This seems to be a topic that leads a lot of forums off topic, so please discuss it here instead of on forums it does not relate to. ----Isolationistmagi 01:31, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
Anders from DAA= Amusing Alistair replacement. But apparently he wasn't very bright, because the thought of Justice possessing him seemed like a good idea to him. Anders from DA2= Highly annoying, never shutting up, terrorist a-hole. That's my opinion.--Liam Sionnach (talk) 02:52, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
Oh god this topic. Involving innocents is always inexcusable, but it is easy to see why something like what Anders did happened, the way the Templars were pressing the mages was bound to have such consequences eventually. Rathian Warrior (talk) 02:54, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
- But he didn't attack the Templars, he attacked Kirkwall's chantry. Which isn't to say the Chantry as an institution is innocent- they aren't, I agree. They're assholes. Even though Anders has legitimate reasons to hate the Chantry, his choice of methods and choice of targets (not to mention the fact that he was a huge hypocrite, and a shining beacon of all the reasons the Chantry gets away with oppressing mages) destroy any credibility he might have had.--Liam Sionnach (talk) 03:13, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
I wish DA: A Anders was the basis of DA: II Anders. I liked A. Anders because he wasn't a hypocrite, he didn't mind becoming a blood mage and wasn't a preachy whiny prick. I wish him and justice never joined because apparantly becoming an abomination means you become an over homosexual while becoming a preachy a hole. I am not homophobic but when you change a characters definition it is just wrong.
- Exactly as Liam said. Anders did more to kill his own ideals than inaction would've. He's no better than a common terrorist. "Believe what I believe or I'll blow you up!" RomeoReject (talk) 06:15, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
- He didn't blow up the Chantry due to a difference of opinion. Not to imply that I disagree with the claim he is a terrorist. --58.106.174.59 (talk) 06:34, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
- Exactly as Liam said. Anders did more to kill his own ideals than inaction would've. He's no better than a common terrorist. "Believe what I believe or I'll blow you up!" RomeoReject (talk) 06:15, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
When he destroyed the Chantry in Kirkwall I started to hate him. I killed him. He was blinded by his hatred that he didn't see mages' guilt, ex. when Varania betrayed Fenris to Danarius and revelated to be a mage, he told Fenris was just jealous, Fenris was abused by magisters and betrayed by his only relative, no way he could be angry because of envy. Andy started that idiotic war, in which civillians suffer the most because of mages and templars' hate to each other. Mages he wanted to protect were maleficars - Orsino completelly failed his job and was a hypocryte. I see Anders as nobody, but an insane terrorist. He told he was changing the world, only insane idiots say such things. I don't want Fiona's Imperium or Lambert's dictatorship, I will also kill both of them, right now every mage and templar is a bloody murderer, nobody is innocent.
A better question is, what would have happened to the mages if Anders never did what he did Blighter (talk) 08:28, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
- As society improved (assuming there wasn't a dark age or something) and technology and culture advanced as they did, they would end up slowly getting freer and freer as magic became more understood and more and more controllable. With Ander's little civil war, what'd realistically happen is that, as the mages wage a destructive war against the (seemingly well liked) chantry and templars, they will be split away from normal people and feared and hated by them. As they fight as `mages`, not as any other category, people will even more see them as `mages`, not `people`. If Ander's objective was to free mages (as in, get them to be treated as normal people), blowing up the Chantry has shot that to hell more than any Circle or Annulment ever could. TheTeaMustFlow (talk) 08:54, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
Though I don't agree with his actions, it was the only thing he could do to start the war and bring change. Removing the chance of compromise was the only way.--R0B45 (talk) 08:58, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
- Change can be a good thing, but only when it is guided by the vision of one man, can you be certain that it leads to a specific direction. Chaos and anarchy is change too, and in a movie like "V for vendetta" anarchy might just be the best possibly solution. But no one was an enemy there, no one but the system itself that burned with the destruction of parliament.
- What we have here is a war, that alianates mages like TheTeaMustFlow said. Mages are dangerous and needs to be watched, not necessarily imprisoned, but they would always be different from "normies". What Anders did was to give the Templars a reason and justification for why mages should be suppressed.
- The war will most likely fragment the chantry and the templar order, not destroy it, but have it nationalised and put under the control of the individual kings. The kings would need to take charge and establish order with their own armies taking control of both templar chantry and mages in their respective realms, they have to do that, because if they don't it will be torn apart by civil war.
