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this was on of the questions and answers at raptr:
"Q: Ok so dragon age 1 was my favorite out of the 2 games. I liked the fighting stile better on da2. Ive beaten the first game with every charicter type. My fav was my dalish elf named turrin. In one of the endings i chose to breed my elf with morgan. Will their sons look half elf? And are you planning on bringing back race for charicter selection in the future games? Because honestley that was my favorite thing about dao A: There are no half elves in DA. The Human side always dominates the appearance. Hence Alistair (MD)" source:http://www.princessstabbity.com/raptr-q-a-with-the-bioware-devs-july-8-2014
SPOILERS FROM DRAGON AGE THE CALLING COMING UP:
In Dragon Age The Calling, King Maric had a brief romance with a female elven Grey Warden named Fiona, who became pregnant after gaining an immunity to the taint. She gave birth to her and Maric's son, who was born human and looked Maric The child was never given a name and was speculated to be Alistair. They did not say Fiona was Alistair's mother, but it seems more likely now that he is confirmed to be half-elven.
That would mean that Goldanna is also half-elven maybe the mother as a thing for humans xp but yeah it seams pretty much confirmed and Fiona is now the leader of the apostate mages soooo she is important xpFaye Cousland (talk) 00:09, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
- That does not mean Goldanna is half-elven. The commonly held theory about Fiona being Alistair's mother was that when she made Maric to promise to make sure her child never knew who his mother, Maric agreed. Not telling Eamon the whole truth (because a royal bastard would have been bad enough, but a half-elven royal bastard would have been too much), Eamon knew what to do. A maid was pregnant and about to give birth, and as it turned out she died in childbirth. Presumably the child died as well because Eamon was able to pass it off as Maric's bastard as the newborn, throwing in the story about the maid and Maric having an affair. Goldanna raising questions was passed off as a child making noise after her mother's death and she was sent off with a couple of coins and told to shut the hell up. In essence, Alistair is a take on the changling, a child replaced with a doppelganger and raised in it's place.
- Alistair being a bastard is an open secret among the nobility in Ferelden, but only three people knew his mother was an elf, Maric, Duncan and Fiona. Two of those people are dead and conspiracies work best when there's only a couple of people in the know. So again, Goldanna is not Alistair's biological sister, she is not half elven.--Madasamadthing (talk) 00:31, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
The problem with the theory that Fiona is his mother is the timeline i mean duncan was like 16 or smth in the book and now he is in his 40ies and alistair is what? 20smth? also Rowan was still alive Cailan was really small. Its very unlikely i think.Faye Cousland (talk) 01:02, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
- Do bear in mind as well that David Gaider admitted that he screwed up the timeline with the first couple of novels. Cailan was in his very late 20s when he died (possibly 29 or so given that the Blight occurred in 9:30 Dragon), and Rowan was already dead for a couple of years by the time of the events in the Calling novel. Alistair would possibly be in his late teens/early 20s. Which makes sense seeing as how he was still a Templar initiate when he was recruited into the Grey Wardens and not a full Templar and the slightly childish and naive attitude he has, because really, he is still just a kid.--Madasamadthing (talk) 01:44, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
- Duncan was 18, not 16, during The Calling and the timeline isn't completely off. There's still roughly 20 years between the book and Origins. Jessica Sutter (talk) 02:28, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
Fiona is Alistair's mother. Confirmed on Twitter https://twitter.com/Mike_Laidlaw/status/486584356337487872. Turuzzusapatuttu (talk) 13:43, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
What a load of shit! Yes I know the staff confirmed it, but it's still a poorly written plot element. Many problems with this.
1. Duncan's age and years in the Wardens before being near his calling (as said by Alistair) are put into question. He might be too young to match his age in Origins, or not near enough to his calling for Alistair to know he was in the final stages.
2. Loghain's statements about Maric nearly recognizing Alistair except that it would have disgraced Rowan and put Cailan's claim in doubt are basically made out to be lies. Loghain makes it sound like Rowan was alive while Maric cheated on her to conceive Alistair and may have even been born before Cailan. But if these are not true and Rowan was dead by the time Alistair was conceived, then... why didn't Maric claim Alistair again?
3. Even if that were a lie, the extra lie of saying Alistair was the son of a maid who actually existed and who actually died giving birth is illogical. Why would Maric, Loghain, or Eamon link Alistair to a dead mother that was not his? Why not simply claim the mother was some unknown human at a Chantry? It doesn't make sense to link him to a woman who actually existed and already had a daughter (Goldanna). Also consider that this "lie" was not meant for anyone. It was basically just Maric, Loghian, and Eamon keeping this "lie" as a secret, in which case, what's the point? They could have just kept the truth to themselves.
4. What's with the amulet? If Fiona is Alistair's mother, then where did the Andraste amulet come from? Fiona didn't leave him that. And if that was a lie too, then why did Eamon bother piecing it back together? Eamon spent all that time reassembling another lie?
5. Why would Duncan agree to watch over Alistair if he was being given over to Eamon? That only makes sense if the child had no one to look after him.
6. Alistair being linked to Maric at all contradicts what Fiona wanted, which was for her child to be raised away from court. Same goes for sending him to an arling.
7. This basically makes Maric, Loghain, and Eamon horrible, horrible people. Aside from the Walter White-esque fabrication of giving a common amulet to Alistair and saying it was from his dead mother, there's also the fact that you're saying his existence in this world is the cause of his mother's death. Meaning, each one of his birthdays (name-days) is the anniversary of his mother... dying. ... ... ... Hip-hip-Hooray!
8. Again with the amulet, a scene that MUST have happened off-screen is Alistair thanking Eamon like he said he was going to do for piecing the amulet back together. So did Eamon fake a sentimental moment with Alistair when he thanked him? He must have because Alistair still thinks his mother was some dead maid! And for all we know, Eamon only pieced that amulet back together because it cost him 5 silvers and he was mad that Alistair broke it! He may not have even intended to ever give that thing back to Alistair! HOLY SHIT ALISTAIR'S LIFE IS DEPRESSING!!!!! Believe it! (talk) 19:52, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
- Basically the problem is that at some point there was a drastic change in what Alistair's character was supposed to be. I'm pretty sure he was originally supposed to be a good deal older. As for the other things, I think it's because this wasn't some grand conspiracy between Maric, Eamon, and Loghain- if it was I think the lies would have made more sense. It breaks down into three men who had different motivations and opinions
- 1. Maric, while he did want to keep Alistair, respected Fiona's wishes and sent him away to be raised without his heritage(s) hanging over his head. But he still wanted to make sure that he was well taken care of, so he sent Alistair to his brother in law, a man he presumably trusted.
