Forum:Being An Apostate In Kirkwall

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I have seen here a couple of times that I'm not the only one disappointed by the fact that the game does not reflect at all if you play a mage in the city with the harshest restrictions on magic users. I was wondering, what and how could have been done to make the playing more plausible and challenging in this respect?

I think it would have been quite easy to impose restrictions on the use of magic in public and highly supervised places, such as the Hightown or Gallows, similarly as in BGII before you purchased a licence to perform magic. At night, in slums or within buildings, you could cast without a problem.

Your mage(s) should wear a disguise in public (or at least unequip the staff), similarly as at the Howe estate in DAO - I believe this could be done automatically once you enter a prohibited area, so that the player wasn't bothered every time. I'm not sure how to bypass the problem when dealing with the templars,since it would require an individual solution for every single situation. Still, it could have been done at least now and then; e.g. after the confrontation with Wilmod, Cullen might have dropped something along the line "you saved my life, I'll forget I've ever seen any use of magic here".

Any other ideas? Ygrain (talk) 14:14, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

"Surely you don't mean to force an old man to part with his walking stick?" Lemonaidz (talk) 14:24, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

ROFL. Lemonaidz, that's what Gandalf said on the second portion of The Lord of The Rings trilogy. Problem is, Hawke is not as old as Mithrandir, unless you make him look old, LOL. NicKeL BreaD (talk) 15:05, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

You can carry as many sticks as you wish but please, do remove that skull from the top, it´s a bit creepy, not to mention the fact that it yells "maleficar" wide and far :-) Ygrain (talk) 16:50, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

Made me LOL. Touché.

For the OP, I'll blame the shoddy plotwork. Kirkwall is supposed to be this scary place for mages, and for nearly a decade ANDERS, the ABOMINATION, manages to stay safely hidden while having a clinic open. All the Templars had to do was injure some poor Fereldan and follow him/her limp to Darktown to Anders' clinic. Problem solved!

As for Hawke, the explanation given that he's the scion of the Hawke family and poaching him for the Circle would cause outrage amongst the nobility makes me ask: Isn't the Viscount the Templars' bitch? What's a few fat and pampered nobles?

In Origins, there's some impact on dialogue if you're a mage. You can intimidate people by threatening to turn them into toads but you're untouchable because you're a Warden, you're a mage and you've got Morrigan behind you. In Kirkwall, it seems the Templars are only scary if you're caught, given the amount of apostate mages Hawke kills--that makes speccing Hawke into a Templar almost worthwhile. Enough bashing.

Improvements: unequip staff as mentioned by the OP. More or less conspicuousness as a mage (circumstance driven), special actions if Hawke's a mage (similar to slaver caverns where if Hawke's a rogue, you can kill the slaver leader as a dialogue option), clothing that doesn't scream "MAGE HERE!"...Spiral Eye armor set, I'm looking at you. And siding with the Templars as a mage should produce vast amounts of rivalry from Anders and Merrill as well as unique dialogue from Meredith and/or Orsino. And the Arishok should express disgust or anger at a bas saarebas deigning to speak to him. There should at least be an Arvaraad nearby and contribute to the dialogue. And if a mage Hawke defeats the Arishok in a duel, when the Qunari leave, there should be some reaction from them, rather than just glare and leave.

TL;DR things could have been done. Quirkynature (talk) 14:55, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

I also agree that the in-game failure to address the question does negatively impact immersion and suspension of disbelief. It really wouldn't require a great deal to deal with the issue. If the PC or someone in the party is a Mage, simply have Templars or Chantry question the Mage staff at the first meeting. Give an explanation that the Mage is here to visit a friend at the Circle, or the like, and let the questioner accept the explanation with a scowl (or some such), then the next time the party goes to meet with authorities, have the PC say to any Mage in the party "better put that staff up", or have the party say that to the PC if the PC is the Mage. Party Mages could automatically hide their staffs as you suggest; PC Mages would be reminded if they didn't hide their staffs (adding to an atmosphere of Kirkwall is suspicious of Mages, thereby enhancing immersion).

