Forum:Circle mage oppression

Forums: Index > Lore DiscussionCircle mage oppression

Note: This topic has been unedited for 3968 days. It is considered archived - the discussion is over. Do not continue it unless it really needs a response.

So, I'm aware a lot of people are sick of the Mages v Templars sort of discussions. Thats cool, this post wont be for you though, as a fair warning. Also sorry if this gets long...

Anyways; I wanted to hear some feedback from other people, even if you didn't play a mage character. When I played Origins the first time, I understood the inherent rules of being a mage. The world fears/hates you, you're stuck in a tower and not allowed to leave, Templars will watch you every second, and before you can be considered "safe" you're to be thrown to the wolves (or demon rather) in order to pass a test, or get a magic lobotomy. At first I kinda shrugged it off...Rather I thought it was kinda cool to be considered so dangerous they've effectively removed you from society to practice your craft with other mages. ("You mean because I set this boy on fire, you're going to send me to a tower to learn how to set more things on fire? sign me up") This is when the Lore Kicks in, and says "Well, conditions are bad... Templars may verbally threaten you... You never really hit your full potential as a mage, you're just kinda taught basics.." etc etc. From a DA:O standpoint, I never once felt mages were oppressed. There's Apprentices in the market, mages hanging out in front of "Wonders of Thedas" and without additional reasoning, when Wynne asks to leave they just say "sure". So to me It seemed you could just be a good mage, and the "downside" of having to stay at the tower becomes meaningless. In DA2 they still mention Meredith "squeezing the mages" but that doesn't mean anything to me... it isn't until "The tranquil solution" I felt they were oppressed, but even that was going against what Meredith even wanted. This is probably just a case of Lore vs. gameplay, and I know things were supposedly different in the Ferelden Circle, But I've just never felt oppressed while playing as a mage. I was a proud Circle Mage Aequitarian. The Templars served a purpose in the tower. Am I missing huge plot points here? (as its been a while since I've done a play-through) Or does anyone else feel they could have done a bit better job conveying Mage "oppression"? Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 23:33, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

There are a few comments made during party chatter in DA2. Anders mentions to Sebastian that Templars beat and rape mages in the circle, though it did not happen to him Alain will mention that letters of his are being burned rather than sens and that Karras has been in his chamber and threatened Tranquility on Alain if he says anything. So there are definitely abuses going on. 204.237.81.250 (talk) 03:42, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

What are you after? You wrote this to hear again from that it's a propaganda? It is and magic this topic only proobes your obsession on mage-templar topic. With same topic from same area of interest the forum becomes stagnat because of lack of new topics.78.9.0.93 (talk) 08:09, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

As stated before, if you're tired of the mage/templar talk, this isnt for you. As that is the current state of the lore/games/books, that's as relevant as we can get. And since 'propaganda' seems to be the only word you know, I'm going to go ahead and skip over that part. What I am after is information. The Lore speaks a great deal of the mage oppression that I felt wasn't well represented in the games. That's a bit miss-leading. The Lore tells you things are bad for city elves, and in the origin story you're shown just how bad it can be. Later, you're shown how much worse it could get. In DA2 you're told all mages are dangerous, nearly every one you meet is a blood mage. The game hands you a personal reason for hating mages by having one kill your mother, the one mage you save kidnaps your sibling and tries to kill you. There is a lot (i feel) the games do with mages that feels bias. From a design standpoint, story, lore, and gameplay. I wanted additional information on the "why" of this revolution, as it feels it was mishandled with conflicting information.Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 16:21, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

Your "why" is part of the bigger problem called "Dragon Age 2". Among its faults, the one stands out quite noticeably when compared to "Origins" - that is, violation of "Show, don't tell" rule, which is especially important for a medium as visually dependent as a video game. In "Origins", as you stalk through creepy, haunted by demons Tower, encountering fine entities like Sloth demon and thinking it all was started by one man, it helps you understand that, maybe, those dangerous dudes and dudettes better stay where they can be easily isolated in case of emergency. The Templars mostly do their job, and their Commander understands that cooperating with people who can set everything on fire is smarter than oppressing them, and it makes sense - after all, it started with mages sort of choosing isolation themselves if I remember lore correctly. Of course, there are bad apples on the both sides, but nothing extreme. Trusted mages can move more or less freely, untrusted are very quietly lobotomized, there are factions, there are communication between the Towers - in short, everything's more or less sensible.