- 2. Eamon, per Maric's (and by extention, Fiona's) instructions planned to tell Alistair that his mother was human and dead. This is where things get complicated. It's possible that Eamon intended Goldanna's mother to be Alistair's wet nurse, or foster mother, only for chance to intervene and she died in childbirth. Or perhaps Eamon just took advantage of the circumstances to provide an explanation for this mysterious baby he was looking after. I prefer the first one since it leaves more opportunities for a young Goldanna to overhear something and get confused about the father of her mother's child (as opposed to a foster brother. I also think the amulet was from Eamon all along, which is why he had it repaired.
- 3. Loghain. I just really don't think Loghain was in on much of this. He didn't approve of Maric's actions in The Calling, obviously, and didn't trust the Wardens. I'm sure the whole thing made him furious. I think that when he said Maric didn't acknowledge Alistair because it would be a disgrace to Rowan that was just his own (highly biased) opinion.
- So yeah, a lot of this is messed up because I don't think they planned it out, but it makes a certain kind of sense if your willing to give it a chance. More so than Maric being completely callous and a possible rapist, at least.--Liam Sionnach (talk) 20:20, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think this has anything to do with the characters' motives. I think this mistake is all on Gaiderp. They created ONE story for Alistair in Origins, and then after heavily investing in that one story, Gaiderp decided to change it around so that Alistair had a completely different backstory and he literally hand-waved established canon to do so. Meanwhile that first story hangs there creating all kinds of plot holes.
- 1. Again, if Fiona wanted him raised away from court, sending him to Eamon is a bad idea since he runs an arling. Think... the Commander of the Grey's duties in Awakening, only without being a Grey Warden. And this is when Eamon was childless. Besides, when Eamon was no longer able to look after him due to Isolde's... irritating mouth noises constantly scratching his eardrum then how is packing Alistair off to the Chantry to become a templar the better idea? By that point Alistair would have been a teen, and going to live in Denerim at the palace would not have been any different than living there. And to top it off, Anora confirms that Cailan was aware of Alistair the whole time. I mean come on. It's like, Alistair has a different origin but still has the same upbringing, and the upbringing story was written based off the original origin story and does not fit the new one.
- 2. Problem with that; if Alistair was sent to Eamon from Maric, then Alistair was already a grown baby, not a newborn. So however old he was before Fiona turned him over, plus the time it took to move Alistair to Redcliff (unless she met Maric at Redcliff for some reason). That means matching Alistair to a dead maid whose baby did not survive would not work because Alistair wouldn't be a newborn. The timing is all screwed up. Another problem; if they were going to lie and say Alistair's mother was human and dead then why didn't they... just say... his mother was... human... and dead? Why falsely link him to a real human woman who died giving birth, thus making Alistair the child she died giving birth to? I mean, I suppose in Ferelden that is better than being born to an elven Grey Warden mage somehow, but it's still not a good thing. If Eamon had free license to make something up, it doesn't make sense to use a real life event to hide a child's origins. Was Eamon drunk or something? Did he lack imagination? Did he think involving Alistair with a complete stranger and her family was a good idea and thought to himself, "what could possibly go wrong"? Then when Goldanna came asking about her mommy and the baby she was expected to give birth to, Eamon chose to shoo her away with some gold and the idea that the "babe" survived? AND Maric was cool with all this? This also implies that Goldanna was allowed to see her mother's body, but not the baby who was said to have passed away during birth. Why not? If this really happened then why not show both? Did they purposely take the baby's body away so that it could be said the "babe" survived and that "babe" was Alistair? Fine, but why say this to Goldanna?
- Like I said earlier, I think that Goldanna's mother might have been the woman Eamon planned to have take care of Alistair, but she died in childbirth. But that's just a guess. We can hardly guess what Eamon's motives were in picking Goldanna's mother as a story once she was dead, laziness maybe? Does it matter that much? More importantly I don't think Maric was involved at this point, I saw it more as "This is my illegitimate son, he's to be raised as a peasant and not to know of his heritage- but see that he's taken care of," The bits about Goldanna, who knows, Eamon is kind of a dick.--Liam Sionnach (talk) 15:13, July 10, 2014 (UTC)
- 3. Loghain said more than just "disgraced". He said it would have reduced Rowan to a concubine and put Cailan's claim into question. That's pretty specific, and this was said during a time when Loghain had absolutely no reason to maintain any lie whatsoever. Alistair's existence as Maric's son post-Rowan was revealed, Alistair had left the Wardens and Ferelden after renouncing all claim, my male human noble and Anora were set to be married and rule jointly, Maric and Rowan were not around anymore, and would Loghain really give a damn about Fiona's wishes? He said those things like he really believed them. He also said he encouraged Maric not to recognize Alistair at ANY point, not just as an infant. Besides, if Maric didn't cheat on Rowan, then what's the issue? She was dead. People are allowed to form new relationships after their spouse dies. And if Loghain was mad that Maric did not stay faithful to Rowan's memory, then why did he still protect him by lying to my custom character (which didn't matter one way or the other at that point)? Loghain loved Rowan, so why not voice disapproval at Maric's choice? Even in the cover story Maric still betrayed Rowan's memory with the maid. So... Loghain admitted that Maric was unfaithful to Rowan's memory, but not who with? That doesn't make sense.
