Forum:Circle mage oppression

Forums: Index > Lore DiscussionCircle mage oppression

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So, I'm aware a lot of people are sick of the Mages v Templars sort of discussions. Thats cool, this post wont be for you though, as a fair warning. Also sorry if this gets long...

Anyways; I wanted to hear some feedback from other people, even if you didn't play a mage character. When I played Origins the first time, I understood the inherent rules of being a mage. The world fears/hates you, you're stuck in a tower and not allowed to leave, Templars will watch you every second, and before you can be considered "safe" you're to be thrown to the wolves (or demon rather) in order to pass a test, or get a magic lobotomy. At first I kinda shrugged it off...Rather I thought it was kinda cool to be considered so dangerous they've effectively removed you from society to practice your craft with other mages. ("You mean because I set this boy on fire, you're going to send me to a tower to learn how to set more things on fire? sign me up") This is when the Lore Kicks in, and says "Well, conditions are bad... Templars may verbally threaten you... You never really hit your full potential as a mage, you're just kinda taught basics.." etc etc. From a DA:O standpoint, I never once felt mages were oppressed. There's Apprentices in the market, mages hanging out in front of "Wonders of Thedas" and without additional reasoning, when Wynne asks to leave they just say "sure". So to me It seemed you could just be a good mage, and the "downside" of having to stay at the tower becomes meaningless. In DA2 they still mention Meredith "squeezing the mages" but that doesn't mean anything to me... it isn't until "The tranquil solution" I felt they were oppressed, but even that was going against what Meredith even wanted. This is probably just a case of Lore vs. gameplay, and I know things were supposedly different in the Ferelden Circle, But I've just never felt oppressed while playing as a mage. I was a proud Circle Mage Aequitarian. The Templars served a purpose in the tower. Am I missing huge plot points here? (as its been a while since I've done a play-through) Or does anyone else feel they could have done a bit better job conveying Mage "oppression"? Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 23:33, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

There are a few comments made during party chatter in DA2. Anders mentions to Sebastian that Templars beat and rape mages in the circle, though it did not happen to him Alain will mention that letters of his are being burned rather than sens and that Karras has been in his chamber and threatened Tranquility on Alain if he says anything. So there are definitely abuses going on. 204.237.81.250 (talk) 03:42, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

What are you after? You wrote this to hear again from that it's a propaganda? It is and magic this topic only proobes your obsession on mage-templar topic. With same topic from same area of interest the forum becomes stagnat because of lack of new topics.78.9.0.93 (talk) 08:09, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

As stated before, if you're tired of the mage/templar talk, this isnt for you. As that is the current state of the lore/games/books, that's as relevant as we can get. And since 'propaganda' seems to be the only word you know, I'm going to go ahead and skip over that part. What I am after is information. The Lore speaks a great deal of the mage oppression that I felt wasn't well represented in the games. That's a bit miss-leading. The Lore tells you things are bad for city elves, and in the origin story you're shown just how bad it can be. Later, you're shown how much worse it could get. In DA2 you're told all mages are dangerous, nearly every one you meet is a blood mage. The game hands you a personal reason for hating mages by having one kill your mother, the one mage you save kidnaps your sibling and tries to kill you. There is a lot (i feel) the games do with mages that feels bias. From a design standpoint, story, lore, and gameplay. I wanted additional information on the "why" of this revolution, as it feels it was mishandled with conflicting information.Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 16:21, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

Your "why" is part of the bigger problem called "Dragon Age 2". Among its faults, the one stands out quite noticeably when compared to "Origins" - that is, violation of "Show, don't tell" rule, which is especially important for a medium as visually dependent as a video game. In "Origins", as you stalk through creepy, haunted by demons Tower, encountering fine entities like Sloth demon and thinking it all was started by one man, it helps you understand that, maybe, those dangerous dudes and dudettes better stay where they can be easily isolated in case of emergency. The Templars mostly do their job, and their Commander understands that cooperating with people who can set everything on fire is smarter than oppressing them, and it makes sense - after all, it started with mages sort of choosing isolation themselves if I remember lore correctly. Of course, there are bad apples on the both sides, but nothing extreme. Trusted mages can move more or less freely, untrusted are very quietly lobotomized, there are factions, there are communication between the Towers - in short, everything's more or less sensible.

