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Prior Hawke’s expedition, the thaig was revisited at least twice at some points of time. Once by the scavengers from Orzammar, and by scavengers from Kirkwall, due to whom the word of its existence was passed down the generations (Varic claims that there are rumours of a thaig near Kirkwall). |
Prior Hawke’s expedition, the thaig was revisited at least twice at some points of time. Once by the scavengers from Orzammar, and by scavengers from Kirkwall, due to whom the word of its existence was passed down the generations (Varic claims that there are rumours of a thaig near Kirkwall). |
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| − | Q: Is the presence of golems an indication that Orzammar sent an expedition to investigate, or were they crafted long before Caridin? |
+ | Q: Is the presence of golems an indication that Orzammar sent an expedition to investigate, or were they crafted long before Caridin? |
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| + | A: This is just a theory, but it is possible that the inhabitants of this thaig crafted the first Golems very carefully, then brought them to life with the idol? As Meredith proves, it has more than the power necessary to bring giant statues to life, how much harder would it be to animate an army of golems? Perhaps Caridin found the ancient shell of one, thought it was a statue, got an idea, forged the Anvil of the Void, and made Golems his own, new, inventive way? He would be recorded and made Paragon for crafting the Golems, and for all he knew, he was the first one.[[User:Croc484|Croc484]] ([[User talk:Croc484|talk]]) 00:31, May 31, 2011 (UTC)Croc484 8:30PM May 30, 2011 |
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Q: Were the golems left there intentionally, or were they all that remained after the expedition was overwhelmed? |
Q: Were the golems left there intentionally, or were they all that remained after the expedition was overwhelmed? |
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Revision as of 00:31, 31 May 2011
Alright… I’m not yet fully through the Primeval Thaig but it’s certainly thought-provoking, so I decided to put it down while still fresh in memory and develop on it later, and hopefully with your help. Rather than a theory, I intend this to be compilation of facts from the game and the questions to spin off future hypotheses, though wild theories are welcome, as well :-)
Sources
Codex entry: The Primeval Thaig
The Primeval Thaig
Location
Under the normal Deep Roads level, about a week’s journey from an entrance in the Kirkwall area.
Q: Why is a week’s journey considered “further than anyone?” Given the distances, a week’s stay must have been a common feat, especially for the Wardens.
A: I'm not sure if the "travelling further..." thing is an oversight or just trying to "big up" Hawke as it were. IMO, the Warden definately travelled further than Hawke, and if Hawke really went that far, he would have had a much harder time cutting through the spawn. Maybe they meant further than anyone else on the expedition? P.S, sorry if you wanted posts further down the page :s King Cousland (talk) 21:33, May 30, 2011 (UTC)
Age
Unknown. It is presumed that it dates back even before the First thaig, because of the huge cultural difference and lack of records and dating.
Q: Where does the estimate of “ten thousand years” come from?
A: Mayhaps Sandal can also carbon-date? :P Phylarion (talk) 22:30, May 30, 2011 (UTC)
Inhabitants
Supposedly dwarves, but there is no direct proof. There are substantial deviations from the current dwarven culture (unknown script, no paragons but temples). The idol mentioned in the Orzammar records is said to be of Dwarven make but this does not necessarily mean that it was crafted by the inhabitants of the thaig, or that the dwarves were the only inhabitants.
Q: Why are there no traces of the former inhabitants of the thaig? Surely everything can’t have deteriorated or been looted. Or is it just because the devs were short of time?
A: Either (as you suggest) time shortages, or it was intended to add to the eeriness. A whole thaig doesn't just dissapear, ao it makes people think that there was something supernatural involved. King Cousland (talk) 21:41, May 30, 2011 (UTC)
Religion
Unknown. Given the existence of temples and idol(s), there seemed to be rather a pantheon than a single deity.
Q: Why was the practice abandoned (i.e., in case the inhabitants were really dwarves)? Were the Profane somehow involved?
Q: Is there any proof for the assumption that the deities were in fact demons? Were they the same as worshipped in Tevinter?
Records
No records of its existence were found in the Shaperate of Orzammar after a surviving scavenger reported its existence. The mention comes from a sealed royal archive.