- The devs have said that Alistair was originally supposed to be much older, I think this is where some of the weirdness of Loghain's lines about him come from. So I do see how this annoying that they changed it. But his reaction still makes sense from a character stand point- he was in love with Rowan, but they sacrificed their happiness for the good of Ferelden- and Maric. How could he not see it as a betrayal when Maric up and abandoned his kingdom, and his son, for some foolhardy quest with the Grey Wardens, and worse to have a child by one of them (and an Orlesian at that)? I have no answer to the cover story bits, because I don't remember if Loghain mentions the maid or not. But we agree that they changed Alistair's story at some point, I think it just doesn't bother me as much because I always thought there were some serious holes in his backstory pre-Fiona.--Liam Sionnach (talk) 15:13, July 10, 2014 (UTC)
- I agree the "writers" never planned this out, but this new story doesn't make sense. Maric was callous no matter which way you slice it, and even MORE so if you incorporate the new storyline that Maric deceived Alistair into believing a terrible lie about who his mother really was (and now the same would go for Eamon). The way I have always seen this issue is that the story about the maid giving birth to Alistair was TRUE (and indeed the maid really existed and died giving birth), and Loghain and Eamon did their best to cover up the truth that the baby was Alistair. That's the only way this makes sense, because it isn't logical to falsely tie Alistair's origin to a real life event like that. It is simpler to just make up a lie with no specifics or real identities involved. Also, I don't think Maric was a rapist according to the original storyline. That was just Goldanna's biased assumption. I mean, it's kinda rape-y him being in authority and all, but is that "legitimate" rape? I imagined it as being Maric using his "charm" and attractive abilities to woo her, and she did it willingly because she liked him and probably thought it might lead to a better life for her and her daughter. Believe it! (talk) 04:58, July 10, 2014 (UTC)
- Maric was respecting Fiona's wishes, and it clearly pained him to do so. I don't see how that's callous. The lie was most likely Eamon's doing. Personally, I like the Fiona version of things better, because I could not get my head around how Maric from Stolen Throne could handle Alistair's existence like he did- the Calling explains it. And I don't mind the inconsistencies that much, because it makes sense to me that Eamon screwed up and they're the holes in his lies. But I can see how you'd prefer it the other way, the more low fantasy everybody is awful Song of Ice and Fire kind of way (not a criticism, that was a huge influence on the game).--Liam Sionnach (talk) 15:13, July 10, 2014 (UTC)
What annoys me about this is that the codex clearly states that Eamon took Alistair in to save his sister, Rowan, any embarrassment. By the time of The Calling, Rowan is already dead. I know that David Gaider has said that the writers of the codex didn't consult him (or something like that), but still...if we can't rely upon the codex - which should be sacrosanct - well, what can we believe in? *melodramatic sigh* Isabeau Cousland (talk) 23:05, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
- The Codex entries are written from an in-universe perspective and aren't reliable as 100% factual all the time. 22.214.171.124 (talk) 02:23, July 10, 2014 (UTC)
- Here's the real question though; how could the ones who wrote the Origins story not have consulted with Gaiderp? Who gave them authority to write a different storyline? Sounds to me like wrote one story, then decided to write another that contradicted the first, and they just didn't think it through. Believe it! (talk) 04:58, July 10, 2014 (UTC)
To me it seems like the story presented in the game about Alistair being the son of a maid was going to be correct and just that when The Calling was being written, they messed up and became confused about parentage and either they didn't catch the mistake in time or caught it very late that they didn't want to re-write everything and just decided to roll with it. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 23:24, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
Maybe the maid was an elf? It isn't completely confirmed to be Fiona (although, at this point I'm almost betting on it). Kind of invalidates some of Alistair's character, in my opinion, if it is Fiona. Vexed Forest (talk) 01:22, July 10, 2014 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure Goldanna would have remembered if her own mother was an elf, and it never got brought up at all. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 02:24, July 10, 2014 (UTC)
Finally!! God. It feels good that this is finally confirmed. Now all the debates I had with people(I'm Vincent Cousland) can finally end. I never had any doubt whatsoever that Fiona was Alistair's mother. There were just too many things to connect the dots with. It just makes zero sense to have another Therein child out there. Also, ending The Calling(The book that came out right before Origins) with a baby that was Maric and Fiona's and then meeting a bastard of Maric in Origin's would be stupid if the baby wasn't Alistair. I just wish they confirmed it in the comics. Laidlaw is full of it when he says it was never a secret. No once did anyone ever confirm it. There were so many heated debates over it. It should have gotten the proper confirmation. Hopefully Alistair will find this out in Inquisition. But anywho, I'm just so glad this is over!--184.108.40.206 (talk) 02:59, July 10, 2014 (UTC)
- Congratulations on being right that Alistair's backstory makes no sense. Stay tuned for plenty of the same fan-rage though. Believe it! (talk) 04:58, July 10, 2014 (UTC)
- Well, he might not be nice about it, but it doesn't make him wrong. He has a very good point. The irony of your comment is that it's not *his* job to make sense out of this situation, it's the actual writers jobs to do that, you know, the thing we pay them for. EzzyD (talk) 10:06, July 10, 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks Ez. IP'er, I don't see what was rude about that. I congratulated him for being correct about Alistair's backstory... which doesn't make sense now. Then I pointed out that fans are still going to rage over how it makes no sense. BTW, I'm not going to rage. I'll post my thoughts, but in the end it doesn't really matter to me. My fanon is still the original storyline, unless Inquisition wants to do something more with this. Believe it! (talk) 00:24, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
BS over BS over BS. To make Fiona and Alistair even more special they went against a game and a book. People used to call them "cheap writers", didn't know why. I think I got it. The hype for DA:I it's under my shoes. I cannot imagine what kind of gimmicks the characters are. I bet it's going to be DA2: the Return of the Bad Written.--Damx (talk) 15:30, July 10, 2014 (UTC)
- I agree. In air travel, especially when flying to a remote location, there is something in the flight path called "the point of no return". It's the point where you cannot turn around and make it back to your place of departure on what fuel you have left. You MUST keep flying to your destination after that point. Well, the point of no return for Alistair's origin story has a name, and its name is "Goldanna". The writers crossed that point, got near their destination, and then decided to turn around before landing, thus running out of fuel, and crashing and burning. Had the maid not been identified as actually existing, and Goldanna confirming it, then they may have been able to retcon this story into one that Alistair was told to conceal the identity of his mother. But no, they invested too much into it, with Loghain's statements too, and now it's just a flaming wreck. Believe it! (talk) 00:24, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
I think people are over-analyzing the details here. It certainly makes sense for Fiona to be Alistair's mother, and the whole serving maid to be a cover story. Let me cover several of the points listed above.
