Ok Maybe Morrigan mouthed off one to many time or what ever. There going at each other fight to the death. To keep it fair nothing the PC would not have picked had you know they already are both at max level when you meet them whatever.
Anyway who would win and why.
My coin on Al he trained to fight mages and all togeather Morrigan shape-shift is kinda worthless. I really belivie that it would be a short one sided battle.--IceStar100 (talk) 09:50, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
If Morrigan could make full use of Shapeshifting then she'd definitely win. Morrigan should be able to turn into stuff like birds and stay out of Alistair's range. She could then drag the battle out until Alistair is too tired to fight effectively and finish him off. In game the Shapeshifter specialization is broken with player stats not being boosted properly by the magic stat. In terms of how they can fight within the limits of the game (and it's glitches) Alistair would probably win. --Aedan Cousland (talk) 10:43, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
Dragon Age setting, mage vs warrior, and someone says warrior would win? Did we even play the same game? Dorquemada (talk) 11:45, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
This "warrior" is also a Templar. However, depending on the type of attacks learned or spells learned would depend on how this fight would go. Amm879 (talk) 12:11, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
Well, the templars can be as powerful as mages in skill, so it's plausible that they could win. Since Alistair is a templar(or was going to be..) i belive he could win against Morrigan. But, like Amm879 said, it would depend on the attacks learned.--Hyron (talk) 12:18, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
@Dorquemada Between a High level mage and a high level Warrior it could go either way, but Warriors win consistantly as long as they don't get trapped in one of those paralysis spells which they can deflect with High resistance, the add of a templar specialization and its pretty much in favor of the Warrior. Also I dont think this has a right awnser and sense I thought about the same scenario months ago I can picture this getting a lot of traffick. My pick Alistair.--Gdubs (talk) 13:46, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
A warrior perfectly boosted an specialised might have a shot of defeating a mage, but rogues are superior to both of them, if things get thigh they just melt into shadows, takes a few potions and then backstab their opponent when his or her spells or skill run out, it's a sure win.-rphb- (talk) 13:54, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
I never liked rogues. My DW warrior had a dex of 60 and strength was like 55 so rogues were just underpowered and not needed compared to him. given he also had a relative lock picking skill I didn't need any rogues in my party because he could open chests and when your health is boosted so high a bear trap just becomes an inconveinience rather than actually hurting you. DW warrior was definitely the best class in my opinion, you had the speed and precision of a rogue with the raw strength and damage of a fighter. Pity theyr'e not including DW warriors in DA2 (for exactly those reasons, they want the classes to stand out more and since a DW Warrior was better than a DW Rogue if you put your stats right they decided to just give warriors sword and board and 2 hander). So yeah I gotta disagree there. I was DPS and at the end of Witch Hunt (I did all expansions and DLC) I had 2214 kills. The majority of the game was just me (DPS) Morrigan (Caster) and Sten (Tank). On topic- Alistair would win. The shapeshifter was a poor specilisation plus alistair is a templar.--DanteCousland (talk) 14:05, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure an apostate that hasn't been shaped by the circle would take care of a single templar quite easily. Just look at how Jowan's escape unfolded. That was one blood mage. Yes, I know Morrigan isn't a blood mage, but I'm sure she would have similarly powerful magic compared to your standard circle mage. Circle mages are trained in ways that they are left susceptible to a templar. As far as the rogue being superior, well I love my rogues, but I disagree. In the scope of this thread I would think we're in a "cage match" type of situation, where the stealth abilities would be useless. If you disagree with that, I would point you toward the fact that Morrigan stalked the entire party through the Kocari Wilds without being seen, so she is equally adept at the element of surprise. Besides, if you take the element of surprise into account, this entire thread would be meaningless. It would come down to whichever character was tactful enough to catch the other while they slept. If we're basing this on sheer offensive and defensive capabilities, I think Morrigan would win quite handily. LVTDUDE (talk) 14:16, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
- Also note: the question of whether Morrigan is a Blood Mage is actually just another part of the "it depends on their skills" thing. My Morrigan usually was a Blood Mage.--DarkAger (talk) 14:41, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
As many people said, it would depend somewhat on their respective skills. My sword-and-shield Templar Warden (basically an Alistair analog) could trample right over a mage if he got close enough, shield-bashing them and whatnot to break their concentration and then hacking them to death. Even then, though, they would invariably get off at least a couple of spells before I took them down, which could be a major problem for me if those spells were things like Crushing Prison and Flying Swarm.