It is not clear whether the Wardens possess some knowledge of it or whether they merely intended to investigate a place that, due to its age, might give a clue to the origin of Blights and learned of it after Hawke's expedition.
Q: Is there still no record of the thaig after the date, and is the report included in the Memories, as well?
Q: Could there be a duplicity in the dwarven archives, suggesting a possible rivalry between the Shaperate and the king?
Q: Do dwarves censor their Memories, and for what reason?
Q: What do the Wardens know and why do they consider the area important?
A: It's highly unlikely dwarves sensor their Memories, as controversial knowledge is still common knowledge in Orzammar, e.g, the ascension of Volney to Paragon status etc. King Cousland (talk) 21:45, May 30, 2011 (UTC)
- A little reorganization, to keep fact and questions separate. - I know that the censorship is unlikely; however, are you familiar with Babylon 5? "Minbari never lie", that's a fact chiselled in stone - unless to protect another Minbari's honour. So, dwarves never falsify their records, unless... what? Ygrain (talk) 22:04, May 30, 2011 (UTC)
Sorry about changing the organization, I didn't even realize I'd done it :s King Cousland (talk) 22:25, May 30, 2011 (UTC)
A: The Wardens had knowledge of the thaig prior to Hawke's expedition (as evidenced by Anders' maps). You can ask Nathaniel Howe why the Wardens are interested in it, but he dodges the question, just telling you that the First Warden didn't believe anyone could get as far into the thaig as Hawke, and personally ordered a reconaissance mission. King Cousland (talk) 21:50, May 30, 2011 (UTC)
- Ah... do the maps really show the thaig itself, or only the entrances to the Deep Roads? Ygrain (talk) 22:08, May 30, 2011 (UTC)
- The entrances I believe, but if they knew of the entrances, it's almost certain they knew of the thaig. King Cousland (talk) 22:25, May 30, 2011 (UTC)
- I disagree with this. One might know of the entrances, but it's a logical fallacy to suggest that they knew of what was to be found. You can encounter a building with no windows, but many closed doors. You can map out the doors and remember their location, but that doesn't mean you know that there's a pot of gold behind any of them. Phylarion (talk) 22:34, May 30, 2011 (UTC)
Intrusions
Prior Hawke’s expedition, the thaig was revisited at least twice at some points of time. Once by the scavengers from Orzammar, and by scavengers from Kirkwall, due to whom the word of its existence was passed down the generations (Varic claims that there are rumours of a thaig near Kirkwall).
Q: Is the presence of golems an indication that Orzammar sent an expedition to investigate, or were they crafted long before Caridin?
A: This is just a theory, but it is possible that the inhabitants of this thaig crafted the first Golems very carefully, then brought them to life with the idol? As Meredith proves, it has more than the power necessary to bring giant statues to life, how much harder would it be to animate an army of golems? Perhaps Caridin found the ancient shell of one, thought it was a statue, got an idea, forged the Anvil of the Void, and made Golems his own, new, inventive way? He would be recorded and made Paragon for crafting the Golems, and for all he knew, he was the first one.Croc484 (talk) 00:31, May 31, 2011 (UTC)Croc484 8:30PM May 30, 2011
Q: Were the golems left there intentionally, or were they all that remained after the expedition was overwhelmed?
Findings
Orzammar coin
Dwarven clan pin
Ring of Vhenadahl
(Incomplete, since I wasn’t taking notes during the playthrough) While the first two further confirm the presence of Orzammar dwarves, the ring may indicate either elven presence or trade with elves, or may have been brought by the later intruders.
The idol
This is, in fact, curiouser and curiouser.
The record in the royal archive states that there was a SINGLE idol, made from an unknown substance, and bearing typical marks of dwarven crafting (whatever they are).
Q: Is this supposed to mean that this is the very SAME idol which Hawke found? How did it get back there, and why? Did the dwarves realize that some things are better forgotten and erased the record in the Memories?
The idol which Hawke found is from an unknown type of lyrium and contains some evil magic (stated by Anders just after the discovery). It affects negatively the minds of those exposed to it for a prolonged period of time, reportedly “sings” and allows to animate objects.