Now, enter "Dragon Age 2", where everything serves the one purpose - to make stuff Something Awesome™! Of course lore gets thrown out of the window, because I imagine there were no time to work on nuances, so story's delivery is ham-fisted up to eleven. OMG Templars are all genocidal maniacs and rapists!!! But OMG all mages are blood-crazy demon summoners so dem Templars are right, amirite???? Voila, insta-dark'n'gritty "dark" fantasy! Add the complete disconnect between the story and game's mechanics, and you have the clusterfuck that makes no sense whatsoever, but is flashy, melodramatic and chock-full of frenzied akshun.

In short - don't overthink anything that happened in DA2, because the reason of anything in it is "just because". Also, ignore 78.9.0.93, he seems to believe every topic regarding mages is made with the sole purpose to piss him off. Dorquemada (talk) 18:37, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

^Full of win, as (almost) always :) There is one thing I disagree with, though. Do NOT ignore the "anonymous" Dalish Fan. I like when he/she/it replies back. -Algol- (talk) 18:44, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

@Dorquemada expertly said. I think I even caught myself a few times overusing DA2 when discussing Mage oppression. Aside from the tranquil-reverse coverup thing from the books, I couldn't really see where pre-DA2 Anders was coming from. But as said, expertly put, and I thank you for the info. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 21:38, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

The propaganda-obsessed-anon (or 'Dalish Fan', as Algol has dubbed him... may I ask why?) clearly missed the part in the first sentence of the post that said that this thread is not for you if you are sick of the mage-Templar discussions. But yeah, you can't ignore him/her... the resolving discussions never fail to be entertaining.

On topic, the OP raised some good points - which I never had given much thought. The Mage-Templar relationship in Ferelden seemed quite peaceful, though obviously some felt the 'slavery' of the circle, wasn't for them. Morrigan viewed the way the mages had submitted with distain, and Anders (in Awakening) obviously was opposed to the circle. So I think the issues were there, though in Ferelden Mages were given far more freedom. We know they attended war councils with King Calin - were the Chantry clearly didn't approve, Alistair and Anora offer Wynne a place at court.

Where as Kirkwall is a Templar stronghold. They overthrew the previous regime, and put the Viscount in power. When he died, they took the power for themselves. Meredith wasn't unreasonable though, she didn't allow the Tranquil Solution to happen for example. Morrigan did allude to a big change coming in Witch Hunt, so I guess I did see it coming. I always sided with the Mages, but I never saw where Anders was coming from - and I always killed him. I agree that DA2 could have set up the events for DA3 better, I somehow imagine outside of Orlais most circles being like the Ferleden circle, so one would have thought the Cumberland circle or Antivan circles, or what ever, wouldn't be so quick to rise up in support of there oppressed brethren in Kirkwall, if they had fairly amicable relations with their own Templars. Alexsau1991 ^{(talk page)} File:Goddammit.svg 22:09, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

"or 'Dalish Fan', as Algol has dubbed him... may I ask why?"

You wound me :) 'Tis was not me who dubbed him (?) so, the "anon" used to "sign" his posts by "Just call me Dalish Fan" a bit earlier, so I just oblige him. -Algol- (talk) 22:45, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

Ah, makes sense! Good to know... far easier than referring to him/her as the propaganda-obsessed-anon. :) Alexsau1991 ^{(talk page)} File:Goddammit.svg 22:56, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

I'll write wherever I want and nobody can forbid me this, nor Alexsau1991, nor Alogol, nor even Warden Mage: Ferris. You can only deleate my text, but you mustn't. If you do this, you'll get punished and I can restore it every time. So many people discuss about their obsessive hatred to Chantry even on forums which aren't about them, so can do those sick about mage-templar mess, revolution of casteless and qunari vs tevinter are examples of going off topic. I won't submit to you and you won't break my will. I do not listen to anyone and nobody can change my mind. I'm so stuborn that you'll get tired of me rather than change my mind.78.8.102.231 (talk) 23:03, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

The irony here now being you're the only one going off topic...and bringing up the chantry at all... For the record as of current lore; Lord Seeker Lambert van Reeves submitted a letter to the Chantry breaking the Nevarran Accord. Effectively ending chantry rule over (most of) the Templars. So where is it you see anti-chantry propaganda? As a side note, I have no intention to delete your posts, it's far more amusing to watch you dance, and throw around "big words" you don't know the full meaning to, out of context...Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 23:50, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

You hypocryte, you just did the same.62.87.191.234 (talk) 07:25, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

"I do not listen to anyone and nobody can change my mind"

We already got that, thanks XD

On topic: I actually profoundly disagree with Alexsau's last post. If Dalish Fan allows us to continue throwing bits of propaganda at each other, I can even try to explain why XD -Algol- (talk) 00:27, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

