I have seen here a couple of times that I'm not the only one disappointed by the fact that the game does not reflect at all if you play a mage in the city with the harshest restrictions on magic users. I was wondering, what and how could have been done to make the playing more plausible and challenging in this respect?
I think it would have been quite easy to impose restrictions on the use of magic in public and highly supervised places, such as the Hightown or Gallows, similarly as in BGII before you purchased a licence to perform magic. At night, in slums or within buildings, you could cast without a problem.
Your mage(s) should wear a disguise in public (or at least unequip the staff), similarly as at the Howe estate in DAO - I believe this could be done automatically once you enter a prohibited area, so that the player wasn't bothered every time. I'm not sure how to bypass the problem when dealing with the templars,since it would require an individual solution for every single situation. Still, it could have been done at least now and then; e.g. after the confrontation with Wilmod, Cullen might have dropped something along the line "you saved my life, I'll forget I've ever seen any use of magic here".
Any other ideas? Ygrain (talk) 14:14, May 15, 2011 (UTC)
"Surely you don't mean to force an old man to part with his walking stick?" Lemonaidz (talk) 14:24, May 15, 2011 (UTC)
ROFL. Lemonaidz, that's what Gandalf said on the second portion of The Lord of The Rings trilogy. Problem is, Hawke is not as old as Mithrandir, unless you make him look old, LOL. NicKeL BreaD (talk) 15:05, May 15, 2011 (UTC)
- You can carry as many sticks as you wish but please, do remove that skull from the top, it´s a bit creepy, not to mention the fact that it yells "maleficar" wide and far :-) Ygrain (talk) 16:50, May 15, 2011 (UTC)
- Made me LOL. Touché.
- For the OP, I'll blame the shoddy plotwork. Kirkwall is supposed to be this scary place for mages, and for nearly a decade ANDERS, the ABOMINATION, manages to stay safely hidden while having a clinic open. All the Templars had to do was injure some poor Fereldan and follow him/her limp to Darktown to Anders' clinic. Problem solved!
- As for Hawke, the explanation given that he's the scion of the Hawke family and poaching him for the Circle would cause outrage amongst the nobility makes me ask: Isn't the Viscount the Templars' bitch? What's a few fat and pampered nobles?
- In Origins, there's some impact on dialogue if you're a mage. You can intimidate people by threatening to turn them into toads but you're untouchable because you're a Warden, you're a mage and you've got Morrigan behind you. In Kirkwall, it seems the Templars are only scary if you're caught, given the amount of apostate mages Hawke kills--that makes speccing Hawke into a Templar almost worthwhile. Enough bashing.
- Improvements: unequip staff as mentioned by the OP. More or less conspicuousness as a mage (circumstance driven), special actions if Hawke's a mage (similar to slaver caverns where if Hawke's a rogue, you can kill the slaver leader as a dialogue option), clothing that doesn't scream "MAGE HERE!"...Spiral Eye armor set, I'm looking at you. And siding with the Templars as a mage should produce vast amounts of rivalry from Anders and Merrill as well as unique dialogue from Meredith and/or Orsino. And the Arishok should express disgust or anger at a bas saarebas deigning to speak to him. There should at least be an Arvaraad nearby and contribute to the dialogue. And if a mage Hawke defeats the Arishok in a duel, when the Qunari leave, there should be some reaction from them, rather than just glare and leave.
- TL;DR things could have been done. Quirkynature (talk) 14:55, May 15, 2011 (UTC)
I also agree that the in-game failure to address the question does negatively impact immersion and suspension of disbelief. It really wouldn't require a great deal to deal with the issue. If the PC or someone in the party is a Mage, simply have Templars or Chantry question the Mage staff at the first meeting. Give an explanation that the Mage is here to visit a friend at the Circle, or the like, and let the questioner accept the explanation with a scowl (or some such), then the next time the party goes to meet with authorities, have the PC say to any Mage in the party "better put that staff up", or have the party say that to the PC if the PC is the Mage. Party Mages could automatically hide their staffs as you suggest; PC Mages would be reminded if they didn't hide their staffs (adding to an atmosphere of Kirkwall is suspicious of Mages, thereby enhancing immersion).
