We always hear about how the Grey Wardens have about 40 years to live, but that's really not true. What's true is the Grey Wardens start to hear the calls of the old god when they reach middle age then they go off to fight Darkspawn in the deep roads until they die.
But what happens if they don't die down there. We've seen plenty of examples of Grey Wardens that have lived long after they should have. Bregen, Utha, Avernus, Larius, I think you could even make an example out of Sophia Dryden since her body never decayed, it looked rather tainted, actually.
Perhaps a Grey Warden can starve and die early on in life, but once the taint starts to progress, does it begin to sustain them like it does Darkspawn? If a Warden never goes on its Calling, and they manage to avoid Blight lands and Darkspawn seeking them out, will they ever die?
Insight from those that read the calling would be good, since we know what happened to Bregen's body because of the taint and a little aid from the Architect.
No spoilers from anything after Maric rescues Fiona in the Fade if you would, please. HomelyDrugAddict (talk) 22:13, October 4, 2011 (UTC)
Well thats just it, they had the aid of the Architect. Most Grey Wardens dont get this or even would decided if they had the chance. I wouldnt call them immortal seeing as how only those few had the aid from the Architect no other Grey Wardens have. To live much longer if anything they would need to, but not many would be willing to do this. If they dont, no matter what theyll die from the taint. Whether they go down to the Deep Roads or not the taint will eventually "catch up" with their bodies (as explained by Alistair for example), theyll just not die necessarily from the darkspawn themselves. Though granted that is one they can. WhiteClaudia (talk) 22:29, October 4, 2011 (UTC)
- What about Larius then?HomelyDrugAddict (talk) 23:22, October 4, 2011 (UTC)
Larius is kind of the odd ball in this situation to me. To me, theres a lot about him we dont know. He's practically on the verge of becoming a ghoul since he hasnt. Besides him, the average Grey Warden eventually either dies from darkspawn or the taint (Larius not being your average Grey Warden.) Though I really do find this an interesting theory to come by! Granted I really dont know ALL that much about Larius besides that he was a Grey Warden, a fairly old one at that who was imprisoned for a long time and that surprisingly the taint hasnt caught up with him. So correct me if Im wrong but Im think theres something about him that isnt said that has made him live this long, that makes him different than the others. I kind of hope we see more of him as it seems interesting to find out. Along with the others! I loved the fact that we saw some of these guys in Awakening though didnt learn much more about them. WhiteClaudia (talk) 00:13, October 5, 2011 (UTC)
Just to tag on to this discussion, I was wondering if the darkspawn die of old age or not? If they don't die of old age, (for example the Ancient Darkspawn that we encounter in the Deep Roads in DAO) then I do not see any reason for Grey Wardens to not be "immortal", provided they avoid the calling. --216.165.198.93 (talk) 00:28, October 5, 2011 (UTC)
- http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Darkspawn_lifespan This was discussed, and it's a general consensus is that they live until they're killed, considering that is part of what led me to this theory. HomelyDrugAddict (talk)
I think it is entirely reasonable to assume that a Warden can become immortal, in the sense that old age or hunger or sickness etc doesn't claim them. But that they can die due to injury and accident etc. I also think there is ground laid in the franchise for the Wardens to maintain "their humanity" and mental faculties much longer than previously thought (eg Larius). Basically I think it is reasonable to assume that this could all be on a case by case basis. Just as each human has a basic lifespan estimate, but different contributors can shorten or extend that lifespan. Zambingo (talk) 00:40, October 5, 2011 (UTC)
Ok, now Im confused. Maybe someone can help me. Haha Alistair explains at some point in Origins that every or in the case now the average Grey Warden will eventually die due the amount of darkspawn taint in their bodies. So I was under the realizaiton that if they arent already killed by darkspawn or such their death will come due to the taint. And that this taint makes them live a shorter life. But Larius is walking example of how this isnt true. So, is what Alistair said wrong? Or did I misunderstand him? WhiteClaudia (talk) 01:40, October 5, 2011 (UTC)~
