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:Personally I thought The Harrowing was a rather nifty idea, It made for a good tutorial as being a mage. From a gameplay standpoint it introduced you to the fade, demons, and the relationship of the templars and mages. It had a nice (albeit obvious) twist at the end there...and lore-wise was a nice explanation as to how a mage "proves" themselves. I am slightly interested in how they go about setting it up... I don't particularly like to jump on the "DA2 sucks" bandwagon either, but as Dorquemada mentioned, theres no denying there was a serious lack of attention to detail that really hurt the atmosphere of the game. In origins with mages, (Uldred being the only exception I can remember) any mage wearing the light blue robes was an apprentice, yellow was a mage (or enchanter) and Red was Senior Enchanter. Visually the game shows there's a hierarchy among the mages. With DA2 Anders tells you how bad it is for mages, and mentions he sees more Tranquil in the Gallows, but the NPC count doesn't increase... there's no visual proof of the oppression he's supposed to be fighting against. It also feels like nearly every mage you encounter who's supposedly being oppressed, turns abomination or blood mage which just tells me the Templars *may* have had reason to suspect them...
 
:Personally I thought The Harrowing was a rather nifty idea, It made for a good tutorial as being a mage. From a gameplay standpoint it introduced you to the fade, demons, and the relationship of the templars and mages. It had a nice (albeit obvious) twist at the end there...and lore-wise was a nice explanation as to how a mage "proves" themselves. I am slightly interested in how they go about setting it up... I don't particularly like to jump on the "DA2 sucks" bandwagon either, but as Dorquemada mentioned, theres no denying there was a serious lack of attention to detail that really hurt the atmosphere of the game. In origins with mages, (Uldred being the only exception I can remember) any mage wearing the light blue robes was an apprentice, yellow was a mage (or enchanter) and Red was Senior Enchanter. Visually the game shows there's a hierarchy among the mages. With DA2 Anders tells you how bad it is for mages, and mentions he sees more Tranquil in the Gallows, but the NPC count doesn't increase... there's no visual proof of the oppression he's supposed to be fighting against. It also feels like nearly every mage you encounter who's supposedly being oppressed, turns abomination or blood mage which just tells me the Templars *may* have had reason to suspect them...
 
[[User:Warden Mage: Ferris|Warden Mage: Ferris]] ([[User talk:Warden Mage: Ferris|talk]]) 23:21, June 3, 2013 (UTC)
 
[[User:Warden Mage: Ferris|Warden Mage: Ferris]] ([[User talk:Warden Mage: Ferris|talk]]) 23:21, June 3, 2013 (UTC)
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: Funny you mentioned "Band of Three", because this very thing is arguably the most egregious example of "Show, don't tell" violation. It gives an extremely important insight into Kirkwall's history - apparently, the city is, like Stephen King's Derry, built over Cthulhu's bedchambers and its life has always been orchestrated by that. This fact is obviously crucial to establishing the character of the city, so it should've been introduced - in the game itself - on Hawke's arrival and further developed throughout all the story. And while it wouldn't have completely salvaged the game's story, at least some things could have been explained by it - majority of mages being partial to blood magic, psychopatic templars (being lyrium addicts, they're sensitive to Fade's fluctuations as well, albeit not as bad as mages) - even pointless things that are there just to pad up gameplay could be explained, like those nightly trash mobs incapable of learning not to attack Hawke's posse for ten years. It ''totally'' must have been in the game.
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: Instead, bits of this story are tucked away in optional sidequests, often hidden in places you wouldn't even search if you didn't know they were there, and players, as they start exploring this generic - if way too sterile and empty for a refugee center - fantasy video game city, are left wondering why after relatively normal Fereldan Circle they are now in a Circle Stanford Experiment. [[User:Dorquemada|Dorquemada]] ([[User talk:Dorquemada|talk]]) 13:56, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Revision as of 13:56, June 4, 2013

Forums: Index > Lore Discussion > Circle mage oppression
Note: This topic has been unedited for 2675 days. It is considered archived - the discussion is over. Do not continue it unless it really needs a response.

So, I'm aware a lot of people are sick of the Mages v Templars sort of discussions. Thats cool, this post wont be for you though, as a fair warning. Also sorry if this gets long...