Now, enter "Dragon Age 2", where everything serves the one purpose - to make stuff Something Awesome™! Of course lore gets thrown out of the window, because I imagine there were no time to work on nuances, so story's delivery is ham-fisted up to eleven. OMG Templars are all genocidal maniacs and rapists!!! But OMG all mages are blood-crazy demon summoners so dem Templars are right, amirite???? Voila, insta-dark'n'gritty "dark" fantasy! Add the complete disconnect between the story and game's mechanics, and you have the clusterfuck that makes no sense whatsoever, but is flashy, melodramatic and chock-full of frenzied akshun.

In short - don't overthink anything that happened in DA2, because the reason of anything in it is "just because". Also, ignore 78.9.0.93, he seems to believe every topic regarding mages is made with the sole purpose to piss him off. Dorquemada (talk) 18:37, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

^Full of win, as (almost) always :) There is one thing I disagree with, though. Do NOT ignore the "anonymous" Dalish Fan. I like when he/she/it replies back. -Algol- (talk) 18:44, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

@Dorquemada expertly said. I think I even caught myself a few times overusing DA2 when discussing Mage oppression. Aside from the tranquil-reverse coverup thing from the books, I couldn't really see where pre-DA2 Anders was coming from. But as said, expertly put, and I thank you for the info. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 21:38, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

The propaganda-obsessed-anon (or 'Dalish Fan', as Algol has dubbed him... may I ask why?) clearly missed the part in the first sentence of the post that said that this thread is not for you if you are sick of the mage-Templar discussions. But yeah, you can't ignore him/her... the resolving discussions never fail to be entertaining.

On topic, the OP raised some good points - which I never had given much thought. The Mage-Templar relationship in Ferelden seemed quite peaceful, though obviously some felt the 'slavery' of the circle, wasn't for them. Morrigan viewed the way the mages had submitted with distain, and Anders (in Awakening) obviously was opposed to the circle. So I think the issues were there, though in Ferelden Mages were given far more freedom. We know they attended war councils with King Calin - were the Chantry clearly didn't approve, Alistair and Anora offer Wynne a place at court.

Where as Kirkwall is a Templar stronghold. They overthrew the previous regime, and put the Viscount in power. When he died, they took the power for themselves. Meredith wasn't unreasonable though, she didn't allow the Tranquil Solution to happen for example. Morrigan did allude to a big change coming in Witch Hunt, so I guess I did see it coming. I always sided with the Mages, but I never saw where Anders was coming from - and I always killed him. I agree that DA2 could have set up the events for DA3 better, I somehow imagine outside of Orlais most circles being like the Ferleden circle, so one would have thought the Cumberland circle or Antivan circles, or what ever, wouldn't be so quick to rise up in support of there oppressed brethren in Kirkwall, if they had fairly amicable relations with their own Templars. Alexsau1991 ^{(talk page)} File:Goddammit.svg 22:09, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

"or 'Dalish Fan', as Algol has dubbed him... may I ask why?"

You wound me :) 'Tis was not me who dubbed him (?) so, the "anon" used to "sign" his posts by "Just call me Dalish Fan" a bit earlier, so I just oblige him. -Algol- (talk) 22:45, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

Ah, makes sense! Good to know... far easier than referring to him/her as the propaganda-obsessed-anon. :) Alexsau1991 ^{(talk page)} File:Goddammit.svg 22:56, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

I'll write wherever I want and nobody can forbid me this, nor Alexsau1991, nor Alogol, nor even Warden Mage: Ferris. You can only deleate my text, but you mustn't. If you do this, you'll get punished and I can restore it every time. So many people discuss about their obsessive hatred to Chantry even on forums which aren't about them, so can do those sick about mage-templar mess, revolution of casteless and qunari vs tevinter are examples of going off topic. I won't submit to you and you won't break my will. I do not listen to anyone and nobody can change my mind. I'm so stuborn that you'll get tired of me rather than change my mind.78.8.102.231 (talk) 23:03, June 1, 2013 (UTC)