This thread should get interesting in a comical way so I'll contribute...Dorque basically nailed it for me, and having just finished a playthough of DA2 (my second, and it only took 2 and a half years to finish!), the main problems we have had here are all related directly to oversimplification. The entire game really, to include the story. Mage Templar actually makes some sense, even taking where we started with Wardens, darkpsawn and old gods into it. Magic is the overriding theme here, at least in some form, be it use of magic, the abuse of magic and mages as discussed here, or history of, or whatever. So I can see the intended progression, but it was so poorly presented, and actually poorly written, that we are left with massive confusion and contradiction in far to many places. The mage oppression is just one, and it is a show, don't tell issue. I've heard the arguments on the short dev cycle being the reason, but to be honest...I'm leaning much more towards a lack of talent and basic inattention to simple detail as being the main culprit here. I'll be interested to see if they can write themselves out of the corner they've put themselves into. Mage oppression, and it's presentation, is just one of many issues. The Grey Unknown (talk) 13:34, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

On the topic of details, Why exactly are they looking for The Warden/Hawke as a means to end the conflict? I can understand Hawke to an extent... but given the ending has you (kind of) picking sides, whose to say he wouldn't just instigate the conflict further? The Warden makes no sense at all...(maybe thats just me) The war doesn't seem like something wardens would concern themselves with, even warden mages. Moreso you run into the same problem, what information are they basing this off where the Hero of Ferelden would swoop down (insert Alistair joke here) and end the conflict? conscript them all? Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 19:40, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

I think the reason they're looking for The Warden is because he/she is a hero that many people would rally behind, as for Hawke, perhaps they think if they denounced the conflict it might cause the side they chose to think again. --Halisme (talk) 19:52, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

That is an excellent point,I forgot how powerful morale could be. Wouldn't it be better to (lets say..) seek the King of Ferelden? (I know it's not in everyone's endings.. but just hear me out..) a former Templar, turned warden/king who is known to be sympathetic towards the plight of mages. If nothing else He may have been able to grant refuge and demand a ceasefire within his lands. That would at the very least stall for time to allow some sort of peace treaty to be drawn up. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 20:05, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

A Ferelden safe haven would only result in an Orlesian invasion though. And the Chantry, if you'll recall, is actually an Orlesian invention. That has something to do with all this too, and will likely play into it at some point. As to the importance of the warden, Leilana is the key to that. She was included for a reason. But short of canonizing a playthrough, I can't really say just how as there are many possibilities and variables. Sheer survival after slaying the archdemon is perhaps the best, with a connection to Morrigan and the baby being key in some manner, but seeing as how that is not "canon" (yet) there would have to be other reasons also. Morale, while key, isn't a big enough reason. It will tie back to magic. Magic is the overall theme here. Not the mages themselves, or their freedom, but rather the simple existence of it, how that came to pass, and what has been done with it so far. It has directed most everything important in this story to date. The Grey Unknown (talk) 20:24, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Isn't Orlais currently in their own civil war? if that's the case they wouldn't have much of a position or the resources to invade Ferelden, even if it was to try and regain the mages. (I could be wrong in this tho..) Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 20:37, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Not really sure either. I know there is conflict, but not sure about civil war. Regaining Ferelden with chantry support would be pretty unifying though. It would be smarter for Ferelden not to get involved. The Grey Unknown (talk) 20:39, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Well not all Templars are as reasonable and merciful as the ones in Origins, for the typical and zealous ones often go to great lengths in carrying out their so call "sacred duty" in suppressing the use of magic at any cost, usually disregarding moral concerns, for mages does not deserve one and believing mages are far more different than them or any other living beings. This where the abuses starts, not aware that their talents for magic is the only thing which makes them unique among other things. But the Templars seem determine to making the lives of mages a miserable one- which ends in bitter turmoil like the ones in the games --Seeking Seer, (The Deceiver's Bane) 21:44, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that the differences between Feraldon and Kirkwall are entirely to do with DA2 sucking - I'm frankly as bored with people talking about DA2 sucking as some are with Mage/templar thing - it had its faults but I'm on my third play-through it's not that bad. Kirkwall is shown through the Legacy DLC and the notes of 'The Band of Three' and the idol to be a cursed place with a weak veil further weakend by the activities of Teveinter Magtisters- see thread about it not being worth saving - add over-crowding from refugees and a bunch of 'guests'with strange customs and an ill-concealed contempt for the place plus agendas that they aren't forthcoming about revealing and you have a stew that can breed all sorts of craziness - you are shown with Evelina and Huron how good people can be driven mad by it. I think Anders was just someone who didn't like be confined rather than the Feraldon circle being bad - although the Harrowing is wrong or just done wrongly - my mage warden had to swing deals with demons just to survive it. The circles ought to be places of learning and teaching and of examining mages when young to see who needs watching further and further guidance to stop them falling prey to demons - but with Jowan and Connor you got a sense of the unjustice of ripping children away from their familites just because they had magical talent even in a 'nice' circle. However you need templars to deal with mages who get out of control - the abuses that Fenris chroncles are testement to that. You need to prevent the abuses of both mages and templars - not any easy task.