An alternative known technique that could be used in conjunction would be to have the PC, or a member of the party, remark at some point that they are "surprised" they don't encounter more suspicious questioning from the authorities in Kirkwall. Another character could point out that there might be legitimate reasons for some Mages to be in Kirkwall, and basically shrug. Generally if a character in a story comments on something seeming unusual, and then accepts it for whatever reason, the reader will usually go along with the character's suspension of disbelief, as the reader's need to question the item/event has been addressed by the character. WarPaint (talk) 15:17, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

TYhats a rteally good suggestion BuT1 you gotta realize that BiowAre has taken another direCtion already. Thats' making game to the wider audiences and kids. As you see there's no more Dark Fantasy, theres' s no more Deep Moral Choices like in Dragon Origins. M-Laidlaw said it hnimself in an interview peiror to the release that they've switch from Decisions that pjhysically effect story and characters to Decisions & Dialogues that effect friends (Companions). I can point you to it I stlll remember it its that in\terview where we see M-Laid's face in it. Back to your Topic THO. What i was gonna say awas that would just take too much time and annoy most of the peaple. -PierceTehTruth

That´s why I was suggesting an automatic unequip and/or disguise. Prohobiting spells in some areas might also work automatically. Ygrain (talk) 16:50, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

Ive had Meredith comment that being the champion only goes so far, so that grants you some immunity. Maybe the Viscount keeps you away from the templars early on?--Drldrl (talk) 15:27, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

YEA MAYBVE man MAYBE. BUt they Ddint tell us tho like what W-Paint said, they Should;'ve Told Us. -PierceTehTruth

Well, sometimes the templars can't tell an apostate by sight if they were staring in their faces. For example, Gascard DuPuis stayed out of the templars' sight in his nobleman's position.--Unic of the borg (talk) 16:10, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

Thats coz GG-Duprooz doesn't wear Mage Robe. He totally blends in. If u seee him wlak around H-Town and u dont know him can u tell? Coz I cant, He looks knida like the Magistrate int he Magistrate ORders quest. Tahts the seame shirt they wera. We should get one of that. tahts what peaple been saying. -PierceTehTruth

Now that I think of it, I guess that the issue could have been used for better personalization of the quests. If the templars create an atmosphere of fear among the citizens of Kirkwall (Keran´s sister mentions harassing people who harbour apostates and even passers-by), wouldn´t it be natural if someone tried to blackmail Hawke/Bethany, denounced them etc? "Do this OR..." cetainly makes quests very personal and it could lead to very entertaining situations, if you try to intimidate the person or, say, "be nice" to them :-) Ygrain (talk) 16:50, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

I like to think of templars and the citizens of Thedas as being extremely stupid. Mictlantecuhtli (talk) 18:29, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

Same here. Either that or everyone has really bad eyesight lol. And I agree with you Ygrain, I would have really felt more personally involved as a mage if say my Hawke/Bethany was blackmailed during certain quests or our magic was noted more in conversations, like with the smugglers or the Red Irons after Lothering. Same would have applied to teammates; Someone threatens you through Anders or Merrill because you were seen with them by the templars, and unless they comply to their demands, Hawke's life would be at risk. Not only would this have lead to some interesting personal quests, but if you were in a relationship with either one, the quests would then be tailored to fit said relationship, making them that much more personal. Sevarian10 (talk) 19:50, May 15, 2011 (UTC)Sevarian10

It would have been nice if NPC's reacted differently depending upon whethr Hawke was a mage, or if there was a mage in Hawke's party. I imagined in a place where there were severe punishments for helping apostates that most people would be wary of talking to one. For example, the merchants not wanting to sell anything to you until Varric convinces them that the templars won't find out. Also, in the end with the quest "Best Served Cold", it would be nice if they DIDN'T assume that my mage Hawke was in line with Meredith. It made no sense! The opportunities were there, I don't know why the game wasn't presented that way.WielderoftheswordofTruthiness (talk) 20:51, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

I KNOW!!

Mage: We know you're working with Meredith!

Hawke: The hell?! I'm with Orsino, you idiot!

Mage at warehouse: I told you he was on to us!

Hawke: On to what? I'm here on behalf of Orsino and wanted to ask...

Mage: To arms!!

Hawke: =_=;

Ser Thrask: We only want to make sure you're not with Meredith

Hawke: ANDRASTE'S FLAMING ASS!! Read. my. lips: I'm. with. ORSINO!

*sigh* Sevarian10 (talk) 21:02, May 15, 2011 (UTC)Sevarian10

Yeah the game didn't show very well that it was wealth and status that held the templars off. I mean thats what it says in act 1 and it's clear money can cover some eyes, but they didn't show it happening, a Templar starts toward you and a fellow interupts him or something like that would work. (Knight Templar (talk) 08:29, May 16, 2011 (UTC))

Not entirely so. All way through Act I, Hawke is a total nobody, and since s/he's with Red Irons no longer, I doubt that Meeran's protection would still apply. And even if it did, it would be immediately withdrawn if Hawke did anything as stupid as displaying magic abilities in public or even in front of a Templar. - Besides, isn't Bethany taken away in the end? Wealth and status obviously are not enough. Ygrain (talk) 08:59, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

While I too would have liked to see a bit more distinction in Mage Hawke's experiences in Kirkwall, Templar capital of the world (excepting perhaps Orlais, seat of the Chantry's power and all), I see a lot of complaints here that can be explained away, that is, if you're willing to explain them away.