- I think that will be the end result of the war, and the mages status will be vastly different from one kingdom to the next. In some the mages would bow down to the king, and help him put the templars down, in others the templars will do the same and in some none would yield and the king will defeat both. If the king don't triumph the end result will be Fiona's Imperium or Lambert's dictatorship.-rphb- (talk) 09:29, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
- Problem I see there Rob, is that he's polarized ALOT of people against the Mages. Most of Thedas will see Mages versus Templar and instantly go after the Mages. Tevinter was strike one, Orsino strike two and Anders will be the last straw. He's essentially condemned every Mage to war, whether they wanted it or not. RomeoReject (talk) 11:14, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
I think forcing the Anders from Awakening into DAII was one of the many bad design decisions they made. Not only because it completely overruled whatever decisions your Warden-Commander made but because they are way to different. In Awakening Anders simply wanted to be free. He had no problem with his fellow mages living under Chantry control and even thought that pulling away from the Chantry would be a disaster. Sure, Justice prodded him that he had a responsibility towards his fellow, mistreated mages, but that does in no way explain the hatred he was supposed to have that transformed Justice into Vengeance. To make it short: I liked Awakening-Anders. DAII-Anders is a crazy terrorist. If he really wanted to do something for the mages he would have assassinated Meredith. Heck, I could have even understood it if he had assassinated Elthina. Elthina was responsible for the Templars and didn't manage to control them, she failed at her duty and the mages suffered for it. But that's not why he did it. He killed her and a bunch of innocents because he was afraid that she would finally do her duty, send Meredith to hell and preserve the status quo. While being a mage wasn't that great simply tearing everything apart only makes things worse for them. DAO showed with Connor how dangerous unsupervised mages are. And it only takes one such incident to make people kill every child that shows signs of being a mage. Anders actions are probably going to kill more mages than Uldred and Meredith combined.--Navarion (talk) 11:31, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
- After listening to all the party banter put together on YouTube, I realized that a lot of what Anders becomes in DA2 was actually foreshadowed in Awakening. Give it a listen. Son Goharotto (talk) 12:24, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
- The same is true with the perverting of Justice, he talks a lot of being envious of mortals like the beauty of the world and borderline jealously of wanting to feel something like the love like Kristoff and Aura. Even becoming angry and wanting "Vengeance" (a dialog option for the warden) for the death of Kristoff by killing the darkspawn. The plan seems heavily laid in Awakening if you delve into the details. It hurts my head to see posts saying why did they ruin him in DA2 without noticing it was clearly what he was going to be. Tommyspa (talk) 02:28, June 10, 2012 (UTC)
The problem here is the method used. Violence may lead to freedom, but its a temporary freedom and only leads to oppression and tighter control later on, example, just about every revolution in history which operated under the pretext of "freeing" people. It either failed and retaliation and retribution often leaves the situation worse off than it was before. To quote Gandhi: "I object to violence because when it appears to do good the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent", meaning that the violent means cannot be justified to change the world. It leaves a scar in the minds of everyone, and as we all know, scars don't heal, they might fade, but they don't heal. What Anders did is unforgivable and unforgettable. He murdered (and thats what he did, no matter how you try to spin it), one of, if not the most important person in Eastern Thedas in a highly visible manner. That act was no longer about showing the oppression of the Chantry, but the opening salvo in a war that is going to hurt the mages far more than its going to help and the revelation of a true abomination. --Madasamadthing (talk) 12:31, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
Anders is righteous rebel and Justice is insane terrorist. --188.67.216.103 (talk) 17:48, June 9, 2012 (UTC)Jak Darckner
I certainly agree with the wishes for DA2 Anders to have been more rooted in Awakening Anders. In Awakening Anders was actually against the mages breaking away from the Chantry. Because he feared what would happen to mages if they didn't have some sort body presiding over them. He was more interested in Templars leaving him alone than all mages being free. That self-interest allowed him to be a playful rebel everyone loved. For me to justify the massive change that took place in my mind I have to figure that Justice's unwavering righteousness caused Anders to be much more globally aware. His motives were just, Anders took the path that many people in real life take. He started to become more aware of the problem, Justice's essence wouldn't let him selfishly turn a blind eye anymore, and instead of finding a way through the proper channels to change things, he became a radical. Almost every revolution in human history has those revolutionary figures that became more about embodying their ideas than their own personalities. As far as I'm concerned Anders is dead. Vengeance, the union of he and Justice, is all that's left. I do however think Kirkwall was a terrible environment for such an unstable person, if he had stayed in Ferelden I think he could have done a lot of good without having to wage war. None of this justifies what he did. I think that he was a righteous rebel, someone who dedicated his life to stopping an injustice. But when he decided that the Grand Cleric should die for her neutrality and acted on it, killing at least 100 if not more innocents in the process, he crossed over from righteous rebel to terrorist. Imagine if during a world war, a German man was fighting for freedom of a certain group. Everyone respects him for his valiant fight, he asks Sweden for help, but they're officially neutral and can't openly help him. So he bombs the ever-loving hell out of them. He's not a hero anymore, he's a lunatic. And now everyone in the world is convinced that not only was he crazy, but that his cause wasn't as just as they thought because its leader was raving mad man. Sorry for the simple point said long, didn't mean to go off on a tangent. Tyrannus3 (talk) 03:07, June 10, 2012 (UTC)
I would consider him a HERO because Sweden suck's. And because I'm Finnish. --87.95.53.198 (talk) 08:39, June 10, 2012 (UTC)Jak Darckner
His intention was understandable but his action is incredibly stupid. The actions of the Mages, Templars and the Chantry are idiotic towards the problem. Even Alistair is an idiot for not doing anything. And Anders only made everything worse that it is. Just look at his face after he blew up the Chantry. Based on his body language he was uncertain on his choice of action.