193.60.237.129 (talk) 09:50, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Personally I thought The Harrowing was a rather nifty idea, It made for a good tutorial as being a mage. From a gameplay standpoint it introduced you to the fade, demons, and the relationship of the templars and mages. It had a nice (albeit obvious) twist at the end there...and lore-wise was a nice explanation as to how a mage "proves" themselves. I am slightly interested in how they go about setting it up... I don't particularly like to jump on the "DA2 sucks" bandwagon either, but as Dorquemada mentioned, theres no denying there was a serious lack of attention to detail that really hurt the atmosphere of the game. In origins with mages, (Uldred being the only exception I can remember) any mage wearing the light blue robes was an apprentice, yellow was a mage (or enchanter) and Red was Senior Enchanter. Visually the game shows there's a hierarchy among the mages. With DA2 Anders tells you how bad it is for mages, and mentions he sees more Tranquil in the Gallows, but the NPC count doesn't increase... there's no visual proof of the oppression he's supposed to be fighting against. It also feels like nearly every mage you encounter who's supposedly being oppressed, turns abomination or blood mage which just tells me the Templars *may* have had reason to suspect them...

Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 23:21, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Funny you mentioned "Band of Three", because this very thing is arguably the most egregious example of "Show, don't tell" violation. It gives an extremely important insight into Kirkwall's history - apparently, the city is, like Stephen King's Derry, built over Cthulhu's bedchambers and its life has always been orchestrated by that. This fact is obviously crucial to establishing the character of the city, so it should've been introduced - in the game itself - on Hawke's arrival and further developed throughout all the story. And while it wouldn't have completely salvaged the game's story, at least some things could have been explained by it - majority of mages being partial to blood magic, psychopatic templars (being lyrium addicts, they're sensitive to Fade's fluctuations as well, albeit not as bad as mages) - even pointless things that are there just to pad up gameplay could be explained, like those nightly trash mobs incapable of learning not to attack Hawke's posse for ten years. It totally must have been in the game.

Instead, bits of this story are tucked away in optional sidequests, often hidden in places you wouldn't even search if you didn't know they were there, and players, as they start exploring this generic - if way too sterile and empty for a refugee center - fantasy video game city, are left wondering why after relatively normal Fereldan Circle they are now in a Circle Stanford Experiment. Dorquemada (talk) 13:56, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

I guess I see it differently, but then again I'm looking at different details. Yes a mage can be 'permitted' to leave the Tower, but only for short periods of time, and they must have a written note of permission or be in the care of someone the Templars trust. If a mage is horrible at magic, they're automatically slated for Tranquility or they're killed, no consideration given to just training them enough to not burn their homes down and letting them live their lives. Also, Anders came to the Circle a good deal older than most, so he doesn't see it through the framework of someone raised from early childhood on to tolerate some things. Tranquility is also being used in some cases to deal with mages that are too 'powerful' regardless of whether or not they're actually dangerous. If you're playing as a mage Hawke in DA2, it can be pointed out both you and your sister are well past the age of Harrowing and still dealing just fine with your magics and living out in normal society. So they're taken from their parents at an extremely early age usually, and as Anders points out they threaten parents who don't want to give up their children, locked away from other people where they're constantly told that it was for their own good and that they cannot permanently leave. There's hints throughout both games that some Mothers of the Chantry tell young mages that their magic is a sign that they're hated by the Maker, they have to live in constant fear that they will be possessed, deemed too weak and made Tranquil, or that they will not pass the Harrowing and disappear. The ones that are too intelligent and questioning are often culled out, leaving only adequate ones. Asunder reveals that there was basically a careful, subtle genocide of the mages going on by the Templars. Morrigan points out that the Templars have gone out of their way to try to exterminate entire schools of magic besides Blood. After all, how do you keep a Shapeshift mage who will just turn into a bird and fly away locked up in a tower? Or turn into some other animal and get out? You don't, you either kill them or Tranquilize them. They teach them not to question what's done to them or with them, not to form attachments to others or trust that they can honestly tell someone how they feel. And while the mages bartered for something other than being used as lamp lighters and dusters of altars, the Templars were only supposed to watch them, not take over the Circles and be a part of how they were run or be right behind the mages at every moment.

