Forum:Alistair has an elven mother?!

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this was on of the questions and answers at raptr:

"Q: Ok so dragon age 1 was my favorite out of the 2 games. I liked the fighting stile better on da2. Ive beaten the first game with every charicter type. My fav was my dalish elf named turrin. In one of the endings i chose to breed my elf with morgan. Will their sons look half elf? And are you planning on bringing back race for charicter selection in the future games? Because honestley that was my favorite thing about dao A: There are no half elves in DA. The Human side always dominates the appearance. Hence Alistair (MD)" source:http://www.princessstabbity.com/raptr-q-a-with-the-bioware-devs-july-8-2014

has this just confirmed alistair having an elven mother?What do you guys think?Faye Cousland (talk) 23:43, July 8, 2014 (UTC)

SPOILERS FROM DRAGON AGE THE CALLING COMING UP:

In Dragon Age The Calling, King Maric had a brief romance with a female elven Grey Warden named Fiona, who became pregnant after gaining an immunity to the taint. She gave birth to her and Maric's son, who was born human and looked Maric The child was never given a name and was speculated to be Alistair. They did not say Fiona was Alistair's mother, but it seems more likely now that he is confirmed to be half-elven.

That or his mother was an Elven Maid and Maric has a huge thing for elves. Supergodzilla118 (talk) Supergodzilla118 23:45, July 8, 2014 (UTC)

That would mean that Goldanna is also half-elven maybe the mother as a thing for humans xp but yeah it seams pretty much confirmed and Fiona is now the leader of the apostate mages soooo she is important xpFaye Cousland (talk) 00:09, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

That does not mean Goldanna is half-elven. The commonly held theory about Fiona being Alistair's mother was that when she made Maric to promise to make sure her child never knew who his mother, Maric agreed. Not telling Eamon the whole truth (because a royal bastard would have been bad enough, but a half-elven royal bastard would have been too much), Eamon knew what to do. A maid was pregnant and about to give birth, and as it turned out she died in childbirth. Presumably the child died as well because Eamon was able to pass it off as Maric's bastard as the newborn, throwing in the story about the maid and Maric having an affair. Goldanna raising questions was passed off as a child making noise after her mother's death and she was sent off with a couple of coins and told to shut the hell up. In essence, Alistair is a take on the changling, a child replaced with a doppelganger and raised in it's place.

Alistair being a bastard is an open secret among the nobility in Ferelden, but only three people knew his mother was an elf, Maric, Duncan and Fiona. Two of those people are dead and conspiracies work best when there's only a couple of people in the know. So again, Goldanna is not Alistair's biological sister, she is not half elven.--Madasamadthing (talk) 00:31, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

The problem with the theory that Fiona is his mother is the timeline i mean duncan was like 16 or smth in the book and now he is in his 40ies and alistair is what? 20smth? also Rowan was still alive Cailan was really small. Its very unlikely i think.Faye Cousland (talk) 01:02, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

Do bear in mind as well that David Gaider admitted that he screwed up the timeline with the first couple of novels. Cailan was in his very late 20s when he died (possibly 29 or so given that the Blight occurred in 9:30 Dragon), and Rowan was already dead for a couple of years by the time of the events in the Calling novel. Alistair would possibly be in his late teens/early 20s. Which makes sense seeing as how he was still a Templar initiate when he was recruited into the Grey Wardens and not a full Templar and the slightly childish and naive attitude he has, because really, he is still just a kid.--Madasamadthing (talk) 01:44, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

Duncan was 18, not 16, during The Calling and the timeline isn't completely off. There's still roughly 20 years between the book and Origins. Jessica Sutter (talk) 02:28, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

Fiona is Alistair's mother. Confirmed on Twitter https://twitter.com/Mike_Laidlaw/status/486584356337487872. Turuzzusapatuttu (talk) 13:43, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

I knew he was a Royal Bastard...but an Elven Royal Bastard! :) 67.186.21.95 (talk) 14:45, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

What a load of shit! Yes I know the staff confirmed it, but it's still a poorly written plot element. Many problems with this.