1. Duncan's age and his calling. The devs have stated that in general its around 30 years before a calling but can be shorter. Duncan has spent some time in the deep roads, and not only in the calling novel. We know he's visited the dwarves and fought darkspawn in the deeproads (he does it in the dwarven origins). We also know a blight can accelerate a warden's calling, and it just so happens there is a blight in Origins. Furthermore, Duncan DIDNT leave for his calling yet by the time of Origins, he only said to Alistair that he was close.
2. Loghain talking about Rowan's memory and how Maric didn't want to dishonor it. Maric probably lied to Loghain about his reasons for not openly recognizing Alistair. Remember that their friendship was significanltly strained, especially in regards to the love triangle (or rectangle) that was going on in the Calling. I don't find it hard to beleive AT ALL that Maric would lie and be like, "no this totally isn't the child of that elf I slept with. He's definately human".
3. Why would Alistair be given to Eamon and the thing with the serving girl made up? This is entirely to cover up the fact that Alistair is half-elven. Elves, and half elves, are discriminated against all the time. If there is going to be a cover story, it has to be more involved than just "He's totally human, trust me. Who's the mother? None your business thats who." Because that certainly wouldn't raise any suspicions or anything. As for Eamon raising Alistair, what did you expect? For Maric to give his son to a commoner so he could live his whole life as a dirt poor farmer? This is a feudal society after all, being given to a wealthy family is much better than being a commoner.
4. The amulet thing. Who says Fiona never gave the amulet to Alistair? She is still alive, there are years unaccounted for where she could have passed the amulet to Alistair through some third party. Alistair is the one who thought it was the only momento he had, how was he supposed to know his mother is still alive and well?
Well that's all I have to say. I don't know why people focus in on the smallest details when the bigger evidence says the opposite. The devs say Fiona is the mother, so she is and that's really the bottom line. Focusing on things like "Duncan should have his calling 30 years later and not 25" seems pointless to me. Drake72 (talk) 15:40, July 10, 2014 (UTC)
@Liam Sionnach But Alistair didn't spend all his time in the stables. He even says there was a time when Cailan visited the castle and the two of them breifly met. Anora confirms that Cailan knew of Alistair's parentage, which I think points to Maric telling Cailan about Alistair. Isolde was a bit of a nutcase back then. She suspected that Alistair was Eamon's illegitimate son, which is why she wanted him gone. Again, confirming that Alistair did not stay exclusively in a stable. But this also proves Isolde didn't know Alistair was Maric's. Had she known that, she wouldn't have wanted Alistair sent away. By the way, I don't think anyone ever found out that Alistair was Maric's. Even in DA:O the only ones who know are Duncan, Loghain, Cailan, Eamon, Teagan, and then Anora and Isolde through one of the aforementioned men, and Alistair of course. Based on the dialogue options for a human noble, it could be assumed that even the Couslands didn't know about it.
Yes Liam, it matters very much. It's the difference between a well written story and a poorly written story. It also presents implications about other characters like Eamon and yes even Maric. He was king. He always had a choice in the matter. He chose to tell Cailan after all, didn't he? I think you prove my point well. I never saw Eamon as a dick. The only thing that might make him a dick is this new development that he fabricated a lie about Alistair's origin and wrongly linked him to existing people thus bringing more pain and trauma to him and now these other people as well. And if the mother was a maid who worked in a castle then who was the father exactly? I know he isn't named, but if word ever got out that it was Maric then it would cast him in a very negative light as well, don't you think?
And ya know what, I just thought of something... Who was the real father of this maid's baby? And why would Goldanna think it was someone royal? If the maid was not impregnated by Maric, then it is most likely that she laid with another man willingly, carried the child all those months to where Goldanna would know her mother was pregnant, and Goldanna would logically ask about how the baby was made. So wouldn't the maid have told her daughter that it was a man... who was not a noble? Wouldn't she have pointed the real father out to her? Wouldn't Goldanna have met this man? This is just causing more plot holes.
Anyway, Eamon making up a story that Maric took advantage of a maid who actually existed is not a good cover story. Simply saying the woman was human and unknown is much better, and the most simplistic.
Right, Alistair was supposed to be older. I agree. I thought he was older than that in Origins based on appearance. So this is indeed a case of the "writers" not giving a shit. Loghain's reaction doesn't fit Maric simply having a kid with Fiona. And regardless of whether Loghain knew the maid story or not, he did know the truth. So him airing his disapproval with Maric to my male human noble would have been acceptable. Of course he couldn't because that storyline didn't exist at the time. But it's yet another case of a canon source being contradicted by this new story.
I didn't see any holes in the backstory, especially when Alistair was supposed to be older (born when Rowan was still alive). Now the story is full of plot holes and it casts characters in a bad light.
It's callous to Alistair. Maric could have provided a better life for him instead of shipping him off to his brother-in-law and imposing on him and his family. I also don't understand how the lie would be Eamon's doing. I would imagine him accepting Maric's request to take care of Alistair, but wouldn't Eamon logically ask Maric what he should tell the boy eventually? I can't see Eamon taking such liberties on his own, especially when saying the wrong thing can cause problems for the throne of Ferelden. No. I don't see Eamon making that story up, at least not on his own. Also, Loghain knew about Alistair. Eamon would not have told Loghain anything about it. So yes, the lie must have been Maric's as Maric was the only one who could have told Loghain and Cailan.
I've always seen Maric as a douche. Regardless of Alistair's mother, the fact that Maric isolated his son at all proves that much. And if Maric is so noble in Stolen Throne, then the dishonor of what he did still applies. In fact, it may even be more dishonorable because in the first story, he did it to prevent a scandal that may have caused strife in Ferelden. In this new case, he had no good reason to send Alistair away. A female who knowingly helped create a child brings said child to his father and tells him she wants their son to have a good life raised away from the father and the court, and that the child should be told his mother is human and dead, all while she plays absolutely no role in looking after her own child! If Maric had a shred of honor he would have ignored her wishes and done what was best for his child. Period. Maric is more awful in this new story, and now Eamon is too.
