So, all actual skill trees and classes aside, would it be possible for there to be a mage who became a Templar? Since Templars almost use a form of magic themselves and mages also have spells to cleanse/ dispel, would the mage be able to perform a Templar's duties? Assuming they would ever let a mage in to begin with, let alone watch over themselves... Lot of stipulations off the bat! 70.113.17.183 (talk) 05:56, April 8, 2014 (UTC)saltrose
Oh my god, yes! this is actually my solution the entire mage/templar war bulls*. Let the mages reform the circle, have half of them loyal to the chantry and be educated in the dangers of blood magic and demon possession, and have them trained to combat these threats. This would effectively render the Templar organisation obsolete (which they are now anyway after the events of asunder), and let these new templar mages be the military arm of the Chantry. I believe this would promote a positive attitude towards mages, and rebrand their image not as crazed ticking time bombs waiting to explode into a demon, but the representatives of justice and the Chantry's mercy. And if there is another Uldrid rebellion, or the white spire rebellion, let the mages sort that s* out. Kaspar Sinclair (talk) 06:06, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
- Some might say the Chantry doesn't really care about the mages. They need Thedas to fear them so they'd be reliant on templars, who is controlled by the Chantry thus giving the Chantry what they really want: absolute political power over all of Thedas. It'd be nice if the Circle could police their own, even if it's just inside the fortress. That'd be a step up.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 06:19, April 8, 2014 (UTC))
- and those people would be wrong. Yes, some people within the chantry do not care for the well being of mages. but some do. most notably the new Divine Justina V. Personally, if possible, i would turn the entire circles of Thedas into a DA equivalent of Jedis. Yes, they are born with power, but that power also burdens them with the duty and responsibility to protect those they are charged with. There have been many many accounts of mages being used in wars, but i think it is utterly disgusting that they are put back in their cages after said war. They should be treated with respect, the same status as the Chevaliers of Orlais, if i had anything to say about it. Kaspar Sinclair (talk) 07:02, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
- Yes... Divine Justinia V. What is it about grandmotherly religious figures that makes people so prone to trust and have faith in them? The Chantry was right at least to make all religious figures women, they seem to be the gender everyone is less suspicious of and can guilt trip everyone. Yes she helped the Circles escape Lambert. And now the Circles have decided to separate from the Chantry, meaning they've chosen to no longer answer to her. Would she still support the mages in their right to independence, or does she think that they need her telling them what to do? For all her support for the Circle, her motives are ambiguous at best, how do we know she has the best interests of the mages, of the Circles at heart? She's Orlesian, she may be playing them so that everyone comes to realize that with out the motherly Chantry keeping the peace, chaos would reign. The Chantry has no other moves except to support the Templars, and she even has her own faction of templars with in the rebelling templars who still want the Chantry in charge. In the end, the chantry has to support the Circle system. Mages will always be feared for using blood magic even if they can police themselves. She may care about reducing the risk of possession for mages, but does she care about the autonomy of the Circles? Control is more important to the Chantry than ideals. That's why templars are picked for their devotion rather than their moral center.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 07:22, April 8, 2014 (UTC))
- and those people would be wrong. Yes, some people within the chantry do not care for the well being of mages. but some do. most notably the new Divine Justina V. Personally, if possible, i would turn the entire circles of Thedas into a DA equivalent of Jedis. Yes, they are born with power, but that power also burdens them with the duty and responsibility to protect those they are charged with. There have been many many accounts of mages being used in wars, but i think it is utterly disgusting that they are put back in their cages after said war. They should be treated with respect, the same status as the Chevaliers of Orlais, if i had anything to say about it. Kaspar Sinclair (talk) 07:02, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
- Some might say the Chantry doesn't really care about the mages. They need Thedas to fear them so they'd be reliant on templars, who is controlled by the Chantry thus giving the Chantry what they really want: absolute political power over all of Thedas. It'd be nice if the Circle could police their own, even if it's just inside the fortress. That'd be a step up.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 06:19, April 8, 2014 (UTC))
- An entirely too simplistic and cynical view, which ignores too many factors. Firstly, many Divines are not old ladies, Beatrix III (the previous Divine) was elected in her 20s if I remember right. As for choosing the 'fairer sex', this again isn't relevant - this is because Andraste was a women, Thedas isn't a misogynistic society, men and women have equal rights in almost everything.