Q: Are the effects of the idol (mental illness, “singing”, Meredith’s transformation into a statue etc.) caused by the substance itself, or is the magic somehow involved, as well?
Q: What entity did the idol depict and what was its purpose?
Q: If there was more than one idol, what happened with the others? Did they have the same properties?
A: We'll probably find out more about the idol in future games, though it's noteworthy that it didn't affect Varric as much as Bartrand and Meredith (though they were exposed longer). Other than that though, the idol's most likely made out of plot device. King Cousland (talk) 22:02, May 30, 2011 (UTC)
Lyrium
The lyrium found in the thaig is an unknown kind, presumably purer, and according to the wiki entry, “carefully cultivated”.
Q: What is “cultivated” supposed to mean and where does the information come from?
Q: Does the red colour simply denote a new kind, or was the choice of the colour intentional? (red glow being perceived as more sinister as compared to e.g. green). If it was intentional, is it supposed to indicate any connection to blood and/or blood magic?
Q: Is the lyrium only purified, or also somehow altered? And is it somehow affected by the fact that the Profane fed from it? Q: Is the song of the blue lyrium different from the red one?
More general questions, unrelated to the thaig:
Q: Is lyrium merely a substance, or is it something else – a life-form, a communication channel, whatever? Is its song related to the song of the Old Gods which the darkspawn hear?
Q: Why do surface dwarves lose their resistance to lyrium but do not regain access to the Fade?
A: Tranquil mages have been forcefully "ripped" from the Fade, whereas dwarves' connection has been slowly "unravelled". The mages still have a metaphorical "scar" which can re-connect them, but dwarves' "scars" have long since dissapeared. King Cousland (talk) 22:04, May 30, 2011 (UTC)
- Only in the Anders/Karl incident I believe. Plus, abominations can be brought back, but it's a different situation, and they're forever...changed. King Cousland (talk) 22:22, May 30, 2011 (UTC)
The Profane
The Profane are said to be the souls of dwarves so foul that even the Stone refused; they are rock wraiths, animating stones, knowing nothing but hunger and hatred. The Profane of the Primeval Thaig are said to have forgotten everything but their hunger throughout the millenia.
Q: Could the Profane be the souls of the former inhabitants?
However, the rock wraith encountered in Codex entry: Rock Wraith seems to have retained some of its intellect, being able to distinguish darkspawn from dwarves and even act on behalf of the latter.
Q: Why did this particular wraith display a very different behaviour?
Q: If it felt remorse, what for?
Furthermore, an inscription on the wall of one of the lost thaigs says:
We who are forgotten, remember,
We clawed at the rock until our fingers bled,
We cried out for justice, but were unheard,
Our children wept in hunger,
And so we feasted upon the gods.
Here we wait, in aeons of silence.
We few, we profane.
Q: Is this to be taken literally, i.e. referring to some dwarves, entombed for an assumed crime together with their families? Or is there a more figurative meaning, like children = creation/creatures?
Q: And what might the crime be – rejecting the existence of gods, as their name suggests, in a society of worshippers? Or did they commit any other offence?
Q: Are the “children” of the Profane also Profane, or are they something else? Does the “we feasted upon gods” include both the Profane and the children, or only the Profane? If the latter, how did the children sate their hunger?
Q: Does the “feasting on gods” refer to feeding on lyrium?
Q: What is that lost memory they refer to? Their crime, or something else?
Darkspawn
There are absolutely no darkspawn encountered in the thaig but they haunt the surrounding tunnels aplenty.
Q: What is the source of information that the thaig is the only never infested by darkspawn? Is it actually said in the game, or only deduced from the gameplay?
A: The thaig is infested isn't it? During "Finding Nathaniel", there's a few spawn in the next chamber from where you rescue Sandal. King Cousland (talk) 22:07, May 30, 2011 (UTC)
Q: What keeps the darkspawn off the thaig? The lyrium, the idol, another force? Darkspawn maintain their presence there even when they are supposed to have withdrawn (Nathaniel says that the way should have been free).
Q: Is Nathaniel truly referring to the deal with the Architect, or some other arrangement?