- I have only a few things to left to say, since I think it's obvious to both of us that we simply won't agree on this matter. Firstly, I'm wondering if you read the books, because your last paragraph here kind of makes me think you haven't. That's important because they are the only places you actually see Maric as a character and not an abstract hero figure or the rose-tinted/bitter memories of other characters. It was easy for me to accept the change to Alistair's backstory because Maric from the Stolen Throne and The Calling just wasn't the sort of character who would take advantage of a serving woman. So when a new explanation comes up- that the original story was a lie, that just makes more sense to me. That's it, that's where I'm coming from. Goldanna and Loghain's reactions still make sense to me character-wise, so it doesn't bother me. Eamon still bugs me, but he bugged me before I read the books too, so I'm used to it.--Liam Sionnach (talk) 05:18, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
- I have not read any of the books. But my opinion of him was based on his actions involving Alistair's treatment, and that is enough I think. I can condemn him for his dishonorable actions, just as I can condemn Loghain for his. Their past noble deeds don't make up for their wrongs. Again, who said he took advantage of a serving woman? I mean, who other than Goldanna? Nothing in the old story suggested that Maric took advantage of anyone. Goldanna only assumed so out of bitterness. I don't know what bugged you about Eamon. He seemed like a well-meaning man who did his best under such circumstances. In any case, even if you accept this new storyline, Maric still roped that maid into his lie and caused Alistair a lot of undue grief in the process. Believe it! (talk) 07:27, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
@Drake72 1. That would be a rational explanation, except that the Blight did not begin until 9:30. Duncan was near his calling before that point. Just because an archdemon is created doesn't mean there is a Blight yet. The archdemon has to gather the proper forces and then start issuing commands in order for a Blight to begin. Duncan didn't sense a Blight until a few months before Ostagar.
2. You mean the love triangle in Stolen Throne. I don't see Maric lying to Loghain. He dishonored Rowan's memory regardless of who the mother was. So the love triangle tension would be strained either way. If he was going to lie to Loghain anyway, why let him in on it at all? And if he did lie, why use an existing maid? Why not say it was some nameless human woman? Besides, Loghain tells it like Maric was going to recognize Alistair except that Loghain convinced him otherwise and used Rowan and Cailan as reasons. So it wasn't Maric's excuse, it was Loghain's reasons for Maric not to recognize Alistair.
3. I understand wanting to cover up that Alistair is half-elf. The question is why they would use an existing human female who died giving birth as his origin in this lie. Typically, a cover story is something that cannot be easily disproved. Saying Alistair was born to some unknown human woman would have been much better since no one would be able to disprove it. Proving that Alistair was not born to that specific maid was entirely possible. No one needed to say that Alistair was not half-elf, and they didn't need to prove who the parents were. If they had to use this dead human female maid as proof, then what about the father? Wouldn't they also have to name him in order to prove the child was not half-elf? But such things do not have to be proven. Half-elves look the same as humans. Furthermore, it isn't good to link Alistair to complete strangers that had nothing to do with it. Also, Maric could have found an actual family for Alistair had he wanted to. He also could have had Eamon find well-paying jobs for the parents in that family so Alistair could have a decent life.
4. First, it was Eamon who gave Alistair the amulet and said it belonged to his mother. Fiona was anti-Chant, and nothing says she left anything behind for Alistair. Even if she did give it to Eamon to give to Alistair, he still thinks she's human and dead. I'm not faulting Alistair for anything. The point is that Eamon is making up more lies for no reason.
Perhaps Maric left Alistair with Goldanna's mother who was pro-Chantry, a servant of Eamon, and died shortly after. Her family for some didn't take him in while Maric made an excuse for Eamon to look after him. Even though Maric had no queen at the time, he was convinced not to take Alistair to compromise the family. I know that has some holes, but I honestly don't know how to explain it. They only confirmed what I expected all along. Should we edit the family tree now?--Mike Gilbert 01:44, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
- I don't see why not. I mean, personally, I wouldn't change anything until it is confirmed in an actual game or book, but that's just me. I don't care enough about the issue to oppose any changes to the wiki. As for that possible storyline you posted, we would still have Goldanna to contend with. If the maid mother took the infant Alistair then Goldanna would have been aware of him even while her mother was pregnant. Goldanna believed that her pregnant mother died giving birth, and that her baby died too (though she suspected the baby lived). So if that baby was not Alistair, and Goldanna knew her mother was taking care of Alistair, she would not have gotten it into her head that Alistair was the baby her mother died giving birth to. Also, she would have told Alistair that they aren't related, and that her mother took Alistair in then died shortly after. Also, if the amulet belonged to the maid, why would Eamon take it and give it to Alistair instead of Goldanna IF the maid was not Alistair's true mother? Like you wrote, plot holes no matter what now that the story is changed. That's just the way it is I guess. Believe it! (talk) 03:54, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
- Just another reason why they should update this games. No matter how many years it takes.--Mike Gilbert 04:09, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
Reading the epilogue of the Calling again, it appears Loghain isn't in Denerim when Fiona arrives, baby in tow. They also arrive in secrecy, so presumably their arrival (and that of the baby) probably wasn't observed. (More specifically, he has tricked Loghain into leaving the city so the Wardens can arrive without attracting his attention.)
After presenting her son to him, Fiona tells Maric, "What I want is for him to be human. I want him to be fully human and not in line for your throne." They also have the exchange: "Andraste's grace, but Loghain isn't going to like this." "So don't tell him."
The easiest way to make the stories mesh (and I will grant you that I feel like not all of the writing team was made aware of the Secret Elven Mother storyline, but I don't think the oversight is quite so huge as one makes it out to be) is to assume that Maric simply doesn't tell anyone else the truth. He could probably find a maid who had died in childbirth recently, say she was the mother, and summon Eamon to raise the baby down at Redcliffe before Loghain came back from Gwaren (he wasn't due for at least another month). Loghain probably won't question it ("So that's why you had me go to Gwaren"), and Eamon seems the sort who would try to learn about the mother, because he thinks her child deserves to know the truth. (And it's hard to not know who the mother is, and the point of giving him a dead mother is so he wouldn't try to find her later.) So at the very least this shouldn't force reevaluations of any of the characters we see in the games.
