Forum:Alistair getting dark?

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In DA:Silent Grove Alistair killed Yavana after she had saved his life. She wanted him to use his blood in her plan, he rejected this, because he saw it evil or maybe because Yavana was another Morrigan? He starts to resemble Lelouch from Code Geass in case of father-son relationship. Lelouch killed his father and rejected his evil plan of changing the world because he abandoned him. Alistair can also hate Maric for abandoning him and even more for willing getting part in Flemeth's plan of changing the world. I just think Ali is slowly becoming a bad guy.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.8.104.218 (talk)

I do think it would be really interesting if things went that way with Alistair. Fallen heroes certainly do make the best baddies, but I'm not sure if that's how it's going to roll. Not having read The Silent Grove I'm not sure but I think Alistair may have had more reasons for killing this Yavana than just the fact he didn't like her plan. Also take into account that Alistair's future appearances in Dragon Age may just be cameos. After all, many people had Alistair killed in their playthrough or become a wondering drunkard and surely Bioware wouldn't go ahead and just ignore player's choices regarding certain characters... actually wait, scratch that last part. (DDragonfly1990 (talk) 23:11, June 21, 2012 (UTC))

I read the Silent Grove, and to me it seemed that Alistair was just really sick and tired of being used by Witches of the Wilds. So instead of going "rawr, you saved my life but I'll jam this blade into your gut for the lulz", it was more along the lines of "I'm sick and tired of you b!tches using me. First your mother sets me on this impossible mission, then your sister tries to get a baby off of me, and now you are literally howling for my blood. I've had enough. To the hells with you!". I won't call that evil, just plain tired of being used. - 23:24, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

Wait, they're related? I thought she was just some another witch of the wilds. Now this just raises some questions like who did Flemeth mated with if she's really the genetic mother of Yavanna, is it just some nobody? And is Yavanna genetically related to Morrigan? And are the parents of those two (if it's not Flemeth) important? You know they both have black hair. If the old hug can survive the blade of my warden it is possible that Yavana somehow survived.

And yeah about the topic, I agree with what Gab said. --   Asteral9 | Talk  18:49, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Flemeth is definitely Yavana's mother, so yes, she's Morrigan's half-sister (possibly even full sister). Also, Yavana's comments in the Silent Grove made me think again about Morrigan's request to kill Flemeth becasue of the body-snatching ritual. Yavana speaks as though the ritual has already been carried out on her, and calls it a "gift". She also says that Morrigan is foolish, misguided and deluded, and calls her a "child", so despite her appearance I'd say that Yavana's quite a bit older than Morrigan, who was 30 in Origins if my memory serves me correctly. Not that I'd trust what Yavana says, especially if she is being controlled by Flemeth, but still, food for thought King Cousland | Talk   00:28, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

I wonder if they would actually incorporate Yavanna in Dragon Age 3. All of this would make an interesting and fascinating story. I could actually see the Mages vs Templars and Qunaris with Flemith behind the scenes hiding and manipulating everyone. --   Asteral9 | Talk  04:35, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

Seconded EzzyD (talk) 23:48, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

Thirded.And Dragonfly1990 speaks the truth. But mind you all the prebuilt histories in DA2 were always that Alistair lived either a King, Warden or Drunk. Almost as if they really hope most chose options to let him live. Also i think Ali may just be getting more darker because 1) wardens have to make tough desiscions not always good choices. 2) Anora may be driving him insane. 3) Being King is driving him mad. 4) He's sick of being the good guy? Phoenix96 (talk) 10:46, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

I think he's sick of being the "good guy" who everyone takes advantage of to further their own goals. Not even Alistair's dad cared much for him. Even if all that other stuff didn't apply, I think he'd still have killed Yavana just for being a witch with an evil plan, and he being the Templar had a bit of a responsibility to snuff her out. :P EzzyD (talk) 15:07, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

This is why I'd never put Alistair to the throne in the Origins because he's judgement is always clouded by his emotions. He's already bias towards the mages. Not to mention that his not really the intellectual type of person. --   Asteral9 | Talk  18:52, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

I have a feeling Alistair's actually wiser than he lets on. A lot of his insults struck home ("This is when we find out that you don't have any friends" clearly struck home, for instance). But Yavana's plan wasn't exactly a good one to begin with... dragons, all in all, seem to be rather detrimental in Thedas, and waking them up isn't really a good idea. Especially if you have to bleed for it to wake them up, and then possibly bleed again to kill them. He doesn't really have any reason to trust the Witches, and he has even less reason to wake the dragons up.- 04:50, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe that she would brought an army that she can't control. Let's not forget that for some reason Flemith could transform herself into a dragon and if she's the mother of Yavana, then maybe it is also possible that they could communicate with dragons. The interesting thing is that for some reason Theirin blood could wake dragons up and there is a possibility that even they could also control it, meaning maybe Alistair could control it.

