, November 21, 2014 (UTC))