So I say that Morrigan would win if her spells were any good, for the same reason that Morrigan always completely destroyed Loghain if I sent her in to duel him. Cone of cold. Sleep spell, then terror for the Nightmare combo. Crushing prison while he's still standing there trembling like a big wuss. Dead Loghain. He would never even get close enough for a single attack. It would go pretty much the same way with Alistair, Templar abilities notwithstanding, especially since (contrary to what many people have said above) the Templar abilities are not nearly as useful as the in-game lore makes them out to be.--DarkAger (talk) 14:28, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
- That made me laugh a bit. Bravo! Loghain is a big wuss. LVTDUDE (talk) 14:30, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
My pick is Alistair. He is a templar like so many have brought up and a DAMN GREY WARDEN!(Cheers from all the screaming girl fans). If Alistair can aid in slaying the Archdemon, he can defeat an apostate mage. Now what I wanna see is Morrgan and Leliana fight. With a little help, she could just have Alistair cleanse the area, the PC could be a ref. Wynne's magic needs to be cleanse too cuz she'll try and break up the fight with one of her spells. Hell, maybe not cuz she doesn't really like Morrigan either. Anyway, once it's all set, Leliana'll say in her cute accent, "What were all those awwwful things you were saying about everyone"? Say them again now that we are in the ring togetha". Morrigan will try and say " Tis a curious thing BARD that you think---- (wham). Morrigan goes does in a flurry of punches and stealth attacks!!RhiannonCousland (talk) 14:48, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
- Before this thread devolves into actual insanity, may I suggest that people back up their choice with arguments with something other than wishful thinking and daydreams? I mean, I could just as easily say, "Alistair would be all 'Derp derp I'm a whiney dumbass, hey random lady would you like a rose-- OH MAKER PLEASE MORRIGAN STOP! YOUR BEAR-FORM IS TEARING OUT MY ENTRAILS AND TOSSING THEM AROUND THE CAMP LIKE CONFETTI! Yeearrrgh..." But what, exactly, would be the point of that?
- Oh, who am I kidding, this is absolutely where this thread is headed. I blame YOU, IceStar100! *shakes fist* Yes, the OP has failed us by not specifying whether we were to debate on the grounds of game mechanics, or game lore, or complete nonsense, as above.--DarkAger (talk) 15:03, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
Whatever!! Alistair is the living end and if he CLEANSES THE AREA, Morrigan would be getting the crap kicked out of her! Not ripping out those precious entrails!! Wait, I have to be sure; is that last comment directed toward me? RhiannonCousland (talk) 15:09, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
- All Cleanse the Area does is dispel currently active spells. All that would do is turn Morrigan back into human form, at which point she can hit him with a Cone of Cold and so on. As to that last comment, yes, it was directed at your Morrigan/Leliana scenario. It was also directed at my own Alistair/rose/bear thingie. Scenarios that boil down to "Character X would win because I love character X, and character Y would lose because I hate character Y" are not sensible arguments. They are nonsense arguments.
- You said "If Alistair can aid in slaying the Archdemon, he can defeat an apostate mage." I could just as easily come back with "If Morrigan can aid in slaying the Archdemon, she can defeat a former Templar/Grey Warden." Since neither of our arguments are based on anything but personal preference, neither of us can "win" the debate, and both of us can only lose as we descend ever further into gibbering fan-insanity. In contrast, at least there's some vague semblance of interior logic in our parallel argument on the usefulness of Cleanse the Area vs. Bear Form. So I was suggesting that we stick with the latter kind of debate rather than the former.--DarkAger (talk) 15:48, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
Alistair. Alistair is always in my party because he's a great tank for my rogue and he's a templar. Without him, the mages rape me. Plus, I think Shapeshfter is so useless... (and one of my mages is Shapeshifter), and I always have Wynne in my party as well because of her healing skills, so I don't need another mage running here and there while Alistair is trying to remove the foes from their arses. Another reason I don't like to have Morrigan in my party, is because her approval falls a lot, since most of my Wardens are good so the witch is always with low approval. --Rocketai (talk) 15:19, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
- Shapeshifter is pretty useless, but I still always take all the Shapeshifter spells for Morrigan, just for the sake of RP. And she can still kick all kinds of ass with her other spells. Just because she has Shapeshifter spells, doesn't mean that that's all she has. It goes back to "it depends on their skills." As for the "Morrigan disapproves of me," that really has nothing to do with who would win in a fight, and so I'm not sure what... oh why am I even bothering. Let go, DarkAger! It is time to let go.--DarkAger (talk) 15:59, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
- That I know, I'm not saying that Morrigan is 100% useless, I also said that I don't need another mage in the party because all I need is a tank, a damage-dealer, a healer and a rogue. Wynne already comes with the healer specialization, Alistair is the tank and a templar, Sten/Oghren makes good damage-dealer and my Warden as the archer/rogue. Yeah, I'm starting saying about my party... Pff... I totally ignored the main subject. Well, Alistair no doubt since he's a templar. Only use a Holy Smite and poof. -- Rocketai (talk) 16:33, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