Overall the last thing that I want to say is that I think that Alistair backstab Yavana too early and that he should have waited on the benefits of having Yavana with him. Yes, we all know that she can't be trusted but really he just killed her without knowing anything on what she is planning - which is in my opinion really dumb. Things like this looks very trivial in the outside but I have a feeling that it would bite him back in his journey later. Not to mention that there are some parallels on what happened to Yavan and also to Flemith on Origins. --   Asteral9 | Talk  07:43, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think Yavana would have cared if thirty dragons descended upon Thedas and decided to trample it to bits. We do have Hawke and the Warden killing off a few, but both High Dragons did/can do considerable harm. Witches of the Wilds are all in all, only looking out for whatever interests them, and Alistair does have an entire country to think about. - 12:02, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

Not exactly what I meant. Although I agree with you that she might not care about Thedas but this isn't really about that. The point is that Alistair could have uncover what exactly is she planning and if it is connected to her mother — Flemeth and so on and so forth. Like I said before he back stabbed her too early. --   Asteral9 | Talk  16:23, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

A templar who can actually identify a mage on sight? I guess Alistair wasn't in Kirkwall long enough to lose that particular talent.

24.76.93.205 (talk) 17:22, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, so a mysterious, morally ambiguous maleficar who has a connection to Morrigan, who Alistair distrusts, and Flemeth, who everyone in their right mind distrusts, is telling Alistair to cut himself open so she can gain access (and possibly control) to the queen of all dragons, and you expect him to actually do it? What's more, you expect him to let an obviously powerful and resourceful mage hound him for his blood, which is the key? It's surprising how quickly he decided to kill her, true, but it's pretty much the exact choice I would have expected from him. He probably would have tried the same thing with Flemeth if she'd been upfront about why she was sending Morrigan with them. Remember, "Witch of the Wilds" isn't some quaint title barbarians give to female mages who like to live in swamps, they're very powerful and malevolent mages with mysterious powers and aims who kill people. Remember when Morrigan told Alistair about the many Chasind men Flemeth seduced and then murdered for kicks? I think Alistair does. --UrLeingod (talk) 00:39, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

1. Flemeth did not seduce and murder chasind men for kicks, it was to breed with them. Where do you think Yevana came from? And, Morrigan? I believe Flemeth's magic allows her to control her offsprings growth but she still needs a baby to start with and that is why she needed to breed with the men. Hence, why Yavana and Morrigan have similar traits and are both female, etc.

2. Alistair hated Morrigan("Besides the fact that she is a complete and utter bitch, no, I don't like her at all."-DA:O) and wants nothing to do with Mages, especially more like Morrigan and Flemeth. Also, Blood Magic? really? Do you really see Alistair being OK with Blood Magic of any kind?

3. Final point... Alistair is sick and tired of everyone using him and telling him what he should and shouldn't do. He is his own man now, he wants to make his own choices not be pressured into them again and again by more of Flemeth's lackeys.

Mage Captal (talk) 22:54, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

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I have not read Silent Grove. I would not say he is getting Darker, but rather taking leadership as king.In Origins he always went along with orders even if he did not agree with them. This is his character development to someone that will follow no longer.Also he had no friends to persuade him not to kill her. If this was actually a game and our Warden was there we would have had the option to persuade him to let her live, kill her, or turn her tranquil. Now that would put fear into the hearts of Mage's. Turning a Witch of the Wilds into a tranquil. --Verkone (talk) 05:49, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

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I dont think Alistair is getting dark per say... I think he's getting pissed that everyone is expecting him to fall in line with these grand ol' schemes they have. A hardenedAlistair even says he wants to do more for HIM, and not everyone else. --The Ranger Chei. 16:34, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

Yep i think he is pissed off at everyone trying to use him, espescially witches of the wild.
Oh and Astrael9, Alistair as King isn't biast to mages. He actually gets along with Wynne (when she isn't teasing him about the female warden) and in DA2 Meredith is very close to ripping out his thoart as he's been helping mages outside the circle. His templar training only ever shows with morrigan, jowan, that bloodmage dude in the warden's keep DLC. People who , in my opinion, deserved to be punished.Phoenix96 (talk) 15:03, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

With what I have gleaned of the comic, to me, Alistair is not precisely getting darker, but the situations he finds himself in are, and he is responding to them in a way that bespeaks, well, emotional pain and mistrust, even buried rage. It's not explicitly stated but to me, it is implied in some things Alistair says that he may have done the Dark Ritual. If so, he is embittered, no doubt, toward the Witches of the Wilds. Yavana seeks to raise dragons using his blood. Last time the Witches of the Wilds wanted his seed for a demon baby. Can Alistair really be expected to agree to this plan? Does raising dragons seem like a good idea based on what he has seen of dragons? A huge dragon almost destroyed his homeland. And based on what he has experienced of the Witches' ruthlessness, cruelty, and cunning, is he to be expected to believe these dragons will be used for good?

