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Hey all; this is my first time making a topic! :D I just started my fifth mage file in Dragon Age II and I am completely and utterly annoyed and fed up with Carver. I absolutely hate his character; he is a sniveling, little brat who whines about every little thing. Even when he's a Templar or a Warden. I accidently killed him on my first playthrough and made him go to the Deep Roads with me; Anders wasn't in my party and he died. I enjoyed that playthrough a lot more than I did when I made him a Templar and a Warden. I found my last playthrough highly enjoyable without him and I'm probably going to kill him again.

Am I the only one who can't stand him? --Sjelen Kain (talk) 04:17, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

I can't stand him either, that's one reason why I don't replay DA 2 a lot with a mage. Shame too cause I like the gameplay mechanics of a mage in DA 2. MabariChariot (talk) 04:23, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

If you're the aggressive type Hawke, Carver actually has a lot less complaining to do than the other two types. Whether it's because he agrees with you more, or because he's afraid of you putting your foot down, I've found that being a hard-liner makes Carver a lot more agreeable with you. He's nowhere near as understanding as Bethany, not by any stretch, but neither does he let loose the whiney, sniveling sibling as much. Rathian Warrior (talk) 04:28, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Carver is one of my favorite characters, which is nice because I prefer to play as a mage. I hope he is a companion in DA3. Along with Bethany based on Hawke's class imports to DA3. Tommyspa (talk) 04:30, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

I. Effing. Love. Carver.

That's all.

Mrs.AlistairTheirin 04:32, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Carver is so much more interesting a character than Beth. Beth is a bit of a Mary Sue while Carver is flawed. Yes he's a bit of a brat, but I can see his reasons, it can't be easy being a none mage when you farther and both siblings are, or being stuck in the shadow of an older sibling who is just better that you (Luigi complex?). Also his character arc is much better than Beth's. He gets over him self pretty fast after becoming a warden. and the fact that he chooses Hawke over the Templars says he's not a complete dick. I do love Beth and if I had to choose who the ogre terned into mush 6 out of 10 times it would be her, but some times you need a bit of family conflict to keep things interesting. Andy the Black (talk) 05:00, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

How the heck is Bethany a Mary Sue? Nothing special or great about her. Xelestial (talk) 20:35, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
Short version? She has big boobs and plenty of cleavage, and she is subjectively the hottest girl in the game and also the "getability" of a girl with low self-esteem. That's enough for people. Tommyspa (talk) 22:37, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
She's pretty enough, but that's subjective as you said, and she's the player's sister. And besides the fake intro, Isabela has bigger ones than her, and I think hers are as big as the default female human model. I wouldn't say she has low self esteem at all, she's just inexperienced in matters of love, so basically I would have to disagree with the "Mary Sue" thing. Actually, Merrill for instance has lower self esteem and some people may consider her pretty but that doesn't mean she is a Mary Sue. Xelestial (talk) 23:01, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
Well, Act 1 she's full of self pity "mage pity and regret" and all that. She finds peace in the circle but she ends up so "un-Anders" is the only poor analogy I can think of as a mage. (it hurt in my Bethany circle playthrough to see it, I wanted a renegade interrupt to bitch slap her, like Shepard's "I've had enough of your disingenuous assertions." punch) And as a Warden, she's caught up in the "I'm dead already" thing. Maybe Mary Sue was used as loosely based on its definition, like a lot of things in our language that we use that don't directly relate to the dictionary. Our own interpretations. God, I like Carver more as a character... Tommyspa (talk) 23:14, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
Oh Shepards "I've had enough of your disingenuous assertions." I love you. Erm, anyway Warden Bethany caused that reaction with me, not so much Circle Bethany. I guess I understood her. She was tired of running and being scared and getting her family in trouble and now that was all over. She does buck up though, and support the mages of course at the very end, and pretty much agrees with Anders that the Maker gave her her powers so how can they be wrong. Anyway, I disgress. I just see Mary Sue used incorrectly a lot, thrown around a lot, especially with DA2. The only Mary Sue I really see is Hawke. Xelestial (talk) 23:33, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
I'd go with F!Hawke being a Mary Sue, possibly even Sassy Gay Hawkeas well. Tommyspa (talk) 23:42, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
Omg, I love Sassy Gay Hawke! "You stupid beyitch!" XD Er, not sure how we got here, so I'll stop responding now :3 02:16, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