- But Holy Smite sucks! It's no sure-fire mage killer. And now Morrigan uses Blood Wound on you! Ha ha, let's turn this into a role-play and go through the entire fight turn by turn to settle the question once and for all! (Actually, no. Let's not and say we did.)--DarkAger (talk) 16:44, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
- also wildly off topic* Now, wait, let me get this straight. Are you saying that, for you, this spell does a good amount of damage? That you are reliably able to stun enemy mages with it? Because for me it would do a moderate amount of physical damage and never trigger the alleged spirit damage, and never, ever stun the target. Huh, maybe it was just that my Templar Warden didn't have enough points put into Willpower or something.--DarkAger (talk) 20:03, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
- Wait! I didn't say that the spell did good damage! I said that it saved the arses of my party a lot of times! As you may know, the Holy Smite drains the mage's mana and it deals spirit damage and also makes the mage stunned and the other foes around it! So it saves a lot of butt, 'cause while the mage is stunned, I throw Alistair there and he rapes the mage. At least, for me, it's pretty useful. -- Rocketai (talk) 20:58, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
- I don't suppose you could STOP throwing around the word "rape" so lightly and thereby trivializing it's actual meaning, could you?
- Wait! I didn't say that the spell did good damage! I said that it saved the arses of my party a lot of times! As you may know, the Holy Smite drains the mage's mana and it deals spirit damage and also makes the mage stunned and the other foes around it! So it saves a lot of butt, 'cause while the mage is stunned, I throw Alistair there and he rapes the mage. At least, for me, it's pretty useful. -- Rocketai (talk) 20:58, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
@DarkAger. I was talking about the question at hand when I started my damn post. This is a forum about a videogame which is supposed to be fun. It is not a political discussion. I was having fun. I think that is pretty clear. I am very aware of what Alistair's Templar abilities do. I don't need you to go over that. The purpose of these discussion are to discuss facts about the game and your opinions and that is what I did. With all due respect you aren't one of the mediators of the site anyway so I think you need to slow down on telling me to stick to anything. Topics like this get off track all the time. If you think what I say is useless comment on someone else's post. Since I am really getting off the subject of the discussion now, excuse me to everyone else. I just can't stand it when the die hard snarkies who comment on these discussions treat this like a serious political discussion. Lighten up.RhiannonCousland (talk) 18:55, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
- You're right, I definitely should lighten up. My bad. If I may say it was not my intention to slam or insult you personally, but to plea for a discussion involving more game facts and less pure opinion such as "X would win because I like X." Of course I said it in a very sarcastic way, as I am in the unfortunate habit of doing, and so I must sincerely apologize for hurting your feelings. Clearly I need to work on being more diplomatic.--DarkAger (talk) 19:58, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
I understand your plea for more factual discussions. I see you have made one up( big essay about mages and templars). My feelings are not hurt. All is well.RhiannonCousland (talk) 20:06, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
Underestimate Morrigan at your own risk. She would prevail because she is ruthless. She would feign defeat and then stab the gullible Allistar right through the heart..Game mechanic wise a mage simply has too many advantages over a warrior. I do not think being a Templar could overcome this inbalance. Shapeshifting needs to be corrected though, as of now it is next to worthless.Limduul (talk) 20:17, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
You guys are forgetting the last templar talent, which drains mana. So, if Alistair knew that talent then Morrigin would be screwed.--Yash7 (talk) 20:35, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
Also the mage takes damage proportional to the mana lost.--Yash7 (talk) 20:36, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
Man this took off. I wanted game macnices but this is more fun.--IceStar100 (talk) 22:57, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
Morrigan will win, She could deal with an Eluvian by herself and giving birth, and Alastair had to be helped to be put on the throne and hardened so he wouldn't complain for getting such a powerful job not to mention he didn't took this templar's vows. But in a fight, First the crushing prison or paralyze before he attacks in cleansing the area, freeze him, then electrocute him and then a stone fist if he still moves then paralize him and while on the floor use the walking bomb and boom!!! I think Morrigan have high possibilities to beat Alastair and that was just in human form, not mentioning her other shapes :) . --Anthonior (talk) 23:27, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
First, I adore my sneaky witch-thief and my suspicious, dim-witted templar equally. They are both so much fun!