I think Alistair is making decisions in TSG based on suspicion and trauma from his past experiences. Whether these decisions are good or not, who can say yet, but I don't think his actions can be seen as irresponsible or unreasonable. Dark, sure, darker than his nature usually is, but not outrageous based on what he may have experienced. I think his reactions are natural based on what he knows of the situation, what little he has been told.

My canon Warden stabbed Morrigan in Witch Hunt out of a sense of betrayal and revenge and she would approve of this response to Yavana. Why should Yavana be trusted? What has she done to earn it? Has a Witch of the Wilds ever been forthright or honest enough about their intentions to be trusted at all, with anything, much less blood that could raise a mother dragon? LadyAeducan (talk) 17:00, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Haha... Alistair getting dark, I wish. No way, he just hates evil swooping is bad witch girls. 203.45.127.20 (talk) 02:01, June 26, 2012 (UTC)Darkside

Alistair attacked Aurelian Titus in public and used his templar powers to disable the magister's magic. Al became more badass and stopped being a nice guy. He already killed Yavana, I wouldn't be surprised if he'd like to kill Morrigan and Flemeth. Maybe Al looks for Maric for answers or maybe to ensure he's the king of Ferelden. I see Al is getting more and more badass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.8.104.218 (talk)

Alistair killed Yavana, because he didn't like her idea, now he gets in trouble with his old friend Sten to save the most amoral woman, who can know something baout his father. I think he's getting to far. What else evil has he to commit to realise his goal is pointless? 78.9.155.96

As far as Alistair's Templar training relevance, remember that he was still just a recruit when Duncan conscripted him. He was not yet made into a lyrium addict like the Templars all eventually become. Meaning he may be clearer headed but less powerful. Also he is still a Grey Warden, the taint gains more control and the song grows louder every day. At this point, he only has 20 years left at best before his Calling, when he will likely become a ghoul like Larius. Same goes for the Warden-Commander, Anders, Nathaniel, Oghren, Sigrun, Velanna and Carver/Bethany if they are still alive and became Wardens. Such is the fate of all Grey Wardens. --Vampire Damian (talk) 19:47, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

But Larius was a complete ghoul unlike Janeka and she was more corrupted by the Corypheus than him despite less advanced taint. It means corrupting substance isn't always needed to become a villain. Riordan was far more andvanced than Janeka and he's was a good guy, he admited the taint soon destroys him. Alistair became more ruthless and less sympathetic after 8 years of his rule, maybe royal power corrupts him, not the calling. 78.9.155.96

Larius was a ghoul who retained a remarkable amount of self control and was still able to resist Corypheus' commands even if he didn't have enough control to defy him outright. Janeka wasn't overcome with the taint like Larius, she was overcome by the will of Corypheus. He pulled her strings like a puppet and she obeyed, like Anders did briefly. The bit with Anders also seems to indicate it may have been the taint that corrupted Justice more than Anders' anger. Not sure if Carver/Bethany if they are Wardens and taken along on Legacy have any reaction to Corypheus since I've only played through it once so far with Circle mage Bethany. --Vampire Damian (talk) 20:43, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Carver and Bethany as gray wardens also hear Corypheus' calling, but only Anders loses control over his body.

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So Alistair killed Yavana. So Alistair is king of Ferelden, alive, sober, and not a Gray Warden. Remember, that the comics, according to our favourite writer, "exist in their own canon", and in Gaider's canon everything is possible:)

So personally, I don't think that Alistair is getting dark. Rather he is getting screwed up, sorry, artistically interpreted by Mr. Gaider. After all, he was the one who wrote the character in the first place, so now he can do anything with him. -Algol- (talk) 16:39, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Why does he seek his father? To ask him many questions about his origin, to make him return and replace him or maybe to kill him to ensuring his rule or for abandoning him? If the last is correct, then he became more ruthless, because he kills everyone, who stands in his way and now he's going to fight his old friend for a villanous woman simply because she knows something he wants to know. 78.9.4.233

In Silent Grove, Alistair is been king for ten years. That do change him, in the origins, it was a warden who did decisions. Now he has to make them and carry the consequences. If he is married to Anora, she sure has taught him how to make them.