I personally loved Carver, and I want him as a full-time companion in Dragon Age 3, along with Bethany, depending on your Imported Save.Soren 4ever (talk) 06:38, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

I don't like him. I understand why he is like that, but I already have to deal with Fenris and Anders. Too much complaining. I hope I won't see them again.--Appleseater (talk) 09:39, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, Carver is the most annoying character in the world of dragon age but I think the one thing that pissed me off the most about him was that you couldnt kill him!!! He could die if you brought him down to the deep roads but its not the same. I liked Bethany and I discovered you had the option to kill her if she is in the circle and you side with the templars (I didnt kill her) But when you side with the mages you cant kill Carver, and this pissed me off since Carver annoyed me a thousand times more than Bethany.

When I came out to face the templars I was like: "Ok, we got the crazy bitch Meredith, the racist asshole Cullen and my annoying brother, time for slaughter" >:)

And then the guy does the one thing that could make me hate him even more! Siding with me, making it impossible for me to kill him! Is there any way to kill Carver? If so please tell me Blighter (talk) 10:05, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

I hate his whining, but I find him far more interesting as a character than Bethany. Beth is kind of annoying me with her goody-two-shoes character, I actually love the banter between Carver and Hawke, they love each other yet can't stand each other, I find it very fun to play through. But yes, as people say, when you bring Carver, Anders and Fenris in one party it sort of gets REALLY old REALLY fast.--Ser Mea (talk) 10:46, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

I like Carver more than Bethany, because he can have one of the best character developments throughout the game. Sure he is an annoying brat in Act 1 and constantly complains about Hawke and mages, but he has his really honest moments from time to time. For example when he says that he feels kind of lost in Kirkwall and has to find his own way, or when he defends mage Hawke after Fenris' quest without a second thought, or how he thanks Hawke for showing him what his name meant for Malcolm. And if you make him a Warden, he can warm up to Hawke even more, especially in the Legacy DLC, by the end of which I always have him on the friendship side of the relationship meter.--SunyiNyufi (talk) 10:58, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

I like Carver. I like the rivalry between Carver and Hawke, and how it develops from rivalry to respect by the end of the game. I always take Carver and Anders on the Deep Roads Expedition so he can become a Grey Warden; I think getting out from under Hawke's shadow does Carver a lot of good. I like the Legacy DLC because you can take Carver along with you, and the next time I play Mark of the Assassin I plan on taking Carver along. And at the end, when he returns Carver always has a place in my party. Gruedragon (talk) 13:05, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

I like Carver, but i HATE that you can only get full friendship with him by contradicting yourself as a mage. Trypon (talk) 14:36, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Carver can be a douche but he's also just a kid in the beginning when he becomes a warden then he pulls his head outta his bum. I liked him. Not to mention he's sexy as hell --GrimsleyHawke (talk) 15:18, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

My first playthrough I was a a mage. At first, I found Carver incredibly annoying always whining and complaining about how he was the lesser sibling. However, I made him a Grey Warden (unintentionally), and when his character came back I liked what I saw. In my opinion, Carver is one of the few characters in DA2 who actually matures. As a templar or as a Grey Warden he finally takes responsibility for himself. There is always a hint of that rivalry, but it's toned down and Carver really does care for Hawke. I followed this up with a rogue playthrough to check out Bethany. I was bored. She's a sweet, but boring character. And I didn't like the way she matured, as a circle mage or a Grey Warden. In the Circle she becomes complacent and as a Warden she becomes bitchy and pissed at the world and Hawke. I prefer Carver as a character, and the fact that he matures and we see a change in his ways was a stark contrast to...a few other characters who no amount of reasoning will change their stance. You know who they are.GoldenNightKnight (talk) 15:20, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