- As for a method of maintaining power, the Chantry could do this even without Mages. Just as the Tevinter Priesthood did, back before Andraste's march. Whether or not Mages are born innocent, there is a reason they're kept in Circles. And there is a reason why the Chantry doesn't need to spin this to the public, where even people like Avalane - a fair women, not particularly pro-Chantry (despite being married to a Templar), was cautious around Mages - noting Bethany's restraint. Tevinter proves what the Mages can do at their worst, and it's worse than anything non-Mages can dream. It's a case of a minority against majority, and in the Chantry's view keeping Mages in Circles is the kindest option. There's a whole lot worse they can do, do not forget.
- The Chantry also directly countermanded Knight Commander Meredith choice to put down the mage result, with the Rite of Annulment, not a politically advantageous move. Sure there have been plenty of power hungry Chantry priests, sure it's a politically influential institution - but to characterise every Divine, every priest in such a way is unfair, and simply wrong, but is a fact that allot of people think of all in politics - even to this day. Power isn't always an ends in it's own, it's usually the means. And unless you're thinking the Chantry doesn't believe in the Maker, it's broad ends are clear... Alexsau1991
(talk page) 01:45, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
- Sure "be greatful you're a well treated slave instead of a beaten slave because it could get a lot worse". "Because you are the minority you don't deserve a say." Why do people think this is a good argument? Why don't the mages just turn to blood magic and enslave everyone then if it's might makes right? Who decided that only the mundanes are allowed to enjoy and thrive in the world of Thedas while all the mages suffer? Mages are blessed from the Maker with magic, does that mean they have the right use their magic to force everyone into submission? Justice shouldn't be decided by how many people agree with an unjust notion, or be judge by what a person can do. That's hybris and used to degrade people into submission. The Circles weren't created by the Maker. There's no "every mage should be locked up for the rest of their life and forced into a life of compliance" in the Chant, that is a product of people using fear to manipulate people. And Aveline could be just as fallible as Divines. These people do not speak for the Maker, they're just normal people, who have no right to judge anyone. You say it's unfair to judge the Divine by a few bad apples in the Chantry but every mage is judged because of what Tevinter does. Where's the justice in that?
- then let mages be judged for their potential to condemn themselves and those around them. I point to the examples of the Ferledan Circle in Origins, the actions of Anders in DA2 and the corruption within the Tevinter Imperium. Those things CAN happen. crying about how mages are mistreated doesn't change the fact that those things CAN and WILL happen if magic is not properly regulated and controlled. Do you think a "sorry" is going to smooth things over when a sister is murdered because her mage brother wasn't careful, or worse, possessed by a demon. Demon possession does happen. Uldred almost obliterated the entire Fereldan Circle single handedly under the influence of a single demon. Do not claim mages are the victims, that they deserve independence and autonomy, they are a danger to themselves, and worse, to others. Even knights and mercenaries answer to a captain and a lord. Mages need to be taught to control, discipline, and obedience, just like any soldier trusted with wielding a weapon. Kaspar Sinclair (talk) 00:50, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
- "Do not claim mages are the victims, that they deserve independence and autonomy, they are a danger to themselves, and worse, to others. " You might as well say people don't deserve dignity. "Mages need to be taught to control, discipline, and obedience, just like any soldier trusted with wielding a weapon." You can teach a person control, discipline but I know not a way to teach a person "obedience". Many facists have tried. Either a person is trully loyal to a person or not. Most often its because that person has earned trust. But to teach a person obedience means to be a tyrant and as Aldenon says, "Tyrants always fall, and the downtrodden always strive for freedom!”(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 05:26, April 10, 2014 (UTC))
- Granted, the templar treatment of mages can at times, and with unfortunate frequency, can be brutal. and something should be done about it. But abolishing the Circle system is wrong. Mages, without a doubt, are ticking time bombs. The harrowing process is a necessity. The Tranquility is a necessity. Obedience is doing what you're told, a soldier will do as his captain commands it, and the captain is given orders by his liege lord. So too should mage apprentices be beholden to their seniors, and they be under the watchful eye of the chantry's representatives, those trained to deal with worst case scenarios like what happened at the Fereldan Circle. So spare me your persecution complex, better mages be managed rather than let fear and chaos ensue with mages succumbing to demonic possession, or blood mages running unchecked. Kaspar Sinclair (talk) 12:37, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
- Well I suppose you can't reason with a monster.You know who also learns obedience? Slaves. And blood mages can just as easily teach it to templars and the Chantry. A templar is just a pink man in a metal suit. Mages have the power of the cosmos in their fingertips. Boil people's blood alive, haunt their dreams, summon dragons. And they look just like everyone else. It was their power that defeated the Qunari, the elves, and there's nothing like persecution to bring them all together.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 12:53, April 10, 2014 (UTC))