Anyways; I wanted to hear some feedback from other people, even if you didn't play a mage character. When I played Origins the first time, I understood the inherent rules of being a mage. The world fears/hates you, you're stuck in a tower and not allowed to leave, Templars will watch you every second, and before you can be considered "safe" you're to be thrown to the wolves (or demon rather) in order to pass a test, or get a magic lobotomy. At first I kinda shrugged it off...Rather I thought it was kinda cool to be considered so dangerous they've effectively removed you from society to practice your craft with other mages. ("You mean because I set this boy on fire, you're going to send me to a tower to learn how to set more things on fire? sign me up") This is when the Lore Kicks in, and says "Well, conditions are bad... Templars may verbally threaten you... You never really hit your full potential as a mage, you're just kinda taught basics.." etc etc. From a DA:O standpoint, I never once felt mages were oppressed. There's Apprentices in the market, mages hanging out in front of "Wonders of Thedas" and without additional reasoning, when Wynne asks to leave they just say "sure". So to me It seemed you could just be a good mage, and the "downside" of having to stay at the tower becomes meaningless. In DA2 they still mention Meredith "squeezing the mages" but that doesn't mean anything to me... it isn't until "The tranquil solution" I felt they were oppressed, but even that was going against what Meredith even wanted. This is probably just a case of Lore vs. gameplay, and I know things were supposedly different in the Ferelden Circle, But I've just never felt oppressed while playing as a mage. I was a proud Circle Mage Aequitarian. The Templars served a purpose in the tower. Am I missing huge plot points here? (as its been a while since I've done a play-through) Or does anyone else feel they could have done a bit better job conveying Mage "oppression"? Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 23:33, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

There are a few comments made during party chatter in DA2. Anders mentions to Sebastian that Templars beat and rape mages in the circle, though it did not happen to him Alain will mention that letters of his are being burned rather than sens and that Karras has been in his chamber and threatened Tranquility on Alain if he says anything. So there are definitely abuses going on. 204.237.81.250 (talk) 03:42, June 1, 2013 (UTC)


What are you after? You wrote this to hear again from that it's a propaganda? It is and magic this topic only proobes your obsession on mage-templar topic. With same topic from same area of interest the forum becomes stagnat because of lack of new topics.78.9.0.93 (talk) 08:09, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

As stated before, if you're tired of the mage/templar talk, this isnt for you. As that is the current state of the lore/games/books, that's as relevant as we can get. And since 'propaganda' seems to be the only word you know, I'm going to go ahead and skip over that part. What I am after is information. The Lore speaks a great deal of the mage oppression that I felt wasn't well represented in the games. That's a bit miss-leading. The Lore tells you things are bad for city elves, and in the origin story you're shown just how bad it can be. Later, you're shown how much worse it could get. In DA2 you're told all mages are dangerous, nearly every one you meet is a blood mage. The game hands you a personal reason for hating mages by having one kill your mother, the one mage you save kidnaps your sibling and tries to kill you. There is a lot (i feel) the games do with mages that feels bias. From a design standpoint, story, lore, and gameplay. I wanted additional information on the "why" of this revolution, as it feels it was mishandled with conflicting information.Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 16:21, June 1, 2013 (UTC)
Your "why" is part of the bigger problem called "Dragon Age 2". Among its faults, the one stands out quite noticeably when compared to "Origins" - that is, violation of "Show, don't tell" rule, which is especially important for a medium as visually dependent as a video game. In "Origins", as you stalk through creepy, haunted by demons Tower, encountering fine entities like Sloth demon and thinking it all was started by one man, it helps you understand that, maybe, those dangerous dudes and dudettes better stay where they can be easily isolated in case of emergency. The Templars mostly do their job, and their Commander understands that cooperating with people who can set everything on fire is smarter than oppressing them, and it makes sense - after all, it started with mages sort of choosing isolation themselves if I remember lore correctly. Of course, there are bad apples on the both sides, but nothing extreme. Trusted mages can move more or less freely, untrusted are very quietly lobotomized, there are factions, there are communication between the Towers - in short, everything's more or less sensible.
Now, enter "Dragon Age 2", where everything serves the one purpose - to make stuff Something Awesome™! Of course lore gets thrown out of the window, because I imagine there were no time to work on nuances, so story's delivery is ham-fisted up to eleven. OMG Templars are all genocidal maniacs and rapists!!! But OMG all mages are blood-crazy demon summoners so dem Templars are right, amirite???? Voila, insta-dark'n'gritty "dark" fantasy! Add the complete disconnect between the story and game's mechanics, and you have the clusterfuck that makes no sense whatsoever, but is flashy, melodramatic and chock-full of frenzied akshun.
In short - don't overthink anything that happened in DA2, because the reason of anything in it is "just because". Also, ignore 78.9.0.93, he seems to believe every topic regarding mages is made with the sole purpose to piss him off. Dorquemada (talk) 18:37, June 1, 2013 (UTC)
^Full of win, as (almost) always :) There is one thing I disagree with, though. Do NOT ignore the "anonymous" Dalish Fan. I like when he/she/it replies back. -Algol- (talk) 18:44, June 1, 2013 (UTC)
@Dorquemada expertly said. I think I even caught myself a few times overusing DA2 when discussing Mage oppression. Aside from the tranquil-reverse coverup thing from the books, I couldn't really see where pre-DA2 Anders was coming from. But as said, expertly put, and I thank you for the info. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 21:38, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