That said, I will respond as objectively as I can. With regard to my actual experience in-game, I would say that Alistair is more likely to win. Not that Morrigan, Wynne, or my Mage Warden are ineffective against possessed and burning templars in the Broken Circle quests, but given Alistair's effectiveness against any magic-using enemies at all. He destroys Hurlock and Genlock Emissaries. When hunting down the blood mages in that deserted building in Denerim, Alistair cuts down most of them without a scratch, the only exception being the archers and blood mage behind the barricade that I can never seem to target until the enemies are dead. Even then, if we move to flank them, it is all over with. If I take Sten with me into that den of unholy magic (without giving him the Templar specialization, that is), he gets his ass handed to him. I have to revive him at least twice! Must have been Emissaries that defeated him previously and lost him his precious Asala. There must be an inherent, unspecified magic resistance that being a Templar grants. It also must be superior to the natural magic resistance of dwarven characters, as my dwarven Rogue fared nearly as poorly as Sten against the blood mages, and she had nearly equivalent physical and mental resistance to that of Alistair at the time. My human Templar Warden, like Alistair, was barely touched before all the blood mages lay dead. Given Alistair's track record in-game, I don't think Morrigan could stand against him if she had no way to flee or any place to hide. If she could keep her distance, however, Alistair would be toast, or frozen solid, since her initial spells are cold-based. In a cage match, Alistair would mop the floor with Morrigan. He might be slightly on fire or slightly frozen at the end, but no less alive. If Alistair had been sent to hunt Morrigan down in the wilds, he would never be heard from again, Flemeth notwithstanding. Conditions are everything in this kind of fight. I also don't think we can rely very much on game lore as a measure of Templar abilities over actual in-game combat, as the report of a Templar in the codex said a single Abomination killed 70 people, including many templars, before it was finally killed, yet Alistair can vanquish a group of three Abominations single-handedly in about ten seconds. Much is made of the power of both Templar and Mage in the story of the game, but in practice, the abilities are not quite as impressive.
About Holy Smite: it does a number on Abominations and mages alike. The knockdown effect seems to always work, and it does decent damage in the hands of a Templar Warden, though it is not the insta-kill its description seems to suggest. Although if Alistair's tactics are set for him to target the first magic-user with Holy Smite, they rarely survive. Maybe the game is weighted to make him a more effective Templar regardless of statistics? However, even in Alistair's hands, Holy Smite is nowhere near as effective against enemy spellcasters as a mage's Mana Clash. Maybe Holy Smite uses the Magic attribute to determine its damage for a Templar Warden and this is why? I don't know. I only know that in the Broken Circle, my Mage Warden can kill almost everything before Alistair can close the distance and get in a single hit. That is, until we encounter the possessed templars. Then my mage gets hit with one of their Holy Smites and if I'm not dead right there, without help, I soon will be. Even so, Holy Smite does not always work, even on me.
About Shapeshifting: it's a fun toy, with a cool effect, but ultimately far inferior to most other spells in a mage's repertoire. It allows a mage to get more physical, which can be effective against a templar at close range, but can it outdo the damage-dealing capabilities of a warrior? Rarely, if at all.
About Crushing Prison: I love this spell, but it doesn't always work, even on non-boss enemies. Some enemies get out of it relatively quickly, and when it is cast on my Warden, regardless of class, unless my health is already low, it is not a killer. In most cases, I get out of it before the mage can hit me with more than one additional spell. Also, I have only seen Alistair get hit with this spell twice. Both times he was out fairly quickly and lost less than half of his health. I just don't think there is enough time for Morrigan to finish him off before he could get in a second hit, and honestly, that's all it would take.