An alternative known technique that could be used in conjunction would be to have the PC, or a member of the party, remark at some point that they are "surprised" they don't encounter more suspicious questioning from the authorities in Kirkwall. Another character could point out that there might be legitimate reasons for some Mages to be in Kirkwall, and basically shrug. Generally if a character in a story comments on something seeming unusual, and then accepts it for whatever reason, the reader will usually go along with the character's suspension of disbelief, as the reader's need to question the item/event has been addressed by the character. WarPaint (talk) 15:17, May 15, 2011 (UTC)
- TYhats a rteally good suggestion BuT1 you gotta realize that BiowAre has taken another direCtion already. Thats' making game to the wider audiences and kids. As you see there's no more Dark Fantasy, theres' s no more Deep Moral Choices like in Dragon Origins. M-Laidlaw said it hnimself in an interview peiror to the release that they've switch from Decisions that pjhysically effect story and characters to Decisions & Dialogues that effect friends (Companions). I can point you to it I stlll remember it its that in\terview where we see M-Laid's face in it. Back to your Topic THO. What i was gonna say awas that would just take too much time and annoy most of the peaple. -PierceTehTruth
Ive had Meredith comment that being the champion only goes so far, so that grants you some immunity. Maybe the Viscount keeps you away from the templars early on?--Drldrl (talk) 15:27, May 15, 2011 (UTC)
- YEA MAYBVE man MAYBE. BUt they Ddint tell us tho like what W-Paint said, they Should;'ve Told Us. -PierceTehTruth
Well, sometimes the templars can't tell an apostate by sight if they were staring in their faces. For example, Gascard DuPuis stayed out of the templars' sight in his nobleman's position.--Unic of the borg (talk) 16:10, May 15, 2011 (UTC)
- Thats coz GG-Duprooz doesn't wear Mage Robe. He totally blends in. If u seee him wlak around H-Town and u dont know him can u tell? Coz I cant, He looks knida like the Magistrate int he Magistrate ORders quest. Tahts the seame shirt they wera. We should get one of that. tahts what peaple been saying. -PierceTehTruth
Now that I think of it, I guess that the issue could have been used for better personalization of the quests. If the templars create an atmosphere of fear among the citizens of Kirkwall (Keran´s sister mentions harassing people who harbour apostates and even passers-by), wouldn´t it be natural if someone tried to blackmail Hawke/Bethany, denounced them etc? "Do this OR..." cetainly makes quests very personal and it could lead to very entertaining situations, if you try to intimidate the person or, say, "be nice" to them :-) Ygrain (talk) 16:50, May 15, 2011 (UTC)
- I like to think of templars and the citizens of Thedas as being extremely stupid. Mictlantecuhtli (talk) 18:29, May 15, 2011 (UTC)
- Same here. Either that or everyone has really bad eyesight lol. And I agree with you Ygrain, I would have really felt more personally involved as a mage if say my Hawke/Bethany was blackmailed during certain quests or our magic was noted more in conversations, like with the smugglers or the Red Irons after Lothering. Same would have applied to teammates; Someone threatens you through Anders or Merrill because you were seen with them by the templars, and unless they comply to their demands, Hawke's life would be at risk. Not only would this have lead to some interesting personal quests, but if you were in a relationship with either one, the quests would then be tailored to fit said relationship, making them that much more personal. Sevarian10 (talk) 19:50, May 15, 2011 (UTC)Sevarian10
It would have been nice if NPC's reacted differently depending upon whethr Hawke was a mage, or if there was a mage in Hawke's party. I imagined in a place where there were severe punishments for helping apostates that most people would be wary of talking to one. For example, the merchants not wanting to sell anything to you until Varric convinces them that the templars won't find out. Also, in the end with the quest "Best Served Cold", it would be nice if they DIDN'T assume that my mage Hawke was in line with Meredith. It made no sense! The opportunities were there, I don't know why the game wasn't presented that way.WielderoftheswordofTruthiness (talk) 20:51, May 15, 2011 (UTC)
- I KNOW!!
- Mage: We know you're working with Meredith!
- Hawke: The hell?! I'm with Orsino, you idiot!
- Mage at warehouse: I told you he was on to us!
- Hawke: On to what? I'm here on behalf of Orsino and wanted to ask...