Q: Why are the darkspawn there? Is the Architect dead/not in full control (another faction of disciples may have arisen), or does he want to prevent the Wardens from entering the thaig for some reason of his own?
Phew… That’s all I can think of now. I’ll be grateful for any pieces of information that you can add, since my own gameplay will take ages. I suggest that you add the information in the particular sections, and post wild theories below.
There are also a couple of things I haven’t been able to deduce from the wiki: Was it Bartrand’s plan to get rid of Hawke and his own brother from the very beginning, or did it occur to him only after he touched the idol? And after the idol drove Bartrand crazy and he became obsessed with it and its “song”; why did he sell it at all? And, since the buyer seems to be Meredith, how did she learn about it? And why did she have it made into a sword? – “A totally weird, ill-ominous looking object from a highly suspicious material – yay, would be cool to have a sword made from it” – that sounds too crazy even for her. And, above all, who crafted the sword?
/applause for everyone who made it through this all/ Ygrain (talk) 20:48, May 30, 2011 (UTC)
Oooooo Wild theories you say? >:D Ok, I've got one, and it has to do with why Meredith may had chosen to get the lyrium crafted into a sword. Now, as we all know, Meredith has a very...harsh and paranoid view of mages, and believes that mages are a constant threat to both others and to themselves. So, if said mages were to become an uncontrolled threat in the near future, well, then the best thing for the one whose job is to prevent that from happening is to prepare for when such said day comes; in short, find a means to get the upper hand. Now, like it was said in other threads across this wiki, raw lyrium on its own is dangerous, if not outright deadly, to many living creatures, with mages being more sensitive to the substance than many others; if a mage is exposed to a potent enough amount of lyrium, there is a good chance that it may kill the mage outright if exposed for too long. What if that weakness could be used against a mage, especially one that was deemed far too powerful and/or dangerous to kill by normal means? The solution: create a weapon made of the very material that your primary target is vulnerable against; powerful enough to alter and manipulate the minds of those in proximity to it, and deadly enough that if being stabbed by the sword wasn't enough to kill you, the raw lyrium now directly in your bloodstream, would. This is the only reason I can think of why Meredith would possibly even consider making a sword out of such a truly deadly substance, and it the only one in my opinion that would make the most sense, even for post-crazy Meredith. Sevarian10 (talk) 21:41, May 30, 2011 (UTC)Sevarian10
- Quite sensible, in fact - but how did Meredith learn of the existence of the idol? Did Bartrand advertise? Ygrain (talk) 22:04, May 30, 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps Bartrand held a silent auction on the idol after the expedition. After all, it took Hawke and crew a good week to get back on familiar terrain in the deep roads after Bartrand sealed them in, and then possibly another week or two to return to Kirkwall; that's almost a whole 2 weeks that Bartand could of had to spread word of the idols existence through the merchants guild. And even if Bartrand had fled a few days before Hawkes return, he could have still held the auction through contacts within the guild, and, through messages, could have kept in contact with potential buyers. This could possibly explain how Varric never got wind of such dealings, especially since he tends to try and avoid anything that involves contacting the merchants guild at all costs. Meredith could have caught wind of either the auction or that an item of great power was being sold by a owner in Rivain (I think that was where he fled to), and, intrigued, followed up on the dealing. Three years later, Bartand returns to Kirkwall to finally deal with Meredith after exchanging messages about her interest on the item for a few years. I'm guessing that he probably agreed to Meredith's offer a bit before he started hearing the "song", and then completely lost it after he sold it to her, having had a taste of the song, only to then lose it. For all we know, it could have been weeks after he had sold the idol before Varric told Hawke that Bartrand was in town. Sevarian10 (talk) 22:59, May 30, 2011 (UTC)Sevarian10
Something weird crossed my mind now: What if Sandal craftef Meredith's sword? He seemed very eager to work with the small piece I gave him to make a rune, and later asked if I had more. Plus, Sandal talks about the "weird lady" by his bed, and her scary laugh. Maybe he was confusing things and mentioning Meredith watching him forge the blade. Just a thought.Tales Mahariel (talk) 23:48, May 30, 2011 (UTC)