I really appreciate Carver's character, he is one of my personal favourite Bioware characters. Well if he becomes a Grey Warden. When he becomes a Warden he seems to greatly mature, he understands the world a little bit more now. And his conversations with you in Legacy are amazing!--TheRageMage (talk) 17:18, November 4, 2011 (UTC)TheRageMage

Carver is a way better character than Bethany. Glad to see so many people agree!
20px-3431068.png Tekka Ijuin | Talk 
00:29, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

I like him more than Bethany, but I still can't stand the little *&$#er. Everyone makes good points about him growing and that's all true, kind of. He still has a huge chip on his shoulder toward Hawke, even after he gets out with the Wardens (maybe it's different with a Friendship playthrough, but I always end up with Rivalry). Whenever I meet up with him either in the Deep Roads (in the finding Nathanial quest) or in Lowtown during the Qunari invasion, he's a total jacka**. Devilkat (talk) 01:03, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Carver continues a long standing BioWare tradition of first human male companion always sucks, a tradition going back at least as far as Knights of the Old Republic. There are exceptions of course, our friend Alistair being one. Wsowen02 (talk) 07:24, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

I, too, prefer Carver. Nothing's wrong with siblings fighting between themselves when it's apparent that they'd die for each other if need be. Definitely better dynamic than Bethany "I graduated from Keanu Reeves school of acting" Hawke's. Dorquemada (talk) 12:12, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Your comment made me snort soup up my nose. I appreciate this post. --Nettie Amell (talk) 21:06, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

Same here; I prefer Carver significantly more than Bethany. Carver acts like, as he himself says, "an ass" during the first course of the game before the Deep Roads. But if he becomes a warden/templar, he begins to mature and learns from his own mistakes, even more so if he's a warden. Plus, it's not entirely impossible to not get a good amount of friendship from him, even if you're very pro-mage: just show him some respect, be firm in your objections with him, and pretty much treat every conversation with him the same way you did with Sten in Origins. Bethany on the other hand, is very bland in retrospective; there's practically no effort involved when getting her friendship up unless you are completely pro-templar, she becomes too complacent if she joins the circle, and if she joins the wardens she becomes a bitter, ungrateful bitch who blames everything on you despite your approval rating of her, and who chooses to do nothing but wallow in her self-hatred as both a mage and a warden rather than make the best of what life has thrown at her and grow from it. And this choice alone had me fuming for hours since I would rather send her to the wardens than submit her to the circle and ruin everything Leandra and Malcolm worked so hard to protect her from, but unfortunately she is apparently "happier" in the circle, so I usually send her there. At least with Carver by the end of the game I feel proud in the choice I had made in sending him to the Wardens, whereas with Bethany I just feel annoyed that it takes her so long to appreciate the freedom she had before coming to the circle; I could have told her that without having to send her there. In short, I would take Caver over Bethany any day; at least Carver has some life in him and makes me work for his approval. Sevarian10 (talk) 20:04, November 5, 2011 (UTC)Sevarian10

Carver does annoy me, but he provides the much needed conflict a lot of us crave. He also goes through a lot of character growth if you let him and I have to say I grew to love him equally as much as my favorite sister ever Bethany. It's great to begin to understand him and see him mature. I'm still working on that actually, as I have never really explored all the depths of his personality yet. Plus, whenever he's at his most annoying Hawke usually either gets into a fight with him or makes him shut up, so we get some satisfaction. I do like Bethany too because she feels like the sister I never had (and I have 5 sisters technically). She cares about Hawke and her family and she is a very sweet and innocent girl, but she's also strong and matures in her own way as well. Only time I hate Bethany is if you make her a Warden. Bethany the Warden is an abomination (no pun intended?) I just wish we could have had both of them around us for awhile, it'd be interesting to see how the twins acted with each other and to interact with them. Xelestial (talk) 20:35, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Being the eldest of 4, I understand female (mage) Hawke protagonist relationship with Carver (or at least I think I do). And I have had the sniveling whining sibling and for no matter how much you do they hate how perfect you (or they think you) are when your just trying to get by and not disgrace your family. I haven't tried Bethany cause I always play a mage but I might just to escape another brat in my life :P or just never party with him if I can help it :P  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 22:59, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