The propaganda-obsessed-anon (or 'Dalish Fan', as Algol has dubbed him... may I ask why?) clearly missed the part in the first sentence of the post that said that this thread is not for you if you are sick of the mage-Templar discussions. But yeah, you can't ignore him/her... the resolving discussions never fail to be entertaining.

On topic, the OP raised some good points - which I never had given much thought. The Mage-Templar relationship in Ferelden seemed quite peaceful, though obviously some felt the 'slavery' of the circle, wasn't for them. Morrigan viewed the way the mages had submitted with distain, and Anders (in Awakening) obviously was opposed to the circle. So I think the issues were there, though in Ferelden Mages were given far more freedom. We know they attended war councils with King Calin - were the Chantry clearly didn't approve, Alistair and Anora offer Wynne a place at court.

Where as Kirkwall is a Templar stronghold. They overthrew the previous regime, and put the Viscount in power. When he died, they took the power for themselves. Meredith wasn't unreasonable though, she didn't allow the Tranquil Solution to happen for example. Morrigan did allude to a big change coming in Witch Hunt, so I guess I did see it coming. I always sided with the Mages, but I never saw where Anders was coming from - and I always killed him. I agree that DA2 could have set up the events for DA3 better, I somehow imagine outside of Orlais most circles being like the Ferleden circle, so one would have thought the Cumberland circle or Antivan circles, or what ever, wouldn't be so quick to rise up in support of there oppressed brethren in Kirkwall, if they had fairly amicable relations with their own Templars. Alexsau1991 (talk page) 20px 22:09, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

"or 'Dalish Fan', as Algol has dubbed him... may I ask why?"
You wound me :) 'Tis was not me who dubbed him (?) so, the "anon" used to "sign" his posts by "Just call me Dalish Fan" a bit earlier, so I just oblige him. -Algol- (talk) 22:45, June 1, 2013 (UTC)
Ah, makes sense! Good to know... far easier than referring to him/her as the propaganda-obsessed-anon. :) Alexsau1991 (talk page) 20px 22:56, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

I'll write wherever I want and nobody can forbid me this, nor Alexsau1991, nor Alogol, nor even Warden Mage: Ferris. You can only deleate my text, but you mustn't. If you do this, you'll get punished and I can restore it every time. So many people discuss about their obsessive hatred to Chantry even on forums which aren't about them, so can do those sick about mage-templar mess, revolution of casteless and qunari vs tevinter are examples of going off topic. I won't submit to you and you won't break my will. I do not listen to anyone and nobody can change my mind. I'm so stuborn that you'll get tired of me rather than change my mind.78.8.102.231 (talk) 23:03, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