Also, I've gotten the sense that the Ferelden Circle was both extremely tolerant and lenient with its mages. The Amell Warden was born in Kirkwall and by all rights should have been raised in the Gallows, but he/she is sent elsewhere instead. Also, if you read the Lore about Kirkwall, it's stated that the area has a lot of problems. People run mad, twice as many mages fail to Harrow or turn to blood magic later on as any other Circle, the Lore around the Band of Three indicates that the Veil around Kirkwall is so full of holes it might as well not be there, and there are two, count them TWO, high level demons bound in that city. Add in the fact that the Warden prison that housed Corypheus is in the same section of the Free Marches, and it's stated that he's capable of interfering with mages that carry the Taint, it's not too far-fetched to think that he can influence normal mages as well. This is not a place that it was a bright idea to form and house a Circle. If the canary keeps dying in the coal mine, then you want to find a new coal mine. Meredith was also out of control even before she got ahold of the lyrium idol. She was flouting Chantry law by making mages Tranquil who had passed their Harrowings, she was taking away their rights and liberties, and Elthina as the voice of the Chantry who is supposed to be making sure that the Templars are not abusing their charges and their roles did nothing. Meredith had also asked for the Rite of Annulment from Elthina, and was trying to go over her head. Yes, she rejected Alrik's Tranquil Solution, but how much of that was because Elthina would never agree to it? Meredith should not have been in control of the Templars, even Cullen who'd seen some of the worst that comes from letting a manipulative mage get in control was no longer singing her praises and felt she was going too far.

The long and short of it is that there's plenty of proof that mages can be integrated into normal society without having to isolate them from it. Laws can be passed to make death or Tranquility acceptable for mages who are found guilty of breaking certain laws and there are items that can be forged to bind magic for lesser crimes. That they are kept isolated by the word of a religious leader and a group of heavily armed followers is oppression, no matter how pretty and gilded the cage. That the same leader was failing to see that her commander of her knights was instigating a culling and genocide against her other 'charges' makes it worse. Both sides have some good points, but both have bad points as well. Anders knew what he was doing was forcing the Templars hands, knew he was going to have to kill innocents to do so, and chose to accept whatever Hawke's judgement would be. To kill him creates a martyr for the mages and a symbolic figure similar to Andraste. To let him live and fight by your side creates a general and gives him a chance to try to atone for what he had to do. In war, not all who need to die deserve to die, but Anders at least still feels and mourns what he had to do. *Looks at the amount written. Sighs.* Oh boy, I didn't intend to say that much. Let's just leave it at I did and do feel the oppression part when I play as a mage character before I write a treatise on it. Lilymoncat (talk) 00:33, June 6, 2013 (UTC)lilymoncat

Excellent points made, but I do have some questions/comments on some of the writings here. When you had mentioned the process of a mage leaving the tower, where was that info obtained? I simply don't remember ever reading about guidelines such as needing an escort or a time limit. Although I agree they give the feeling of "you pass, or you're made tranquil" I've never heard of them Tranquiling out a mage deemed "too powerful". Anders in awakening mentions escaping from the tower 7 times, and the worst that was done to him was solitary confinement. He did however lead on to say they may have eventually branded him apostate, and possibly made him tranquil, but if the Templars were really THAT bad it would have been done after the first attempt, as to discourage others from making the mistake. Hawke and sister-Hawke are a special case, as their father was a circle mage and fully trained, he could have easily taught them the basics they needed to know in order to control their power, as well as hide it. I personally always got the sense that Magic in Thedas worked a lot like Sorcery from Dungeons & Dragons, you suddenly had power, no control whatsoever , and in the case with Thedas could easily tear the veil (as evidenced with Connor in Redcliff) So I don't know I would go so far to say all baby mages would be harmless or could live normal lives. There is the idea you cannot leave permanently, which I assume some people would view as a form of oppression, but if you're the type of mage who would want to study magic and proud to be a mage, few other places have the resources necessary to perform experiments or practice magic. From the looks of it, the circle doesnt charge for room and board, so you wouldnt ever have to worry about going hungry like most common folks. The part about Mages only being alter dusters, I'd like additional info on as well, I was given to understand the circle's original intent was to have human weapons, not to just teach them cantrips and ensure they didnt learn anything else.