Alistair is also a grey warden; he has seen shit that would make us white. Fighting against darkspawn, it will sure change anyone. 178.16.186.177

Correction, DA:SG happens in 9:38, meaning Alistair is a king for 7 years, the 5th Blight ended in 9:31. In Gaider's canon Alistair rules alone. 78.9.4.233

I wonder how brutal he'll be in DA:UWS and what will he see in Fade.78.8.15.219 (talk) 09:55, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

Fallen heroes were ąn always interesting topic.78.8.107.120 (talk) 17:34, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Would anyone be surprised if ALi became a villain?78.8.130.79 (talk) 11:10, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

Simply put, if something is "too evil" for Morrigan then it should be killed with Holy Templar Fire. That's how I read it. And Alistair isn't the same wide eyed boy that the Warden met in Ostagar. He's seen and done stuff and possibly experienced personal betrayals (I made him king but spared Loghain). People tend to grow from those experiences. A cynical Alistair is good IMO. - Soulofshezarr.

I'm probably in the minority here, but as an ardent Alistair fangirl, while he is undoubtedly one of the good guys and generally moral guys, I also thought that he wasn't quite as stait-laced as people tend to see him. Yes, he can be naive, and he wants to assume the best in people. He also doesn't make a peep if you decide to work for the Crows, whilst goody-two shoes Wynne does, nor does he turn on you if you decide to desecrate the Ashes. Good isn't always nice, and even he acknowledges that Wardens sometimes have to do bad things in the name of good- even if he doesn't like to think about it.

Add being king to that, and yes, he may be a bit darker and edgier, but I don't think he was ever [i]quite[/i] the boyscout people make him out to be. He shows willing to get his hands dirty, even if he doesn't want to, for the greater good. The only time in the entire game that he shirks what he thinks is necessary is when you drop a fifty tonne weight on his Duncan-sensitive berserk button. Landers Edge (talk) 03:16, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

Greater good is an excuse and favorite reasons of tyrants. There is no good or evil. Alistair got violent because power he has corrupted him, not the taint not the experience, but royal power. It made him arrogant enough to search alone fr his father and attack magister Titus on his party. I'm sure Alistair will kill Maric after he gets informations from him he wanted. He'll kill him so nobody could deny his authority and because he abandoned him. Then Ali could become interesting like Lelouch mentioned in the begining of the topic.156.17.71.249 (talk) 08:13, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

Uh, yeah, okay, it is a pretty convenient excuse for tyrants, but it's also not limited to tyrants or being a petty reason. And while Alistair isn't perfect, what about his personality is tyrannical?

Keeping in line with Alistair's personality, if he did kill Maric, it would be much more likely for him to off Maric for reasons involving the security of Ferelden or Thedas, not because of some long standing grudge against Maric. Landers Edge (talk) 17:06, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

Alistair killed Yavana without a 2nd thought after she saved his life. She offered him something he didn't like, but he could simply refuse and he stabbed her in stomach. Isn't it typical for tyrants? Killing ones no longer needed?78.8.132.240 (talk) 17:31, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

Alistair killed Yavana because he was sick to death of Witches of the Wilds and their devious, manipulative ways. Getting rid of her immediately ensures that she will not be around to cause mischief in the foreseeable future. --Darkly Tranquil (talk) 19:10, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

@Landers Edge - I pretty much foresee Alistair killing Maric, but not for any reason than to release him from the torture that Titus has subjected him too. Which admittedly, is for the greater good of about everyone involved I think.

As for Yavana, another ritual, more blood magic? I'd have offed her as well, I somewhat get the impression Alistair would most certainly kill Morrigan on the same pretext should their paths cross again, and every other daughter of Flemeth. It doesn't make him tyranical - if anything, it seems a sensible course of action instead of having a tonne of dragon flying around and destroying Thedas. --MichelleAnn85 (talk) 07:56, April 12, 2013 (UTC)

A fair point; a mercy kill wouldn't be out of character for him.

I also think people aren't realising that Alistair has seen a lot of pain and sorrow come from suspicious, blood related magics. It's not even his Templar training- the Ferelden circle was almost destroyed, the Kirkwall Circle WAS destroyed. He knows that Zathrian used some ancient blood magic to perpetuate a curse that went on for centuries. Regardless of whether it was the Ferelden or Orlesian Warden-Commander, he had to have heard about the Blackmarsh. He's seen so much insanity with old, blood related magic and the outcome can only be 'good'- and I use the term loosely- on one occasion, and that is if the murky God-Child ritual was used to save his life. And notably, he can refuse it in some circumstances, and it's generally easier to convince him if he loves the Warden- it's to save the life of someone he cherishes, not because he thinks its a great idea.

Alistair may be- for either personal, political, or some mix of the two reasons- pro-mage, but that doesn't make him blind to the reality that some magic, and its practitioners, are inherently dangerous. Landers Edge (talk) 03:07, April 13, 2013 (UTC)