- Mage: To arms!!
- Hawke: =_=;
- Ser Thrask: We only want to make sure you're not with Meredith
- Hawke: ANDRASTE'S FLAMING ASS!! Read. my. lips: I'm. with. ORSINO!
- *sigh* Sevarian10 (talk) 21:02, May 15, 2011 (UTC)Sevarian10
Yeah the game didn't show very well that it was wealth and status that held the templars off. I mean thats what it says in act 1 and it's clear money can cover some eyes, but they didn't show it happening, a Templar starts toward you and a fellow interupts him or something like that would work. (Knight Templar (talk) 08:29, May 16, 2011 (UTC))
- Not entirely so. All way through Act I, Hawke is a total nobody, and since s/he's with Red Irons no longer, I doubt that Meeran's protection would still apply. And even if it did, it would be immediately withdrawn if Hawke did anything as stupid as displaying magic abilities in public or even in front of a Templar. - Besides, isn't Bethany taken away in the end? Wealth and status obviously are not enough. Ygrain (talk) 08:59, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
While I too would have liked to see a bit more distinction in Mage Hawke's experiences in Kirkwall, Templar capital of the world (excepting perhaps Orlais, seat of the Chantry's power and all), I see a lot of complaints here that can be explained away, that is, if you're willing to explain them away.
Robes: Common to the fantasy games by virtue of becoming common in Fantasy Literature. By my understanding this started with authors such as J.R.R Tolkien depicting wizards in a fashion similar to the mortal disguise used by Odin in Norse mythology (Odin being, among other things, a god of Magic). The reason for robes being the chosen attire was precisely because they were alleged to be a common, and therefore, an unassuming garment used by the all powerful traveler to blend in with an unsuspecting populace. Problem with the fantasy game perspective is that they often adopt it as a completely unique-to-mages attire, thus they become too easily identified at a glance. Easy fix, just have more people wearing robes, or recognize that outside the games mechanics, robes would be worn by more than just magi and be a little more varied in appearance (outside of uniforms like the Circle uses).
Staves: Would be a dubious give away were it not for 80% of all staves Hawke & Co. use looking like Spears, Morning Stars, Halberds, and Picks. Only Mage Staves that look like Staves alone are; the ones all apostates everywhere use (who are not part of Hawke's crew), Bethany's late game staff, Orsino's, and Cold-Blooded (least off the top of my head). The rest, well, they all look like Pole-arm weapons and the like (except they shoot fire). Hell, in that facebook DA game the version of Hawke that appears is a warrior that uses the Staff of Parthalan (and wears the champion robes incidentally).
Anders, Hawke, and Merril staying out of sight: Kirkwall is a huge city state, the areas you visit composing only a very small portion of it. Can't be easy for any group that lacks a sophisticated communication/transport system to cover effectivly, especially a group that (by Cullen's admission) is not a very welcome sight by even the common populace. Also, people don't care about elves, Darktown is a cesspit that probably few people would go to willingly, let alone patrol regularly, and any organization has members who can be bought. Though even on that last note the templars are supposed to be less a police force and more a collective of overzealous inquisitors, barring a few members who pity their charges.