I would say the Ferelden Circle was perhaps different, but I dont know If I'd go so far as to say it was extremely tolerant. First Enchanter Irving (if told about the plan during the mage origin) turns rather cold, wanting to make sure the chantrys involvement doesn't go overlooked. In his own way he teaches the mage player how to survive in the tower with the politics that surround the circle. The Amell Warden was born in Kirkwall, but traditionally the circle tries to keep families apart (which could also be viewed as an oppression) like in the case of Rhys in Asunder. One of the Amell's other children born with magical talent could have been sent to the Gallows, while another may have been sent to Starkhaven. I wont get started on the band of three, as I feel Dorquemada covered that rather thoroughly, I would like to ask where it's stated Corypheus spoke to mages? He speaks to all who carry the taint, Wardens as well as darkspawn. Now The lore of Kirkwall Does have a lot to say about its problems, But to borrow from Dorquemada once more, none of that is ever spoken. It was a piece of codex, from a DLC content. Not all gamers read the codex entries...I'd be willing to admit I personally didnt read them my first few playthroughs. I was too caught up and excited to find out where the story was going to pause the action and read about lore. I have a great example of the "show don't tell" rule, (i swear that needs to be on extra credits, or made into a t-shirt) In Origins Loghain is the "bad guy" but he's not exactly a bad person. speaking to Eamon on at least 2 separate occasions reveals he's really just a patriot, who has seen too much violence, and is afraid to lose the country he fought so hard to free. Within other cut scenes Loghain gets super pissed when people mention Oleasians.(to quote him; "Never! Maric and I drove those bastards out! I will not roll out the welcome wagon for them now.") It's very apparent, even without knowing prior lore, Olais did something to piss him off, and he no longer trusts them. NOW! Flash forward to DA2, the title screen is a mage and a templar... but Orsino and Meredith don't even show up until the end of Act 2. Now, within act 2 you hear second hand of things going on with this "evil" woman... but theres nothing to show for it, had she not made the brief 2 second appearance walking in hightown in act 1 I may not have known who they were talking about. There's a lot she is blamed for but not once did we see a cut scene of her looking at a report of a missing mage, and suddenly yelling to her knight captains to search the tower and impose a new curfew. The overall point here is If the game is going to tell me Kirkwall is an evil place, it should be shown... not just found in a small text file handed to you in a lightly obscure location in a downloadable content pack. Starkhaven mages that you saved could have at least mentioned they didnt want to go to Kirkwall because the veil is thin and the land is dangerous. That small piece of dialog could have put forth the notion mages know kirkwall is a bad place to be, other then just having lots of templars.

Now when you say Meredith was out of control before she got the idol, there may be some mix up there. She wasn't the one making mages tranquil at random, Ser Alrik was, and Meredith was opposed to the idea. Meredith may have been strict, but she wasn't ruthless. Alrik presented the plan to Meredith and the Divine herself, both rejected, but he went through with it anyways. That to me shows she's not as unreasonable as some would lead you to believe. Cullen only starts to question Meredith (technically) after she had received the idol. (again would have been nice to have been shown that). It's almost as if the game wanted you to just assume all the bad things she did was because of the idol, as if after the 'big reveal' you as the player were to say "OOOHH! THATS why she's been acting so crazy!" But As I was shown just as much of her being nice, as I was of her being unreasonable, visually...that is to say never... I wouldn't just accept that. Hell even with the idol, she flat out asks you, "What would you have me do?" to which there is no answer you can give that could be considered an alternative. (more illusion of choice?)

There is proof mages can live among others just fine. But it's the reverse that's not being brought up. People hate mages/magic. Even in Origins, anyone who played a mage can attest to this, people like Ser Jorey act differently, and afraid. Even with people like the bandits on the road, one can be mage-intimidated into running away scared. The general populous doesn't like magic, and openly fears it. Mages living among them could cause unrest, or acts of violence. The Circles are a great idea on paper; give mages a place to go to practice their craft, keep them away from the public for the safety of both mage and common man alike, and kill abominations. Give a mage total freedom, and they may end up creating Tevinter 2.0, there needs to be some sort of rules being enforced. Personally a Tevinter situation is what I fear happening here. A single mage running from Templar hunters may turn to blood magic as a means to escape, what happens when thousands of them have been cornered? I'm personally not confident this issue can be handled properly with the current DA team... as most of the possible outcomes, I don't like, and ME was mishandled. I know most claim because ME3 went bad, and DA2 was bad with DA3 they'll finally deliver, and I really really hope they can (with the work they did with reaching out to fans to ask what they wanted, that was a great start) part of me thinks it will still come out unpolished.