The main problem is that everyone fears magic and they are trying to suppress it. They should have instead educated the ones who can use magic. What my King of Ferelden would have done is renovated the Circle of Magi to make people realize that magic is something that can be controlled like a sword and that it also has advantages. My King of Ferelden would also have reinstated the Circle of Magi in the hands of the Grey Wardens instead of the Templars of the Chantry. KoF would also use Connor as an icon figure.-- 
Asteral9 | Talk 16:02, June 10, 2012 (UTC)
My king of ferelden would let the mages run the circles and eventually they would run the ferelden like Tevinter. --87.95.53.198 (talk) 17:57, June 10, 2012 (UTC)Jak Darcker
This is what I just recognized. Anders says in DA2 that Justice is gone, that he and Anders are one. Justice's and Anders' thoughts are the same. The line, I believe, is "not even the greatest scholar could tell you where I end and he begins." So if that's true, then Justice's desire to free the mages and fulfill that obligation he feels Anders should have towards them becomes the driving force in Anders life after they become the same being. So really, I agree with what Jak said. Anders in a righteous rebel, while Justice is the insane terrorist.--DarthValius (talk) 22:58, June 10, 2012 (UTC)
Insane terrorist: he deliberately murdered innocents to force an issue. If he'd held rallies, published some pamphlets, organized a legit mage underground, and maybe led some vandalism or saboteur raids against the templars (destroying weapons or lyrium caches), then he'd be a rebel. But once he blew up a chantry? Evil nutjob. And, in Anders's case, he went from whiny malcontent to terrorist. He just skipped right over the righteous indignation stage. HELO (talk) 17:30, June 11, 2012 (UTC)
I love what they did with Anders in DA2, sure I get annoyed at his personality at times. However what his character change did was open up a conflict in my opinion far more interesting than any blight. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, and Anders may to us seem like a hypocrite and overall a giant douche to mages all over Thedas he could be seen as a hero trying to help his fellow man at a tragic cost. I'm really amazed that people hate what happened with him so much as he's gone from a mage Alistair rip-off to one of the most interesting characters in this franchise in my opinion.--TheRageMage (talk) 17:40, June 11, 2012 (UTC)TheRageMage
- For my part, I think you're right about Anders being a poor man's Alistair. And I didn't like him in DA:A just for that reason. So I was already annoyed at having to spend time with him again before he opened his mouth. But once he started talking, I desperately missed the poor man's Alistair. Because the general point of his character could have been used to great effect and made to be very compelling (if not likeable)--as I think they managed, more or less, with the Arishok. I didn't have to agree with him, but I should have been able to see the merit in agreeing with him. But the Anders we got in DA2 was a one-dimensional charicature of a rebel and came off more like a disgruntled teenager than a revolutionary. He was only there to shout about mages, just like Fenris was only there to "balance things out" by moaning loudly about mages. HELO (talk) 18:32, June 11, 2012 (UTC)
Eh I say terrorist because I just think that while his goals, like many freedom fighters, were honorable he went about it the completely wrong way. First off he went to Kirkwall and as I will preach over and over that city is terrible and makes anything worse than what it really is, like someone mentioned above, had Anders just stayed his butt in Fereldan he would have likely found some sort of (mostly) peaceful way of resolving the situation rather than completely losing his mind and bombing a chantry.
Secondly did he have to bomb a chantry? He could have assassinated Merideth and make a conspiracy to make it look like the work of a madman and not a mage thus avoiding the blame then wait a little while to see if things get better, oh but he isn't smart enough for that apparently. And why remove the chance of compromise? Last time I checked something was better than nothing at all. Why not kill both Orsino and Meredith and try to organize your own compromise? (we end up killing both anyway) heavens knows very few templars really liked or agreed with Meredith and Orsino was incompetent and a liar, not to mention there were apparently a bunch of mages and templars working together anyway so why not rally them?
Lastly I see no real good way this war he started can end without some neutral compromise and mediation. If the mages win the people will more than likely rise against to mages because of what they have been taught and from fear that rises when mages kill people who obviously have families like anyone else during the war. The mages are more than likely going to have to abolish the chantry as well because of it's obvious dislike and mistrust of mages and many people would not like their religion being "outlawed". So sure mages will can be free through war, but they will likely have to fight off a number of rebels and common folk who hate and mistrust them, and that can easily lead to a new tevinter empire, and if it doesn't well I hope you all like the new "age of troubles" because there will more than likely be constant fighting if the mages refuse take power and totally take over. If the templars win, things will more than likely go back to the way they were before the war, except worse! More templars would be hired many of them joining more than likely out of rage from what the mages did or ones who want revenge for maybe a family member being killed in the war, there will be more tranqils, more mutual distrust of mages, and tighter circle rules.
Over all I think Anders (or Justice/Vengeance at least) made a terrible mistake and deserves most of hate he gets, there were so many better ways he could have approached the situation but instead he decided to to this. Sorry for the wall of text lol, this is pretty much my full thoughts on the subject. MrRexfire (talk) 20:33, June 11, 2012 (UTC)