1. Duncan's age and years in the Wardens before being near his calling (as said by Alistair) are put into question. He might be too young to match his age in Origins, or not near enough to his calling for Alistair to know he was in the final stages.

2. Loghain's statements about Maric nearly recognizing Alistair except that it would have disgraced Rowan and put Cailan's claim in doubt are basically made out to be lies. Loghain makes it sound like Rowan was alive while Maric cheated on her to conceive Alistair and may have even been born before Cailan. But if these are not true and Rowan was dead by the time Alistair was conceived, then... why didn't Maric claim Alistair again?

3. Even if that were a lie, the extra lie of saying Alistair was the son of a maid who actually existed and who actually died giving birth is illogical. Why would Maric, Loghain, or Eamon link Alistair to a dead mother that was not his? Why not simply claim the mother was some unknown human at a Chantry? It doesn't make sense to link him to a woman who actually existed and already had a daughter (Goldanna). Also consider that this "lie" was not meant for anyone. It was basically just Maric, Loghian, and Eamon keeping this "lie" as a secret, in which case, what's the point? They could have just kept the truth to themselves.

4. What's with the amulet? If Fiona is Alistair's mother, then where did the Andraste amulet come from? Fiona didn't leave him that. And if that was a lie too, then why did Eamon bother piecing it back together? Eamon spent all that time reassembling another lie?

5. Why would Duncan agree to watch over Alistair if he was being given over to Eamon? That only makes sense if the child had no one to look after him.

6. Alistair being linked to Maric at all contradicts what Fiona wanted, which was for her child to be raised away from court. Same goes for sending him to an arling.

7. This basically makes Maric, Loghain, and Eamon horrible, horrible people. Aside from the Walter White-esque fabrication of giving a common amulet to Alistair and saying it was from his dead mother, there's also the fact that you're saying his existence in this world is the cause of his mother's death. Meaning, each one of his birthdays (name-days) is the anniversary of his mother... dying. ... ... ... Hip-hip-Hooray!

8. Again with the amulet, a scene that MUST have happened off-screen is Alistair thanking Eamon like he said he was going to do for piecing the amulet back together. So did Eamon fake a sentimental moment with Alistair when he thanked him? He must have because Alistair still thinks his mother was some dead maid! And for all we know, Eamon only pieced that amulet back together because it cost him 5 silvers and he was mad that Alistair broke it! He may not have even intended to ever give that thing back to Alistair! HOLY SHIT ALISTAIR'S LIFE IS DEPRESSING!!!!! Believe it! (talk) 19:52, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

Basically the problem is that at some point there was a drastic change in what Alistair's character was supposed to be. I'm pretty sure he was originally supposed to be a good deal older. As for the other things, I think it's because this wasn't some grand conspiracy between Maric, Eamon, and Loghain- if it was I think the lies would have made more sense. It breaks down into three men who had different motivations and opinions

1. Maric, while he did want to keep Alistair, respected Fiona's wishes and sent him away to be raised without his heritage(s) hanging over his head. But he still wanted to make sure that he was well taken care of, so he sent Alistair to his brother in law, a man he presumably trusted.

2. Eamon, per Maric's (and by extention, Fiona's) instructions planned to tell Alistair that his mother was human and dead. This is where things get complicated. It's possible that Eamon intended Goldanna's mother to be Alistair's wet nurse, or foster mother, only for chance to intervene and she died in childbirth. Or perhaps Eamon just took advantage of the circumstances to provide an explanation for this mysterious baby he was looking after. I prefer the first one since it leaves more opportunities for a young Goldanna to overhear something and get confused about the father of her mother's child (as opposed to a foster brother. I also think the amulet was from Eamon all along, which is why he had it repaired.