- Alistair assumes that's why they go into the Deep Roads, that they'll die in horrible pain otherwise. You're going by what Alistair was told by someone else, who was told by someone else, who was told by someone else. Wardens lie a lot too, even to their own. They misguide the fuck out of people when it comes to the consequences of the joining, why not misguide them otherwise if need be? Afterall, the idea of immortality could be quite appealing, even if you know its consequences, some fool might join the Wardens just for it, then when he begins to go mad and gets sick, he ignores his calling and tries to continue to live amongst humanity, spreading the Darkspawn plague and perhaps thinking that with their now all but infinite lifespan they can somehow find a way to get past the sickness that the taint brings and live forever a healthy man. Duncan may have even told Alistair that the taint would kill him himself, not wanting Alistair to fall down the path that he saw happen to Utha, Bregen, Kell, and Genevieve. HomelyDrugAddict (talk) 02:28, October 5, 2011 (UTC)
By the way, who created the Joining? LordDunker (talk) 01:43, October 5, 2011 (UTC)
- My memory is a little foggy on this, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong. To the best of my understanding, the original Grey Wardens were Anderfel soldiers who defected to dedicate themselves to stopping the blight. Although none of this original group survived the battle with Dumat, the dragon was slain. I don't know how the joining was created, or who created it (Probably a mage), but I would bet that they were a part of that group. (On a side note, has anyone ever noticed that the old gods are male high dragons, but the codex says that only females reach that stage of developement? Weird.) 173.21.194.202 (talk) 13:52, October 23, 2011 (UTC)
I would assume there was a failed attempt at killing Dumat and someone thus figured out afterward that the taint was needed to attract his essence. --NecroFeelYa (talk) 03:23, October 5, 2011 (UTC)
A bunch of old men and mages from tervinter created the joining after cutting off their ties to the world or something like that. (I don't know how to sign or anything and don't have an account here so if someone can tell me how afterwards it would be appreciated)
- Leave 4 tildes(~) after your post and it will insert your signature.174.45.9.40 (talk) 04:43, October 5, 2011 (UTC)
I agree that Larius seems to be something of an oddity in the length of his survival. Perhaps there's something about the calling/song transmitted by Corypheus (the one which affects Anders so much) that sustanined Larius? NickyStuu (talk) 09:38, October 5, 2011 (UTC)
But they need the blood of a archdemon for the joining, unless the first joining was a raw version of the actual joining that doesnt need that blood, only darkspawn blood and perhaps the new joining dont transform the warden into a ghoul because after the calling they leave for the deep roads and nobody know what happens to they. LordDunker (talk) 15:21, October 5, 2011 (UTC)
Rank-and-file Grey Wardens are not immortal. The taint compels them to seek out darkspawn as ghouls, which they avoid by, well, killing darkspawn until they are killed themselves. Ghouls are not immortal either, in fact, they die shortly after getting to the darskpawn.
The Architect, as it is probably clear by now, is one of the original five magisters that brought the darkspawn taint into the world. He seems to have mastered it to a greater degree than Corypheus (possibly owing to, y'know, not spending a thousand years in a magical prison). It is possible that he aided Utha and such with the taint, as well as that accelerated taint thingy.
It is still a mystery as to who created the Joining itself. It is rather unlikely that a bunch of veteran knights would posess a deep enough knowledge of magic and the taint itself to devise it - there's no word of scholars among their number, only soldiers; at best, there were battlemages, but they're a long shot from what is necessary to create the Joining. It couldn't have been discovered by accident either, since mixing darkspawn blood with lyrium and drinking it is unlikely to happen accidentally.