Did not mean to write that much either, but I do enjoy bigger conversations. so by all means do go all out. I know there's mage oppression out there, I just wish it was handled better. Perhaps they could have had the minor instances from origins bleed through to DA2 better by centering the game around the conflict itself, rather than waste 2 acts trying to explain why Hawke is in Kirkwall...THEN get to part where he inadvertently sparks a war. Too bad Asunder couldn't have been flushed out a bit better and formed into a game. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 11:29, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

Meredith called for the Rite because "Better safe than sorry" just like Orsino kept Quentin's scroll about turning corpses into harvester because "Better safe than sorry", they both did it because of their potential threat from each other. Denying potential threat is carelessness and lack of imagination, companies pay attention to potential threats and they survive. Every company requires paying attention to potential threats. Better to be paranoidal and safe than careless and defenceless.—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

So i guess that you lock yourself in basement because there may be conspiracy of aliens well better to be paranoidal and safe ,besides marjolene as well follow this philosphy and we se how that end.On Orsino place i would lie too about research as well if punishment for smoking was chopping your head 90% humans was would do it.Funny lock all Russian because they may create communism 2.0 , for that i see orlais isn't much better than tevinter and chantry do that same just try justify or even convince that lobotomy is mercy and killing who don't want live like they want saying that is justice.Magic may destroy world ,humans also may do it in long-term road but i don't see that you guys scream that human's should be controled.Let's face it stop portraying mages as Tevinter 2.0 because Tevinter is a country that has a own sick culture like orlais will you lock all humans for Orlais? Minsc and Boo

---

Okay, first; Meredith did not call on the rite of anulment to be safe rather then sorry. Anders, a well known apostate, blew up the chantry in front of her. Because the Chantry, along with the Grand Cleric was blown to pieces by magic, she anticipated the people of kirkwall would want retribution. "The grand cleric was killed by magic" It wasnt a pre-signed paper waiting on her desk to use whenever she saw fit. Orsino practicing blood magic, and having the necessary means to transform himself into a harvester only goes to prove meredith's point (and she's supposed to be the crazy one). That is the point I had made earlier, where the game starts to be bias towards mages while at the same time attempting to make you feel sorry for their supposed plight. If you're going to use the argument "use your imagination" then I'd suggets you do the same, where as if I was a non-magic user, perhaps just a common citizen and the first enchanter suddenly used blood magic, I'd assume it was being taught down the line of command and demand they be anulled just as Meredith was suggesting. The problem was the explosion wasnt caused by a circle mage, and Meredith was over-reacting by anulling all mages in order to gain control.

On the second one; lol wut? I'm having a hard time piecing everything you said together. I'll assume your first point was "If the punishment for smoking was a beheading, and you were suspected of smoking, you'd lie as well" This analogy doesn't hold up quite as well. Yes, someone who is about to face death for a crime will most likely lie about it. But the problem here is, he is the First enchanter, who is supposed to look after, guide, teach, and set an example for all mages in his circle. The problem isnt that he was lying, the problem was he was performing blood magic at all. He attempts to be high and mighty, arrogant even, about how he's not doing anything sinister. He then attempts to point fingers at the Knight commander trying to convince people she suspects corruption without any evidence, that she's somehow crazy and see blood magic everywhere, and as such she should not be trusted. The problem is, she's right. The game did nothing to show us one way or the other if she was truly crazy with suspicion or if she had any facts. Your second point, where you took my point and then threw it at a wall... makes less sense, and perhaps you didnt understand what I meant by Tevinter 2.0. Russians are not the same as mages... so lets keep this within Thedas. In Thedas, mages have already been given the opportunity to govern themselves, and i have no doubt the laws that permit things like slavery have had a hand in forming their society, the short of it is; Free mages currently reside in Tevinter. They were given the opportunity to watch themselves and it has turned into an arms race of blood magic,slaves, and money. My point wasnt that they would become the next Tevinter, that was a fear i have given how they (the writers) have been treating mages. as stated before a mage on the run may turn to blood magic, now theres thousands on the run. Lets then say they turn to blood magic to bolster their power, and summon demons to make up for the numbers. Now assume somehow that won the war. Now there's a bunch of blood mages, along with demons, given the opportunity to govern themselves. THAT is how you get Tevinter 2.0. It is one possibl outcome but it's the one i fear the most. I'm not suggesting it's a definite thing, that the mages WILL turn to blood magic, but from what we've seen with DA2, every damn mage ever turned to blood magic. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 01:49, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

The blood magic isn't evil it's crime if having a child was a crime in your society that mean you are bad guy? If you was lock in a prison raped and tortured and somone give you weapon you have not tried be free and not grabbed this gun , most examples blood mages are in game are despair mages who try live own lifes but they are cornered by zealous inquisition.Facepalm on that mages create Tevinter it's like in our world exist for example dwarfs and they meet russians and then lock up all russians who emigrated because they may create communism because they are russians(this is a logic).As i say tevinter is culture like orlais will you lock all humans because they may create orlais 2.0 answer is no!Tevinter is corrupted like as i said Orlais and Antiva and they don't need mages to be corrupted. In Dragon Age 2 mages turn into demons for 2 reasons , extremly weak veil and desperation and i bet you do that same.Mages are group of peoples who don't have the same political views ,that same organisation and even culture they can use magic that what they have common , Tevinter have culture what deppends on rising power and gaining money by crushing other and orlesians have pretty that same just that same why peoples like Petrice hate qunari because they think that they are good guys because maker makes them good and qunari think that qun makes them good.Watch Dragon age redemption if society tells you that you are monster you most likely become monster.The basis of humanity is freedom the ability to make their own decisions and choose what person you will be if somone takes you that because you are elve , mage or dwarf or casteless it's wrong and strips of humanity turning us into animals.The world needs to evolve ,our and every other too we passed middle Ages and we have much better world maybe not perfect but much better.Look on elves they have keepers , look on witches in Rivian and they don't create something like tevinter ,why because being mage like being human doesn't mean that you create a totalitarian country. Minsc and Boo