3. Loghain. I just really don't think Loghain was in on much of this. He didn't approve of Maric's actions in The Calling, obviously, and didn't trust the Wardens. I'm sure the whole thing made him furious. I think that when he said Maric didn't acknowledge Alistair because it would be a disgrace to Rowan that was just his own (highly biased) opinion.

So yeah, a lot of this is messed up because I don't think they planned it out, but it makes a certain kind of sense if your willing to give it a chance. More so than Maric being completely callous and a possible rapist, at least.--Liam Sionnach (talk) 20:20, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think this has anything to do with the characters' motives. I think this mistake is all on Gaiderp. They created ONE story for Alistair in Origins, and then after heavily investing in that one story, Gaiderp decided to change it around so that Alistair had a completely different backstory and he literally hand-waved established canon to do so. Meanwhile that first story hangs there creating all kinds of plot holes.

1. Again, if Fiona wanted him raised away from court, sending him to Eamon is a bad idea since he runs an arling. Think... the Commander of the Grey's duties in Awakening, only without being a Grey Warden. And this is when Eamon was childless. Besides, when Eamon was no longer able to look after him due to Isolde's... irritating mouth noises constantly scratching his eardrum then how is packing Alistair off to the Chantry to become a templar the better idea? By that point Alistair would have been a teen, and going to live in Denerim at the palace would not have been any different than living there. And to top it off, Anora confirms that Cailan was aware of Alistair the whole time. I mean come on. It's like, Alistair has a different origin but still has the same upbringing, and the upbringing story was written based off the original origin story and does not fit the new one.

2. Problem with that; if Alistair was sent to Eamon from Maric, then Alistair was already a grown baby, not a newborn. So however old he was before Fiona turned him over, plus the time it took to move Alistair to Redcliff (unless she met Maric at Redcliff for some reason). That means matching Alistair to a dead maid whose baby did not survive would not work because Alistair wouldn't be a newborn. The timing is all screwed up. Another problem; if they were going to lie and say Alistair's mother was human and dead then why didn't they... just say... his mother was... human... and dead? Why falsely link him to a real human woman who died giving birth, thus making Alistair the child she died giving birth to? I mean, I suppose in Ferelden that is better than being born to an elven Grey Warden mage somehow, but it's still not a good thing. If Eamon had free license to make something up, it doesn't make sense to use a real life event to hide a child's origins. Was Eamon drunk or something? Did he lack imagination? Did he think involving Alistair with a complete stranger and her family was a good idea and thought to himself, "what could possibly go wrong"? Then when Goldanna came asking about her mommy and the baby she was expected to give birth to, Eamon chose to shoo her away with some gold and the idea that the "babe" survived? AND Maric was cool with all this? This also implies that Goldanna was allowed to see her mother's body, but not the baby who was said to have passed away during birth. Why not? If this really happened then why not show both? Did they purposely take the baby's body away so that it could be said the "babe" survived and that "babe" was Alistair? Fine, but why say this to Goldanna?

3. Loghain said more than just "disgraced". He said it would have reduced Rowan to a concubine and put Cailan's claim into question. That's pretty specific, and this was said during a time when Loghain had absolutely no reason to maintain any lie whatsoever. Alistair's existence as Maric's son post-Rowan was revealed, Alistair had left the Wardens and Ferelden after renouncing all claim, my male human noble and Anora were set to be married and rule jointly, Maric and Rowan were not around anymore, and would Loghain really give a damn about Fiona's wishes? He said those things like he really believed them. He also said he encouraged Maric not to recognize Alistair at ANY point, not just as an infant. Besides, if Maric didn't cheat on Rowan, then what's the issue? She was dead. People are allowed to form new relationships after their spouse dies. And if Loghain was mad that Maric did not stay faithful to Rowan's memory, then why did he still protect him by lying to my custom character (which didn't matter one way or the other at that point)? Loghain loved Rowan, so why not voice disapproval at Maric's choice? Even in the cover story Maric still betrayed Rowan's memory with the maid. So... Loghain admitted that Maric was unfaithful to Rowan's memory, but not who with? That doesn't make sense.