Honestly my biggest issue with mages in the game comes more from the contradictions in DA2 over DA:O. Mages cannot inherit a noble title (possibly ignored because Hawke doesn't seem to actually gain a noble title, just the Champion title). Warden's keep implied summoning demons is difficult and treacherous, yet pretty much every friggin group of apostates is gating in armies of the bloody things, who I might add are not trying to kill/possess their summoners. Also why do abominations sometimes just rise from the ground during a fight?! They're supposed to be recently possesed mages by lesser demons aren't they? Gahh, I'm starting to think too much about this. I'll finish by saying the only thing I think really should have been addressed more was Hawke and friends using magic openly in front of the likes of Cullen, Thrask, and any other templars you weren't killing and then not having them mention it in the slightest. Meredith at least comments on how you are a mage in your first meeting with her. --174.3.126.170 (talk) 10:37, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
Let me give you an explanation for everything in one sentence: The game was half-a**ed--SJD2342 (talk) 11:14, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
If playing as a mage resulted in more of a restricted gameplay, as opposed to warrior or rogue, I'm guessing a lot of people would be turned off playing as a mage. Some would prefer the increased immersion, but some would find it tedious. And they've steered this more towards an action liking audience so it would go against that idea. I just took it as because you'd been doing some good deeds they didn't go after you, isn't it spoken of at some point? Then especially when you become champion, you're now known, but you're also known as someone doing right by the general community. In a good guy play through anyway. S13Kuro (talk) 12:41, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- The restrictions on the use of spells and outfit would apply to all mages, not just Hawke, and if they were performed automatically, they wouldn't be much of a bother, and with cleverly distributed quests so that the use of magic was not, in fact, essential in the restricted areas, it wouldn't make the gameplay any more problematic for a mage Hawke as compared to other classes. All that had to be done was adding a couple of lines here and there indicating that Hawke's magic was noticed but intetionally overlooked. Performing beneficial acts wouldn't be enough to keep Templars at bay - after all, Anders was doing very beneficial work at his clinic, and still he was in an imminent danger if revealed. - Basically, Bioware fell here into a trap of their own making - first they devise a place that is extremely hostile to magic users, and then let you use magic (not just mage Hawke but the other party members, as well) on a regular basis and without any consequences at all. Would it be too much to expect a couple of cosmetic changes so that the discrepancy between the setting and the gameplay wouldn't be so striking? Ygrain (talk) 16:07, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
One more idea how to increase immersion: after the fight in an area where the use of magic is not safe, there could be a cutscene with one of the party members saying something like "let's get out of here, the show was bound to draw attention", and then show the party disappearing in a side alley just as Templars are arriving to investigate. Ygrain (talk) 17:11, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
Itt was already OBvIOUS when we were using Magical SPELLs at the Gallows when we frist arrived from the Boat. We were using sPells rite in front of tme TeMPLARS. YEt he THNAKED us without saying anything AND went to find GAMLEN for us THEn Let us in1!. THAts so WEIRD1 -PierceTheTruth
- It is unfortunate, but it would seem a Haxzor Demon has possessed you, and I am left with no choice but to destroy you S13Kuro (talk) 10:22, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
Keep forgetting to sign my posts on here =S Yeah I get ya, I just mean in comparison to the other classes you can play as. If you can do whatever you like in an area as a warrior or rogue, but not as a mage, it could render some people a bit cheesed with it, so I think they have just binned the idea, if they'd had it, just to make it more enjoyable for the masses. Yeah that could be a decent idea. But in the end, having it be made clear that mages can't use any magic in the city for fear of persecution, would give it a sense of danger whenever you have one in the party etc. And maybe there are specialised ways to go about escaping without killing pursuers? And these could be used against hostile Templars at any time? Could even by the focus of your fighting at the very end if you side with the mages but don't want to have to kill Templars. S13Kuro (talk) 12:41, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- "specialized ways to go about escaping" - I think I quite like the idea that you, say, take a sharp turn into an alley, pull a lever as you go by... and the pursuing Templars fall into a sewer which, as if magically, opened just under their feet. If they redesigned the usual gore splatter in brown, it would look very realistic :-)) Ygrain (talk) 12:51, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah stuff like that. And if mages could use their immobilisation spells like petrify, maybe once its cast a cutscene follows of the guys getting awayS13Kuro (talk) 14:44, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- Oh yes, any good architect immediately thinks ”This town certainly needs more pits of doom. Perhaps a spike trap operated by a lever would make this ally far livelier, and then a small garden at then end to make it feel more natural.” Certainly adds to the immersion and believability to the setting.