Robes: Common to the fantasy games by virtue of becoming common in Fantasy Literature. By my understanding this started with authors such as J.R.R Tolkien depicting wizards in a fashion similar to the mortal disguise used by Odin in Norse mythology (Odin being, among other things, a god of Magic). The reason for robes being the chosen attire was precisely because they were alleged to be a common, and therefore, an unassuming garment used by the all powerful traveler to blend in with an unsuspecting populace. Problem with the fantasy game perspective is that they often adopt it as a completely unique-to-mages attire, thus they become too easily identified at a glance. Easy fix, just have more people wearing robes, or recognize that outside the games mechanics, robes would be worn by more than just magi and be a little more varied in appearance (outside of uniforms like the Circle uses).

Staves: Would be a dubious give away were it not for 80% of all staves Hawke & Co. use looking like Spears, Morning Stars, Halberds, and Picks. Only Mage Staves that look like Staves alone are; the ones all apostates everywhere use (who are not part of Hawke's crew), Bethany's late game staff, Orsino's, and Cold-Blooded (least off the top of my head). The rest, well, they all look like Pole-arm weapons and the like (except they shoot fire). Hell, in that facebook DA game the version of Hawke that appears is a warrior that uses the Staff of Parthalan (and wears the champion robes incidentally).

Anders, Hawke, and Merril staying out of sight: Kirkwall is a huge city state, the areas you visit composing only a very small portion of it. Can't be easy for any group that lacks a sophisticated communication/transport system to cover effectivly, especially a group that (by Cullen's admission) is not a very welcome sight by even the common populace. Also, people don't care about elves, Darktown is a cesspit that probably few people would go to willingly, let alone patrol regularly, and any organization has members who can be bought. Though even on that last note the templars are supposed to be less a police force and more a collective of overzealous inquisitors, barring a few members who pity their charges.

Honestly my biggest issue with mages in the game comes more from the contradictions in DA2 over DA:O. Mages cannot inherit a noble title (possibly ignored because Hawke doesn't seem to actually gain a noble title, just the Champion title). Warden's keep implied summoning demons is difficult and treacherous, yet pretty much every friggin group of apostates is gating in armies of the bloody things, who I might add are not trying to kill/possess their summoners. Also why do abominations sometimes just rise from the ground during a fight?! They're supposed to be recently possesed mages by lesser demons aren't they? Gahh, I'm starting to think too much about this. I'll finish by saying the only thing I think really should have been addressed more was Hawke and friends using magic openly in front of the likes of Cullen, Thrask, and any other templars you weren't killing and then not having them mention it in the slightest. Meredith at least comments on how you are a mage in your first meeting with her. --174.3.126.170 (talk) 10:37, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

Let me give you an explanation for everything in one sentence: The game was half-a**ed--SJD2342 (talk) 11:14, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

If playing as a mage resulted in more of a restricted gameplay, as opposed to warrior or rogue, I'm guessing a lot of people would be turned off playing as a mage. Some would prefer the increased immersion, but some would find it tedious. And they've steered this more towards an action liking audience so it would go against that idea. I just took it as because you'd been doing some good deeds they didn't go after you, isn't it spoken of at some point? Then especially when you become champion, you're now known, but you're also known as someone doing right by the general community. In a good guy play through anyway. S13Kuro (talk) 12:41, May 17, 2011 (UTC)

The restrictions on the use of spells and outfit would apply to all mages, not just Hawke, and if they were performed automatically, they wouldn't be much of a bother, and with cleverly distributed quests so that the use of magic was not, in fact, essential in the restricted areas, it wouldn't make the gameplay any more problematic for a mage Hawke as compared to other classes. All that had to be done was adding a couple of lines here and there indicating that Hawke's magic was noticed but intetionally overlooked. Performing beneficial acts wouldn't be enough to keep Templars at bay - after all, Anders was doing very beneficial work at his clinic, and still he was in an imminent danger if revealed. - Basically, Bioware fell here into a trap of their own making - first they devise a place that is extremely hostile to magic users, and then let you use magic (not just mage Hawke but the other party members, as well) on a regular basis and without any consequences at all. Would it be too much to expect a couple of cosmetic changes so that the discrepancy between the setting and the gameplay wouldn't be so striking? Ygrain (talk) 16:07, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