As usual, I suspect the Architect. Apart from the name hinting at him engineering everything, it's likely that he aided the original Wardens, directly or indirectly. As he said in Awakening, the endless war against other peoples is as devastating to the darkspawn as it is to the peoples they fight. He might've been seeking a way to end it by removing the Archdemon. Well, if so, then he partially succeeded. Later on, he went to reap the benefits of the Wardens' existence, using the resistance to the Taint the Joining gives to free other darkspawn from the Calling. Sounds like what the Architect would do, at least. The only mystery is the thousand-year pause. Maybe he was trying to dig up the Old Gods and finish them in various ways, failing and unleashing the Blight every time?The Ranged Man (talk) 15:28, October 5, 2011 (UTC)
- Incorrect, the Architect didn't find out about the joining until the Commander of the Grey in Orlais before Bregen entered the deep roads and was captured. He's only known about the Joining for maybe 40 year. HomelyDrugAddict (talk) 21:37, October 5, 2011 (UTC)
Then who created this damned joining? I guess it is Flemeth's doing. LordDunker (talk) 22:35, October 5, 2011 (UTC)
- Why do you assume it's Flemeth? Anyhow, it'd be pretty hard to explain how the Joining was created, because frankly, it makes no fucking sense, how would anyone figure that out? I hope it remains a mystery forever personally, because any explanation they gave would have to be pretty stupid. Here's my theory that I just pulled out of my ass: A mage was fighting the archdemon with its darkspawn minions around, it went to drink a lyrium potion, and with all the combat going on around him, dark spawn blood flew into his mouth, along with some of Dumat's, and then he became a Grey Warden, case closed, as stupid an explanation as any! HomelyDrugAddict (talk) 00:03, October 6, 2011 (UTC)
Then the archedemon killed him, because after him drinked the blood, he passed out, every warden passes out and how the mage could remember what entered into his mouth? I still guess that Flemeth created the joining. LordDunker (talk) 00:28, October 6, 2011
(I may not have accurate lore but i have a theory). I believe the joining was founded by several soldiers who were fighting Dumat. They realised that everytime they killed him (yes they succeeded) but everytime they did he simply "ressurected" via possessing a nearby darkspawn. Prehaps after fighting many darkspawn, a few might have even accidentally got tainted by getting blood from the darkspawn they were killing in open wounds or even in their mouths as they were fighting (i suppose it could get messy), sure a few of them would have obviously died from the taint, but prehaps some soldiers were able to survive and started to develop their ability to "sense" the darkspawn. One of said soldiers might have realised that Dumat can possess darkspawn due to their connection with the taint, Prehaps a Human/elf/dwarf that is tainted can yield a differant result, It would have been a LOOOONGSHOT but after 90 years of fighting a losing battle any idea then nothing would sound good. After they defeated Dumat the ones who survived might have studied ways on how to develop the taint without turning you into a ghoul (to little to slowly) or outright kill you (to much to fast) so that future generation could also kill archdemons. I also doubt that creating the Joining ritual would have been something that took an hour to think up, prob took much trail and error and alot of dead test subjects to get the recipe right. (Joining ritual recipe, 1/2 of a cup darkspawn blood (any kind but shriek is tastiest), 1/2 tablespoon lirium dust, 1 drop archdemon blood, mix well and serve immediatly in silver goblet, serves 1). 123.2.70.12 (talk) 02:27, October 6, 2011 (UTC)
Archdemon blood is the best thing to use for the joining but you CAN use darkspawn blood if it's enhanced with magic. Normally it doesn't carry enough taint to work although if there's no Archdemon blood you can use it. And it was said that it was old tervinter people who became the first wardens. Now the little details are probably (For now) not important to tell as in exactly how they found out but.. Yeah. But also it could have been found out by accident at first too. Someone got darkspawn/archdemon blood mixed with theirs and some mage tried everything to save him/her and discovered the first (Pseudo) joining. 69.118.86.189 (talk) 03:26, October 6, 2011 (UTC)
I don't see why the first Joining couldn't have been figured out by some mages. They could have fought the archdemon and many died to obtain his blood, but they did so. I mean, it just needs his blood, not his life and I'm sure they tried to kill the archdemon before they figured out the Joining. Anyway finding this conversation interesting, please continue :D And if the Architect is an old magister, then I feel really bad for letting him live. Xelestial (talk) 15:44, October 6, 2011 (UTC)
What if the Maker created the Joining? He saw the world being destroyed by Darkspawn and then he sent something or someone to help the people of Thedas, then the Grey Wardens are holy warriors, keepers of the world. LordDunker (talk) 16:43, October 6, 2011 (UTC)
I find it rather pointless to speculate on how The Joining ritual came to be. It is highly implied to have been discovered accidentally (did not Duncan claim that "the first Wardens somehow managed to mix and consume darkspawn-blood and lyrium" (sic)?), and its unrefined
nature seems to support this. Weirder things have been discovered/created by accident in real life.