- I can tell you that ever since I got that pot of boiling oil over my door, I never get any salesmen trying to sell me alarms or cameras anymore! I mean, don’t everyone keep death-traps around their house? Neighbours have been giving me strange looks ever since I replaced the front fence with barbed wire and a minefield though… but I guess they just miss my roses? Anyhow, I’m off to rig some remote detonated explosives to my car, and mailbox, just in case. – Kerethos (talk) 15:00, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- Sarcasm isn't exactly needed here.These are just possibilities anyway.And spikes are not mentioned anyway.That was supposed to be a ditch.--SJD2342 (talk) 15:04, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- The thing with medieval cities is that they rarely, if ever, had an architect, so you're probably right - there would hardly be sewer trapdoors since there would be no sewers at all. Meaning, all you'd have to do to see a couple of Templars all smeared in excrement would be a string across the said alley entrance :-) - Seriously, I was just kidding. A typical medieval city, with its maze of winding streets and alleys, would offer tons of opportunities to escape pursuit. A farmer's cart pulled by a stubborn mule would block any path for hours. Ygrain (talk) 15:18, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, I just chose some sarcasm as a blunt way to steer the whole thing away from "lever operated pitfalls into the sewers". But, there are few occasions where you actually use magic in the middle of the day, in front of people, and more importantly you don't leave any enemy survivors to take revenge on you later. The only big “why doesn’t he seem to notice” is when you first meet Cullen, but this could be that he’s too busy fighting the demons and abominations to take notes on who does the actual spellcasting – since their all attacking him with magic and melee attacks.
- Later on it’s shown that he is aware that Anders is a mage, but he chooses to overlook it at the time. He even argues with Anders, referring to him as “mage”, if you confront him with Ser Alrik’s notes, which most likely means that he’s somehow prevented to take actions, possibly because he’s under order not to cross Hawke. The reason for this is:
- Once you’re a noble, you’re offered some protection by your status.
- More importantly you’re working for the Viscount – and since you’re the only one the Arishok will talk to you’ve become rather essential, and thus worth keeping out of the Gallows.
- And once that’s done, you’ve become The Champion, making you near untouchable. – Kerethos (talk) 16:00, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- I was under the impression that the Viscount cannot even fart without the Templars' consent; the noble status itself, as I pointed above, was not enough to protect Bethany. As for the Champion status - I don't believe that even the Champion could defy the Templars openly, because even Champions may have lethal accidents; these are just a bit more difficult to arrange.Ygrain (talk) 16:27, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- @Ygrain Your comment about the layout of a typical medieval city points to another obvious Kirkwall problem; neither the layout nor the construction of Kirkwall resembles a typical medieval city, not even slightly. There are so many different issues undercutting believability of the Kirkwall environment. It's almost as if the designers simply threw up their hands from the start and said, "Who cares? None of this stuff is believable."
Whoops, looks like my comment got deleted by accident.
Alright, I guess it's time to make an actual comment in this thread since it's still living.
I can't say I have cared much about nobody noticing I'm a mage. However, I may have actually cared if the game didn't repeatedly try to break any feeling of roleplaying by railroading you. What I want to say is that this clearly wasn't the main problem of the game. It would have been nice, sure, but not necessary. Lemonaidz (talk) 16:35, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, I know, we're discussing pimples while the patient has died of complex multiple traumata. What totally baffles me is that the potential was there, the means were there - so what the heck happened that no-one bothered to correct the glaring faults? Ygrain (talk) 16:47, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
Keep in mind that this is a fantasy setting, and Kirkwall was built, in part, with magic. It's not restricted to being a historical representation of a medieval city any more then people consider the sewer arrangements of Rivendell. Also, Meredith is not some all powerful ruler; she’s still bound by the law and would be replaced if she’d openly break it, against the general populace of Kirkwall. – Kerethos (talk) 16:56, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- Kirkwall was built a couple of centuries ago; even if its central part still kept the original design, the slums and outskirts would develop on their own. And as for Rivendell sewer system, I wouldn't bet my shoes on its nonexistence, given that Tolkien paid A LOT of attention to make his fantasy setting realistic (note please that the best works of fantasy are those which pay a great deal of attention to details and realism). As for the omnipotent Meredith - you've said it yourself: OPENLY. BTW, wasn't the previous Viscount murdered because he crossed the Templars? Ygrain (talk) 18:21, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- Sure. It's a fantasy setting so anything goes. No restrictions. Believe it or not I agree with that logic; "We can do whatever we want because its fantasy." But then there's another question; "Should we do what gamers want so they'll want to play the game?"