One more idea how to increase immersion: after the fight in an area where the use of magic is not safe, there could be a cutscene with one of the party members saying something like "let's get out of here, the show was bound to draw attention", and then show the party disappearing in a side alley just as Templars are arriving to investigate. Ygrain (talk) 17:11, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

Itt was already OBvIOUS when we were using Magical SPELLs at the Gallows when we frist arrived from the Boat. We were using sPells rite in front of tme TeMPLARS. YEt he THNAKED us without saying anything AND went to find GAMLEN for us THEn Let us in1!. THAts so WEIRD1 -PierceTheTruth

It is unfortunate, but it would seem a Haxzor Demon has possessed you, and I am left with no choice but to destroy you S13Kuro (talk) 10:22, May 17, 2011 (UTC)

Indeed.Please write like a normal person.It bothers the hell out of a lot of us.Spelling,capitalizing and punctuation should not be messed with.--SJD2342 (talk) 10:44, May 17, 2011 (UTC)

Keep forgetting to sign my posts on here =S Yeah I get ya, I just mean in comparison to the other classes you can play as. If you can do whatever you like in an area as a warrior or rogue, but not as a mage, it could render some people a bit cheesed with it, so I think they have just binned the idea, if they'd had it, just to make it more enjoyable for the masses. Yeah that could be a decent idea. But in the end, having it be made clear that mages can't use any magic in the city for fear of persecution, would give it a sense of danger whenever you have one in the party etc. And maybe there are specialised ways to go about escaping without killing pursuers? And these could be used against hostile Templars at any time? Could even by the focus of your fighting at the very end if you side with the mages but don't want to have to kill Templars. S13Kuro (talk) 12:41, May 17, 2011 (UTC)

"specialized ways to go about escaping" - I think I quite like the idea that you, say, take a sharp turn into an alley, pull a lever as you go by... and the pursuing Templars fall into a sewer which, as if magically, opened just under their feet. If they redesigned the usual gore splatter in brown, it would look very realistic :-)) Ygrain (talk) 12:51, May 17, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah stuff like that. And if mages could use their immobilisation spells like petrify, maybe once its cast a cutscene follows of the guys getting awayS13Kuro (talk) 14:44, May 17, 2011 (UTC)

Oh yes, any good architect immediately thinks ”This town certainly needs more pits of doom. Perhaps a spike trap operated by a lever would make this ally far livelier, and then a small garden at then end to make it feel more natural.” Certainly adds to the immersion and believability to the setting.

I can tell you that ever since I got that pot of boiling oil over my door, I never get any salesmen trying to sell me alarms or cameras anymore! I mean, don’t everyone keep death-traps around their house? Neighbours have been giving me strange looks ever since I replaced the front fence with barbed wire and a minefield though… but I guess they just miss my roses? Anyhow, I’m off to rig some remote detonated explosives to my car, and mailbox, just in case. – Kerethos (talk) 15:00, May 17, 2011 (UTC)

Sarcasm isn't exactly needed here.These are just possibilities anyway.And spikes are not mentioned anyway.That was supposed to be a ditch.--SJD2342 (talk) 15:04, May 17, 2011 (UTC)

The thing with medieval cities is that they rarely, if ever, had an architect, so you're probably right - there would hardly be sewer trapdoors since there would be no sewers at all. Meaning, all you'd have to do to see a couple of Templars all smeared in excrement would be a string across the said alley entrance :-) - Seriously, I was just kidding. A typical medieval city, with its maze of winding streets and alleys, would offer tons of opportunities to escape pursuit. A farmer's cart pulled by a stubborn mule would block any path for hours. Ygrain (talk) 15:18, May 17, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I just chose some sarcasm as a blunt way to steer the whole thing away from "lever operated pitfalls into the sewers". But, there are few occasions where you actually use magic in the middle of the day, in front of people, and more importantly you don't leave any enemy survivors to take revenge on you later. The only big “why doesn’t he seem to notice” is when you first meet Cullen, but this could be that he’s too busy fighting the demons and abominations to take notes on who does the actual spellcasting – since their all attacking him with magic and melee attacks.

Later on it’s shown that he is aware that Anders is a mage, but he chooses to overlook it at the time. He even argues with Anders, referring to him as “mage”, if you confront him with Ser Alrik’s notes, which most likely means that he’s somehow prevented to take actions, possibly because he’s under order not to cross Hawke. The reason for this is:

1. Once you’re a noble, you’re offered some protection by your status.
2. More importantly you’re working for the Viscount – and since you’re the only one the Arishok will talk to you’ve become rather essential, and thus worth keeping out of the Gallows.

And once that’s done, you’ve become The Champion, making you near untouchable. – Kerethos (talk) 16:00, May 17, 2011 (UTC)