I don't find him to be that bad, I can deal with the whiney sibling attitude(likely because I am used to just that) the thing I can't deal with is the overly corny antics of characters like varic. If he says "damn hawke you do get results" one more time I am going to shove his oversized crossbow up his own ass...yes even though it's a collectible as the last one in existence. (talk) 00:17, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

Strange you can stand whininess but not jokes. Xelestial (talk) 02:16, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
The typical definition of a joke is something that is funny. (talk) 02:29, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
I think a better definition is something that is SUPPOSED to cause amusement, as people have differing definitions on what is funny. Xelestial (talk) 02:31, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
Are you two seriously debating what a joke is?
Not really debating, just clarifying why I think he doesn't like Varric. Xelestial (talk) 17:13, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

Anyway, to me Carver is okay. Then again, I am also a laid back person and it is very hard for any characters to get on my bad side. Except for Petrice, who was a complete and utter *****. I like Bethany more, but Carver is alright, and you certainly won't catch me not playing a mage just to avoid him. --Isolationistmagi (talk) 02:35, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

Carver is a bitch. He only became a templar because he wanted to be important. That's a good reason to choose a profession!

"Hello sir, I see you're a doctor. You must love helping people."
"Actually, no. I just wanted to be important. I could give two shits about my patients."

Seriously, his first act as a templar is not turning in his sibling! Shows you how much he believes in what he's doing, doesn't it? LVTDUDE (talk) 02:44, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

Just how much attention did you pay to Carver's dialogue? And since when does valueing family over a job make you a bad person? --Isolationistmagi (talk) 02:49, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
See that's a joke... (talk) 03:00, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

A job is something you do to put food on the table. It doesn't really matter what it is. Being a templar isn't just a job, it is something you do because you have a certain set of beliefs. Someone doesn't become a minister if he doesn't believe in the religion. You're basically saying that if you become a police officer, and your brother is a drug dealer or murderer, it's okay to look the other way, because he's family. That's pathetic. LVTDUDE (talk) 03:12, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

Let me put this in perspective. I'm a Licensed Veterinary Technician. I believe that Veterinary medicine helps pets, and that people should take care of their pets, and that I need to be an advocate for pets. If my brother isn't getting his dog vaccinated, I'm going to tell him why he should get her vaccinated. If he's beating his dog, I'm going to do everything in my power to make him stop, including calling the cops on him, if need be. I don't just ignore everything I believe in because he's my brother. LVTDUDE (talk) 03:17, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
Obviously you didn't read the codex about Templars in DAO or DAII, so it's not worth my time to try convincing you that you're wrong. Also, thank you for answering my rhetorical question in such a cut and dry way whilst simultaneously trying to put words in my mouth. I never said that, not at all, YOU did, my friend. There are obviously more factors in play, but I'm guessing you missed that. I'm sorry I didn't clarify.--Isolationistmagi (talk) 03:49, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

That is to your first part. this is to your second:

You're not doing that because it's your job, you're doing it because you believe it is morally wrong to beat your pets, moreso than it is morally right to stand by your family. Conversely, Carver believes it is morally right to stand by his family, moreso than it is to do his duty as a templar. Morals complicate everything in case you don't know, and if you want me to put it in perspective, let me know, as that is a text wall I will not post without prompting. --Isolationistmagi (talk) 03:49, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