- Exacly that's why mages are feared. It's incredibly hard to trust someone with power of killing and destroying with a single thought. Qunari weren't defeated, wars with them were ended by a draw. Circle mages aren't slaves, even Gaider says this. If you say obidience is enslavement, then parents are slavers to their children. Disobidience leads to chaos and lost battles. Mages are as easy to decieve and fool as everyone else, proper manipulations can easily lead to discord among them, so they could turn on each other. The best victory is achieved by enemies destroying each other.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 15:19, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
- Well I suppose you can't reason with a monster.You know who also learns obedience? Slaves. And blood mages can just as easily teach it to templars and the Chantry. A templar is just a pink man in a metal suit. Mages have the power of the cosmos in their fingertips. Boil people's blood alive, haunt their dreams, summon dragons. And they look just like everyone else. It was their power that defeated the Qunari, the elves, and there's nothing like persecution to bring them all together.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 12:53, April 10, 2014 (UTC))
""The Chantry also directly countermanded Knight Commander Meredith choice to put down the mage result, with the Rite of Annulment, not a politically advantageous move." That is a political advantageous move. Without a Circle, there's no need for Templars, and if the Chantry doesn't have the fear of mages to incite among the populace of Kirkwall, the Chantry looses their leverage on the Kirkwal governing policies. How do you think the Chantry ruled through the weak Viscount and Meredith all these years? "Thedas isn't a misogynistic society, men and women have equal rights in almost everything." Except for being a Divine and part of the chantry clergy I guess..(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 02:15, April 9, 2014 (UTC))
Arcane Warrior + Spirit spells (Dragon Age II) = Magical Templar. Mages already have a little bit of magical resistance if they are strong so people like mage Hawke can will themselves out of blood magic mindcontrol. How powerful the spells they can cast on an opponent mage depends on what role they can serve. Arcane Warriors seem to be on the defensive guardian side drawing threat while mages with stong AOE spells or Crushing Prison (Dragon Age II) can be good damagers but glass cannons. Naturally like Templars, its best to take on Maleficarum as a group as they can summon demons for back up. But one mage who is strong can probably go toe to toe against a regular mage. Magisters duel each other all the time.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 06:13, April 8, 2014 (UTC))
- I think you missed the point of the discussion. We're discussing the lore implications, not the game mechanics or practical combat tactics of Templar Mages. Kaspar Sinclair (talk) 07:02, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
For the lore, I'd say it's complicated. In the lore mages don't have direct control over their powers initially. That's what causes them to have issues like Redcliffe, or Wynne burning that child's hair when she was younger, or the apprentice who couldn't light a camp fire without setting himself on fire. They're plagued by demons nearly constantly, and they need total control over their powers which apparently can take a decade or so judging by the ages of children brought to the tower and the ages of the people who look like their in their yearly to mid 20's still wearing apprentice robes. Becoming a Templar is also rather tough as you've got to train the body and mind. You've got to have a certain level of discipline and physical strength. They're trained not just in combat but also hunting and tracking mages, how to spot potential problems, confronting demons etc etc. It appears (to me at least) each occupation requires your full attention in order to master. And not exactly a lore reason, but typically mages don't wear full plate because magic requires the subtle use of the hands, which heavy plate would hinder, could cause adverse effects. So in conclusion.... MAYBE? but the work would hardly be worth the reward. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 13:46, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
"would it be possible for there to be a mage who became a Templar?" Yes. Being a Templar is, in my opinion, more of a job and way of thinking than anything else. In game mechanics it's an actual class with specific talents because that's how games work, but I see no reason why in the universe at large, a mage couldn't take part in their duties, and do the same things, and be considered a Templar. Whether or not that mage would be accepted is another matter, but technically nothing is stopping them from hunting other mages. Fighting fire with fire, as it were. 67.61.234.198 (talk) 15:05, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
I've been wondering this myself; let the mages govern their own, and reduce the role of the Templars. I've always advocated for a university system where they can graduate if they have passed, but others who fail stay on, and have phylacteries to track any rogues. But back on topic, I love the idea of a mage-templar. But will it come about? It'll be hard. Or we could model it on the tevinter system without the whole patronage system, and the mages controlling everything-thing XD. Reduce the role of the templars, or better yet, work with them. Merely my own opinion, but interesting topic. ----Lazare326 (talk)>
My female elf mage is what I call an anti-mage. She's not a Templar in the true sense of the word though. She is an Arcane Warrior as well, but it's not the same. But she is a Chantry Loyalist and a zealot. She hopes to hunt apostates and blood mages alongside the Templars some day. She deals in anti-magic, healing, party buffs, and enemy debuffs/roots. Believe it! (talk) 18:15, April 9, 2014 (UTC)