In summary, Alistair could definitely kill Morrigan one-on-one. Morrigan might be able to kill Alistair one-on-one, if she got very lucky and Alistair forgot how to use a sword for a second. Niquorebel Cousland (talk) 00:32, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
- For me Crushing Prison never failed, either on enemies or on my Warden. Not that I'm saying it killed me every time, but then the AI for spellcasting enemies is not the best, so they don't always pile on when they really should. I'd just have Morrigan or Wynne heal me while my Warden was still being crushed. I still freaking hated those darkspawn emissaries. If they did manage to follow up Crushing Prison with a Curse of Mortality, next thing I knew it would be a Stinging Swarm spell, and then my Warden (or whoever) would be dead before I could do much of anything. I say Alistair would go down fast, in pretty much the same way. But as you say, it depends on conditions... as well as how the characters are armed and equipped, and what skills they have.
- As for the possessed Templars all I know was that my Elf Mage would either snap freeze them all with a well-aimed Cone of Cold, lock down the whole room with Blood Wound, or be mobbed by four or five of them and then quickly pummeled to death. Hey, I never said Templars were ineffective when they attack in groups! Whatever the case, I can't remember Holy Smite ever being a factor in my game. I do remember being disappointed upon finally getting Holy Smite for my one Templar-Warden, and then finding out that (in my hands) it did only moderate physical damage, would never seem to stun the enemy, and had a long re-charge time besides.
- Oh, and Abominations? Those things are just as overrated in game lore as the Templars are. Only the upper echelon demons ones like Pride demons (Uldred), Desire Demons (Conner) and Sloth Demons (Niall/Sloth Abomination) are actually really dangerous. The common ones can't even use magic, except to blow up when they die. I'm guessing that the really powerful, unique abominations like Uldred and Conner have caused so much carnage in their time that they've given all abominations a deadly reputation. After all, it's hard to see why everyone in Thedas would be so worried about Hunger or Rage Abominations, which are basically just big ugly mages who can't cast spells and don't do anything but run up and punch you in the face.--DarkAger (talk) 01:00, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
Who would win is simply a matter of who hits first. Morrigan could immobilize Alistair just as easily as he could nullify her powers. They both have the other's weakness. I know as a warrior I hated having a mage freeze me then blast me with every spell under the sun before I was free, and I'm not even going to discuss that stupid misdirection hex. And as a mage (my favorite unfortunately) it never failed that if I wasn't paying attention in the Circle Tower that one of those crazed templar would beat me down. So its all about who hits first. (Lore wise Alistair as he would be more defensible seeing as he doesn't trust Morrigan and game engine wise cuz in my experience Morrigan is a little trigger happy with her spells :P) --Xiorath (talk) 01:34, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
I say let them settle it in the bedroom, they may not like each other but I think they want each other.--Gdubs (talk) 01:58, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
- Ha ha ha ha. You read my mind Gdubs. I was thinking, they come to a draw and realize that it's better to make love not war but wait a minute! Didn't they already do that? Sort of? In reality, not knowing what their skills are and if they are completely leveled or not leveled makes this debate hard to answer. I think that mages, in general, are hard to kill if they keep casting spells at you and if Alistair can't even get two feet in front of Morrigan long enough to slay her, then it's hard for him to win granted he can dispel magic and he just needs to stun her long enough to stick a sword through her middle.--Fantasyeve87 03:02, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
Everyone does realize that all of this is hypothetical, right? They can be designed in so many ways. If Morrigan had Force Field, Crushing Prison, Cone of Cold, Misdirection Hex, and Death Hex, then she would win, obviously. However, you have to look at the fundamental argument (you can't think about it as if you were designing Morrigan to win the fight); a warrior against a mage, and the mage is a shapeshifter while the warrior is a templar (and a tank w/ high mental resistance), then Alistair would win. And you also have to consider that while mages have greater potential and can deal with large groups, they are not generally designed for one-on-one fights. Warriors and rogues are better in that field. Xiorath made a point when they said that "Morrigan could immobilize Alistair just as easily as he could nullify her powers." I guess my point is: the huge number of variables make this question impossible to answer, but from a fundamental standpoint Alistair would win. Sophirim (talk) 05:05, October 6, 2010 (UTC)
- I think many people came to this conclusion.--Fantasyeve87 14:43, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
So I think Morrigan would win, Death Cloud, Death Hex and Sleep, He's gone For. Also Blizzard. SHe is too strong for hime and she also has paralyze so he's gone for. @$pencer
- Yea.. Holy Smite. She's done for. It's pretty obvious that the one who manages to incapacitate the other first, wins. And it's also pretty obvious that everyone who says how one of them would win describes it as if they were playing. So it's all kinda moot, there's no clear winner. Prismvg (talk) 21:42, October 10, 2010 (UTC)