Forum:A theory on the Maker. Thoughts?

Forums: Index > Lore DiscussionA theory on the Maker. Thoughts?

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Pure hypothesis here, but imagine if the Maker was not actually a god but the greatest demonic threat to Thedas ever, the Primordial Demon of the Fade (Satan, basically) and the Old Gods were his servants in the physical world, his own seven headed dragon, and the Forgotten Ones were malevolent demons in thrall to it in the Fade. The only races old and powerful enough to contain the threat would have been the Dwarves and Elves, the Dwarves who were capable of magic at the time and the elves immortal and powerful. Maybe together they created the Black City to imprison it, as it's own personal Hell and imprisoned the Old Gods beneath the earth. The Primeval Thaig and it's corruption was the sort of shenanigans the Maker got up to, before the creation of the Veil when magic was abundant and everyone could use it. When the Maker was free it wandered the earth, and through it's powers and influence it corrupted the original and most powerful Dwarven thaig. Through their combined magic, ingenuity and blood magic it warped and corrupted the lyrium and created red lyrium and subsequently the red lyrium idol.

This prompted the war upon it and the corrupted dwarves by both the elves and other, uncorrupted dwarves and resulted in the utter destruction of that thaig and the creation of the Veil and the Black City and the loss of the elven gods. The Dwarves might even once have worshipped the elven gods too but were so ashamed of what their own corrupted kinsmen had done that they struck their religion and memory of the Primeval Thaig off their records even going so far as to sever their own collective connection to the Fade and reject worship of any gods that might tempt or corrupt them, trusting in their race and the earth.

The Elven deities were powerful, benevolent spirits of the Fade that worked with the elves and Dwarves to help bind the Maker, and his demonic lieutenants, the Forgotten Ones, in the spirit realm sacrificing themselves in the process and trapping them in the Black City.

All except Fen'Harel, who is still at work in the world as Flemeth and who seems to have played a pivotal part in trapping all of the gods and demons in the Black City. Flemeth certainly fits the part of a trickster god and lone wolf and seems to have a vested interest in keeping Blights contained and an innate hatred of the Chantry and it's worshippers. Working to keep the Maker and the other gods imprisoned in the Black City after she betrayed them seems very much in her interests and would explain her role in the games. Perhaps it was even her words in Maferath's ears that doomed Andraste.

HOWEVER along come ignorant humans, who stumble on the Old Gods and start worshipping them and they convince the humans to try to enter the Black City to free their master, which is made more appealing by the fact the Maker has somehow created the illusion that the Black City is Golden. This backfires dramatically as the Maker's own evil forever taints them, and the magical defenses of the Black City automatically casts them out leaving the Maker still trapped. This then drives them to seek out and free the Old Gods as vengeance for deceiving them and failing to release the Maker, yet also serves as a tool of vengeance on the mortal races. Upon the failure of the Old Gods to free the Maker, the cult of the Chantry was created by it because the prison of the Black City had been sufficiently weakened by the break-in by the Tevinter Magisters to allow the Maker to reach out into the mind of a certain Andraste, and plant the seeds of his worship again, with their belief slowly strengthening the Maker so that it might one day break free. This almighty tear in the Veil that has been seen in Inquisition is the Maker's latest attempt at freedom as the prison has weakened further. The lyrium idol that sparked all of the latest troubles was also his doing and a conduit for his influence into the mortal realm.

The original war against the Maker would have taken place in the year -4600 Ancient and -3100 Ancient, that is to say after contact was made between the elves andanddwarves but before the humans arrived in Thedas. 07:53, May 27, 2014 (UTC)

An interesting idea. While I personally don't believe the Maker - if he even exist - is evil, it would be an amazing plot-twist - it would utterly destroy human society, as they have carved their ways from the Maker's demands, the Chant of Light and the reverence of the Chantry. The nations would crumble, the humans would turn on each other, every power in Thedas would shift. The idea of the Black City as a prison is an extremely interesting idea, I haven't thought of it that way before. Created by the ancient elves and dwarves to contain a world-destroying danger, like the taint ... Exploring the Black City is something that's been on my top-5-wish-list since DA:O. But altogheter I think your idea is a little bit too fantastic. --SylvanLore (talk) 09:05, May 27, 2014 (UTC)

Gnosticism called. They want their cosmology back. 16:08, May 27, 2014 (UTC)

Wasn't familiar with Gnosticism, but to be frank, what's said has been implemented in many of literature, and DA has took a lot of real life influences, so it's perfectly possible they could adapt that. Could add a bit more than just that though XD 16:13, May 27, 2014 (UTC)