At what point do free Mages, using blood magic have to ask themselves "hey, I don't have enough blood to continue my research, where can I find more?" Most mages are despair mages? do all the magisters count for that number? They don't seem too sad to me... Also there were a lot of mages who were loyalists before the war started.

You keep bringing Up Russians... it's not the same. All thumbs are finger, but not all fingers are thumbs. By your logic, they should lock up all humans simply because some may be mages. Not ALL Russians are communist and no on would keep them locked up as a preventative tactic. Being a mage isn't a choice. It's not a political view. The known information about Tevinter shows it could easily be replicated in another country. If mages are given total freedom, and no limit to the magics they can learn, the nobles who once sent their children to the circle now have heirs who are mages. Once noble mages start running for political positions, there isn't much stopping a mage from becoming a king. Each step of the way in the political game you have to keep power in check with influence. With a mage able to simply use blood magic to control minds, it would be rather hard to pull them from power, unless you're another mage, starting up an arms race between mages in political positions certainly sounds like the beginnings of a second Tevinter. I wont even acknowledge that garbage called "redemption"....(The Dalish will shoot anyone on sight, yet 3 templars show up and take their keeper without a fight?)Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 07:04, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

again ,magisters=tevinter most mages we seen are despair because they want be free so yes , there is also lot slaves loyalist to tevinter ,there is also qunari mages who will kill themselves so its right?Magisters use blood magic because there is culture who support using blood magic and way for what they use blood magic like orlesians have swords to spread suffering because they culture taught them that is way to live. Yes that same you judge somone because they are that same race or social group (mages) and i say that same not all mages are from tevinter.Being a russian isn't a choice too as you say being a mage is not having one political view but you keep saying that they will transform into tevinter because they are mages so you keep telling us they have political view because to create country you need know way you will create society.There isn't much stopping alistair or anora from being king also like many other monarchs in our world.Hah is that really ,are we really need blood magic to control peoples maniplulations ,brainswhasing take your pick chantry and qunari do it as much tevinters do only whitout magic.Why mage will more difficult to stop if he is tyrant even mages will try stop him every tyrant is difficult to stop look what chantry do or qunari are they easy to stop?Besides you automacitly assume that mage king will be evil why they can't be good and what is diffrence betwen mage king and warrior king if they are fools so they will fall if they are smart they will rule.We can take examples from Forgotten Realms mages there are far much powerful that in Dragon Age and so we have societes of mages like tevinter look on red wizards and we have good scietes of mages and yes they can control mind too and even summon balor in the middle of the city.

Magisters are not limited to just tevinter, it's not a culture. Olais doesn't have social rules against using magic. I'm not sure where you're pulling this from but I'd like to see some proof. Did you not play DA2? In Act 3, the quest called Faith, even the grand cleric mentions multiple times, the divine herself is afraid free mages within Kirkwall will become the next Imperium. The game itself references the very issue I bought up, it's no speculation, it's not just some theory. It's a very real possibility free mages can create another Imperium if given the right tools to do so, and having a lot of blood mages in open war could very well be one. Your Russian analogy is so flawed I've lost all interest in attempting to explain it... It's not a need to use blood magic to control someone's mind but it is damn sure effective, and part of the reason why mages aren't allowed to have holdings such as titles or land. Have you heard of another way in Thedas people use mind control? I feel like you're leading this conversation from Thedas to the real world. lets keep focus. Also, I dont believe a mage seeking a title would necessarily be evil, that was just one example I was using. There is hardly any doubt that even if a good mage sought such power, it would also lure other mages with possibly nefarious plans to over throw them. If you're going to mention Dragon Age Redemption, why not instead look at Dawn of the Seeker? Where members of the chantry and templars hired blood mages to mind control an elf, into mind controlling dragons, to attack the divine outright? You keep act as if blood magic hasn't been biowares main recurring theme, or seem content to ignore it. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 23:39, June 7, 2013 (UTC)