- [EDIT] To explicitly complete the thought: As it turns out, silly little things like immersion and choice are important to most RPG gamers. WarPaint (talk) 17:17, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- If they picked a pseudo-medieval setting, social structure etc., there's no reason they should digress in other aspects. - But you're right that non-generic non-medieval settings are more interesting - though DAO is a game of my life, I still think that Morrowind had better setting, truly creative. Ygrain (talk) 18:21, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- @Lemonaidz Being "the official spokesperson of the rpg gamer community", and stating that "immersion and choice are important to most RPG gamers" are not even close to being equivalent. If you can't understand that, I can't help you. If I ask the same , "What are you?", question of you, I don't have an answer. Perhaps you can explain. WarPaint (talk) 19:09, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
In a fantasy setting I’m fully capable of accepting architecture that looks beyond what one would expect in terms of how advanced it is compared to the overall level of technology, as long as there’s some reason why it could be constructed. That’s why I’m not fretting over the Imperial Highway, ridiculously large statues and such. If anything, I’d question the ceiling height, and scale, of any dwarven architecture before what we’ve seen in the rest of Thedas (where they at least have the aid of magic). Just look at Orzammar or any Thaig, how the hell did they build that without magic? Hundreds of meters to the “roof” over lakes of molten lava. Bridges over rivers of molten lava, with massive columns in the middle of huge gaps of – you guessed it: molten lava. Even the chains that make up the bridges are crazy, I mean how do they even make them, let alone transport and later mount them to create these bridges? I mean some of them would weight in at hundred of tons, and I doubt we’d even be able to make such structures today above ground – let alone below ground.
Kirkwall seems quite believable compared to anything dwarven in my eyes. - Kerethos (talk) 17:45, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- All of this can get quite exasperating. This thread has gone into a fair amount of detail on the subject of how to enhance immersion. The specific subject was Kirkwall. Now you wish to change the subject to Orzammar. Fine. Go spend some time in Orzammar and you will find that the DA:O developers put quite a bit of effort into techniques for enhancing immersion and believability. Orzammar comes with a very long history. Some of its history is explained. Some of it is said to have been lost ages ago and not understood. Various characters express awe and amazement at the Orzammar environment. Most of the dark roads and the thaigs haven't been restored because the current dwarves don't even know how the things were built to begin with. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
- The whole point of this thread is that those types of techniques were not used to enhance the believability of Kirkwall.
- I doubt that anyone takes issue with your view that Kirkwall is good enough for you, as is. Nevertheless there is still the issue of RPG gamers other than yourself. If you spend some time at the Bioware forum; reading some of the dozens of reviews of DA2; reading some of the thousands of fan reviews of DA2; you will find that RPG gamers do have problems with Kirkwall, even if you don't.
- You are certainly entitled to your views. But at the end of the day, customer satisfaction and sales is what matters to game companies and developers. If you look objectively at the sales figures of DA2, you will find something well short of the success that characterized DA:O. If you then take away the pre-release orders which were due in large part to DA:O, what's left isn't a great deal. WarPaint (talk) 18:42, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- I was not looking to derail the discussion by using the dwarven architecture as an example, my point was there are some fantastic constructions in Thedas, and too me Kirkwall rather pales in comparison too dwarven architecture. As such the sections of Kirkwall that we see in the game don’t appear unbelievable too me, at least not in the way they are constructed.
- What I should have added, is that it’s not – at least too me – the grand scale of constructions that make Kirkwall feel unrealistic, but rather the application of the same basic models over and over and over. For example that there’s 2 models for caves and one model for mansions – making the whole thing quickly feel absurd.
- The few areas that we see in the game are all rather well crafted and, not to mention, well lit, and immersion doesn’t really break for me just because of the constant reuse (though it doesn’t help). Rather, it’s through oddly added restrictions such as the concrete blocks that block of part of the caves or the fact that Fenris never cleans up his mansion (dead bodies laying around for 7 years… imagine the smell!) and such that immersion is broken.
- I like shooters and in multiplayer you normally only have a few maps that are played again and again. But in a game like DA2 where you’re constantly replaying “Mansion” or “Cave” with a few added restrictions quickly serves only to make the world itself remind you it’s just a game. Simply put, it’s not really how the areas look that breaks immersion, but rather how they’re used that breaks it for me. Hopefully, I’ve managed to be clearer about my thoughts on the subject this time. – Kerethos (talk) 19:28, May 17, 2011 (UTC)