The irony here now being you're the only one going off topic...and bringing up the chantry at all... For the record as of current lore; Lord Seeker Lambert van Reeves submitted a letter to the Chantry breaking the Nevarran Accord. Effectively ending chantry rule over (most of) the Templars. So where is it you see anti-chantry propaganda? As a side note, I have no intention to delete your posts, it's far more amusing to watch you dance, and throw around "big words" you don't know the full meaning to, out of context...Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 23:50, June 1, 2013 (UTC)
You hypocryte, you just did the same.62.87.191.234 (talk) 07:25, June 2, 2013 (UTC)
"I do not listen to anyone and nobody can change my mind"
We already got that, thanks XD
On topic: I actually profoundly disagree with Alexsau's last post. If Dalish Fan allows us to continue throwing bits of propaganda at each other, I can even try to explain why XD -Algol- (talk) 00:27, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

This thread should get interesting in a comical way so I'll contribute...Dorque basically nailed it for me, and having just finished a playthough of DA2 (my second, and it only took 2 and a half years to finish!), the main problems we have had here are all related directly to oversimplification. The entire game really, to include the story. Mage Templar actually makes some sense, even taking where we started with Wardens, darkpsawn and old gods into it. Magic is the overriding theme here, at least in some form, be it use of magic, the abuse of magic and mages as discussed here, or history of, or whatever. So I can see the intended progression, but it was so poorly presented, and actually poorly written, that we are left with massive confusion and contradiction in far to many places. The mage oppression is just one, and it is a show, don't tell issue. I've heard the arguments on the short dev cycle being the reason, but to be honest...I'm leaning much more towards a lack of talent and basic inattention to simple detail as being the main culprit here. I'll be interested to see if they can write themselves out of the corner they've put themselves into. Mage oppression, and it's presentation, is just one of many issues. The Grey Unknown (talk) 13:34, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

On the topic of details, Why exactly are they looking for The Warden/Hawke as a means to end the conflict? I can understand Hawke to an extent... but given the ending has you (kind of) picking sides, whose to say he wouldn't just instigate the conflict further? The Warden makes no sense at all...(maybe thats just me) The war doesn't seem like something wardens would concern themselves with, even warden mages. Moreso you run into the same problem, what information are they basing this off where the Hero of Ferelden would swoop down (insert Alistair joke here) and end the conflict? conscript them all? Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 19:40, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

I think the reason they're looking for The Warden is because he/she is a hero that many people would rally behind, as for Hawke, perhaps they think if they denounced the conflict it might cause the side they chose to think again. --Halisme (talk) 19:52, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