Goldanna is probably the biggest problem with the arc. Perhaps, rather than a deliberate 'aha, we found this maid who died!' on Maric's part, Eamon did some investigating of his own and discovered Goldanna's mother, who, by some coincidence, matched closely enough with Maric's story that he believed he'd found the true mother. Then Goldanna heard him asking questions and was paid to keep quiet about it.
On at least some level, of course, it's clear that at least some wires were crossed when Alistair's story happened. I just think there's a probably reasonable interpretation that doesn't involve massive conspiracy or leave gaping plot holes. Rcrantz (talk) 05:10, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
- I applaud the effort, I really do, but there are still some major problems. First, I concede that Loghain was not there to see it go down, and that Maric could have told him anything. But, as you wrote, Fiona told him not to tell Loghain AT ALL. Based on Loghain's statements and the events in Origins, Maric did tell him something.
- Now let's assume a maid died giving birth to a baby who also died and Maric just happened to hear about this "highly important" event. The problem is why Maric would bother using that maid and baby as a cover story in the first place, but especially without checking to see if such a story was plausible. Maric would have to investigate to make sure the woman was not married or some unknown male would claim the dead child as his. Any investigation would have uncovered Goldanna, in which case it ruins Maric's plan to tie Alistair to the dead mother. Again, the easier lie is to just say you don't know who the baby's parents are, or that they were some random people who fought in the war and who died just recently.
- But okay, let's assume Maric didn't plan that out very well and tied Alistair to the dead maid. So then why did Maric still claim Alistair as his own to Loghain and Eamon? This necessarily makes him the maid's lover at some point. Again, why not just say the maid died, the baby lived, and we don't know who the father is?
- But whatever, let's say Maric told Loghain and Eamon that he was the father for whatever reason... honor, I guess. Well, isn't that the exact thing Fiona wanted Maric NOT to do? Claiming him gives him a claim to the throne!
- I understand giving him a dead mother, because that's what Fiona wanted anyway, and saying she died is basically saying that "she didn't leave you by choice". But saying she died because she gave birth to Alistair? That's just... messed up!
- And why would Goldanna suspect Eamon of anything? Just for asking about the woman who died giving birth to her baby? I'm sure there were a lot of people in the city asking about the situation and who the mother was as a person. And for that matter, how would Goldanna know about Eamon asking questions? Did Eamon ask Goldanna directly? Seems he would just ask the city folk or some of the lords. She was paid to keep quiet about what? That Eamon asked about a tragic story? Goldanna says her questions were about the baby, whom she suspected survived. Which brings up another interesting point. If Eamon was under the impression that the child lived, then why would he think the maid was the child's mother when her baby actually died? Seems to me Eamon would rule her out as the source of the child, not assume that she was the mother. It also stands to reason that Goldanna would have no reason to believe her mother's baby lived if in fact that baby died. So what, did that baby live and get taken by Maric and sent somewhere else in order to clear a spot for Alistair, thus giving Goldanna a reason to suspect her mother's baby lived? Believe it! (talk) 07:27, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
- Well, the best way to make sure the baby lives a good life is probably to say to Eamon, "Hey, buddy, I have a bastard son that I can't raise at court for obvious reasons. Can you give him a good home? Obviously this should be as secret as possible." And Loghain, as a trusted adviser, should probably at least know something.
- So, let's say Eamon went around asking "I believe the king had an affair with a serving woman, who had a baby and died in childbirth." Goldanna, if she was still at the castle, could easily hear about this via gossip circles and confront Eamon about it, and since he's trying to keep the whole "Maric had a bastard son" thing quiet, he'd bribe her to keep her mouth shut, because Eamon doesn't seem like he'd be very good at the whole subterfuge thing. (He, or someone else, also might have interpreted 'oh, she and the baby both died' as 'Maric secreted the baby away so no one would ever know.')
- Everyone involved in telling this story to Alistair (and, by extension, to the player in DAO) is an unreliable narrator. Eamon and Loghain were lied to, and are trying to recall the details of a lie told to them twenty years ago. Goldanna was a child at the time, and childhood memories have a tendency to be less than reliable. (Alternatively, maybe the real babe did survive and was just shipped off to the chantry under cover of darkness.)
- Another alternative, I suppose, is that Eamon never bothered with an investigation. Perhaps Maric told him 'this belonged to his mother, he'll want to have it' because he felt it would make the lie seem more plausible. So it's only Alistair's investigation in DAO that "uncovers" this maid who died in childbirth at about the same time. (Rumors among serving staff may have been the entire source of Goldanna's suspicion, and she may have been paid to stop asking about the king's son by any Fereldan with a sense of loyalty to their king.)
- It's all a bit byzantine, but if we take everything at face value, there's got to be several tiers of deception in the story. Maric lied to Eamon, who repeated his understanding of the lie to Alistair, who found someone who sort of matched the description based on this third-hand deception later on.
- As for whether it's worse to tell a child his mother died in childbirth or at some later date, it's hard to say, but I don't think it makes it more of a plot hole. Dragon Age is fond of its difficult moral decisions, and Maric made one with Alistair. Whether it was the right one or not doesn't seem relevant to this discussion (and is a call I don't think I'm qualified to make in any case).
- Very true. Loghain's comment about Rowan seems likely (in-universe) to be his (inaccurate) understand of when Alistair was conceived. If I recall correctly, he says Maric "very nearly did" acknowledge Alistair as his biological son which would suggest Maric discussed the issue with him at some point. Maric must've just lied to him about exactly when Alistair was conceived to prevent it from getting around to anyone other than Fiona and Duncan that he had an elf blooded bastard son. The death of Goldanna's mother in child birth and her second child being stillborn was a matter of expediency, they needed a stand in "mother" for Maric's bastard son so they went with someone who just recently died in child birth and Goldanna was actually told the truth about her mother and the babe dying and paid off to prevent any chance of drawing unnecessary attention to the whole situation.