Also, I find it odd that no-one has thought of evoking the research of Avernus. As I have said, the Joining in its present form is crude and inefficient. Through his research, Avernus (who seems to be much older and saner (albeit rather cynical) than Larius) has been able to artificially lengthen his life and apparently avoid the calling. He also hints at even greater possibilities that seem to go further even than those discovered later by the Architect. Whether this implies immortality or just bad-assness (or both!) remains to be seen. Emil Olai (talk) 21:49, October 6, 2011 (UTC)
Several Things. (I'll list them for convenience) 1.) Yes, Dumat was slain several times before the joining was discovered.This is supported both through dialogue with Riordan and the Codex. 2.) No Flemeth is not an old god. She doesn't carry or spread the taint, for one thing. For another, if she were an old god, why would she perish because of a blight? And lastly (for ow) why is Flemeth not trapped within the deep roads? 3.) I do not believe thee Architect is an original magister (see my psosts on Is Architect Like Corypheus?) so he can't have had any part in the creation of the joining. This is without even considering that he first learns of the Joining in the Calling. 4.) To quote Meredith: "ONe does not conjure such a ritual out of thin air!" 5.) It is explicitly stated that the first blight raged for hundreds of years before the Grey Wardens came. Why is it so Implausible that soldiers (with the help of mages) have sufficient knowledge to engineer such a ritual through trial and error? 6.) The maker had abandoned the mortal world at this point and is not scheduled to return until Andranste and the exalted march. 7.) Not every warden passes out after taking the joining. Take Oghren, for example. 8.) In summary, the joining was discovered by a group of soldiers with the help of mages after teh first blight had raged for hundreds of years and Dumat had been slain several times to no avail.
- Sorry if thes seemed a little scatter-brained, I listed them in the order they occurred to me. 173.21.194.202 (talk) 16:07, October 23, 2011 (UTC)
Doesn't they say that once the Warden who has heard the calling has left they are considered dead? The other wardens seem surprised by Larius when they see him and wonders why he is still alive, let alone sane-ish. By what I gathered from the conversations in Legacy it seems that the Wardens are considered dead as soon as they leave, and that if they don't die fighting, they eventually go mad by the taint. Pretty much like Tamlen in DA:O. He remembers, but the taint have eventually eaten away his mind. All he wish for is death and a release from his pain and the knowledge of what he had become. And as a Warden, wouldn't that be the very main reason to die before they go mad by the song and taint? So, unless you are concerned about being mad for the rest of eternity I guess a warden could be "immortal" but then you will have to consider what that entails.--Ser Mea (talk) 07:32, October 23, 2011 (UTC)
This taint is like the spirit-eater curse from Mask of the Betrayer but this one has a cure. Maybe there is a ritual or a potion that can "clean" the taint of a warden. LordDunker (talk) 15:35, October 23, 2011 (UTC)
its quite obvious since grey wardens are usually gone to their calling and the turn into ghouls since after the joining once your one of them you only have 20-30 more years to live
- Turning into a ghoul doesn't mean you die, it means you lose your mind. But somehow people like Larius and Avernus kept most of their minds, especially the latter. 72.188.148.61 (talk) 13:32, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
I think they would be immortal though because the taint takes away all impulses including hunger. In this case it also removes the need to feed, so ultimately they would not decay or rot because darkspawn are just that decay and rot. Its just as bregan in The Calling didn't feel the need to eat, but was simply influenced by the call of the old gods. It is in this way that the grey wardens are immortal because if they find a way to remove the calling from the plan they will not decay (i.e Fiona dosent have to worry about the calling so she will never die) ElvenBattlemage17