Well, given the amount of gods in fiction who turn out to be malevolent (or just plain jerks), it's possible Gnosticism has been an influence on many works of fantasy. Even the Chantry's belief that God exists but is absent may have been inspired in part by Gnosticism, where there IS a True God, but is so many levels beyond what we know as existence as to be somewhat removed from the universe as we understand it. Though a difference here is you don't seem to credit the Maker with the actual creation of Thedas. In Gnosticism, the physical world we know was created by an evil, angry, and violent entity called the Demiurge, an inferior and lesser aspect split off from the True God. So, if Bioware were influenced by Gnosticism and your theory of an evil Maker is correct, then there would be another Maker above the Maker. A True Maker, who funnily enough is quite clearly absent, just as the Chantry believes. 21:12, May 27, 2014 (UTC)

"Though a difference here is you don't seem to credit the Maker with the actual creation of Thedas." - I personally missed that out by chance, my bad. I'd thought you'd assume as much that he created Thedas, but for what reasons is beyond me. I always thought that he may have made Thedas, but he grew dissatisfied by the thedosians of old (elves, and dwarves). As well as this, totally unfamiliar with Gnosticism, think i'll do my research on that but in my theory i still think that the maker did make Thedas, or a collective of beings rather than one figure, is also possible. For all we know the Maker could be malevolent, as a result of his disillusionment with Thedas in general. For certain though, i don't think the theory is correct at all, i want others to contribute to it to make more sense of it, as it be. Yeah, in a lot of fiction god's may turn out to be malevolent but the common concept of the creator in most instances is a benevolent being. To be frank, you could make an argument to claim that the entire chantry belief is moot. 18:25, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

I have a theory that the Maker is a shapeshifting being worshipped by everyone but as someone else. It's based on dialogue between Merrill and Sebastian.

• Merrill: Our gods abandoned us long ago. They haven't answered our prayers since the fall of Arlathan. When we've proven that we're elves again, that we didn't lose everything, they'll come back to us.
• Sebastian: We say the same of the Maker. Perhaps they're only different names for the same divine force that created the world.

But he doesn't really want to be worshipped, but to start religious wars for own entertainment.78.10.102.54 (talk) 20:36, May 27, 2014 (UTC)

For own entertainment? Hmm well i'd like to think beyond that. I thought you may have been against the idea of a deity, and that it's the imagination of the few. It's certainly plausible. 20:44, May 27, 2014 (UTC)

Entertainment's a cheap motive, though, more fitting with trickster god than a creator. And surely if he wanted to start wars, outright manifestation would be a much more reliable provocation than absence. What Merrill and Sebastian are referring to is a type of commonality found in many real life religions and mythologies, when different cultures observe the same events and individuals. For instance, every culture on our world has a flood myth, probably inspired by the rising of the sea levels at the end of the ice age. Christianity, Judaism and Islam all have a common origin in the belief of Abraham, who shares similarities with the Hindu god Brahma. The interpretation changes with the observing culture, but the basics and themes remain intact. So the being (or beings) worshipped as the creator of Thedas don't need to shapeshift - that's just how cultures work; we make our gods look like us, not the other way around. 23:07, May 27, 2014 (UTC)

If I could post that Citizen Kane applauding gif I would. Well done Lazare. While I don't think you're 100% right, but you may be on the right track (and if you aren't you still get points for imagination). My main criticism about DA's fandom is that we ask too many questions and don't propose enough theories. I'll read this again in depth later and give you a break down on my thoughts. -- Soulofshezarr (talk) 20:54, May 27, 2014 (UTC)

I actually think the Old Gods are the Creators, and Fen'Harel is the Maker. And all of them are demons from the Fade, the weakest of whom is Fen'Harel. Another interesting piece of evidence supporting this is Corypheus saying "You offered the power of the gods themselves. But it was black, corrupt. Darkness ever since". I believe the "you" in this sentence is Fen'Harel/Maker. It/He approached the magisters and offered them a way to become as powerful as the gods they worshiped, but being a trickster, it tricked them into becoming darkspawn, and banishing the more powerful Old Gods underground, so that he'd be the only one left, so people could worship him only. And he achieved it through possessing Andraste. Henio0 (talk) 21:46, May 27, 2014 (UTC)

Corypheus was talking to Dumat. Or at least he thought he was talking to Dumat. Remember, when he first wakes up he's kind of out of it - he thinks Hawke & crew are dwarven slaves, because the last thing he remembers is being imprisoned in the Deep Roads. However, it could be that Corypheus was never actually contacted by Dumat to begin with, and it was Fen'Harel tricking him the whole time. But Corypheus clearly still believes in Dumat, as he calls for his aid in battle. Silver Warden (talk) 10:26, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