My sentiments exactly Rcrantz but these forums generally thrive on hysteria and misguided outrage. Hence why you get so many people like Believidiot!
STOP THE PRESSES EVERYONE!!! I just thought of something that solves this entire thing easily, neatly, and with NO plot holes or illogical storylines!
*ALERT! SPOILERS AHEAD*
WAS A PAID AGENT OF THE CROWN!!!
MIND = BLOWN
Yes! It all makes sense now. There was never any maid at all! No maid, no real father, no dead baby, no live baby, no Goldanna! The entire thing was a deception, and everyone is in on it except Alistair! This also explains why Loghain will lie to a Warden who spares him and asks why Maric didn't recognize Alistair.
This means that Loghain devised the plan, and the plan even involved Fiona. Maric sent Alistair to Redcliff and told Eamon the cover story. Eamon bought the amulet for Alistair to fortify the deception in Alistair's childhood. Isolde was also in on it. Her role was to act hurt by the possibility that Alistair was Eamon's bastard. Eamon told Alistair to use his mother's amulet to pray to Andraste so that Isolde would let Alistair stay in the castle. When Isolde forced Alistair to leave, he then believed that praying with the amulet didn't work, so he threw it against the wall in anger. Eamon then gathered the pieces and put it back together again for a later phase of the plan.
At some point Alistair found out that his father was Maric. Before this he was told his father died before his mother did. So who told him his father was Maric?
Duncan! Ah ha, the plot thickens. Duncan got Alistair out of the Chantry by Conscripting him, but only AFTER Cailan was elected king by the banns, thus Cailan's crown was secured by the time Alistair found out about his father.
Then at Ostagar, Cailan sent Alistair to the Tower of Ishal where he thought Alistair would be safe. Again, Cailan knew Alistair was his half-brother through what Maric told him. Anora confirms this. Loghain allowed this because he knew the tower would be quickly overrun and Alistair would die. Remember, I started this by saying it was Loghain's plan. Loghain wanted to ensure that his daughter Anora would hold the throne after Cailan was killed at Ostagar. So he needed Alistair dead as well.
But Loghain's plan was foiled by Flemeth, who saved Alistair and the Warden. And who did Flemeth make a deal with in Stolen Throne? That's right... MARIC! Flemeth foresaw Loghain's plan even back then, hence her statement to Maric that Loghain would betray him. So Flemeth saved Alistair and the Warden because she knew both were needed to end the Blight. Darkspawn Chronicles confirms that Alistair can't do it without the Warden.
But Loghain couldn't logically end his plan to deceive Alistair half way. He still had to tell Maric and Eamon something past that point. Otherwise they would get suspicious. The plan continued, Eamon would eventually give the repaired amulet back to Alistair, which would encourage him to go meet with Goldanna. Eamon had tried to give it back to him each time he visited, but as Alistair said, he was too bitter to see Eamon who eventually stopped visiting.
Of course Loghain didn't care about that at this point. He needed Eamon dead so that Alistair's claim to the throne could not be brought against his daughter. The same was true of the Couslands, which Loghain ordered killed by Rendon Howe ahead of time.
Regardless, Alistair eventually seeks out Goldanna, based on information that was fed to him by Eamon or his operatives. Goldanna was actually a paid agent of the crown. Eamon hired her to act as a washerwoman in Denerim. She solidified the deception by playing the part of the victim, thus completely brainwashing Alistair to make him think his mother really was a serving girl at Redcliff Castle.
The next step was for Goldanna to leave Denerim after meeting with Alistair, never to be seen or heard from again. She would retire to a nice coastal mansion in Antiva and have servants of her own.
At least, that's what Goldanna, Maric, and Eamon were told! Loghain couldn't take the risk that Goldanna would have a change of heart and spill the beans to Alistair afterward. So... Phase 37: Goldanna and her five children burn to death in a house fire! As we see in the final battle of Denerim, Goldanna's house is burned down. :)
Now at this point you may be thinking that I've completely lost my mind, but you'd be wrong. Yes, I know it was the Darkspawn that burned Denerim... or was it? Maybe Loghain's men set that fire. Or maybe it was Darkspawn. Darkspawn who were being controlled by the Architect!!!
Yes that's right, the Architect was in on this plan as well. He sent his own Darkspawn to Denerim to burn Goldanna's house down with her and her children inside it! But why would the Architect cooperate with this? Well, there was someone who was sent to hunt down and kill the Architect. Someone sent by the Grey Wardens after the events of The Calling. An elven female... by the name of...
FIONA!!!! Oh yes! I just brought this thing full circle! Fiona found the Architect and made a deal with him. In exchange for Fiona sparing his life, the Architect would use the attack on Denerim to kill Goldanna and her five children in a house fire after she completed her mission. The Architect agreed. And what is the Architect's element? Fire. Irrefutable proof if I've ever seen it.
And as Darkspawn Chronicles shows us, Goldanna stays in Denerim until her mission is complete. See, without the Warden there to help him, Alistair never gets up the courage to meet Goldanna. So she stays there, waiting to fulfill her mission.
Loghain also planned to have Howe killed, since he was in on the plan as well. He did this by having Howe provoke a Warden from any Origin by sending Zevran after them. He also allowed Howe to abduct Anora to lure the Warden to him.
Loghain also planned to have Fiona killed. She's a renegade Warden, basically. She's an apostate. She Orlesian. She's an elf. And she's a war leader now. Who is set to kill her? A human Ferelden Grey Warden Templar by the name of Alistair!!! Oooh that's right! Killed by her own son! The ultimate irony. In the cover story Alistair kills his mother unwittingly. In the real story he kills her unwittingly.
See? Everyone with close involvement with the plan dies. That's how true conspiracies work!
- While you are completely barking mad, this is mostly plausible. Good theory. :) Abélath (talk) 14:17, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
~Roughly 20 years ago~
1. Fiona gives an infant Alistair to Maric with the request that he be kept out of the king situation.
2. Maric gives Alistair to Eamon someone he trust.
3. Eamon makes up the lie that Alistair was the son of a serving maid who died giving birth to him.
4. Loghain either doesn't know or doesn't tell out of respect for the integrity of the throne, Maric, Rowan, or all three.