I didn't put words in your mouth. You asked when valuing family over a job makes you a bad person. I didn't say he was a bad person; I just implied that he doesn't believe in what he's doing. You put those words in my mouth. You were the one that responded to my post about Carver being a bitch. If I had been responding to your post above mine, and not the thread in general, I would have indented my response after yours, that's how the threads work. The thread asked "Annoyed by Carver?" I gave my reason for being annoyed. You must have assumed I was responding to you, for whatever reason. It was your rhetorical question that was not invited, not my critique of Carver. And, as long as you're acting like you know so much, IT IS MY JOB to be the advocate for animals. I took an oath to be their advocate when I became an LVT, just like a Doctor takes an oath. That responsibility doesn't end when I punch out for the day. LVTDUDE (talk) 06:23, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
If you're going to post your opinion on a forum, you should expect people to give opinions on it. ISN'T THAT WHAT THIS IS FOR!? I understand this, and have no problems with what fellow posters have to say. I tend to be more offended by how they say it. For instance, you could have simply disagreed with what I said about the job and Carver turning in Hawke, but instead you put the words in my mouth and then proceded to call it pathetic.
I didn't mean to say that you weren't a vet, but that is obviously the way you took it, and I apologize for that. What I meant was that you are not a vet for the hell of it, you are a vet because you believe in what you're doing. Being a Templar does not require that kind of conviction. It requires being able to do what you're told, the same as with any military order. Carver does not have to violate his beliefs to not turn in Hawke, he instead only has to question his orders enough to where he believes family is more important than orders.

I suppose I did put the words in your mouth first as you're right and you did not say it, but I managed not to do it in an offensive manner. Nonetheless, I apologize for doing that. --Isolationistmagi (talk) 07:08, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

My quick two cents.. But there is also a difference between a cop not turning in a drug dealing brother and just having a brother/sister who's 'crime' is basically just being born with magic. I'm sure if Hawke was in danger of being possessed it would be different.. (talk) 07:14, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

It's all perspective. To the templars, all mages are in danger of being possessed at any time. We as the game player have grown desensitized to possession, since in Kirkwall, it happens all the time. If possessions weren't a dime a dozen, perhaps we'd think they were more dangerous than a drug dealer. To the druggie, a drug dealer is "just supplying us with something that makes us feel" Which is the greater crime? It's in the eye of the beholder, I suppose. For what it's worth, I've never been religious, I don't like how the chantry treats mages, and if I were a mage, I would be an apostate. I see Carver as a whiny hypocrite. If he truly believed in what he was doing, turning in his sibling should have been his first order of business, since the templars should believe that the circle is a better place for a mage. He obviously doesn't believe in this basic tenet, if he thinks his sibling is better off being free. LVTDUDE (talk) 17:12, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
From the page Templar Order, "they are in fact an army unto themselves; well-equipped, highly disciplined and devoted to the destruction of non-believers in the name of the Maker." Carver's turning a blind eye shows a lack of discipline and devotion. LVTDUDE (talk) 17:27, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
Carver is actually using a loophole. He probley does believe in the circle but not to the same zealotry as say Meredith. He believes that the circle is there to protect the world from mages and vice versa. He sees the Hawke by no means is a major threat to the world and thus lets him roam free. Even Meredith admits to this in act 3 to a mage Hawke. Something similar happened to Malcom Hawke.CrowInvictus (talk)

It's funny, because it's Bethany who I can't stand. --Nettie Amell (talk) 07:39, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

Out of the two siblings, I vastly prefer Carver. Sure, Beth is nice, conciliating and pretty, but as petulant and childish as Carver can be, I still think he's a more interesting character. At least, when he's angry and conflictual, he's upfront about it, whereas Beth tends to be more insinuating and passive. Some of his lines make me laugh, and I really enjoy how he turns out as a Grey Warden. I don't want to involve the siblings in the Mage/Templar conflict, so they always become Wardens for me; especially Beth, in whose case there's practically a neon sign saying "if you leave her behind, the Circle will get her"...and the Kirkwall Circle is just NOT a good place to be, no matter what she may think about it. Still, she never quite seems to lose a certain resentment about being a Warden, whereas Carver mostly considers it as an opportunity to be his own man, which is something he really needs. Nilfalasiel (talk) 11:34, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

I have to say, I like how Carver was written, but I have a very deep-seated and bitter rivalry with him every time I play a mage in DA2. The only reason I think I put up with the guy is because he's my (in game) brother. If it weren't for that, I would have severed his head off in Act I.-XeroSnake (talk) 22:38, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