Jesus Lazare... your idea is so god damn crazy :D how did you even come to those conclusions? a theory should be based on assumptions or facts, right? There's just so much there where i think (because i don't know your reasoning) you just picked some random names and drew a conclusion relating it to the concept that the Maker is evil. (i.e. The elven gods are powerful fade spirits, the forgotten ones are demon lieutenants of the Maker, and the Elven gods helped trapped them all in the fade) i feel like there should be some fact or assumption between Elven God and Fade Spirit. a missing link or something that would help me better understand. Kaspar Sinclair (talk) 11:58, May 30, 2014 (UTC)

Eh, it's merely a hypothesis, some of the stuff in that don't make sense, but it's just speculative as to what if it is evil. For all we know it could actually be benevolent. And the elven gods thing? It also con sited of them elven people and dwarves that imprisoned him. Anyways, add to it! I never intended it to be firm and critiqued only. You can add to it, and change it below :D. What's your theory! It's pure speculation. Something that's not true whatsoever lols, but i do think that some major figure in the universe that is revered is/was evil. 12:04, May 30, 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to kill you some day :D I sat here for half an hour trying to link bits and pieces together, trying to recall some forgotten lore, or previously explored theory. Trying to connect the "Elven Gods" dot, to the "Maker" dot, to the "Andraste" dot, to the "creation of the Chantry" dot, to the "Exalted Marches on the Dales" dot. and then being confused because the "Dwarvf" dot didn't connect to any of those. +_+. shoulda said something ages and ages ago and saved me the time :D

If we start from the basis that the Maker is evil. but what we know of the Maker is true. that;

A)he supposedly came to Andraste in a dream and guided her as she liberated Thedas from the influence of the Tevinter Imperium

B)He is now missing and will only return once the Chant of Light is sung from all corners of the world.

C)He lived in the golden city that was now turned black when the Tevinter Imperium invaded his Kingdom

D)He created the darkspawn to punish the Tevinter Imperium for their hubris.

Using these facts, and the assumption that the Maker is evil. Then i think the Maker just wants people to worship him. Because of A), the worship of the Maker, and the story that Andraste was the Maker's Bride spread like wild fire, it inflamed the passions of the people and as they got more momentum, more passions were inflamed. This is also supported by B). And because D), every single time there is a Blight, the people are united once more to fend off the darkspawn. And in their unity, piety becomes paramount. In fact, it was during one of the blights that the Orlesian Emperor Kordillus Drakon spread Chantry influence, establishing it as the massive religious order it is today and being Anointed for his efforts. See the pattern here? Something Bad happens (Tevinter IMperium in charge of the world), Maker comes (Andraste), Maker is praised. Something bad happens (First Blight), Maker Comes (Kordillus Drakon spreads his influence), Maker is praised (creation of the modern day Chantry). Kaspar Sinclair (talk) 12:26, May 30, 2014 (UTC)

Good one :D, in that regards i wanna know more about Drakon's conquest/rise 21:22, May 30, 2014 (UTC)

To me I think the Chantry is completely bullshit I mean they started out with the right idea to let others know of the Maker but now they are just power hungry zealots. The Elves of the Dales didn't want to worship the Maker because Andraste helped free them of from the tyranny that is the Tevinter Imperium so they could get back what they had lost so the Chantry decides to attack the Dales in the first exalted march and then they decided that all references to the elves helping Andraste was stricken from the Chant of Light and put in to the dissonant verses (which is where they put everything that does not agree with what they decide is what the Maker wants) and then the Qunari wants to spread order that is the Qun the Chantry sees this as heresy and decides "lets attack them too!" Basically anything that makes the Chantry look bad they try to cover up or try to attack it (exalted marches) and the Chantry fears magic so they corrupt Andraste's belief that "magic is to serve man, not rule him." as a way to strike fear of magic in to everyone so that people readily believe that any mage may just randomly start slashing their wrists and summoning demons. I don't believe this is what the Maker wants... WardenMaster (talk) 00:51, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

Eh, they did what they thought was necessary. To them, the Maker came and freed the elves through his bride Andraste, and once freed, the Elves were so disrespectful, completely ignoring their saviour and worshipped their own gods over the one that actually saved them. It's in the chant of light that their God, the Maker, will return when the Chant is sung from all corners of the world. So, the Elves spat on the God who actually saved them, and the Chant compelled the Chantry to spread their beliefs, and since the Elves would not worship the Maker, one they should be grateful to, they were destroyed. And yes, People should fear Magic. They were fighting against the Tevinter Imperium at the time, the biggest empire on earth, and they needed Divine Intervention to "succeed". Without the Chantry, without the Qunari, there's no reason to believe otherwise that the entirety of Thedas wouldn't resemble the modern Tevinter Imperium. Where slaves are legally bought and sold, and blood magic is practised in silence. Kaspar Sinclair (talk) 01:03, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

It's unclear who started the first Exalted March (Dalish say humans, Chantry says Dalish), but the Qunari definitely attacked the Chantry (and the rest of Thedas) first. Silver Warden (talk) 03:37, June 14, 2014 (UTC)