That is an excellent point,I forgot how powerful morale could be. Wouldn't it be better to (lets say..) seek the King of Ferelden? (I know it's not in everyone's endings.. but just hear me out..) a former Templar, turned warden/king who is known to be sympathetic towards the plight of mages. If nothing else He may have been able to grant refuge and demand a ceasefire within his lands. That would at the very least stall for time to allow some sort of peace treaty to be drawn up. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 20:05, June 2, 2013 (UTC)
A Ferelden safe haven would only result in an Orlesian invasion though. And the Chantry, if you'll recall, is actually an Orlesian invention. That has something to do with all this too, and will likely play into it at some point. As to the importance of the warden, Leilana is the key to that. She was included for a reason. But short of canonizing a playthrough, I can't really say just how as there are many possibilities and variables. Sheer survival after slaying the archdemon is perhaps the best, with a connection to Morrigan and the baby being key in some manner, but seeing as how that is not "canon" (yet) there would have to be other reasons also. Morale, while key, isn't a big enough reason. It will tie back to magic. Magic is the overall theme here. Not the mages themselves, or their freedom, but rather the simple existence of it, how that came to pass, and what has been done with it so far. It has directed most everything important in this story to date. The Grey Unknown (talk) 20:24, June 2, 2013 (UTC)
Isn't Orlais currently in their own civil war? if that's the case they wouldn't have much of a position or the resources to invade Ferelden, even if it was to try and regain the mages. (I could be wrong in this tho..) Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 20:37, June 2, 2013 (UTC)
Not really sure either. I know there is conflict, but not sure about civil war. Regaining Ferelden with chantry support would be pretty unifying though. It would be smarter for Ferelden not to get involved. The Grey Unknown (talk) 20:39, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Well not all Templars are as reasonable and merciful as the ones in Origins, for the typical and zealous ones often go to great lengths in carrying out their so call "sacred duty" in suppressing the use of magic at any cost, usually disregarding moral concerns, for mages does not deserve one and believing mages are far more different than them or any other living beings. This where the abuses starts, not aware that their talents for magic is the only thing which makes them unique among other things. But the Templars seem determine to making the lives of mages a miserable one- which ends in bitter turmoil like the ones in the games --Seeking Seer, (The Deceiver's Bane) 21:44, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that the differences between Feraldon and Kirkwall are entirely to do with DA2 sucking - I'm frankly as bored with people talking about DA2 sucking as some are with Mage/templar thing - it had its faults but I'm on my third play-through it's not that bad. Kirkwall is shown through the Legacy DLC and the notes of 'The Band of Three' and the idol to be a cursed place with a weak veil further weakend by the activities of Teveinter Magtisters- see thread about it not being worth saving - add over-crowding from refugees and a bunch of 'guests'with strange customs and an ill-concealed contempt for the place plus agendas that they aren't forthcoming about revealing and you have a stew that can breed all sorts of craziness - you are shown with Evelina and Huron how good people can be driven mad by it. I think Anders was just someone who didn't like be confined rather than the Feraldon circle being bad - although the Harrowing is wrong or just done wrongly - my mage warden had to swing deals with demons just to survive it. The circles ought to be places of learning and teaching and of examining mages when young to see who needs watching further and further guidance to stop them falling prey to demons - but with Jowan and Connor you got a sense of the unjustice of ripping children away from their familites just because they had magical talent even in a 'nice' circle. However you need templars to deal with mages who get out of control - the abuses that Fenris chroncles are testement to that. You need to prevent the abuses of both mages and templars - not any easy task.

193.60.237.129 (talk) 09:50, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Personally I thought The Harrowing was a rather nifty idea, It made for a good tutorial as being a mage. From a gameplay standpoint it introduced you to the fade, demons, and the relationship of the templars and mages. It had a nice (albeit obvious) twist at the end there...and lore-wise was a nice explanation as to how a mage "proves" themselves. I am slightly interested in how they go about setting it up... I don't particularly like to jump on the "DA2 sucks" bandwagon either, but as Dorquemada mentioned, theres no denying there was a serious lack of attention to detail that really hurt the atmosphere of the game. In origins with mages, (Uldred being the only exception I can remember) any mage wearing the light blue robes was an apprentice, yellow was a mage (or enchanter) and Red was Senior Enchanter. Visually the game shows there's a hierarchy among the mages. With DA2 Anders tells you how bad it is for mages, and mentions he sees more Tranquil in the Gallows, but the NPC count doesn't increase... there's no visual proof of the oppression he's supposed to be fighting against. It also feels like nearly every mage you encounter who's supposedly being oppressed, turns abomination or blood mage which just tells me the Templars *may* have had reason to suspect them...

Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 23:21, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Funny you mentioned "Band of Three", because this very thing is arguably the most egregious example of "Show, don't tell" violation. It gives an extremely important insight into Kirkwall's history - apparently, the city is, like Stephen King's Derry, built over Cthulhu's bedchambers and its life has always been orchestrated by that. This fact is obviously crucial to establishing the character of the city, so it should've been introduced - in the game itself - on Hawke's arrival and further developed throughout all the story. And while it wouldn't have completely salvaged the game's story, at least some things could have been explained by it - majority of mages being partial to blood magic, psychopatic templars (being lyrium addicts, they're sensitive to Fade's fluctuations as well, albeit not as bad as mages) - even pointless things that are there just to pad up gameplay could be explained, like those nightly trash mobs incapable of learning not to attack Hawke's posse for ten years. It totally must have been in the game.
Instead, bits of this story are tucked away in optional sidequests, often hidden in places you wouldn't even search if you didn't know they were there, and players, as they start exploring this generic - if way too sterile and empty for a refugee center - fantasy video game city, are left wondering why after relatively normal Fereldan Circle they are now in a Circle Stanford Experiment. Dorquemada (talk) 13:56, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
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