I absolutely HATED Carver for the longest time. Complains all through Act 1 and its annoying. I wish I could have let Bethany live. BUT then I played a Mage and let Carver join the Wardens(first time he died in the DR) and I freakin missed the dude. Bethany I can't stand anymore. I want a code or something for 360 so i can keep him in my party. It makes me sad he's gone :( Galen Guerrin (talk) 23:33, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Despite my dislike of DA2 Carver is one of my favorite characters. The sibling rivalry is just so cool it reminds me of myself and my brother lol. You can't really blame him either like others have said, how would you feel if you grew up one of the only people without powers in a family of mages? I's just realistic how he feels inferior to your character and matures throughout the game. Plus he carries a giant sword.... Although I really like Bethany too.MrRexfire (talk) 13:22, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

I tried to play nice to Carver I really did try. But he does not shut up. It's irritating hearing him whine all day about being nothing in act 1 and when I save his life by turning him over to the Grey Wardens he blames me. He only becomes nice towards the end of the game User:Edocrack.

I’m conflicted when it comes to Carver so this is going to be part pro-Carver and part anti-Carver.

I really like the guy he becomes after joining the Wardens. (I’ve always had him join the Wardens.) He’s funny, capable (as other party members point out), easy-going. Leaving Hawke allows him to become his own man and seems like a good guy to meet. Seeing how much he matures makes the DLC worth playing.

However, like most people, I can’t stand him during Act 1. I will always hold it against him what he says when Hawke calls him on not trying to step out of Hawke shadow. His (slightly paraphrased) reply is “we’ve seen what happens when someone steps out of your protective shadow.” My Hawke doesn’t let Lenadra get away with saying Bethany’s (or Carver’s) death is Hawke’s fault there is no way I would let Carver get away with it.

Ultimately, Carver falls into the category of people that are good to see in short visits\adventures and part ways for a time before one of you strangles the other. JKPackard (talk) 08:55, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

I found that both Carver and Bethany grow into neat characters. I prefer them as Mage/Templar over Wardens, I think it fits the story and characters better; Bethany becomes a teacher very quickly in the Circle and is respected even by Meredith, that's high praise. Bethany adjusts to being in the Circle and actually is quite jovial about it. Bethany hates being a Warden. Carver likes being a Warden, except for the early death thing. However he is pretty accepting of being a Templar, specially given his namesake. Carver mellows out a lot when he branches out into his career field, when he's a Templar you also get a sense that he's helping you behind the scenes (because you're a mage when you have him of course). Having the siblings at the Circle also gives drama and personal involvement to a Hawke in regards to the end game decision. Anyway, I think there is a lot to like/dislike about both. The term Mary Sue does not apply to them at all. Using it in their case shows a lack of understanding about that term. Zambingo (talk) 17:26, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

re: "the racist asshole Cullen"

Where in the heck does that come from, Blighter? Cullen is one of the more accepting and rational characters in the game. He's extremely religious and won't hesitate to go Dirty Harry on a fellow Templar he believes is "dirty", but racist? Where in the world?! Zambingo (talk) 17:26, November 17, 2011 (UTC)
I'm a huge fan of Cullen, myself, so I'm not trying to diss on the character, but Blighter could possibly have been referring to this bit of dialogue from Broken Circle. Emilia Amell (talk) 20:08, November 17, 2011 (UTC)
Hmm. That is harsh, but I'm not sure it could really be classed as racism. Something to consider however. Good point. Zambingo (talk) 17:09, November 18, 2011 (UTC)
Cullen is one of the most rational characters in the game? Really? I've said this before, I say it again: this guy belongs to a mental institution, next to Barthrand. The events of Fereldan Circle seemed to have too much impact on his fragile little templar mind. Now he goes "Argh!!! Abominations everywhere!!! The Horror!!! All mages are bad!!!" And he stops being Meredith's loyal lapdog only when she starts shooting red lightnings out of her eyes. You see, he was sent out to Kirkwall for a good reason - Greagoir wanted to get rid of the batshit zealot.---Algol- (talk) 07:08, November 18, 2011 (UTC)
I know that one of the epilogue slides can display that Cullen is crazy, but as far as I can tell that isn't canon. Just a possibility. But I will grant your point on this. However I never had that pop and in my playthru. The Cullen in my games was tormented by blood magic, survived, was initially very angry but then calmed down. Then in DA2 he displays the potential for stepping over the edge, but pulls himself back. In addition long before Meredith goes nuts Cullen shows he's considering how the treatment of mages could be wrong. When pushed on it, Cullen agrees that a new direction should be considered. Then later, when Meredith shows some crazy, Cullen is about ready to turn on her, he's just waiting for a moment where she shows she is no longer acting out of consideration of the Chantry but for her own crazy motives. Zambingo (talk) 17:09, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