5. Duncan ages roughly 20 years and begins nearing his calling. There is no exact year in which every Warden goes through their calling, just an estimate.
6. Alistair has grown up believing he is the serving maid's son, goldanna's brother, and Maric's bastard.
7. The amulet could of been the maid's, Eamon's, Maric's, or Fiona's. Or maybe just a lie.
Thats pretty much all that matters.
- Right. The vast majority of the "but what about X?" details can be explained fairly easily by saying that someone was either wrong, lying, or lied to, or some combination of the three. It doesn't need a vast conspiracy. Just a willingness to accept that when a character says something in-universe, they are capable of being wrong or deceptive. Rcrantz (talk) 05:29, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
- The problem is that there isn't only one X, there are at least 6 of them, all of those involved. Loghain, Alistair, Eamon, Duncan, Rowan, Goldanna, Marric himself thinks Alistair's mother is dead. When all characters are lying or are lied to, then you know there is incoherence and inconsistence. --Damx (talk) 08:30, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
There's some info that Alistair will appear in DAI. Who's to say Fiona won't show up either to give answers?--Mike Gilbert 21:08, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
- She might show up, but then again the game starts with an explosion that happens at a peace talk between the heads of the mage and chantry sides of the war, of which Fiona is definitely a part of the mage side, and everyone but the Inquisitor dies. So... 220.127.116.11 (talk) 21:32, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
That's not entirely accurate DamX.
Maric: Someone asked the writers on BSN about Maric's comment at the end of "Until We Sleep" and the response was "Well after being imprisoned by Aurelian Titus for X years, with no contact with the outside world, how accurate do you think Maric's information would be?" Its worth noting he also says Loghain is dead even though its entirely possible for Loghain to be alive at that point.
Rowan: Rowan was dead before Maric met Fiona so I don't know why anyone is under the impression she was lying about anything. She never had a chance to voice her opinion.
Duncan: Duncan furthered the deception that Alistair's mother was a human woman who died as per Fiona's wishes at the end of the Calling.
Eamon: We can't even be sure if Eamon actually was lying. For all we know the amulet in question could have been Fiona's.
Goldanna: She's not really Alistair's sister, she was deceived just like everyone else as Maric & Fiona intended.
- Regarding "how accurate Maric can be". Well, he knew Cailan was dead, obviously. Loghain in bioware canon is dead, since Alistair is king (it can be hardened, but I don't think he is). That's a list of dead people, who are in the afterlife. Why does he think Alistais mother is dead? Loghain, he can think he is dead, but why Fiona? He knows she is free from the taint. Maybe Fiona made him think she was dead (for some reason), but that would make her an other liar to add to the list.
I put Rowan in the list, because both Alistair and Loghain say she was alive when Alistair was born. She should not be in the list, but she is part of the inconsistence too. They hide Alistair to protect her status as queen. Eamon and Duncan are liars, simply because if they aren't, Alistair wouldn't think he is son of a servant. Eamon could actually think Alistair to be son of a servant, but that would simply turn him in a "lied to" character. Goldanna is a liar or a lied to. So the list of people involved is: Marric (could lie to Eamon, could be lied to from Fiona), Fiona (could be liar), Loghain (being lied to), Eamon (is liar or lied to), Duncan (liar), Goldanna (liar or lied to), and Alistair (lied to). Marric and Fiona could be removed from the list, but the others stay there. 5 on 7 characters are living a lie, and the remaing two aren't completely out of it. And if only one of those characters is actually telling the truth, then all the Alistair being son of Fiona thing falls apart. It's lame isn't it.--Damx (talk) 07:33, July 14, 2014 (UTC)
I don't understand. You think Maric had some sort of super natural connection to the after life to know when people he was close to died? As opposed to the more rational explanation that he was just acting on whatever scraps of information he got from Aurelian Titus?
As for the rest (as best I can gleam from it), Duncan obviously furthered the deception because he, Maric & Fiona agreed to said deception. Also I am 99% sure Alistair does not state at any point that Rowan was alive when he was born.
I don't think Loghain does either. The closest he gets is if he is conscripted and asked about Maric recognizing Alistair as his son. Loghain's exact wording is "It would have made a concubine out of Rowan after all". The out of universe explanation is of course that they perhaps changed their mind about Alistair's origin later. The in universe one is that Maric lied to Loghain about Alistair's age to throw Loghain off of who Alistair's real mother is. Loghain's "closeness" to Rowan could also be an explanation, given his fondness for her, Loghain would have made every effort to ensure nothing was done to diminish her reputation.
I don't think the situation is quite as flimsy as all that either. The only people who we know are fully aware of the reality are Maric, Fiona and Duncan. Two of whom die and the remaining one isn't likely to talk. It just seems odd to get so upset that a conspiracy of which so few people knew the truth actually worked at concealing the fact it set out to cover up.
<Aside> As for Loghain being dead in the default choice set they used for the comics, I don't see how that is pertinent to the discussion. But just as an aside, Alistair neither confirms nor denies that Loghain is dead (they phrased the dialogue so its as ambiguous as possible for all outcomes so its as applicable to as many player's canon's as possible). As for Fiona, do you think that just maybe, Maric probably assumes she is dead because he was locked in that cell for over a decade? He had no way of knowing what the outcome of Fiona's interaction with the Architect was or if she had died from unrelated causes after that. Since Alistair is obviously still under the impression his mother was Human, he has no reason to correct Maric. <Aside Ends> -18.104.22.168 (talk) 08:39, July 14, 2014 (UTC)
Hey doesn't DA:I begin with the death of the leaders of both the chantry and the Mage rebellion. So it is possible that Fiona (and Rhys) die before the game really begins. If she does then the truth behind Alistair's birth may never be fully explained and won't really matter. If she does not die she may very well have a great explanation for it all. So maybe we wait for a few months and see what will happen and if Bioware balls it up you can return to your heated debate. I just don't think so much effort and frustration now is worth it when soon it could all be revealed.--I am Thorge (talk) 01:22, July 15, 2014 (UTC)