I agree the "writers" never planned this out, but this new story doesn't make sense. Maric was callous no matter which way you slice it, and even MORE so if you incorporate the new storyline that Maric deceived Alistair into believing a terrible lie about who his mother really was (and now the same would go for Eamon). The way I have always seen this issue is that the story about the maid giving birth to Alistair was TRUE (and indeed the maid really existed and died giving birth), and Loghain and Eamon did their best to cover up the truth that the baby was Alistair. That's the only way this makes sense, because it isn't logical to falsely tie Alistair's origin to a real life event like that. It is simpler to just make up a lie with no specifics or real identities involved. Also, I don't think Maric was a rapist according to the original storyline. That was just Goldanna's biased assumption. I mean, it's kinda rape-y him being in authority and all, but is that "legitimate" rape? I imagined it as being Maric using his "charm" and attractive abilities to woo her, and she did it willingly because she liked him and probably thought it might lead to a better life for her and her daughter. Believe it! (talk) 04:58, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Calm down and just let the writers handle it. If not just create your own fanfiction. Your rant is very irritating.122.54.218.77 (talk) 07:15, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

What annoys me about this is that the codex clearly states that Eamon took Alistair in to save his sister, Rowan, any embarrassment. By the time of The Calling, Rowan is already dead. I know that David Gaider has said that the writers of the codex didn't consult him (or something like that), but still...if we can't rely upon the codex - which should be sacrosanct - well, what can we believe in? *melodramatic sigh* Isabeau Cousland (talk) 23:05, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

The Codex entries are written from an in-universe perspective and aren't reliable as 100% factual all the time. 67.61.238.87 (talk) 02:23, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Here's the real question though; how could the ones who wrote the Origins story not have consulted with Gaiderp? Who gave them authority to write a different storyline? Sounds to me like wrote one story, then decided to write another that contradicted the first, and they just didn't think it through. Believe it! (talk) 04:58, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

To me it seems like the story presented in the game about Alistair being the son of a maid was going to be correct and just that when The Calling was being written, they messed up and became confused about parentage and either they didn't catch the mistake in time or caught it very late that they didn't want to re-write everything and just decided to roll with it. 174.17.232.245 (talk) 23:24, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

Maybe the maid was an elf? It isn't completely confirmed to be Fiona (although, at this point I'm almost betting on it). Kind of invalidates some of Alistair's character, in my opinion, if it is Fiona. Vexed Forest (talk) 01:22, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Goldanna would have remembered if her own mother was an elf, and it never got brought up at all. 67.61.238.87 (talk) 02:24, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Finally!! God. It feels good that this is finally confirmed. Now all the debates I had with people(I'm Vincent Cousland) can finally end. I never had any doubt whatsoever that Fiona was Alistair's mother. There were just too many things to connect the dots with. It just makes zero sense to have another Therein child out there. Also, ending The Calling(The book that came out right before Origins) with a baby that was Maric and Fiona's and then meeting a bastard of Maric in Origin's would be stupid if the baby wasn't Alistair. I just wish they confirmed it in the comics. Laidlaw is full of it when he says it was never a secret. No once did anyone ever confirm it. There were so many heated debates over it. It should have gotten the proper confirmation. Hopefully Alistair will find this out in Inquisition. But anywho, I'm just so glad this is over!--174.141.181.171 (talk) 02:59, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Congratulations on being right that Alistair's backstory makes no sense. Stay tuned for plenty of the same fan-rage though. Believe it! (talk) 04:58, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Wow don't be so rude. If this doesn't make sense to you, why don't just create a big damn fanfiction about it.122.54.218.77 (talk) 07:20, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Well, he might not be nice about it, but it doesn't make him wrong. He has a very good point. The irony of your comment is that it's not *his* job to make sense out of this situation, it's the actual writers jobs to do that, you know, the thing we pay them for. EzzyD (talk) 10:06, July 10, 2014 (UTC)