re: "his first act as a templar is not turning in his sibling!"

There is division in the teachings of the Chantry and the acts of their Templars. All of the games so far have shown that some are hard ass literal believers, while others see a different path... where Mages should still be guided, taught and that people should be wary of them but not to the extremes that they are prisoners of their birth, slaves to the Chantry. etc. Carver being a less literal Templar is not only perfectly in character to his background, but perfectly in line with other rational members of the Chantry that we have come across or heard about. Zambingo (talk) 17:26, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

re: "Magic is to serve man, not rule over him."

I strongly hold to this following point of view/opinion. The verse is taken to mean MAGES, but the word used is MAGIC. Magic is a tool and it is to be used by Man, not to enslave man (dominate his POV, become reliant on to the adverse development of other skills, set one above another as superior etc). The verse seems to be more in line with IRL worries about modern technology, such as "Technology is to serve Man, not rule over him". It's a philosophy not a rule, like "Give a man a fish he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." That isn't a rule saying never give someone something to eat, it's saying hey! if you educate that person they can pay it forward etc. I think one of the things the Chantry is about to be shattered over is this specific realization. The Chantry and the Qunari have it wrong (enslave mages, fear them), Tevinter has it wrong (mages are superior, must rule). Zambingo (talk) 17:26, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

My opinion on Carver is.. well, ve-e-ery low:) In four words - he's a whiny, grumpy spineless loser. When all your life you think of yourself as inferior to the rest of your siblings, big surprise - you become inferior. And then spend the rest of your life wallowing in grief and anguish. The decision to become a Grey Warden isn't really his, but to become a templar... Think about it: the guy WILLINGLY leaves his grief-struck aging mother to persecute people like his father and sister, spitting on their memory. It's not really the time to try being selfish. Sort of gives you a hint of what kind of people join the templars. Carver shares his place with Fenris on the top list of my most hated party members. I think BioWare kinda hates two-handed fighters in DAII, making them annoying whiny little brats with no balls at all, instead of true warriors.---Algol- (talk) 07:26, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

I really disagree your perception of Carver's motives to join the Templars. I also don't think it is a fair point to diss him on the fact it wasn't his decision to join the Wardens (The Warden never chooses it either). Anyway, back to the Templar motive... Carver has daddy issues, more than sibling issues. That's the core of his trouble with his siblings... Daddy had magic, my siblings have magic... he has nothing, daddy spends lots of time with his siblings (teaching them magic), he gets none of that attention... as a child he cements this as a lack of love for him. Zambingo (talk) 17:28, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

In many ways this parallels to psychological condition where a child of an opposing sex to the parent in question observes that parent spending more time with a same sex sibling. His daddy issues are reduced when he finds out he's lovingly named after the Templar that helped his father escape. Zambingo (talk) 17:28, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

Then later Carver's decision to leave his mother to start a career as a Templar isn't worthy of dissing either imo, he's a man... he's moving on. His mother is too clingy and dramatic. Becoming a Templar honors his namesake and allows him to be in position to help his sibling behind the scenes and the plight of other mages, just as his namesake helped his father. I can see no valid way it's a decision made to spit on his background. Zambingo (talk) 17:28, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

Carver is whiny and a dick, I don't dispute that, but so was Luke Skywalker and Han Solo. I can't agree that anything Carver does is done with malice. Zambingo (talk)

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